Qatar Airways - The Inevitable

[Palma de Mallorca]

I have been a silent participant on the PPrune Forum for quite a while now. I am based in Europe and am a journalist involved in the Aviation and Business Travel Industry.

When an incident occurs (such as accident, collision, etc......), there is bound to be a real interest and this is verified by the sheer volume of postees alongside the topic box.

However, as a silent observer, it is amazing to have watched the furore and general level of extreme interest that has been generated on the subject of Qatar Airways.

It would appear to me that there are two distinct camps in the Qatar topics - those who absolutely detest the company and its management (ex crew and those who have suffered there) and those who are total fanatics of the company and will not hear a bad word said (MT Qatar, A300Man and others).

However, you guys I am sure all have personal interests in the Company (A300Man - I don't believe your contentions that you are not employed by the Company. You just know too much) and will find it difficult to remain unaffected and non-biased in your comments.

And, I hear your questions, what's my point............?

My point is that Qatar Airways are clearly an organisation with a tremendous future and who are currently going through the most dramatic phase of its existence right now.

But you guys out there, you are all playing into the hands of the very man that you all speak so much about.......the CEO, Mr. Akbar Al-Baker.

He thrives on the type of furore and interest that he has generated. During recent discussions with him at Farnborough, he confirmed that he is well aware of forums such as this one and he finds it all quite hilarious. (his words, not mine).

And he is adamant that those former crew members whom maintain were so badly treated by him, would never (even today after leaving the company) tell him to his face what they really think of him.

So, where do you all go from here? And what is the point of beating the hell out of each other on this forum???

Is it really correct to disuade all those hopefuls who so much want to join the company and fly for a living???

Comments please.

[Gnadenburg]

Palma

You a pen for hire?

The proponents of Qatar have lacked a little eloquence in their rebuttle.Maybe you are the answer.

[Palma de Mallorca]

Thanks.

But, sadly, I am definately not for hire. I am quite content to spend the rest of my days here in Palma where there are "real" issues to report on a daily basis, involving approx. 120 carriers and operators who regularly glide into Son San Juan.

No disrespect to the Qatar Airways fanatics. It is ladies and gentlemen like them who have more of a role in the making or breaking of the Company and the (successful) impact that the airline has, than the dis-illusioned former staff who are trying to disuade individuals not to join.

And, shock, horror and calamity from above..........A300Man, I have just been chatting to another Qatar Airways fanatic who is based in Muscat. He has told me some very interesting news about you...............this forum will never be the same again, should you elect to change your allegiance!

Enough said.

[MTQatar]

Palma de Mallorca,

Welcome to PPRuNe. Me, A300Man and now you have been accused of being agents of QR's PR department.

And, shock, horror and calamity from above..........A300Man, I have just been chatting to another Qatar Airways fanatic who is based in Muscat. He has told me some very interesting news about you...............this forum will never be the same again, should you elect to change your allegiance!

???? I don't understand what you said here. Anyways could you please put me in contact with that person, I need help with something and I think that since he is a QR fan he might be able to help me.

[Palma de Mallorca]

My goodness. How incredibly offensive. (To be "accused" of operating on behalf of QR's PR department.........) I can assure you and everyone else, although I don't really care in all honesty, that I would not touch QR's PR Department with the proverbial barge pole.

This is not due to any disrespect for Qatar Airways or the people there, but I am very happy doing what I am doing and where I am doing it! (Make sense?)

Upon completion of assignment, I shall disappear from the forum quicker than a burgundy and white A340 into Libya.

Regarding my "man" in Muscat, sorry. No can do. She's / he's strictly off limits as far as this one is concerned. You may wish to e-mail me with your questions though and I can put them to her / him?

Incidentally, we frequently have your Amiri aircraft down here in Palma, but not for quite some time. I guess that perhaps you don't love us any more??

[4HolerPoler]

Palma,

You're more than welcome to put your two bob's worth in but please do not wind up the locals. Jorno's, as I'm sure that you are aware, are viewed with some suspicion.

Bear in mind the nature and purpose of this site, as clearly spelt out by it's title and we'll get on just fine.

4HP

[A300Man]

Palma de Mallorca.

Welcome to the Forum:-

1) Please see the Moderators comments above;

2) What exactly do you mean about me changing my allegiance? From whom to whom? Or from where to where?

3) I assure you that " I do not work for Qatar Airways".

4) I have just arrived in Doha on a flight from Dubai and was sitting thinking how much I was enjoying the onboard service on this 45 minute hop! I just received the most wonderful cabin service from the most attentive FA that I have ever met in my life. Guess which airline I was flying? But, small though Qatar Airways and Doha may be in comparison to the wonderful Son San Juan, we too have "real issues" to address out here. Palma isn't the centre of the aviation universe.

5) And finally........the pressures of the job as CEO of the World's most rapidly expanding airline must be taking its toll on Mr. Akbar Al-Baker's memory.......you may have a distinct recollection of the conversation that you had with him at Farnborough, but he certainly doesn't remember meeting you, nor does he recall anyone going out of their way at the worlds greatest air show to ask questions about the Pprune forum.

Not that I am in any way doubting you, but could you perhaps just shed a little more detail on the conversation in question and also on the remit of your assignment.

I am sure that my fellow regional Ppruners shall be only to glad to assist you in any way that we can.

With best regards from DOHA! Welcome once again.

[Riscy]

Palma de Mallorca

Qatar Airways - The Inevitable

I have wished that you stay silent. You said the wrong things about QTR.

I do not want to go into details cause you may not like it,

By the way u hate the CEO "Akbar", me too but I can say the same about many arab's including rulers, do you have the guts???

regards

[A300Man]

My my my Riscy.

Your tone has certainly changed from what it was a few weeks ago when you were providing all of us with detailed information which would have suggested that you were very much in the fold at Qatar Airways (the "777" story) and that you were close to the ongoing events within the company.

All that has certainly changed, since:-

= today you have stated (in a post under subject "Qatari Incident") that you are only one line away from God Akbar;

= in this post you have now stated that you "hate" Akbar and even all rulers??????? I AM confused!

= what details do you wish be kept silent so as to avoid damaging others??

Please do explain what exactly you mean. We are ALL waiting for your reply.

[Palma de Mallorca]

Dear Riscy,

I am sorry if I offended you or others. I perhaps over-stepped the mark when making my initial enquiry. I am new to the Middle East forum.

I don't really want to get into a deabte about you or me or any others having the "guts to hate people and say so".

However, if you have any interesting information about future events at Qatar or any inside info, I would of course be pleased to hear it.

Sorry once again for causing offence.

[A300Man]

Palma,

You have been trying to contact me? Cannot get back to you as message fails. Do you have alternative e-mail address?

Incidentally, I am not yet in Bahrain.......where did you get this info from anyway?

[ia1166]

I'm sorry, but i've had a wine or to. This thread is absolutly horse manure. A300 man are you akbar? or just so far up him that you can see out of his mouth. this forum is for pilots.

[gulf-crew]

Palma sorry to disappoint you but your wrong on one of those points I would certainly tell that little man (poor excuse for a man) exactly what I think of him, did then and will do it again.

ia1166 sorry is this forum just exclusive for pilots (dont think so matey)

[Mister Geezer]

Palma

Being someone who has spent some time on the 'island' during the past, your name caught me by surprise. Firstly, I am rather puzzled in thinking how much interest there would be from the average local reading his paper one morning with his 'Café con Leche and Ensaimada' and finding an article on Qatar Airways. Maybe your interest is purely personal, or are you an aviation correspondent? Do you write for a local or national paper? Anyway it is interesting that the never ending Qatar Airways debate has attracted the press!

I address this paragraph to all! Qatar Airways has and will continue to be a topic which is discussed to great lengths on PPRuNe. I am a great fan of Qatar Airways, and I would drop everything at a moments notice to fly for them. Since the days of 727s and 747s, they have vastly improved. They can and I sincerely hope that they become a world-wide brand name as well as staying profitable and at the same time, offering a superb service to the customer. I understand that QR has obviously been through some rocky times during the past and this is reflected in the various posts that we have all seen from mainly ex QR employees. What has been done can't be changed but I wish that we could look forward to QR's future instead of dwelling on the possible shortfalls during the past. Snackbar is obviously pleasing the right people otherwise he would of been shown the door. Negative comments will not achieve anything and since Snackbar's job security is out side our 'sphere of control', I don't see how us moaning will change anything in Doha. As the saying goes, It is a free world out there and if QR is not your cup of tea then don't join but unnecessary company bashing is never good to see on PPRuNe.

Finally, being a journo, I hope you can answer my question. Has the Qatari Royal family made any investment on the island or do they holiday there? Only asking since I have seen a few pictures of aircraft from the Amiri flight at PMI.

MG

[ia1166]

Listen fellas. any airline can proclaim to be the worlds fastest expanding airline if its government ploughs huge tracts of cash into it. frankly i hold BA or QANTAS in much higher regard. despite the worlds troubles these operatiopns have posted a small profit with completely transparent management and accounting practices. stop self glorification and see it for what it is.

[Mister Geezer]

ia1166

I seem to recall that BA had to lean on Mr Blair after 11 Sept. UK Government funding to help dampen out the effect of the big jump in insurance costs is, a classic example of this. I am sure BA's books are in a better state today because of that government funding!

MG

[CaptSnails]

Why is it every time a QR aircraft lands in Doha there are 6 lexus waiting on the ramp to pick up the Qataris on board? Are you a nation of VIP's?
As ia1166 said, wake up and smell the coffee.

[MTQatar]

ia1126 and CaptSnails,

From conception in 1993 untill 2000 Qatar Airways was a private entity, the government held no equity in the airlines and QR wasn't even the official carrier of Qatar. The honour went to Gulf Air instead.

The airline is owned by a group of private investors encompasing business men, Al-Thani's, and and insurance firm. In 2000 a 50% stake in the airline was sold to the government and QR was officially cristened the official flag carrier of Qatar. QR also had access to loan guarantees from the government.

QR still achieved remarkable mile-stones before government involvement especially after the 1997 restructuring.

Listen fellas. any airline can proclaim to be the worlds fastest expanding airline if its government ploughs huge tracts of cash into it.

As I said above QR does recieve subsidies in the form of loan gurantees and preferential treatment. QR claim to be one of the world fastest growing airlines (e.g. 65% increase in passenger figures in 1Q 2002 over 1Q 2001 !!!) but they admit that they are loss making and say that profitability will take around 5 years to achieve. Up to then it is the shareholders responsability to cover the losses.

completely transparent management and accounting practices

QF and BA need to have transparent accounting and management because they are not private companies. For example BMI doesn't release financial details to the public because they are a private entity and so don't have an obligation. QR is in the same position, QR plan to have an IPO by the end of the decade if they develop by the business plan and then they will release all financial records from inception upto the date of the IPO and continue to release details to the public after that. Now neither you are me have a right to access these records since they are for the shareholders to see.

Why is it every time a QR aircraft lands in Doha there are 6 lexus waiting on the ramp to pick up the Qataris on board? Are you a nation of VIP's?

First of all what you saw were BMW 7 series vehicles. The reason you see so many of these BMW's is because QR provide them for all of their First Class passengers regardless of race, religion, wealth or social status. VIP's and airport officials use the white BMW's and the QR F pax use the ones in the QR livery with the oryx logo.

The white BMW's are available for all Al-Thani's, government officials, foreign VIP's, celebrities, important guests, foreign diplomats, local prominent figures like religious leaders etc.... Also Airport officials like the director of the airport use these BMW's to commute within the airport grounds or to inspect incoming aircraft or ground facilities.

I seem to recall that BA had to lean on Mr Blair after 11 Sept. UK Government funding to help dampen out the effect of the big jump in insurance costs is, a classic example of this. I am sure BA's books are in a better state today because of that government funding!

Mister Geezer is right, in most parts of the world including Europe and the US many airlines had to rely on their governments for aid including loan guarantees which is the form of subsidies QR gets. This is because governments realise the airlines are an integral part of the engine that drives their economies. So if a major airline fails you will see less foreign business men investing, less tourists spending, less infrastructure to import/export goods, less awareness of a country internationalyy and worst of all lost jobs.

Gulf Air didn't employ many Qataris even pre-Qatar Airways. The majority of Gulf locals in GF were from Bahrain even though Qatar, Abu Dhabi, Bahrain and Oman have an equal share in the airline. Gulf Air didn't contribute it's fare share to the economy, GF didn't do much to market Qatar as a tourist destination, didn't do much to market Qatar as a whole.

Gulf Air also reduced a lot of their flights out of DOH and that didn't offer a lot of choice for Qatari's to travel. The airport facilities were severely under-utilised which would mean a higher per unit cost.

The lack of flights to main business centres even means foreign business will overlook Qatar to set up a regional base. There was a case of a multi-national seeking to open a regional base and they had two competitive offers from Qatar and another country in the Gulf. The Qatar option was the best in-terms of lower costs but the decision was finally taken to go to the other Gulf country because the executives didn't want to have to take a connection in BAH everytime they commute.

For reasons of Qatar's Brand Identity, employement of local population and promotion to foreign tourists and bussineses Qatar took the decision to aquire a stake in QR and aid them untill they can get back on their feet.

This doesn't only happen in "backward countries with too much oil money to blow" it happens all over the world. You can look at Air France in the early 90's for example.

Also to suggest the QR doesn't have a commercial aim is untrue. If the shareholders just want QR as an avenue to blow money in without any commercial goals why did they employ proffesionals to run the airline. Why didn't they incorporate the company into a ministry or why didn't they have government officials run the airline like they have with Qatar's other state-owned business?

If Qatar Airways has no commercial sense then they wouldn't need to have an excellent on-board product, strict training regimen for front-line staff to offer the best service, excellent on-board catering etc... too attract as many passengers as possible.

Look at other state-owned airlines who have poor inflight product, deteriorating quality and sub-standard front-line facilities such as lounges like Saudi Arabian Airlines. They don't need to have a good overall product with commercial style management because they don't need to attract any customers since even if they have a fleet of 1000 B747-400's flying with no passengers the government will still cover their losses.

[CaptSnails]

MTQatar,
Thank you for your views, however I think it's only fare to mention that since you are part of the (deleted on request) family, your views are most likely somwhat bias.

You mentioned among other things that:

Gulf Air didn't employ many Qataris even pre-Qatar Airways. The majority of Gulf locals in GF were from Bahrain even though Qatar, Abu Dhabi, Bahrain and Oman have an equal share in the airline. Gulf Air didn't contribute it's fare share to the economy, GF didn't do much to market Qatar as a tourist destination, didn't do much to market Qatar as a whole.

Gulf Air also reduced a lot of their flights out of DOH and that didn't offer a lot of choice for Qatari's to travel. The airport facilities were severely under-utilised which would mean a higher per unit cost.

First of all GF employed vertually all Qataris who applied, except ofcourse those who did not meet the required standards. The truth of the matter is that (the average) Qataris had much better things to do than to learn how to be a professional pilot. See per capita income and compare that to the rest of the owner states.
As far as GF reducing flights from Doha, that only happened when QR started flying and demanded to take a share of the routes. Besides a country like Qatar does not justify many more flights because of lack of shear passenger volumes in and out of Qatar.


In 1986 the population had reached 370,000 and by 1992, nearly 500,000. The present number is made up of about 25% of Qatari nationals, with the rest being expatriates.

Of the latter, by far the largest groups come from the Indian subcontinent (dominated by Pakistanis and Indian Keralites), other Arab countries (notably Egypt, Jordan, Palestine and Syria) and the Philippines.

So assuming today the total population is approximately 600,000(of which 75% are low income expatriates) please justify how it's possible to sustain an airline of the size of QR never mind its ambitious growth plans, considering Qatar is a country with absolutely no tourism and most certainly not a hub for Asia or Europe.

I find nothing wrong in you just admitting openly that, you know what we have the money and we want to create our own airline as an image maker for the country irrespective of what it may cost. But please don't try and tell us that a country like Qatar justifies such a move nor that such a move makes financial sence because you have better chances selling freezers to eskimos.

Regards and best of luck.

[ferris]

I applaud the Qatari's for having a go (even if MTQatar, A300man, etc. do lay it on a bit thick). In time, they will learn they cannot treat staff like chattels (educated staff, anyway).

Build it and they will come.

[A300Man]

ia1166 - sorry you feel that this thread is horse manure. I apologise if any of my previous comments have contributed to this feeling you have. But, you do have a choice. Avoid it if you don't like it.

I am not Akbar Al-Baker, by the way. But thanks for your comments in this regard.

Why only for pilots?

[MTQatar]

CaptSnails,

First of all GF employed vertually all Qataris who applied, except ofcourse those who did not meet the required standards. The truth of the matter is that (the average) Qataris had much better things to do than to learn how to be a professional pilot. See per capita income and compare that to the rest of the owner states.

I didn't say that Gulf Air rejected Qataris but they didn't create as much jobs for them as in the other member states. Most jobs were created in Bahrain followed by Abu Dhabi.

Also Qatar may have a high per capita income but most of the income is either used to pay off external debt or to re-invest in the economy and infrastructure so the money hasn't yet trickled down to the population. Also Qatar only became the top in the region in terms of per capita income in recent years. Upto about the mid-90's Kuwait and the UAE leaded.

As far as GF reducing flights from Doha, that only happened when QR started flying and demanded to take a share of the routes. Besides a country like Qatar does not justify many more flights because of lack of shear passenger volumes in and out of Qatar

When I mentioned GF reducing flights and not employing as many Qataris as from the other states I meant it as an explanation for the Qatari government to buy equity stake in QR and NOT as an explanation for why QR set up in the first place.

GF didn't make Doha a major transfer hub, which is not their fault since Bahrain and Abu Dhabi made more commercial sense and that is one of the reasons the Qatari government started to back QR in 2000.

As I said I was trying to explain why the government is backing QR and not why QR was set up in the first place.

So assuming today the total population is approximately 600,000(of which 75% are low income expatriates) please justify how it's possible to sustain an airline of the size of QR never mind its ambitious growth plans, considering Qatar is a country with absolutely no tourism and most certainly not a hub for Asia or Europe

Last year Qatar Airways carried a total of 1,820,000 passengers. Of which over 700,000 thousand were begining or ending their journey in Qatar, the other 1,100,000 are transfer passengers so your statement "most certainly not a hub for Asia or Europe" is not true. This year Qatar Airways aims to carry 2,500,000 passengers which would require an increase of 40% over last year. So far the passenger figures show more growth than they predicted. For example in 1Q 2002 they carried 65% more passengers than 1Q2001. They are also trying to have an equal number of O&D and transfer passengers to improve yeilds.

WRT Tourism, I wouldn't say there is "absolutely no tourism". Tourism in Qatar has been growing at a rate of ~20% per year and this year with the set up of the GTA, summer festival and the participation in the ITB, ATM and other Tourism expos we should see growth figures double that of last year.

In Qatar most tourists are from other Gulf states, mainly from Saudi Arabia, Oman and Kuwait. We also have many tourists coming in from Germany and to a lesser extent from other parts of Europe, who come here mainly between October and March.

The reason why you don't see many young tourists in the beach, or clubs etc... is because the government doesn't want to attract "fodder tourists" who are mainly younger tourists on a tight budget who like to go to the beach or clubbing, since they don't contribute much to the economy and are not sensitive towards the culture and the environment. Qatar is trying to attract more sophisticated, richer and older tourists who spend a lot more money then their younger counterparts and also are usually more sensitive towards the local culture and environment. They usually hang out at the luxury hotels, golf clubs and take a lot more time to experience the local environment and culture rather than bake themselves in the beach during the day and drink themselves silly at night.

[CaptSnails]

MTQatar, I agree with most of what you say and my point is that I believe that Qatar Airways has a future however it's growing at a disproportionate rate.

I firmly believe that the coup that happened in 96 (if I remember correctly) was the best thing possible for Qatar and its people. The previous Emir failed to or was not interested in developing the economy. I think that the present Emir and his government have done an excellent job within the short span of their reign. Anyone who has been in the region for a number of years prior to the coup like myself will agree that Qatar has changed and is changing dramatically.

I also agree that in no way would the "backpack" western tourist provide much to the economy nor the culture of the country. I do however believe that Gulf national tourism alone would also not provide the potential growth you require. What has to happen here is that the government has to provide incentives to large corporations to move to Qatar and at the same time promote tourism and expand the economy.

Making Qatar a hub for traffic to Asia and Europe is not easy either as you have massive competition with Dubai, Bahrain and Abu Dhabi which are already quite well set up for that. Certainly there is room for a National Airline but the growth plans I've seen do not reflect reality.

My point is large is not necessarily better.

We both know very well that within the local culture there is extreme competition with "thy neighbour", if he builds a villa, I'll build a bigger one, if he makes a summer festival I'll make a better one and like wise if he makes an airline I'll make a bigger one to show how much ritcher I am. All this is fine and dandy while the gas and oil dollars flow but that will not last for ever. Diversification is very much required in the Gulf and the only one's that have trully realized this is Dubai. I'm not implying that the oil and gas will stop anytime soon but if there is a market crash and prices fall the local economies will be devastated. It's the old saying of having all your eggs in one basket.

Anyhow I'm probably boring you to teers so as I said before, regards and good luck to Qatar airways.

[MTQatar]

CaptSnails,

QR is growing fast and if you read some of my previous posts you will see that I don't agree with the level of growth. I think QR should concentrate on existing routes and not enter new ones unless they are important (e.g. MAN, HKG and NBO). I also disagree with QR strategy to chase passengers rather than chase yeilds. Though I still think that over all QR is an important asset to our economy and they should not be abandoned.

WRT to your comment "My point is large is not necessarily better. " I agree completely and so does Al-Baker. Here is a quote from an interview with Al-Baker earlier in the year.

FLUG REVUE: Qatar Airways is currently one of the fastest-growing airlines in the world. What is your ultimate objective? Do you want to repeat the success story of Dubai-based Emirates?

Al Baker: No we want to stay a medium-sized carrier with a maximum of 30 to 35 aircraft, not 100, as Emirates is planning to fly in a few years' time. We want to maintain the high standard which we have today with twelve aircraft into the future as well. A 70-strong fleet requires a lot of compromises in the product. If one is small, it is easy to retain a proper overview and keep the business under control. If something happens at my airline that impairs our product, I find out immediately and can take appropriate countermeasures. We plan to freeze our fleet expansion no later than 2005 and then wait until we get our A380's. But we are servants of our country, and if my government wants me to expand more than is allowed for in my business plan, then I have to obey. We are geared towards the requirements of the state.

I think though that since then the plans have been revised to incorporate a few more aircraft, I am sure Riscy has more info on that.

I also agree that in no way would the "backpack" western tourist provide much to the economy nor the culture of the country. I do however believe that Gulf national tourism alone would also not provide the potential growth you require.

Gulf tourism is a good start and offers the GTA experience in attracting tourists. In the past year Qatar has been promoting tourism in Europe and the US even by participating in Trade Shows, cooperating with tour operators and marketing the country through the media. Qatar Airways has done the same too, through seting up "Destination Qatar" and marketing Qatar as a destination heavily. QR have also introduced packages similar to those that EK has done where transfer passengers don't take the next available connecting flight but instead spend a night or two in town. This has been especially popular with passengers originating in Asia.

What has to happen here is that the government has to provide incentives to large corporations to move to Qatar and at the same time promote tourism and expand the economy.

The government is doing just that. If you are ever in Doha schedule an appointment with someone at the Economy or Municipal ministries to show their efforts.

[Palma de Mallorca]

Mister Geezer,

Thanks for your questions. I reply as follows, for the purpose of clarification:-

1) I am an Aviation and Transport Journalist;

2) I am freelance and do not write for any specific publication, but rather several;

3) The article that I am working on just now is not for publication in Mallorca. It is a training guide that is being prepared for a large and well known UK institution who train personnel in the field of international business.

4) As such, Qatar Airways is just one of a hundred or so companies from different cultural genres that we are including in the study.

5) I merely live in Mallorca. It's my chosen home and I have been here for a while. Where exactly did you reside when you were here? You may know me from the Mallorca Daily Bulletin in the late 80's!!

6) The Emir of Qatar, as you know, has several properties on the island. The Qatar Amiri flight are regular visitors to the island. Since I spend a lot of my time at Son San Juan, I used to see the aircraft frequently. In the main, it was the A310 that would come here. However, lately we have had both the A320 and A319CBJ. I must state, though, that I havent seen a Qatari flight here for quite some time. The 747SP of HBJ was often here prior to its disposal last year. Mainly, the aircraft of Qatar would be positioning in from either Nice, Paris or Corfu. Rarely did the aircraft come here straight from base.

7) I have no particular special interest in Qatar Airways per-say. However, I have found that PPrune is an EXCELLENT source of information on the Company. Most of it checks out pretty well.


Now......my question to you......:-

a) I don't know how well you are or are not connected to the Airline, but can you confirm a report that I have had from a supplier that Qatar have placed an MoU for 2nr. Boeing 777-200ER aircraft, for delivery in June / July 2003?

Anyone who has info on this - please let me know.

P and V

[MTQatar]

Palma,

I have heard that HBJ is getting an A330-200, don't know if it is true or not, I thought you wanted to know.

WRT to the B777-200ER, Qatar Airways has been looking at it and the A340-500 for a while. They need extra capacity to LHR and Asia and they also need an aircraft with the range to do DOH-NYC non-stop in 2004.

The A340-500 has long been rumoured as the winner both through my contacts within Airbus, and from discussing it with QR staff like "Tom Cruise" on this forum. In my mind it was the logical choice since the amir is getting one and QR are an all-airbus fleet. Riscy, who is more knowledgable than me in the subject has said that Boeing and GE are giving them a better offer over AI/RR so the MoU could be true.

According to "Riscy" the order would be for 3 firm + 2 options which could be revised to 6 firm + 2 options at a later stage so 2 B777's seems too small a number.

[mutt]

Can the 777 make it from DOH directly to JFK during the summer?


Mutt.

[Mister Geezer]

Palma

Thanks for your detailed reply, I hope your research goes well. To answer your question, I have spent some time in Costa del los Pinos. I still love the island and I try to go there when I can.

Also of possible interest, was an article in Flight International in the issue that was issued straight after Farnborough. There was a bit of crystal ball gazing going on with reference to what QR's fleet plan is. I don't have the magazine to hand but maybe since you are in the media business it might be easy for you to get a copy of the article if not the magazine itself. The only thing I can remember is that the A340-500 was a key feature in its expansion plans. No surprise really since EK are customers for the A340-500 and it appears that these aircraft will be earmarked for potential USA routes. I recall that the Amiri flight was also seriously looking at the A340-500.

QR have never been a Boeing customer in recent years and a B777 does not make sense or if mutt's previous question is true, could the 777 be used a stop gap until the A340-500 arrives? However I have a gut feeling that the 777 would be stretched to operate a JFK route esp in hot conditions.

Cheers

MG

[MTQatar]

MAS fly their B777-200ER's on the DXB-EWR route even during the summer. Granted that they don't carry much cargo besides passenger luggage but they use lower a lower MTOW version with the Trent 890 engines. If QR get the GE90-94B or the RR Trent 895 with a higher MTOW they should be fine, QR will also have the benefit of having a longer runway and the DOH-JFK route is about 100nm shorter than DXB-EWR.

QR could still get 777-200ER's for Asia and LHR and get a couple of LR's for JFK.

<i>"I recall that the Amiri flight was also seriously looking at the A340-500. "</i>

an A340-500 has already been ordered and is due for delivery in June 2003, but would probably go to LH Technik or some other VIP outfitters for a few months before coming to DOH.

[Palma de Mallorca]

Mister Geezer and others,

Thanks for your replies and PM's to those whom have sent them. As requested by some of you, I hereby publicly post information that I have which confirms that Qatar HAVE signed an MoU for Boeing 777 equipment.................I belive it is the -200ER series and I also am told that the machines will be used on non-stop Doha-USA routes commencing 2004!

If anyone at QR can confirm this, I would be grateful.

V and P

[MTQatar]

PdM,

I can confirm 100% that QR will fly to NYC starting early 2004 it was anounced officially by the CEO himself. But am not sure about the B777, it was unofficially anounced that QR would take the A340-500. Is your source reliable? and how many B777 were part of the MoU?

[A300Man]

Sorry Palma. I have to agree with MTQatar on this one. I have heard that the A340-500 is the only equipment that QR will consider for their routes across to the USA. I think that the Boeing option is a non-starter...................

But, stranger things have happened. Just makes no sense whatsoever to introduce the 777 into an expanding and successful all airbus fleet.

Unless, of course, Boeing are willing to come way way close on an extremely attractive financial arrangement.

[boiler]

Just out of curiosity, is this JFK service going to work? I am under the impression that traffic from the ME is not that great esp. after Sept. 11 and the U.S. getting tough on visa applications. It seems QR will be after the Indian traffic to the U.S. (very low yield I believe) so making money on that route will not be easy. Anyone?

[MTQatar]

Boilermaker,

I doubt the route would be a commercial success but no doubt it is very important. Emirates plans huge Americas expansion including at least JFK, ORD, IAH, SFO, LAX, YYZ. GIG, GRU, EZE and QR has to have some sort of presence there.

QR would have a good mix of O&D and Transfer passengers. Tourism travel to the US from the Gulf has dropped significantly, it think the figure was upto 50%. QR's O&D hope lies in the increasing American population in Qatar. 10,000 US personell and their families are relocating into Qatar they will of course use military charters as a main form of transport but about the same number of civilian support are also moving in and include to that the increasing number of Americans in the Hydrocarbon, and educational sectors and they should be able to have a a good passenger base.

Transfer passengers are also different, Pakistani and Indian passengers are low yeidling and travel almost exclusivley in Y and are not commercially viable unless you have a charter configured aircraft with reduced catering etc...

QR though could repeat their European startegy and attract Gulf transfer passengers, although they are low yeilding they still are higher yeilding than Indian/Pakistani passengers and fly in F/J more than Pakistani and Indian passengers.

Cargo would also be very good, I read an article about QR's cargo operations out of London and a lot of high-yeilding cargo from the US, mainly in support of the oil industry is carried by QR.

One last advantage is that QR would have a US partner and would be part of an alliance so feed at the JFK end would be good.

I still think that the route will not be profitable but It is important for QR to get a foot hold there. QR get a lot of passengers on their Euro services from North America, fed in by LH, AC and UA including plenty of J and F class passengers and if QR don't have a non-stop US service they will lose out to EK.

[3000psi]

Ach ! the "Propaganda staffel" strike again........!!!
camel and goat..... to ORD or LAX or NYC......... you guys are dreaming !!!!

[Mister Geezer]

Just had a bit of a brain fart folks. I was thinking a bit about QR and their 'partners' at the moment. They codeshare with LH and have an agreement with them on frequent flyer schemes and QR have an agreement on frequent flyer schemes with bmi as well. Well.... since LH and BD are both in the Star Alliance, the question I put to you people is:

Does QR have its sights on joining Star???

I know this is pie in the sky but look at the time I posted this!!! :)

MG

[mutt]

Can anyone tell me why EK didnt start the USA route with the B777, why are they waiting for the Airbus?

MT, surprisingly enough, that space shuttle landing strip that you call a runway :), doesn’t actually offer any benefit in takeoff weight for the B777 when compared to Dubai. In both places the aircraft will be climb weight limited, it should be able to achieve MTOW (295t) at up to 32°C, after that the weight falls off dramatically.

What temperatures does DOH get in the summer?

Cheers

Mutt.

[MTQatar]

3000psi,

I got the list of destinations straight from Emirates. They are very ambitious indeed. The only firm North American destination for QR though is NYC (Don't know if JFK or EWR)

Mister Geezer,

You are right, QR are going to enter an alliance in the near future, being the first airline in the region to do so. In interviews made with Al-Baker in 1998-2000 he always said that they want to enter into Star Alliance and 2001-Today he says we are looking at all the three major alliances.

mutt,

Thank you for informing me about the runways. I don't have the average summer temperature on me right now.

"Can anyone tell me why EK didnt start the USA route with the B777, why are they waiting for the Airbus?

I recall when EK recieved their first B777-200ER's they said they will use them to the US. EK's B772ER are able to do 5200nm with full payload (according to their website) the DXB-JFK route would be approaching 6000nm, that would mean EK would have to reduce payload on the route. I guess unlike MH they are not willing to compromise on payload, especially in cargo which should offset the low-yeilding connecting passengers. EK also need their B777-200ER's for other destinations which are considered higher priority than JFK.

[nickmelb]

um cani just say something here...

A300man does not work for QR! i have known him for a longgggggg time...he has been a great help with info about QR as i want to persue a cabin crew career with them.....he knows a lot yes....but that is cause he has a lot of contacts there

thats all i have to say

cheers from oz

[mutt]

Evening MT,

mean EK would have to reduce payload on the route. I guess unlike MH they are not willing to compromise on payload

So does this mean that QR would be willing to compromise on the payload if they got the B777?

The distance from DOH-JFK is 6000 ngms, so I guess that DXB is 6100 ngms, does anyone know how much shorter the planned EK polar route is?

Mutt.

[MTQatar]

EK have chosen a low MTOW for their B777-200ER's and the engines they use are the Trent 892 because EK ordered their B777's to provide extra capacity routes ranging from short-haul to long-haul and not ultra-long haul routes.

I am guessing that if QR would choose the B772ER they will probably get a high MTOW option and high thrust engines for the 772ER's and QR will have less seats and hence less weight than EK since QR give more space for their passengers than EK. I am not saying that the B772ER's will fly with 21t of Cargo to JFK but their payload restrictions will be less than EK experience.

Previously QR have shown that they are not willing to tolerate payload restrictions. For example they were interested in the A321 but the range (with max payload) was considered to be to small (according to Tony Saville). I guess in some special cases such as CMN and maybe JFK they might think that they are willing to bleed cash just so they don't let a competitor entrench themselves in an important market.

EK for example [will] fly a max of 12-15t (over 21t for Euro and Asia) of cargo to PER and KIX, imagine how much more payload they will lose if they decide to use their B7772ER's to JFK.

Anyway no confirmation has come that QR has chosen the B772ER and from reading Riscy's post the 777LR is considered so no sense in me defending a possible choice for the B772ER.

[Thank you UTRF for correcting my spelling] - MTQatar

[A300Man]

Guys,

I think that either Qatar will go for the Airbus A340-500 only, OR, they will possibly still go for the same but will NOT commence services to the USA at all!!! (According to what I have heard mentioned today).

However, it is suggested that QR may decide to concentrate on a rapid and extensive expansion to Far Eastern and Asian routes, to compliment the increasingly numerous QR flights originating in Europe and North Africa.

Hong Kong, Taipei, Manila (direct), Singapore, Vietnam, are all mentioned as possible routes.

I find the above quite a distinct change in philosophy, i.e. no more plans to route to the USA.

This could also signal that Qatar are VERY CLOSE to entering one of the current alliances. Onward traffic from Europe to the USA could conceivably be executed using LH onward code-share services from Germany. However, QR would then need to enhance and increase current frequencies into MUC and FRA from DOH.

It is also highly likely that the forthcoming schedules to MAN will be timed to coincide with bmi's departures onwards to the USA from MAN, with possible code-sharing at a later stage.

To send the "oryx" into the USA, just because EK are doing so does not make any sense, other than keeping up with the Jones'.

The above considered, Mister Geezer, it is not entirely impossible that QR would join the STAR Alliance. Services of BD and LH would be quite well (and reciprocally) complemented by Qatar's high quality services from Middle East to MAN and Germany respectively.

Remember, there are a few other "smaller" carriers also present in STAR (Tyrolean for example - although conceded backed by OS).

My bet is that the above will be the actual plan implemented. But, entry into an alliance will be some time off. Let them get the new routes and codeshares established first of all. Walk before running!!!



LH have just sent their auditing team to Doha for an update on QR's status and suitability following recent concerns. Does anyone have any idea on the outcome of the audit?

[MTQatar]

I have heard the same thing concerning Asian routes. The plan is to start a batch of European/African destinations, followed by Asian destination etc...

If QR will not go to the US and focus on what they do best then the better for them but they will have to enter an alliance or kiss their North American passengers connecting in on UA, AC and LH goodbye.

Hong Kong, Taipei, Manila (direct), Singapore, Vietnam, are all mentioned as possible routes.

QR started to codeshare to HKG with MH so I guess they are seeing good results, TPE was mentioned as an extension of KUL but wouldn't that take too long as opposed to BKK, HKG or a nonstop route?

Vietnam would be interesting, QR would be repeating what they did in KTM, enter an underserved country without a strong national carrier and carve out a niche for themselves.

However, QR would then need to enhance and increase current frequencies into MUC and FRA from DOH.

According to AAB they are awaiting government approval for daily services to both destinations, bookings to and from Europe this winter have been exceptionally strong and so I wouldn't be surprised if MUC or FRA had one or two extra weekly flights if the ASA agreed and slots available.

LH have just sent their auditing team to Doha for an update on QR's status and suitability following recent concerns. Does anyone have any idea on the outcome of the audit?

QR started codesharing with LH on the DOH-MUC route but the codeshare was dropped after the audit found that QR didn't meet LH's criteria in certain aspects such as Emergency management. As far as I know QR aim to comply with all of LH's standards by the end of the year, but I guess if the LH auditors have already been here the reccomendations have all been met.

Oh and happy Qatar Independence Day for all :D

[A300Man]

Happy Qatar Independence Day to everyone viewing.

MT Qatar - don't you ever sleep?? Haha. I noted the timings of your two recent postings. Hope you are well.

I agree with your comments on the Vietnamese option. Would be a nice little niche market once established, but would rely totally on feed traffic from Europe. No market for direct DOH-Vietnam traffic as far as I can detect.

Don't see that it would work in the opposite direction though (i.e. feeding traffic from MNL and HKG to DOH, for reverting traffic to Vietnam?????) Makes no sense at all.

Have no more feedback yet on the Lufthansa Auditors visit last week.

[MTQatar]

A300Man,

Well noted, I actually made a post before I slept and I woke up at around 3:30am, I have been like this for quite a while no matter how late or early I sleep I always wake up this early.

WRT Vietnam even if QR relied solely on European traffic they will do well. Currently the existing Euro services are flying packed and since supply is so small ticket prices are expensive. If QR enters the market they will have no EK or GF competition and if loads are an issue they can always combine the route with another.

Over the past year the CAD has been renogitiating ASA's with many countries to allow QR to increase frequencies and to allow QR to get 5th freedom rights.

I also intended to say earlier that the A340-500 is a very heavy aircraft and is quite expensive to maintain, the fuel burn is unflattering too. Any use of the aircraft on routes shorter than 5500nm would be overkill. So if QR would not fly to the US the A345 would make no sense at all.

[kenoco]

Guys once again have any of you people ever ever worked as flight/cabin crew for QR???I have and the only reason I took the job is because in the interviews the management painted a very glossy picture,and hid the real truth about what goes on in QR.I still have good friends who have no choice but to work forAAB,but the bad news keeps on coming.Why don't we hear stories from ex employees of BA,EK etc and these airlines are 10 times bigger than QR,the truth is that AAB treats his employees like dirt because there are no legal contracts issued to crew in Doha and therefore AAB has a free hand to walk all over the people without any problem from the government.People my advice is don't waste your time in working for QR but if you do I guarantee you will all be back here in the near future complaining about how you were treated.Bottom line is crew ,on the majority hate working for QR which is why the crew turnover is so big.QR will never be EK,2 different styles of management.Also with regard to safety QR is a bit lacking in this department.A certain decompression last year in which most of the oxygen masks didn't work?????Oh yeah AAB would not want to bump into me I promise he would very much regret it.

[A300Man]

Kenoco,

If you are referring to the decompression incident MUC-DOH last year, with a landing in Belgrade, the oxygen masks DID work. Were you operating the flight?

[Lodestar]

Why is it that a lot of guys on this forum like to Bash QR just for the fun of it!

Every post that is a bit positive about QR gets smashed immediatly.....Is it like a favourite pass time in the region or what.

So what if QR is ambitious, so what if its CEO uses sometimes an iron hand to rule his company, So what if the Qatari are proud of their airline, so what if QR is the fastes growing airline......

I have flown QR once from LHR/DOH/DXB and I must say that the service provided is excellent! Staff professional and friendly, aircraft very clean, catering very nice.....

I was flying business class and it was the first time that I had a limo waiting on the tarmac to pick me up! Very impressive!

I wish them all the best......

[UTRF]

MT..

Seville is a place in Spain.

Saville is a GM-T


Just thought you should get the spelling right..
:)