Airtours captain sacked for flyby

[wobble-head]

I heard that a Captain with Airtours was sacked for carrying out a flypast of the airfield on completion of the hajj (sp?) contract.

The story goes he had permission from the airfield and did a flyby on depature whilst ferrying the aircraft 767 back to the UK.

Whilst I appreciate the need for a disciplined approach to flying and there are also insurance implications could the management have taken a slightly less drastic approach. A demotion or similar action would have served just as well.

[411A]

...perhaps if he had offered to pay the fuel bill...?

[Wycombe]

.....so no more formations with the Red Arrows over Jersey then?

[M.Mouse]

While having a degree of sympathy for anybody losing their job I would be suprised if a 'fly-past' or similar was not expressly forbidden by company policy.

It is forbidden in my company. If it was allowed on an ad-hoc basis where would the line be drawn? What height? Gear up?With warnings inhibited? What speed? What experience required? What form would briefing and planning take? The whole business is a recipe for disaster.

The type of flying involved in formation flying with the Red Arrows is extremely well planned and briefed certainly not carried out on a whim.

[NigelOnDraft]

Did anyone ever find an Internet reference to a movie of this "flyby"?

NoD

[Septimus Pyecroft]

As an outsider and a person who does not hold a pilot's licence at any level, there seem to be a few interesting questions which spring to mind on this topic.
If the Captain had permission, this surely implies he had asked it from a superior or person in charge. Has this 'superior' been disciplined? Was the 'flyby' denied at any stage or level? It seems that management in this case have found a 'scapegoat' in this poor pilot. Surely the buck should stop at the top? If the flyby was carried out safely, what now is the problem?Was the complaint launched by the Airfield? Who launched the complaint? was it a local?
My sympathies to the pilot concerned, but also until all questions are answered and all blame allocated accordingly, The company should maybe not make such a final decision. Was this pilot the most senior company person aboard?
Maybe I am barking up the wrong tree, if so maybe someone out there could put me right!
It would be much appreciated:confused:

[Fanny Batter]

Rumour has it some of the engineers involved are being investigated after the QAR went missing.:eek:

[jongar]

I think it would be fair to assume that having permission to do a fly by, from the tower is a different story to getting permission from the company,

[Septimus Pyecroft]

Jongar, a valid point indeed but what about all the other questions and the question of ultimate culpability? It's not that I am particularly 'gunning' but in light of ridiculous justice being in the media (plane spotters etc) no stone should be left unturned, and I find it hard to believe that just one person in a 767 can have done this with no obvious immediate objections???????:eek:

[BEagle]

As one who has been guilty of conducting 'fly bys' in the past - 350 KIAS at 80 ft in a Vulcan, 600KIAS at <200 ft in a Phantom - I have to say that doing such things in an airliner such as a 767 is NOT A Good Thing. It'll rack up years worth of fatigue and the crew are NOT trained to be able to carry out the manouevre safely. It's one thing to carry out safely (but illegally) a high speed low level manoeuvre which you've been trained to be able to do, but haven't been authorised for - quite another to fly an inappropriate manoeuvre for which neither you nor the aeroplane have ever been cleared....

[dusk2dawn]

Almost afraid to admit it but many moons ago I did a lowpass in a SD-360 and I''ll never do it again: the GPWS went bananas !

[virgin]

BEagle, you're becoming an old fuddy-duddy in your old age. :)

Even in this namby-pamby day and age, I think sacking him is OTT.
A bollocking would fit the bill nicely.

[eko4me]

It reminds me of an incident in the early eighties at the old Gaborone Airport during the First? Botswana International Airshow which a mate of mine helped to organise. The usual activities had to be suspended whilst a local SAA service from JNB landed – 737?. Apparently the SAA pilot entered the spirit of the occasion and executed a low level fly-by which was greatly appreciated by the local crowd. According to witnesses it got the biggest cheer (and ululations) of the day. I’m sure it wasn’t Scully – and this is only rumour of course.:)

[Stan Woolley]

BEagle

Flying level down a runway at a couple of hundred feet and three hundred knots may not be adviseable these days, but I'm sure your average airline pilot could do it safely without too much training and without the jet falling to bits.

Or did he exit field right doing a sixteen point hesitation roll. :rolleyes:

[Navy_Adversary]

Anyone remember the flyby from an Airbus at an airshow in France I believe, finished up in the pine forest!:eek: :rolleyes: :eek: :rolleyes:

[Heliport]

Yes, very clearly.
And it wasn't a straight-forward low level fly-by.

[spekesoftly]

Beagle paints a very dramatic picture of this 'flyby', as if the guy really beat up the airport. Is this based on fact or speculation?

[Heliport]

Guess! ;)

[skylord757]

I remember several years ago a Britannia Captain was fired after he did a fly-by.

He was postioning a 757 and nobody was on board apart from himself and the F/O and it was his daughters birthday and since his route took him over his house he did a low level fly-by and his neighbours did not approve. I even saw a photograph of the fly-by he looked about 800 ft.

[Waste Gate]

Rather than ask for a fly - by, just advise the tower you're conducting a very low go around.:D

[brit bus driver]

Therein lies the answer.........;)

BEagle, I don't think the VC10 was designed for flypasts either, but I've seen some pretty low ones over the O Mess at a certain Oxon airbase....

That aside, valid points about unauthorised or inexperienced goings-on in big a/c.....answer is..get yourself in the designated position to do it legally:D :D

[Chimbu chuckles]

If it had been a management pilot doing it without authorisation you could almost gaurantee nothing would have been said. I agree that an invite for tea and bikkies and a sharp talking at would have been more appropriate.

Beagle

I enjoy all your posts but that last one just niggled me a little. After all the (very entertaining) posts we have read of RAF highjinks in various high speed pointy things (like jets barely missing buildings/between buildings at Passing Out Parades etc) you, while telling us of a couple of your own better ones, speak in disparaging tones of a highly experienced civil pilots ability to fly past an aerodrome at 300kts/100 or 200'

Apart from the possibility that he might've been ex mil fast jet I can assure you that many of us out here in the real world (ie not in the light blue/dark blue/Khaki sheltered workshop!) are quite capable of having a bit of fun in an aircraft without it becoming dangerous.

Chuck.

[411A]

Well Chuck....would that be without management approval then?

If so....not too bright.:rolleyes:

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I agree Chuck, to suggest that any pilot who makes it to flying big jets cannot safely do a low flyby is ludicrous.

It is of course not the brighest thing to do if you have to explain why after. :D :D

Safe yes..... Smart ????

..................................

:D The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.:D

[Ghostflyer]

Aren't fly-bys and airliners contradictory terms. Anyone watching on the ground wants to see a real good beat up (Beagle's parameters though a tad weeny will suffice). From the pilots point of view, 330kts at a couple of hundred feet is about as exciting as going for a drive in a Lada; particularly when you can rack the jet up to all of 2g. The guy was spirited, probably vaguely well intentioned, but not likely to impress anyone either on the ground or in management!

Ghost

[Stratocaster]

I'm sure this Captain was fired because those higher on the seniority list are jealous to death. :D :D

Or is this a management decision ? Bean counters are known to be totally stranger to the spirit and the legacy of aviation.

No pax onboard ? Done at a reasonnable speed and altitude (let's say close to a typical go-around) ? Go for it. It's a nice way to say goodbye and thank you to your customers. (Now don't tell me flight crews don't have enough pratice of the go-around) :)

We have lots of guesses and questions here, anybody has some facts ?

[gyrohead]

;) Does anyone recall the details of a now legendary lowpass in the '70's (500ft?) in a EI 707 over one of the lakes between Dublin and Shannon. In this case the story is the captain was demoted to F/O and the complainent was the wife of the then chief pilot Dick White who was knocked from her boat by the shock whilst fishing!!!:eek:

[STAGE COACH DRIVER]

Now this is what you call a flybye

www.aviationpics.de/airshow/airshow.htm

[Wycombe]

M.Mouse

....take your point completely about different circumstances (I guess me must assume they were very different)

BEagle

....will never forget the return of 101 from Op Granby (9 VC10K's
line-astern low-level over the Air Terminal of aforementioned Oxon airbase)....fantastic!

[2high]

Anyone ever hear about the Air Zimbabwe captain who was operating Hre-Jnb in a 767 with about 120 in the back. The small light a/c field to the north (about 15nm away) was having an open day and getting into the spirit of things, once airborne he stayed at 1500ft flew to the light a/c field, joined the circuit, came downwind, onto final fully configured and flew to about 50ft ( right infront of the crowd) then pushed the GA switches and blasted off to Jnb.

According to spectators it was quite impressive - but what was more impressive was the absolute look of horror on the faces of all the pax who thought that they were going to die as they gawked out of the windows.

Who lost his job in this incident - well the chief pilot did - because no matter how hard he tried to discipline the capt. no-one listened, so he took a rather interesting route and wrote to the CAA - who promptly returned the letter back to UM managers.:eek:

[crab]

My company`s flight manual (as I`m ssure all other company manuals do)includes a section on low fly past for the purpose of undercarriage checking by ground observers in the event of undercarriage malfunction.This is of course carried out at low speed and is arguably more difficult than a highspeed flypast with its much greater stall margin.If that is acceptable I cannot see that a high speed pass is dangerous even when flown by non military untermensch.It would not of course be desirable unless approved by the appropriate company authority and of course the bean counters.Wouldn`t want to upset them would we!

[angels]

A classic pprune thread this one!
All rumour and speculation, some modest ranting and some great pix. (Thanks Stage Coach Driver!).
So, did this happen? Has a pilot been sacked from Airtours? Someone out there must know!

Classic in more ways than one. Edited to correct my junk spelling....

[Clematis]

So how did this fly by differ from one done in sunny Florida on the last flight of a Captain who went to the CAA ? - Oh, he was already going !

[Chimbu chuckles]

411a,

Management approval?

Well there was the time I went past the bosses boat in an empty Banderante(editted :D) while he mooned me from the flybridge of his moter boat.........does that count?

Then there was the time the Fleet Captain(DHC7) and I did a fly past of the hill where our compound was.......pretty much in the middle of the capital city of the country we were in.......about 500' AGL;) . 'Buzzing The Hill' became so popular that the 'Big Kahuna' asked that the lads be told to 'give it a rest'.

Or the time the F28 Checkie did a timed turn and level acceleration after take-off......at crackle power in an F28......designed to put us over the very same hill at 500' just after dawn on News Years Day.......well we were awake:D

My point is only that there is a very big difference between doing something unsafe and doing something which is merely a little spirited........if this story is true all that captain was guilty of was 'spirited'.

If you want to claim you have never been a little 'spirited' then you are either dead from the shoulders up........or a liar:p

Chuck.

[Jet II]

angels,

I can confirm that this event occured at the end of the Airtours deployment to the Hajj - the fly-by was done with only the crew and some ground support staff onbord with the full agreement of the airport authority's.

I do not know if the Captain concerned has been sacked - the last I heard he was suspended.

From talking to other Airtours flight crew it seems that most of them believe that he has been treated badly by the company, and that only a short period of suspension, if any, was warranted.

I have heard that the CAA has got involved but do not have any more info on this - any CAA surveyors out there?

[greatorex]

I know it's an old one, but this 'sort-of-fly-by' always gives me the creeps:

Pull up - NOT THAT MUCH!!!!!! (http://www.eddh.de/x-files/dl_files/a319_start.mpg)

It may take a few minutes to download - but it's worth it if you haven't seen it! :)

Edited to update link address

[pilot26]

280KTS @ 50`
ANO. An aircraft shall not fly closer than 500` to any person, vessel, vehicle or structure.
(c) will not be applicable if the aircraft is taking off or landing at an aerodrome in accordance with normal aviation practice.
Do it at home on flight sim if you have too, ask your friendly sim instructor if you need to let off steam next time your in the sim, but don`t do it in a commercial airliner and jeopardize mine or anyone else`s careers.

[kennedy]

I seem to recall reading in Hudson Fysh's ( one of QANTAS's founders) autobiography that, on the introduction of the 707 to the aforementioned company in SYD the dignitries were assembled for a low level fly past to mark the occasion.

The PIC entered into the spirit of the occasion, and whilst on the flyby, accomplised a perfect barrol roll!!:D :D :D

I believe he was the Chief pilot at the time and received a strict talking to!

[dv8]

More fly past photosB737 (http://www.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!/open.file/209217/M/)
andB727 (http://www.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!/open.file/051730/M/)

[Scallywag]

So if this thread is correct, that's 2 pilots from the touring company dismissed in the same month !!!

What do you guys think of your new management ?? :rolleyes: A few rumblings in BALPA I hear.

[steamchicken]

outstanding vid!

[Holer Moler]

:( Hi Wobs) Bet you never got up to antics like these in your pinging machine- give me a call one day. Ex Suad/Deb.

[BayAreaLondoner]

greatorex - interesting video. Does anyone know the story behind it?

[RatherBeFlying]

I'm wondering if circling approaches are more hazardous, especially if you lose the threshold and have to do a miss.

[sdac]

This doesn't have any connection with a circling approach, when the gear, and most of the flap, are set.

280 knots, clean, at 50 ft, and with company passengers on board might reasonably be seen as a cause for concern.

[GlueBall]

That sort of exhibition flying is best left alone until the week of one's retirement. :D

[pax anglia]

Without wishing to draw too much attention to my age,I recall a Trident doing a fairly spirited flypast at Booker (late 1960's)presumably with the approval and assistance of LHR ATC as it was a scheduled service.An account appeared in the newspapers as it generated some comment from a number of the passengers.
Anyone with a better memory care to comment?

[Airbubba]

>>That sort of exhibition flying is best left alone until the week of one's retirement.<<

From www.avweb.com :

AA Captain Busted For Buzzing With A Boeing

Looks like American Airlines Captain Clifford Johnson is being hung out to dry for an alleged "buzzing" incident last February 16 [1999]. Capt. Johnson was PIC on a brand-new Boeing 777 being delivered to Miami when he made a few low passes near his home at the Spruce Creek Fly-in, a well-known aviation community in Florida. Although American backed up Johnson at the time -- saying that the maneuvers had been cleared in advance -- the carrier has since changed its tune and seemingly thrown him to the wolves at the FAA. Also at issue is whether there was a flight attendant aboard to say "buh-bye" to some 21 passengers -- mostly AA employees and corporate guests -- aboard the non-rev flight. Johnson, 59, and a pilot with American for 33 years, has an otherwise unblemished record.

_________________________________________________

The US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) has proposed substantial fines and certificate suspensions for at least two of the participants in a formation flight staged between a passenger-carrying Northwest Airlines 747 and the Collings Foundation B-24 bomber last summer [1999]. The airliner's captain, who was flying his last flight before retirement, had pre-arranged the formation, and Northwest had approved it. The FAA, however, took a dim view of the proceedings and has begun an investigation into the matter.

http://www.warbirdalley.com/archive.htm

[Clipper811]

A few years back a DC10 on T/O at HNL, destination
ORD asked ATC for a "beach departure" at 500' agl.
ATC approved and the a/c flew down Waikiki Beach.
Months later after the Captain retired he got a
forwarded letter from his airline with pictures
taken from a beach hotel. In the pictures you
could see the top sides of both wings, it looked
more like 50-100' afl. Also, on the TV last
Sunday, the Ft. Lauderdale AIR N SEA show had a
B777 fly along the beach approx 200' agl.

[411A]

...some guys never learn. :rolleyes:

[Chuck Ellsworth]

sdac:

Your right 280 knots at fifty feet would be exceeding the speed limit under 10,000 feet....

Very unprofessional.:D :D :D

...................................
:D The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.:D

[D Beaver]

pax anglia,

Yes, you are right, he said, showing his age as well :) I think it was 1968 or so at Booker. A BEA Trident made a low approach and GA instead of continuing to hold while waiting to get into LHR on a revenue flight. And then as I was leaving on the road just to the east of threshold of 25, a BOAC VC-10 made an even lower approach and GA - about 100' over the road. :D

At the same airshow, I remember a spectacular display by the CFS Ternhill Bell 47 team and also the ultimate PA announcement: "Would Mr. R-----d F----y please return to his Spitfire?"

[HectorusRex]

Seems as if there is a little bit of contradiction in this topic.
I still vividly remember observing a BA Concorde performing after-burner turns at an airshow at Duxford whilst full of punters en-route to Aberdeen. This was in the summer of 1985 (?)
Said Concorde arrived into the circuit and competed for attention and drama with a similar type display carried out by an RAF Lightning.
The punters then continued to Aberdeen, enjoyed lunch and a Mach run down the North Sea, and finished off by repeating the display at Duxford en-route to Heathrow.
To cap it all the conditions were very barely VMC!
I have met several Concorde pilots, and to the best of my knowlege none of them can, in spite of rumour to the contrary, walk on water.
;)

[Rwy in Sight]

Will a pilot either military or ar transport rated explained me the difference between a fly by a fly past and a go around.

Although we do not know the details.how could the manouevre under light differs from a fly by to check on a gear unsafe indication.

[Firestorm]

We all used to await clearance into Luanda from ATC of "D2 xxx: cleared NOT ABOVE 500' by 20 miles inbound." And believe me, we used to take full advantage of that clearance. So it was in a Twin Otter where 250 knots is a mythical dream, let alone 350 kts and all that, but b$%%$^&s, it was still fun!

[M.Mouse]

Fly - by, fly - past is flying an aeroplane generally at low level past a crowd/airfield/dignitaries, etc. usually with the gear up with no intention of landing. The purpose is to either display an aircraft having planned, briefed and prepared for the manouevre(s) not usually flown or to show off and do something one is unaccustomed too, thereby putting oneself into an unfamiliar situation which, should something, unexpected happen increases the possibility of an accident.

A go-around is usually flying a missed approach having had every intention of landing in a normal configuration from normal approach and landing speeds.

Fly-bys for gear inspection are, in general, pointless and in my company are specifically discouraged. The relevant paragraph in my manual states that according to company research flypasts are unlikely to contribute any useful information to supplement flight deck indications.

One has to bear in mind in an unfamiliar configuration/at unfamiliar speed/at low level most pilots are stepping outside of their trained and familiar environment. Planning and briefing for something of this nature on the hoof will inevitably mean that all angles have not been considered. The GPWS warnings that might occur for instance or how would an Airbus behave?

As far as Concorde is concerned I believe it had a display routine which was properly prepared and briefed and I also believe that only certain trained individuals were allowed to fly that routine. The display mentioned with passengers did occur but this was before the carrying of passengers during a display routine was outlawed by the CAA. It was outlawed following the loss of life incurred when an old twin was unexpectedly barrel rolled into the ground during a display killing all on board. The manouevre, funny enough, was unplanned, unexpected and er.....fatal.

Some of my colleagues are surely ace pilots and can do anything in an aeroplane. Sadly I am only human and I will fly the aircraft as safely as I can within the operating parameters dictated by those that a) own it and b) pay my salary.

What really concerns me in this thread is that I am in agreement with 411A!

[Hot Rod]

Does anyone have a picture of the AIR OPS L-1011 that made a very low fly-by at Brize Norton (I think it was...) in 1995 or 1996?:D

[Hoverman]

I'd be seriously concerned if I believed, as M. Mouse seems to think, that the average (non 'ace') airline captain wasn't capable of safely executing a simle fly-by. :rolleyes:
And why assume he didn't plan it thoroughly and competently?
Not asking management permission was unwise, but quite a different thing.

[Captain Stable]

A circling approach is also an evolution that is practised in the sim on a reasonably regular basis, and for which procedures appear in the Company's Ops. Manual. Such manoevres are carried out in order to get the aircraft on the ground as safely as possible.

A fly-past in order to carry out a visual gear check would normally have been done after all possible options from the QRH have been examined, and engineers consulted. It would also be carried out at a higher level than most fly-bys that I have personally witnessed.

Nobody appears to know much about this alleged incident, but I think it is safe to assume that it was not carried out with prior approval of the company. If it was done (as has been alleged) with approval from the airport authorities, we may conclude that the incident was reported by one of the company staff on board at the time, who, one assumes, disapproved. It is probably also safe to assume (I don't work for the company concerned so can't comment on their manual) that such procedures are not covered by any section of the Operations Manual.

The fate of the captain concerned is, similarly, not confirmed, so accusations of over-harsh action by the company are a little premature.

Yes, we have all carried out dubious "high jinks" stunts in the past. Hopefully, most of us learnt relatively inexpensively why they are not generally approved. Usually one learns such a lesson before commanding a multi-million dollar airframe, and being responsible for your company's reputation.

[koi]

Such a shame for all the family concerned and for all the others affected by a persons selfish action, not least those who have to clear up afterwards and those onto whome the mess gets flung.
Yes, I was there, fun it was not.

[Flap40]

More low flying!

http://www.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!/open.file/051638/L/

:rolleyes: :confused: :rolleyes:

[Arkroyal]

koi

Tell us more, then :confused:

[Septimus Pyecroft]

Yes Koi, I would be really grateful if you could answer the questions I asked on page one of this thread....Much appreciated as I still reckon that this pilot has been punished a little harshly for whatever went on and that nobody at the time on board the aircraft protested...or did they?:eek:

[M.Mouse]

<<I'd be seriously concerned if I believed, as M. Mouse seems to think, that the average (non 'ace') airline captain wasn't capable of safely executing a simle fly-by.
And why assume he didn't plan it thoroughly and competently? >>

I am indeed assuming that it wasn't thoroughly planned because if they are unofficial or against the rules they arely are. I was not implying that the average airline captain wasn't capable of safely executing a fly-by but I was implying that an ad-hoc manouevre of this type is recipe for disaster.

If it is such a non-event then why do most companies expressly forbid it?

Out of interest I have been in the right hand seat of a 40 seat turbo-prop doing a very, very low fly-by at a grass airfield. I would have been more comfortable had it not been done to massage the ego of the pilot flying and impress his former flying club colleagues. It would also been a little less alarming had the GPWS circuit breakers been pulled before a myriad of automatic warnings occurred just at the point of beginning the impromptu, and in my mind therefore dangerous, display.

As far as passengers are concerned (even if they are just positioning crew) I equate it to being driven at high speed by somebody else. You are not in control yourself and for that reason alone it can be a very uncomfortable situation.

[wobble-head]

Just got back from a nightmare trip and am quite surprised to see the reaction this question has generated.

KOI I appreciate that you would not wish to elaborate on a public forum but may I ask if you feel the captain deserved to be sacked?

[skippyscage]

flap40

that was the very photo i was looking for

happened at white waltham air display i recall

[25F]

What's the procedure for an engine failure at 280 kts & 100'?

Excuse my ignorance, I'm just an interested piece of SLF.

[crab]

Use the kinetic energy and the remaining engine(s) to climb to a safe altitude to carry out the appropriate procedure and make an approach.

[Viscount Sussex]

Danny, isn't it time to put this one to bed yet?
Please!!:o

[greatorex]

Sorry, Viscount, but WHY exactly?

[M.Mouse]

crab

Have you ever practised that manoeuvre?

[Neo]

Personally I wouldn't want to take $10,000,000 - $200,000,000 worth of someone else's hi-tech hardware anywhere they weren't paying me to take it, no matter how godlike I think my flying abilities are, unless it was specifically authorised and well planned.

If you want excitement, get a Suzuki GSX-R 1000. It beats the crap out of flying airliners around.

If you really have to get your kicks whilst flying, then join the Military and get paid for flying things like Eurofighter Typhoon or EH Merlins; but then you'd have to put up with all the military crap.

I certainly won't be doing any low flypasts in airliners with a mortgage the size of mine!

[Algy]

Flap 40/Skippyscage

yup, I'd say that's the White Waltham event - the glorious summer of '78 when I was doing my Flying Scholarship there. I believe the beautiful bird is being flown by Capt Townsend-Smith, whose son Martin was later to join the RAF. Still out there Martin?

Anyone remember the One-Eleven between the hangars and offices at Hurn, late 70s/early 80s. Also an imminent retirement as I recall.

[crab]

M.Mouse-------Yes,but only in a simulator with full daylight visuals.

[captchunder]

Don't know if this happens in any other companies, but if we have any spare time in the sim after our OPC/LPC/whatever they want to call it this time, we quite often have a little tool around. Whether it be a race around the rock of Gibralter (take off, circuit to land and stop asap), low level through some open hangers or down a Swiss valley at sim speed x4.

It's all good fun and done in the spirit of "improving advanced handling techniques".

Can't say I've used what I've learnt from these 'exercises' yet, and I hope not to, but it does show you some of the capabilities and limits of the aircrafts manoeuvrability.

I'm sure this fly-by/low go around effort was within the realms of safety in terms of the aircrafts envelope; but I'm still not sure whether this guy took the best option, so to speak.

If he wanted to impress, then throw a party to celebrate the end of the contract, don't risk your mortgage

[Anti-ice]

All exciting stuff - if it's authorised whats the problem??!

Does it really take years off an airliners life in terms of fatigue??

Love the VC10 shot too, bet there was a roar from those conways shortly afterwards!!

I think 2 of the most exciting flyby's I've seen were as a young teen at the Biggin Hill airshow's in the early 80's.

One was of Sally B ,much loved B-17 who disappeared into that dip at the Southerly end of the runway for what seemd like heart stopping silent minutes , then came roaring out at a v high angle of attack, feet from the ground, and carried on down the runway.
Notably v loud gasp's from the crowd!!

Also at BHill, 80's again --if anyone was there ?- - A British Airtours TriStar made an appearance - revenue flight-(departing/arriving LGW) made a slow graceful for approach for an intended flypast - and to the astonishment of the commentator/crowd, did a cheeky touch'n'go !!!! Was a giant compared to the surrounding aircraft/buildings!Anyone remember?

Are of these recent US 777 flypast pix available?!

[Chimbu chuckles]

Must admit I've had as much.......if not more fun in SIMs :D


Chuck.

[Septimus Pyecroft]

So Koi, you were on the flight which according to an earliier post was just ground support personnel and engineers, but your profile says you are a pilot. Would I be right in thinking that you were a management pilot, or just an innocent bystander?If so, what steps did you take in supervising or preventing the flyby and in that case, between you and the pilot concerned,who reported it to the Company? I ask this because as mentioned earlier, the Captain had permission from the airfield so it seems unlikely that someone on the ground complained.
You also mentioned in your post what a shame for all 'the others affected by a person's selfish action, not least those who have to clear up afterwards and those onto whom the mess gets flung'.
Surely if the flyby was taken in the spirit which it was flown, that is, (according to original post), 'on completion of the Haj contract', no mess would have been generated and a possible'ticking off' more appropriate.
This whole situation seems to me to have been completely blown out of proportion.:confused:

[LRdriver]

Whats the definition of a flyby? If the guy in question did it at 30 feet then yes hes an idiot.. but if he did it at 500-1000 feet then its not unsafe. Everybody has done a flyby of sorts in their careers and this not the sole domein of som armed force trained nigel :mad: What is a missed approach or balked landing if not a flyby? "trained to do flybys.." good grief.. It must have been a miracle that I survived flying down the grass strip before landing on it with the kingair..(Checking for field-mice and such..)

Without knowing the details or seeing it myself I reserve any opnion whether or not he was unsafe.

[trapped off]

koi,
Everyone there knew about the plans for the fly by, so i presume you must have as well. If so why did you not have a quite chat with the captain and explain the consequences of going through with it, and explain that you really wern't happy with it? I'm sure that if you did he would not have gone ahead with it. if you were really that against it why did you not jump on one of the earlier two flights? I can only assume that you both have an axe to grind.
It is a real pity he has lost his carreer because you couldn't have a quite chat over a beer.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

What about the fly-bys for gear checks? Seen some real frighteners at Heathrow! And how about all those commercial airliners that did fly-bys for the 50th anniversary? Were those crews not experienced enough?

[Ex Servant]

Could someone who knows give those of us who don't an idea as to what puts more stress on an airframe/is possibly more risky, a full power go around from low level or a low level pass. Having read the previous replies I'm presuming the crews are trained to do both as it has been pointed out that crews would do a low pass if there was a question as to whether the gear was down and locked.
If there's nothing in it was the sentance proportionate? I remember listening to my airband radio (yes sad I know) when the last Dan Air 727 departed LGW a few years ago and the controller broadcasting that it was a nice flypast that they did. I don't recall any objections to that.

[411A]

If the so called "Captains" (who SHOULD know how to follow standard company procedures) want to do a low level fly-past, they should be prepared to buy their OWN aeroplane and then do so at their local airfield. To do so with company equipment, without management approval AND proper training in these maneuvers...are grounds for DISMISSAL....period.
And...say goodby to the pension as well.
It should be REMEMBERED that Captains are there not only to command the aeroplane, but to set an example to the First Officers under their command.

Some guys will NEVER ever learn....:rolleyes:

They need to be expunged from the airline profession...as in GONE.

[41IA]

...the sage has spoken. Is there anything you DON'T have an opinion on?

[FLEX42]

Concur Septimus, appropriate and well phrased

[brit bus driver]

Greatorex...

Great vid...must get that added to the airshow routine...
:D :D

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Oh yes... did anyone see the Concorde fly-past at Blackbushe a few years back? No air show, nothing... I can't remember the reason but it certainly wasn't "operational". I got the tip before leaving work... not believing it but curious I went to Blackers and a Concorde came hurtling past at a few hundred feet!!

[BEagle]

Sorry if I appeared to criticise the mate who did the low fly-by - that wasn't my intention. I don't know the specific case and was generalising.

I admit to having done both the post-Granby flyby over Base Hangar and 2 or 3 authorised fly pasts at the Secret Oxfordshire Airbase's Officers' Mess, but then I'd had the advantage of extensive and expensive low-level military flying training. The ac were at low weight and the fatigue consumption was budgeted. Whereas some other to$$er (who now flies 125s at a business airport near Ruislip) was guilty of 3 seperate flypasts at max all up weight - and he'd been let off a CFS posting because he said that he went 'tilt' if exposed to angles of bank in excess of 61 deg. Those 3 unapproved 'displays' flown by that untrained and unchosen idiot cost at least 18 months of airframe fatigue life.....

[411A]

Are Brit aeroplanes THAT overstressed...?:eek:

[BIG DICK]

It appears they are!!

[BEagle]

Only when flown at MTOW, 300KIAS and 500 ft in mid-day summer turbulence, followed by a harsh pull-up! Flown gently and smoothly at a lower weight, then no, they're not!

Nothing intrinsically dangerous or hazardous about a low fly-by if the pilot knows what he's doing. Sadly, many simply don't!

[411A]

Think we should listen to BEagle here....and leave these low passes to the experts.
Also avoids an unpleasant chat with the Chief Pilot...or worse.

[Stan Woolley]

BEagle and 411A

Shouldn't you chaps be posting in the Aviation History and Nostalgia forum?

[Cornish Jack]

It is a truism that there is a HUGE difference between a fully authorised and BRIEFED low level pass and the ad hoc manoeuvres which have always, and will always, be part of the aviation scene. Those who carry out the latter are, at best, lax in their approach to their profession and, at worst, criminally negligent.
Yes, it is exciting to watch and, from experience, an adrenaline rush producer. However, having also had to recover the personal effects of my dead predecessor from the aircraft wreckage, one's opinion as to the wisdom, or otherwise, becomes modified.
The particular incident was the product of one of BEagle's 'well trained military pilots' operating in what was, for him, the natural low-level environment. He got it badly wrong and killed himself - no big problem - but he took my mate with him - not forgiveable. Our boss at the time made the definitive summing-up....."you knew what this person was doing (the particular manoeuvre was one of his regular 'party-pieces') BUT NONE OF YOU DID ANYTHING"
As they say oop North - "think on't" :(

[Captain Stable]

I have to agree with BEagle, CornishJack and co.

An unauthorised, unbriefed, unpractised flyby done just for the hell of it is just about the most stupid, unprofessional, dangerous thing you could do.

For those who say that sacking was over the top - matter of opinion. I disagree with you.

Stick to the rule book, stick to what you've been taught, keep your head down and you won't go far wrong. Indulge yourself in high jinks and you have only yourself to blame for the consequences.

[TomPierce]

I am reliably informed that the said Captain, who I happen to vauguely know suggested to the "Manager" that he might do a low fly by. The "Manager" thought it was a "good idea" and off the good Captain went. I am told that he planned to level off at 100' but actually levelled off at 51' after the dreaded inertia had a bite. The "manager" apparently got the wind up and decided he should report the Captain. The result thereafter was inevitable. Justly I believe.

Further scuttlebut of this very strange operation is that SOME rated Captains are being required to be base checked in the RHS of their respective types. But here is the strange bit. They are then not allowed to undertake the duties of FO, and cannot therefore fly from the RHS. It appears that while a rated Captain can normally operate from the LHS he must act as PNF every time he is scheduled for a trip in the RHS. Ostensibly because he MIGHT be future training material!! Ummmm!

I am truly perplexed by this so if there is a plausible answer to this curious use of Captains in this company I would love to know.

[Clematis]

As Airtours has changed it's name to MyTravel, perhaps they should now be referred to as the Travellers rather than the Tourists - I will let my coarser colleagues run with that one!
The RHS thing I believe is to cover the actual, but not admitted, pilot shortage at MYT and increase the standby availability. The CRM implications of flying a Capt in the RHS who can't touch anything need looking at, I wouldn't particularly want to do it.

[HugMonster]

If he is base-checked in the RHS, then he should have covered incapacitation of the other guy, so he is qualified to fly it! Sounds to me like someone's got their knickers in a bit of a twist on this one - unless there's significant factors we haven't been told?

[Max Angle]

Off topic, but re. the RH seat check, at bmi all captains are right seat checked so that we can operate in the RH seat should it be required. We do a take-off, eng fail, SE go-around and SE landing from the RH seat during every sim. check. The CAA say that we can be PF from that seat but the company policy is for us only to be PNF unless you are a training captain. If two skippers fly together we just swap seats for the next sector. Does not happen very often but can be usefull from time to time.

[Captain Stable]

Sorry for sticking with the off-topic bit, but can anyone senior within bmi or the Tourists comment on the reason for this?

If you have a guy checked out and qualified to sit in the right-hand seat, why not let him be as practised in flying from that side as possible?

As has been pointed out, what is he going to do in case of incapacitation of the guy in the left seat? Ask him to get out so you can change seats because you want to fly from there, not being practised in flying from the seat you're in?

I'm very far from being convinced that this is a wise practice. I'd be interested in any knowledgable and informed answer.

[NightHawkZero]

Any body else remember the Virgin B747 at BigginHill Air Show (Mid 80's) ~ Did one pass through down the rwy line 100' with the gear stowed an PAX waving out the windows [returning from the USA] swooped through with throttles back at the quiet stops as I stood at the railings.........Oh! YES, memories:D

[CAVU]

Fire Him?? They should have promoted him! :eek: :D :eek: :D

[HugMonster]

The Virgin flypast at Biggin was done with company approval. Everyone (including the pax) had been briefed. The skipper was, I understand, a qualified display pilot.

What's more, Dickie baby was at Biggin that day (as was I) and watched it. After the pass, someone said "Are they coming round again?" and RB was heard to say "I hope not - think of the fuel bill" :D

[CapedCrewsAider]

Regarding bmi checking out all Capts. Right Seat, this sounds like a very unwise practice. A large number of incidents have been caused by the breakdown in CRM as a result of this.

I seem to remember in at least two fatal accidents that the recommendation was that this practice should cease.

I suspect that bmi is the onky UK jet operator to do this.

Worth a seperate thread?

[Wycombe]

....Director, it was in the mid 80's (believe it or not!) and I was there too! If I remember, it was done for a promo photo-shoot for British Car Auctions (there is still an aerial photo in the Terminal Building of the Conc flying past the Auction Centre).

As I remember, it did 2 circuits - first was a "dirty" low-approach & g/a, second was a clean, quiet fly-through, followed by that "light burners and disappear" routine. A heli hovering to the S of THR 08 took the photos.

It was publicised before-hand in the local paper, so half of Yateley was on the Common to watch!

Guess this must have been very much properly planned/approved/briefed, but I still remember the mutterings re. Rule 5 made by some (as you could not really claim that he intended to land on a 1300m runway).

Oh, and in 2000 a B1 did it, but he thought he was at Farnborough :eek: :eek:

[saywhat]

Can't understand it, it's fun, it draws attention to aviation, certainly keeps the bosses on their toes. How can you get fired for such a little thing that lasts such a short while.

[wub]

http://www.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!/open.file?id=220689 ;)

[Jet II]

Wub,

Good picture, however there something wrong with the remarks column - "Low, fast, pass"

I don't think so - a Belfast never went fast in its life - seem to remember that in my day it was called a 'Belslow'

:D

[canberra]

having served at a bombing range ive seen loads of unauthorised flypasts. the best one that ive ever heard about was the f111 pilot who had an auntie living in the highlands of scotland. not long after he arrived in the uk he decided to give auntie a flypast in his f111. his auntie lived in the village of ballater right in the middle of the balmoral avoidance zone! when he landed he was met by the base commander and he was on the next plane home.

[Specaircrew]

If you want to do a legal(ish) flypast in an airliner just do an ILS to 200ft then commence an overshoot but only put on enough power initially to stabilise at 200' until you reach the datum then apply full pwr and climb at V2. Pretty standard stuff for your average pilot. I'm assuming there's no SLF on board though!