MSc in Air Transport Management at City University

[Seaking]

Any pruners at present completing this course or have completed it?

I am considering starting later this summer and would welcome any advice,comments,etc.

Many thanks.

e.mail : [email protected]

[Final 3 Greens]

Seaking

I have not done this course, but did another MSc a few years ago.

My general experience was:

1 - Be prepared to allocate at least 12 hours per week for reading, on top of assignments and other formal stuff

2 - If you haven't done a first degree (I was a management direct entry with A Levels) then make sure you have a very supportive personal tutor to get you up to speed in academic skills.

3 - Be prepared to question what the textbooks and the lecturers say - this is a Masters degree and the uni will expect you to show mastery of the subject

If you can't find anyone through PPrune who has done the course, ask City to introduce you to two or three past students to talk to, they should have no problem doing that.

Apart from that, enjoy yourself - its a great challenge and very rewarding.
Hope these general comments will help.

F3G

[Radar]

Seaking,
I completed the MSc at City earlier this year. Great fun, great experience. I'm glad it's all behind me now but I wouldn't have missed it for the world. Drop me an e-mail at [email protected] with any specific questions. Talk to you later

[brabazon]

Why not consider the full-time or part-time MSc in Air Transport at Cranfield?

http://www.cranfield.ac.uk/coa/tech-atm/atm-msc.htm

http://www.cranfield.ac.uk/coa/tech-atm/atm-msce.htm

You will be based at an active airfield with the opportunity to do your own flying.

[Dutchie]

Yep, Cranfield get my full support. It is with university degrees the same as with Flight Schools: it is all about their reputation. i.e. if I apply to BA after having done OATS (or any of the other well known establisments..) or after Billies Flying Club (hope none such place excists but if it doies: no offence ;) ) then OATS would win hands down.

I do not understand that City aims this course specifically at pilots but I am afraid that it does not improve it's academic credetials (well in my world it doesn't that is)

Cranfield is well known for it's Academic work, consultancy, etc. so that seems to be the better choice..

Let me know what you decide!

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I'd rather be flying... :)

[Flyin' High]

I am just about to finish the course at Cranfield (working on my Thesis at the moment) and have enjoyed every minute ...

As an aside we had a look at the cost for the MSc at City and it was in the region of £7500 for EU students ... the Cranfield course is nothing like that (unless it has changed for this year)

Also as far as I am aware the closing date for entries for October this year has passed but it is still worth contacting them.

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Speak your mind - It proves you have one! :)

[snooky]

Just one thing is puzzling me.

With all these amazing courses on Air Transport Management being taken, how come in the real world so many large airlines are a complete management shambles?

[exeng]

Nice one Snooky!


Regards
Exeng

[Final 3 Greens]

Snooky

You are are looking at causation and effect; you have identified the cause; the effect is to spawn all these courses!

[RRtay]

I checked into Cranfield (£13,000) and City (£8500) and decided on ERAU distance learning centre, all the above are fairly new at MsC in Air transport while Embry has been doing this since 1928

[STONKERS]

I am mid-way through the MSc at City and would thoroughly recommend it. Teaching is of a very high quality and by recognised industry experts. I cannot comment on the quality of the Cranfield course any more than its students can comment on City. I would though dispute the feeling that City is only for Pilots, I have found the attendees to come from many areas of the industry, something which adds to the appeal and value. Bottom line which is why we are all doing it of course, is that I have made numerous quality contacts who are impressed with the course and are willing to employ on the strength of it.

[topunicyclist]

I was at Cranfield a couple of years ago doing the MSc in Air Transport and would definitely recommend it, if they are prepared to work hard!

[alosaurus]

Caution-read what Finals 3 Greens said very carefully.An MSc is a huge consumer of time and effort,it can destroy your social/family life (I did mine on a part time basis over five years).
The nature of an MSc can vary widely.I once saw a thesis on "The Mating Habits Of Wide Bodied Midges".This is the kind of stuff which gets academics a bad name.
Someone once told me that for an MSc you learn more and more about less and less until you know absolutely everything about f*#k all.
Choose your course carefully!

[snooky]

And then you're a fully qualified airline manager.

[Hector_Pascal]

Did the Cranfield Msc about 8 years ago and really enjoyed it. They have good cheap accommodation (especially for marrieds)and the money we saved on mortgage/rent and rates etc. over the year basically made the course free!! Don't know the story today, but things I remember include the fact that real airline management never seemed interested in the courses, the students all came from wide backgrounds, but not airline management. However, there was a short course over a couple days, when managements were invited to participate in the airline management simulator created by the staff. They basically set the fares and capacity over an accelerated period of time and reacted to each others inputs. Funny, but they always drove each other bust by setting too low fares in the pursuit of shafting the other teams, could never resist it apparently, even though they could have co-existed profitably together in the simulation.
Anyway, in the years since then I have watched office politics and egos do more decision making than analysis and reason at airlines. But maybe that's the nature of the beast, as even the academic theory didn't fare too well when our Professor met the real world with a bang when he tried to sort out Olympic.

Overall, I would recommend people to do the MSc only if they find the subject interesting and the want the satisfaction of achieving a hard worked goal. I wouldn't advise you to do it solely for advancement and career success. That would be like doing a maths course so you can win the lottery! Do it to enjoy and you won't go wrong!

[Blacksheep]

Hector, your last paragraph is right on the button. You study at post graduate level to stretch your brain but academic work isn't the same as professional training. If you're lucky someone, somewhere might give you a job on the strength of it, but in general airline managers don't have academic qualifications and aren't very interested in anyone who has.

Education sharpens your mind and so makes you more effective at work. That's the real advantage. One day an educated work force may evict the hobbyists but for now its the hobbyists who run this industry. They will continue to do so for quite some time yet.

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Through difficulties to the cinema

[Zeus]

Have to agree with all of the above. It depends on why you want to do the course. If you are thinking of going into airline management it may not be a help.

I tried something similar and applied to British Airways and the BAA for their graduate entry scheme. I did not even get invited for an interview. On ringing BA up for some feedback I was told that they did not want anyone with "pre-conceived ideas". They would much rather you had a degree in geology.

Having said all that if you want to get into airline management a degree in law or accountancy seems to be the thing these days.

[toto]

I did the MSc in Air Transport Management few years ago at Cranfield (full time). Great course. However I am still not convinced this will help with a flying career... I am working as an F/O now (medium size UK airline) and unless you are very senior in a "major", I do not think it will make a diference. Take it as a (very) long term project.
Other views on this point from ex-Cranfield (ATM) students are very welcome!

[Clive]

I'm not sure if this topic is a wind up for some inter-uni rivalry or not, but here is my 2 pence worth.

It seems to me that those prepared to berate one university course for the promotion of another have probably decided upon their particular course and insitution for all the wrong reasons. This toffee nosed attitude that "I am attending 'X' university therefore my degree must be much better" is a load of crock (excuse the french). Any degree, both under graduate or post graduate, is worth only what the individual is prepared to put into it! You will reap what you sow.... and the quality of the insitution will have little bearing upon your harvest.

I have compleated an under graduate degree (BAv) and will soon finish my post graduate degree (MSc) from City University. Completion of both of these degrees has seen my pending acceptance into a PhD programme at one of Australia's premier universities. They certainly did not question what insitution I used for my initial studies.

To the origional 'poster' of this thread, the important thing is that should you decide to partake in studies at any of the fine institutions offering degrees in Aviation studies then (as other posters have said) be prepared for a bit of "head down and tail up" but also be prepared for some of the most rewarding, and relevant, work you will ever undertake. Your "big picture" will become very much larger and your personal fulfilment (see Maslow's hierarchy of human needs) will be boundless.

My MSc was undertaken at City university and I have nothing but praise for this course. You will find the administration very understanding of the role we have as aircrew, and the pressures that brings, and you will find the quality of lecturers/facilitators excellent, and the variety of participants amazing, and very interesting. Research all options and make your choice on more than just a "name".

Good luck,

Clive.

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Life is what happens to you while you make plans - enjoy it!

[snooky]

Hector and Blacksheep.

Sorry if my previous postings were a bit flippant.
I think you've answered my question though. These courses are obviously purely academic exercises with little relation to the real world.

The fact that real management is ruled by egos and office politics explains why it is such a shambles.
Maybe these courses would be more relevent if this aspect were tackled. If as was mentioned this type of course has been running since 1928, surely someone should have got the hang of it by now.

[This message has been edited by snooky (edited 03 July 2001).]

[Tarmach]

Lets face it academic qualifications don't seem to count for much in this industry unless you are going for CEP etc. Experience is what really counts. Although saying this, degrees and postgrad degrees do give candidates transferable skills such as the use of IT and communication skills that they can bring into the workplace. But why study for a postgrad degree in management albeit aviation managment. Many managers that Ive met either have no formal qualifications or a degree say in geology! Wouldn't people be better off studying say natural sciences, law or accountancy that you can easily transfer into the aviation workplace but have their own separate fields as well!

[Flyin' High]

RRTay.... I question your figures... I can confirm that the course at Cranfield DOES NOT cost £13000 (if you are an EU student), the course fees are less than £3000.... but City Course fees are in the region of £8000 as you report.

This is not meant as a "Cranfield is better" comment or any way belittle the City course... as I say I am currently on the Cranfield Course and none of the memebers of the Course members feel any sort of rivalry with City...

As for jobs, we are inundated with companies offering interviews (as are City, I understand), but as far as the Cranfield Course is concerned the offers are NOT coming from airlines..... especially not for operational positions.... the opportunities are analyst positions with Aviation Consultants, manufacturers or within Airline Marketing Depts..... I therefore feel that the "Generic" manager describe here as the Ego or engages in Office Politics, has in fact become this way not due to education but due to progressing though the ranks and having to be ruthless to progress (I offer no opinion as to whether this is a good or bad way to progress - I simply report that as far as I am concerned there are no airline managment positions being offered to MSc grads (at least not straight from the Course)

Hector Pascal ... the Professor you mention is the only person who was able to make Olympic any sort of profit for more than 20 years..... he completely turned the company round and had he not been a victim of the political situation in Greece I doubt that Olymic would be in the dire straits it finds itself at the moment.

Flyin' High

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Speak your mind - It proves you have one! :)

[Hector_Pascal]

Oh Yes, don't get me wrong...Rigas-Top Banana
I was just stating what happened.

[The Guvnor]

Have you considered the IATA MBA at Concordia University, Montreal? It's distance learning, but includes a couple of stints over there. An MBA is probably more useful management-wise than an MSc.

As for Cranfield's fees, this is from their site and applies to the Executive MSc in Air Transport (nb 3 year course instead of the usual two year one):

The following is based on anticipated rates for 2000 - 2003. Actual fees may well be subject to variation.

a) An annual registration fee of £1660 to cover tuition and supervision
b) Attendance at eight modules @ £950 each
c) Flights in the College's Jetstream laboratory charged at £500

If the course is taken over a three year period, total fees would be £13080. Weekday lunches, tea, coffee and the course dinner, held towards the end of each module, are included in the fees.

The full time course fees are as follows:

The fees for students who started in October 1998 were £2,610 for EU students and £15,000 for non-EU students. In addition to the fees candidates should allow about £5,000 for living expenses during the year.

[This message has been edited by The Guvnor (edited 05 July 2001).]

[Seaking]

Well thanks to all for the variety of answers shown to my question.Interesting replies!

As has been pointed out research into this sort of thing is a must as far as i am concerned.In terms of acedemic qualifications at the end,time committed to the work and travel versus family committments and the location of the course re travel and my presentlocation( based in the middle east) all of these as well as obvious cost involved are of great importance.

I will take a look at the Cranfield course as i am familiar with the area and have accommodation only five minutes drive away so it is a definite possibility.

My main purpose in considering this course is that i am looking to both exercise my brain and as a possibly insurance policy(one never knows when either the medical or the job might be gone),i am keen to broaden my knowlage of the industry we are involved in,i am not an airline pilot but would like to understand what happens and see what points can be adapted to my area of operations(helicopters)especially regarding safety,aircraft requirements,integration of a the tiltrotor type aircraft into the mainstream operation at airports and their adaptability to commuter operations,etc.

So if any one has any further replies or comments i would be happy to hear from them,i will e.mail those that have asked me to do so and maybe if anyone is reading this and even if they are not involved in this kind of study but would like to give their opinion on the thing in general we could get an interesting debate going on the subject of acedemic qualifications and their relevance to the industry as it is starting to evolve almost 100 years after Kittyhawk.

Also i thing inter school rivalry is a good thing if it is kept to a sensible level and does'nt come down to a mine is bigger than yours contest !!!

Thanks again

[Flyin' High]

Seaking..... If it is specifically helicopters then the Cranfield Course (at least this year) has had very little mention of rotorcraft.... mentioned in 2 lectures. :mad: :mad:

It will certainly broaden your knowledge of the industry... there are 36 people on the full time course... with 12 staff .... from all walks of life and of all ages... I would say there are three main experience Catagories ... one third engineering background, one third econonomists and the rest "Others" (ATC, OPs, CAA, Military etc)

The full time course is certainly the most cost effective way of obtaining the MSc, but as you point out it depends on family commitments too ....

FH :cool: