Qatar Airways...Do Not Believe The Hype

[otfsne]

I work on the frontline for Qatar Airways and what is happening is so unsafe, unethical and unacceptable it is an understatement to call it a Crisis!!

Some examples…..

Crews operating a 5 hour sector into one of the worlds most demanding airports Katmandhu on a turnaround basis in the height of the monsoon season.

Crews operating Trivandrum turnaround, again not far off 5 hours each sector in the height of the monsoon season with a reporting time of midnight.

Crewmembers rostered to operate these sorts of duties 4 to 5 times a month.

Legal days off now given down route with crews spending no more than 4 – 5 days a month at home in Doha with their families.

Flight Crew Limitations recently amended to make crews work even harder

Crew fatigue now at dangerous levels with these inhuman rosters

A320 flights recently operated by 3 cabin crew

A300 flights with full loads now being operated with 6 cabin crew

Engineering problems due to lack of spare parts

Staff leaving by the dozen, the majority due to extreme company dissatisfaction

Call this an airline!! It’s a disgrace and believe me I could go on…this is just the top of the iceberg!!!!

The problem is not the Qatari’s (good people), not Doha, not the staff, the problem is Akbar Al Baker, I know it, the staff knows it, Lufthansa know it…..

Mr Al Baker…. Success is not buying a lot of shiny new airplanes and opening lots of new routes with other peoples money, this anybody can do…success is having those Airbus full of high yield passengers, being operated by motivated, loyal, and rested crewmembers and at this you have failed Qatar Airways miserably, it is constructive criticism but then again you do not like that either.

In the wake of 9/11 with thousands of aviation professionals seeking employment, staffing is at crisis levels at Qatar Airways…!!!!

Unfortunately the way it going its only a matter of time before one comes down and comes down hard, wonder will you be so interesred to call it ‘My Airline’ when that happens.

Qatar Airways….do not believe the hype, its so Third World it aint true!

[A300Man]

Hi There,

Please contact me via private messaging, if you don't mind. I am EXTREMELY, EXTREMELY concerned about some of your comments. In particular, operating the aircraft with 3 and 6 cabin crew respectively. I do not know of ANY situation where an A300 has gone out with six crew and an A320 with 3 crew.

However, depsite this, those figures in itself are not ILLEGAL, depending on the pax headcount on those flights. Despite not being illegal though, it is certainly very UNFAIR and leads to demotivation and poor morale.

I note that you are posting from Angola.............surely you are not on the Qatar front line in Angola? It would help to know what you actually do at QR. From your posting, I beleive you are a pilot.

Welcome anyway to the forum and I look froward to hearing from you.


A300Man

[kenoco]

First of all people I did not write this,and I don't know who did but isn't it a doozy.MTQatar,A300Man,Doha take note,we are not bitter people just very concerned.Qatar Airways is a mess and the crew are very worried.All the above is very very true and God forbid should something bad happen,see I have lots of good friends in Doha and everyone of them has plans to leave very soon cause sadly things have gotten totally out of hand.I often wonder if the pax that fly with QR actually know the risks that could be involved.I think its only goin to be a matter of time before the CAA get involved.Guys if you really need to know whats goin on in QR ask the crew who's office is at 35000ft not on the ground.Ita a pity cause with a good CEO the company could have a lot of potential.Ciao.

[Lodestar]

Should I be worried now???

I know that when there is smoke the fire can not be far away but hey, isnt this a little too much?

I mean, what is the problem with flying an A320 with three cabin crew members? I used to fly for Sabena and there it was standard to fly with three CCm on an A320....Only when it was a short flight or when there where a lot of business pax than we would have an extra crewmember on board...

Legally you need 1 ccm/50 pax with a minimum of one CCM per door that is active.....this meaning that three on an A320 and 6 on the A300 is absolutely legal and considered safe by the CAA

5hours sectors on a turnaround basis in a demanding airport......done all over the world!

Reporting for these duties at midnight....done all over the world!

On the other hand I think that the staff leaving by dozens, adjustments to duty times and sheduling off days on a stopover are very very very dangerous things to do as an airline!!!!
These are the fastest measures to demotivate your personnel and that is the last thing you want to have happening in an airline that is growing this fast...

Growing is one thing, staying safe is another!! And a succesfull growth can only be achieved by motivated staff and personnel....


Please keep these comments going.....a lot of this forums members are in the hiring process of QR so all info is most wellcome....

[flatcherokee]

I am so glad this forum has realised the safety implications. People, don't get me wrong but we must have healthy debates to protect the safety of ourselves, staff and pax.

I was shocked to hear that at a recent meeting, the GM commerical had brushed aside GM flt ops concern of increasing flights to Katmandu. GM flt ops - rightly so had pointed out that anything more than 7 flts is risky.

After all EK decided not to fly at all, GF reduced flights. But what had this convoluted commercial GM say.... train more pilots on a simulator and fly 14 flts a week from next year. One manager said that he is only interested in showing pax load factors at any cost to save his job.

But the jest of it... he is related to AAB.. so his job is safe even if an accident happens.

God bless all of you at QR. Hope we can put all this right and make this a truly great airline (without AAB and his B-I-L)!!!!

[status]

...............Flying 5 hr a piece turnarounds in one duty cylcle is bad. To a demanding airport like KTM is an even bigger disaster and that too in the monsoon. God save QR.

[Lodestar]

I honestly do not see the point here.....

What is more demanding on this flight than a 6 stretches, 14Hrs charter duty flying in Europe to all these little islands with 1500m of rwy and ending your day in a demanding airport like CDG!!!!
Duty starting at 2 o clock in the morning and ending at 20Hrs after all the paperwork...

Arent you being a little spoilled here? Sure, it is not an easy flight but do not make an elephant out of a mouse here....

[kenoco]

yeah guys,as somebody said safety should be the main concern,so the problem is in QR is that even with only the bare minimum crew AAB expects the excellent onboard service to be the same,and really the CEO's main priority is high service standards,which the excellent crew at QR give every time,but to achieve this with minimum crew the safety concerns always seem to take a back seat,most of the crew in QR are well trained and great at their jobs but isn't it scary when the crew are more worried about how to correctly place a tray on a table,or if they have served the tea correctly than they are about SEP,because in QR if you make a mistake onboard during the service and its noticed by the wrong person you could be demoted pronto,but if you are abit vague about ftl,equipement locations,first-aid etc the repercussions in QR head office are not as dawnting.Keep up the good work QR flight,cabin crew.

[pontius's pa]

I'm sort of inclined to support Lodestar here.

QR DCAM has adopted JARs and called them QCARs

Not the sort of book I have at home where my computer is so cannot check min cabin crew requirements.

UK regs if I recall correctly requires one CA per 50 pax, minimum one CA for 20 pax and/or one per operational pax door. JARS must be similar.

2x5hr sector +plus 1hr check in +say 2hr turnround a bit long, but obviously legal otherwise could not be rostered. Even QR has a FTL scheme.

[kenoco]

More "info" from Qatar will be following very shortly,ppruners in Doha take care who you talk to,the CEO's feathers have been really ruffled,safety is our primary concern.

[A300Man]

I have done some serious checking here. There have been absolutely NO instances where a Qr A300 has gone out with only 6 cabin crew.

I know that all is not entirely well at the place, but the above is rather a serious accusation. Could you eprhaps elaborate on the exact flight number and date?

[Mister Geezer]

Does this all mean that QR will take meagre low hours Frozen ATPL's with no Airbus time like me???? :) :) (Joke Intended)

It might sound very desperate but I would give my right leg to work for QR. I will admit that I would not be able to appreciate the fatigue aspect but I am sure if QR opened its recruitment to non rated pilots with low hours - I feel that its Flight Crew shortage would be a thing of the past.

Loads of hours and demanding flying is the stuff that I and some of my fellow low hours colleagues dream of. A320 operating a DOH-KTM-DOH with night report time... don't say any more or I will be foaming at the mouth. ;)

MG

[MTQatar]

Crews operating a 5 hour sector into one of the worlds most demanding airports Katmandhu on a turnaround basis in the height of the monsoon season.

Cabin Crew temporarly yes but Flight Deck Crew are not flying turn around. It is also perfectly legal. All the Cabin Crew that do the turnaround flights to KTM and TRV also got QR250 bonuses.

Crews operating Trivandrum turnaround, again not far off 5 hours each sector in the height of the monsoon season with a reporting time of midnight.

Same as above.

Crewmembers rostered to operate these sorts of duties 4 to 5 times a month.

Legal days off now given down route with crews spending no more than 4 - 5 days a month at home in Doha with their families.

On average 8 days are given of in Doha every month but some get 9 or 10 days.

Flight Crew Limitations recently amended to make crews work even harder

The amendments were actually made to make the local regulatory law similar to that of other regulatory authorities around the world

Crew fatigue now at dangerous levels with these inhuman rosters

That is also not true, I have seen the rostering computer database where you can see the rosters of all the Crew. They rostering was very good in my opinion with many off days, and plenty of time between flights to rest. Thought it is true that crews were given some days

A320 flights recently operated by 3 cabin crew

First of all this is legal and second of all it never happened. QR has 6 flight attendants as standard on their A320's for 144 passengers and with he recent expansion some flights leave with 5 flight attendants (similar to GF) and the lowest number of F/A's on the A320's was 4 and it was mainly on short flights.

A300 flights with full loads now being operated with 6 cabin crew

Same as above, the smallest number of F/A's on QR's A300 was 8 but normally they are 11 (IIRC). This is only temporary untill more crew come online.

Staff leaving by the dozen, the majority due to extreme company dissatisfaction

Cabin Crew Turnonver percentage wise is actually the same number as that at Emirates and is less than that of Gulf Air.

The problem is not the Qatari's (good people), not Doha, not the staff, the problem is Akbar Al Baker, I know it, the staff knows it, Lufthansa know it.....

The Lufthansa Audit found out few short comings on QR's side. One of these is that QR doesn't have an Emergency Response Center (since QR are using EK's center) and some other issues regarding certain members in management (not Al-Baker thos of you who really know about this will understand who I am talking about). The issues are being addressed with Lufthansa Consultants and you'll soon see the codeshare re-instated.

otfsne,

These are serious accusations that you are making and if you don't have any proof please refrain from doing this again as this can be considered slander.

flatcherokee

After all EK decided not to fly at all, GF reduced flights. But what had this convoluted commercial GM say.... train more pilots on a simulator and fly 14 flts a week from next year. One manager said that he is only interested in showing pax load factors at any cost to save his job.

You are trying to imply that this current GM was the one who proposed doubling frequency into KTM. The first time I heard of QR's intention to double frequency was in 2000 when neither Lee Shave nor Mr. Fathi were GM Commercials. Also the frequency was doubled during the reign of Lee Shave and is actually only 11x week now due to ASA limitations.

You also mentioned that anything more than 7x frequencies is risky I disagree. Previously the A300-600R was needed to cope with the demand, the A300-600R is larger, heavier and is less suited for KTM operations than the A320 (at least from what I have been told) and if god forbid something happened more than 250 people could die in this crash. With the increase of flights you can use the A320 but still be able to cope with demand, and if anything should happen a max. of 152 people would be on board lowering risk of more deaths.

[mutt]

MTQatar,

the A300-600R is larger, heavier and is less suited for KTM operations than the A320 (at least from what I have been told) and if god forbid something happened more than 250 people could die in this crash. With the increase of flights you can use the A320 but still be able to cope with demand, and if anything should happen a max. of 152 people would be on board lowering risk of more deaths.

I suppose thats one way of looking at things, but personally i would prefer that an airline tried to deliver ALL of their passengers to their destination ALIVE!

If QR believe that KTM is too demanding, then they shouldn't operate in there!

Mutt.

[MTQatar]

Mutt,

Of course no one would prefer deaths I was just trying to counter flatcherokee's argument that increasing frequencies will increase risks.

KTM maybe a risky airport but if it is as risky as some people try to make it to be then why are airlines still allowed to operate there and also what about other airlines operating to KTM if it is so unsafe why did you have SQ, TG or GF operating there?

[kenoco]

It must have taken you ages to type all that info but MTQ not all your facts are entirely correct,to compare QR staff shortage to EK is a joke,how many people due you know that have actually left EK to join QR,I'll tell you--NONE,but the other side is that many people have left QR and applied to EK,and its still happining at this time.The percentage of crew leaving QR is very very high,for example of the origional group of 18 who trained with me,only TWO remain,and 10 of those people had the same reason for leaving,you don't need to be Einstein to figure that out.MTQATAR your intentions may be good but the people who know about the crewing problems,the massive crew turnover,and the low morale are the CREW themselves.Whenever we mention "CREW" we always seem to touch a nerve.MTQATAR maybe you might know this,is it true that AAB has had talks with management and the CID about trying to catch crew in Doha badmouthing QR on the internet,apparently now its illegal to badmouth QR in public,or is this just a rumour?????A bit paranoid,don't you think??? xx C.

[MTQatar]

Ken,

I have not said anywhere in my post that Emirates crew are going to QR (it is actually not possible due to the no poach agreements both airlines have). What I said was that the monthly crew turnover on percentage basis of total crew in QR is equal to that of EK which is according to company statistics I have gotten hold of. The figures may not be accurate but let me assure you that they are from First hand sources.

[Camel_Cowboy]

Hi All,

MT, I tend to agree with you on most things, however not with the subject to do with the risks of losing an aircraft. It doesnt matter whether you are using a 747 or a BN Islandhopper, the risk of an accident occurring is statistically greater if you operate into an airport more frequently than other airlines. If you are operating an A320 into KTM twice a day opposed to an A300 once a day, there is a greater chance you will lose an A 320, than an A300. If you want to delve deeper into probability, in theory you would lose 2 A320s for every 1 A300. It's that simple. God forbid the occurance of any accident of course.

Now that that is cleared up, if it was too dangerous to operate into KTM, no airlines would. No airline will operate into an airport if there is a high chance they will lose an aircraft. Look at the old Kai Tak airport. As wanderful as it was, it was a relatively dangerous airport to operate into. Surrounded by high terrain, extremely close to buildings and an awkward arc approach. Weather could change in an instant and yet the airport was flooded with traffic. Movements with aircraft the size of 747s every few minutes, swinging round onto final at extremely close proximity to buildings and at slow speed. Now compare that with KTM. They both had/have their risks, except none were/are seen serious enough to cause loss of life. Therefore the airlines continue to fly there. It is not like QR are using the same crew for all 4 legs on the twice daily trips. They have fresh crew for every run. They are taking the time to give crews extra sim training to keep them in perfect practice for all situations that may arise when operating to and from the airport.

I should also add that have any of you looked into the major accidents that have occured in close proximity to the airport? Most likely cause was controlled flight into terrain. Now, you ask, were the pilots trained sufficiently enough to operate there on a regular basis and in all sorts of conditions? Were the crews kept under close scruitiny in the sim to make sure they remain in practice. By looking into past accidents around KTM, you may find that it is not the airport itself that has given it a dangerous reputation, but the pilots who were flying the aircraft that were lost.

I honestly don't see what the fuss is about. I can tell you this, QR would not risk losing an aircraft. Losing an aircraft means loss of pax and a good reputation. No airline wants to do that, and with the attitude of QR, they definately dont want to do that.

Cheers

CC

[MTQatar]

Camel_Cowboy,

You do make some valid points, if I really think about it I actually see that my logic regarding the statistics of a crash happening was wrong. I still stand by my statement (which you agree with) that if KTM is really unsafe you'd never see any airline flying there.

As long as QR meet all legal requirements set by the regulatory authorities for operation into KTM then I see no problem in continuing to fly there.

[Mister Geezer]

A high proportion of accidents in the KTM area are (as has already been mentioned) CFIT related. However most of the accidents that I see hitting the aviation press are linked to small Nepalese operators that operate commuter sized aircraft.

Such aircraft may not have:

• EFIS/FMS
• EGPWS
• Terrain mapping on the ND (or EHSI!) - not too sure if QR have this on their A320s but I have seen it with other operators.

Looking at those stats above, the odds will dictate that operating an Airbus into KTM is safer than for example a Twin Otter.

However I must take my hat off to Necon Air in Nepal. I flew as a pax in one of their Hs748s back in Spring 2000. The flight deck 'curtain' was open and I was sitting at the front and nearly jumped out of my seat when I heard 'TRAFFIC TRAFFIC' being barked out! Not due to the close proximity of another aircraft, but I was astonished to see a third world commuter operator making the effort to equip its fleet with TCAS.

MG

[flatcherokee]

MT,

I read with interest your last few postings.

First, it was not me who said operating to KTM more than 7 times a week is dangerous but it was our own flt ops dept.

Secondly, your are correct about past commercial GMs planning to operate more than 7 flts. But I was told by someone who atteneded a particular meeting in commerical, how the current GM commercial disregarded the safety concerns of GM flt ops.

Thirdly, GM commercial is mohammed saleh fakhri and not fathi as you have mentioned.

I work for Qr and feel that we must continue to challenge and discuss such issues for the better of QR and the people of Qatar as a whole. Sadly QR has become the subject of jokes in the industry as a result of high staff turnover, poor management structure and very very low morale and staff loyalty.

I was at Qr towers yesterday and was not surpised not hear that another manager in commercial resigned as a result of the new GM. The morale within the whole airline is doing, moreso in commercial, cabin crew and flt ops.

I think u work for AAB, hence all the defensive emails. But please try to be more realistic and also listen to the people who has to fly to KTM (like us) and do a very stressful and demanding approach safely.

Have you flown a A320 or an A300 to KTM? Have you been in the cockpit on approach to KTM? I don't think so...

People of Qatar deserve a better managed airline and a management to be proud of, after all QR is the national carrier.



cheers

[MTQatar]

Sorry for the mistake in the name of Fathi/Fakhri as I always mix these names up since we have a Fathi working for us, and second of all I don't work for QR or AAB and have never worked with QR in the past neither under AAB or HAT.

Have you flown a A320 or an A300 to KTM? Have you been in the cockpit on approach to KTM? I don't think so...

No I haven't as I am not a pilot and never will pursue that proffesion.

What I am trying to do is provide the people here in PPRuNe with a balanced view of QR. Some people like you take one side of the story and I take another. Also with constant rantings on low morale I am in contact with employees working as Pilots as well as those in QR Tower and from what they say it is the opposite. I guess everything is in the eye of the beholder. If you yourself suffer from low morale then you will probably have perception that others within the company are suffering from low morale too.

Last point, you say that you work for QR. If you are that dissatisfied with company why don't you do yourself a favour, pack your bags and leave the company.

People of Qatar deserve a better managed airline and a management to be proud of, after all QR is the national carrier.

Are you Qatari? I as a Qatari am very proud of my airline and am very proud of the achievements of the management

Lastly, on the subject of safety in operating flights to KTM. If it is that big of a problem why haven't any regulatory authorities stepped in? I think CC gave a great example in the old Kai Tak airport which had a lot of aircraft movements but had a very challenging approach. You even had B747-400's and fully laden B747F take of and land there.

[Lodestar]

Flat Cherokee,

Just to confirm that MT_Qatar is NOT working for AAB! He is not even working for QR.

I guess we will meet in the near future.....

Regards

[taba]

As usual, been reading with interest.

I recently attended an interview in UK and one of the candidates was a CSD for QR. She joined QR as I left.

She confirmed many things that myself, Gulf Crew, Aviator Girl and co have been trying to get across...It is a wonderful place with some great people but the poisoned dwarf is mentally unstable.

I recall a flight pre departure in Doha when AAB stormed on board demanding to know from ME why the aircraft next to us was tech! His screaming alerted the then GMFO who was travelling with us to DXB...he was trying, in vain , to get him to calm down. This was in full view of pax! Professional...Nah!

MT and A300, we are not slating the wirline, we just wish someone would get rid of Hannibal and let the staff get on with the hard work they are never thanked for!

Rgards

Taba

[flatcherokee]

MT,

Would like to put things in perspctive here as you are going on a tangent!

Although I work for QR, I don't let the silly management bother me, so no need for me to pack my bags and besides that is my problem not yours!

I am rather surprised that you say staff are happy and morale is good, remind all of us again, who are these staff? AAB's a...s lickers I guess!

The truth is over 85% of the staff are unhappy and demoralised, whether you like it or not! If they are happy why such a huge staff turnover (crew as well as ground and H/O staff)

Since you are not a pilot, you will never ever understand the stress a pilot goes through on approach, leave alone KTM. So no point discussing this point with you any further.

Yes, I am a Qatari and I am ashamed of the management style, structure at QR. You don't work, so you cannot comment as to how happy you are with the mgmt.

All QR has is shiny new aircraft and a very good inflight service. BUT THIS GOOD INFLIGHT SERVICE IS NOT BECAUSE OF QR MANAGEMENTS VISION, LEADERSHIP OR STYLE BUT PURLEY BECAUSE OF DEDICATED GROUND AND CABIN CREW WHO WORKS VERY HARD INSPITE OF THE NORMAL ILL TREATMENT.

TAKE AWAY CABIN CREW'S HARD WORK.... ONLY SHINY NEW PLANES ON THE RAMP.

So if you are not working for QR you don't have a damn clue what is going on inside qr.

have a nice day

[kenoco]

FlatC.you speak with words of wisdom,its strange that MTQ.should say"if you not happy,then leave",well funny enough thats what I was told along with dozens of others and guess what,we all left,and unfortunately for a lot of other crew(inflight),thats not an option cause their circumstances back home are bad and they really need the job.Also the Qataris are a fine,proud people and they deserve a high quality national carrier to be really proud of but as already mentioned QR really is a last resort for many of its employees.QR really has the potential to challenge other large carriers in the area but one mans Hitler style management is stunting this growth,hence the huge number of crew flocking to EK.I really think if the airline industry in the west gets its feet back QR's staffing problems are really going to multiply.Its ok to have a heavy handed management style in the low-fares secter,like in Europe as the standards are very low but in a modern International Longhaul airline that style just does not work,and QR is proof of that.Maybe things might change in the future.I have more info on the way very soon.Take Care All.

[denbatty33]

Well said FC. You hit the nail on the head.

If QR is to be a true international airline, we need to get rid of the following:

1. CEO
2. GMC
3. Manager yield management
4.Parvez dubash
5. assadullah

Then we all Qataris can be proud.

MT you cannot comment as you do not work for us!

[Lodestar]

What is wrong with Dubash?

Anyway, from the guys that I know who are flying at QR (as pilots) things are not as bad as they seem! They all say that life as a pilot is rather easy compared to what we are used in Europe and above that te pay is good!

On the other side they all say that life as cabin crew is really really hard and nothing to be jealous about!

Would it be possible to make a difference here between cabin and cockpit crew ? That would allow me to have a better picture of the company...

Thanks

[A300Man]

All of the above is very interesting. However, some of you seem rather more content in correcting others on minor spelling issues rather than concentrating on the matter in hand.

I have been travelling and hence absent from the forum for a few weeks. Nice to see that nothing changes.

Has this thread perhaps run its course Mod?

[kenoco]

A300Man, the truth is out there,the bad news just keeps on comin,by the way you seem to be a man with contacts,ahh just like moi,any news on a decompression in QR near Belgrade last year where at least half O2 masks didn,t work??Is this true or not do ya think??????We all missed you nice man.

[A300Man]

There was a decompression. All the masks did work though. For sure. Were you on the flight?

[kenoco]

Hello A300Man,no luckily I wasn,t on that flight origonally bound for Munich,and I say luckily because there was a decompression and your details are very wrong again because at least half of all O2 masks onboard did NOT operate correctly,I spoke to several persons on that flight and they all confirmed the problems.I even spoke to the Flight crew and they confirmed my worries.Several of the crew on that flight were very ill,hypoxia,and all of the crew stayed on the airplane all night,but that really wasn't QR fault,even so the CEO tried to make the crew operate another flight asap,with no regard to sickness or fatigue.A300Man its good to hear from you but could you not check your facts a bit more better nect time,by the way I live really do live in France,south coast,its beutifull.Thanks.