Debonair

[s084453]

Remeber these guys? What was the real flaw in their operation

[cowboy]

high costs and low fares and therefore yields - simple as that

could always start a debate about how 146s are not suitable for a low cost operation as well...

[Herod]

One could, but since buzz is making a success of a low-fares 146 operation, it would be pretty pointless. More likely a case of "wrong place, wrong time", a bit of bad luck and maybe the odd planning error.

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The future's yellow; powered by purple!

[sky unlimited]

Wrong place - wrong time - and....
Debonair did not only operate 146's but was also hiring, at high costs, some F50's and F100's from wetlease-companies like Denim Air and EAE.
When you want to make a succes out of a low-cost-carrier never-ever hire high-priced turboprops instead of operating your own lost-cost-jet-fleet like the 146's (yes indeed, the 146's are very capable to operate on shorthaul routes at a minimum price!)

[cowboy]

buzz are indeed a low fares operation - but not low cost - big difference

it was largely a klmuk rebrand

and are they really making a success of it??

still not aware of any operator successfully using 146s in a low COST setup

[antonovman]

the guy who ran it has screwed up everything he's touched
i worked for him years ago
one week they were ticketless, next week ticketed
one week full service next week nothing
he didnt have any kind of direction

[s084453]

Thanks guys. Wasn't AB Airlines around at this time too, with their problems? Different problems I guess. Not a good period obviuosly.

[PAXboy]

When Debon folded, the MD screamed to the media, "It was the big boys wot dun me in."

I wrote a letter that was published in The Independentas I was working in MUC at the time and I live 11 miles from LTN. I tried to use them but they were useless, so I went with LH, something like 14 return trips in a year that they might have had from me - but they could not run to time!

At MUC, you would sit with doors closed and wait for maybe one hour before starting. This was all blamed on ATC. I understand that they had no fixed slots and were at the whim of everybody. (Someone might like to comment?)

I said in the letter that, if after three years in service, an airline cannot run to time - it will fail!

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A window seat on the sunny side of the aircraft, please!

[This message has been edited by PAXboy (edited 08 June 2001).]

[piston broke]

Who actually ran Debonair? Was Franco really in charge?

Where did the investment money actually come from?

Why/how did the CEO manage to close the operation apparently unilaterally?

Was it ever a bona fide trading company at all?

?

[FlapsOne]

Paxboy

You obviously do not even remotely understand Eurocontrol. If pax are on board with the doors closed the crew are only waiting for one thing.......ATC clearance. You have to board pax on time in case the slot changes at short notice. If this happens it's pointless having the pax in the terminal and 15 mins to a new departure slot. Missing that new slot could result in even more delays than originally anticipated.

What on earth is a fixed slot?

[boredcounter]

Hhhhmmmmmmmm
One of our commercial gurus is ex-Deb......
Any Ops jobs?

[PAXboy]

After travelling in Europe for 26 years I think that I understand the basics: Needing to be ready to go at the whistle + a landing slot identified and matched before departure. This often entails being 'banged up' for extended periods of time. Hence I always travel with a bottle of water and a flapjack to see me through these delays.

The reference to 'fixed slot' comes from a story that circulated during their brief life. It was stated that they paid a lower landing fee by dint of allowing their slot to be moved, if others with agreed slots were delayed. This may well be an urban myth, which is why I asked if someone might want to comment. I may yet get an answer.

If I failed to ask the question politely enough, then I apologise.

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A window seat on the sunny side of the aircraft, please!

[FlapsOne]

Paxboy

There is, and as far as I know, has never been such a thing as a 'fixed slot'. Eurocontrol do not give favour for higher fees.

Very few airports in Europe have landing slots. LHR does, FFM and maybe a couple of others but 99% of the time the landing slot does not have any effect on the dearture time.

The slots normally come about due to the high intensity of traffic through a certain region/route which may or may not be part of an arrival/departure route to or from an airport.

Sometimes, and only sometimes, it's possible to resolve the allocated departure delay by re-filing a new flight plan using a different route (assuming you have the info as to where the hold up was on the original plan) or the same route at a different flight level.

The bottom line is, when traffic density is high, everyone (whether BA or Honest John's one plane wonder) can suffer the pain and misery of slot delays and there's s@d all anyone can do about it!

[PAXboy]

Thank you Flaps One, very helpful indeed. It confirms that the 'information' (aka excuse) that I was given was utter tripe!

This means that my accusation of DebonAir being unable to meet their own time-table may have even more weight.

The charge that he had the wrong machines for the job, appears to have been a major factor in the failure of the line.

No one imagines that a company fails due to a single cause normally, there will be several.

[euroboy]

I worked as Cabin Crew for 16 months with Debonair after some 10 years with another carrier.
The basic routes they operated LTN-MGL, CIA (later FCO) MAD,MUC and some of the main land european routes were busy but I have no idea what the ticket yield was.

There was no clear product with them that the customer or travel agent could idenify to sell the service, ie. was it low cost or a regular airline. The business class product ABC was very poor and never took off.

When I joined, Debonair operated 2 BAe 146 for Air France which was 1 of the easiest contracts for them to do. Air France provided the French speaking cabin crew who did PAs and general helped the 2 Debonair cabin crew. Swissair contract was flown using 1 146, this proving a little harder as no Swissair cabin crew and the routes were to VCE and BLQ from ZRH. So Italian speakers where sort. Now its well know fact British people have a poor linguist skills but we are improving....slowly. So Italians where taken on, whos English was not always that good. The Italian Cabin Crew were based out in Italy and were paid nightstop allowances. When this was pointed out that the Luton based cabin crew when based in Luton did not get night stop allowances when night stopping in Luton we (I) were/was told that this was fair. The night stop allowance in Italy was 80,000 Lira. So every night whist at home in VCE or BLQ they all picked up this 80,000 Lira.
This was on top of £1.00 p hr flight pay whilst on duty and a basic of £9,000.

The next contract taken on was the Lufthansa contract for 5 146 based in MUC. The AF contract had to be finished, and the a/c had to have ovens fitted and seats removed 96 to 80 seats. 2 cabin crew operated a LH service....this was change to 3 just before the airline went down. Also the MUC-BCN and MGL-MUC routes had to be dropped. Again Language speakers where recruited this time German. This proved difficult for a small airline to find crew suitable. Also more 146`s had to be found. When I started with them they had 7 146`s on the airlines demise some 13 146 and 1 737-300.

The other problems started when their own scheduled routes were dropped the timetables did not change hence the a/c sat around various airports in europe waiting to go back to LTN. All destinations except MAD were nightstops for crew and aircraft.

Debonair took on a number of charters however they never seemed to operated themselves..usually AB, European or on occassions BM.
They never had enough a/c for the number of routes they operated. MGL-MUC busy route was Denim Air F50, and in the last summer the LTN-FCO was European 1-11 operated. (No F100 were ever operated by Debonair)
The LTN-BCN was operated by AB for a time and the LGW-BCN started.

The 737-300 started operating on Air Foyles AOC but was never used to it full. It did LTN-BCN-LGW-BCN-LTN.

There were a few people who lack experience who had worked there way to management positions very quickly and their inexperienced showed when things went wrong.
The crewing department had crews sitting in MUC being paid allowances for days on end, only spending days in the hotel, or operating 1 sector.
I would never say the big boys made Debonair go bust. It was poor management, no product idea or knowledge, light ideas thrown in but not properly researched for example new livery, design team to redesign the cabin crew uniform-the airline was only 3 years old! The yearly company birthday party, upmarket venue which was free including wine, but pay bar. Grabbing work (charters) etc... which the airline could never of flown because the a/c where doing something else and had to be sub out.

Debonair could have surved if the scheduled routes where non nightstopping, the airline focus its self on what product it wanted to offer and do the "job" eg. the business class product should have never been introducted as no food as such was offered. A plastic bag containing a roll butter plasic cup and powdered milk with a choice of ham cheese for lunch, or a choice of crossiant for bfast evening meal was a bag of crisps and a poor quality prepacketaged cake. This was Business Class!!!! Free bar was thrown in. The non Business Class paxs same food but a pay bar, although soft drinks hot bevs free.

Debonair ran in a form in the US Hawaiian islands but known as Discovery. Had the same livery as Debonair used 146 a/c and believe cabin crew uniforms. Perhaps any old Discovery crews can shed light on this venture?
I hope this helps.........and the lession here is never run an airline as a game!



[This message has been edited by euroboy (edited 29 June 2001).]

[PAXboy]

MANY thanks euroboy - the truth will out! I only used the LTN-MUC service a couple of times because it was so poor and the cost higher than mainlines into LHR!

A English colleague of mine in MUC did use them as he lived further away from LHR than I do. I once heard him speak to DebonAir on the phone to make a booking and he said (picking up his puple plastic FF card), "I am a member of your frequent sufferer program."

Summed it up!

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A window seat on the sunny side of the aircraft, please!

[PENNINE BOY]

It was agreat company with great people and a great atmosphere!

A pity the new management team didnt get in 6 months earlier, if they had i am sure they would have been round today.

The introduction of the 737 did not help,it was allways tech and the 146 could not cover the paxs, ie hotac + flights on other carriers,cant wait for the next bash at the flying club in sept!!

[euroboy]

Sorry I forgot to say, in the last 6-8 months new Managers were brought in; both on the pilots and cabin crew side. They all had a wealth of experience. With this new management I became a SEP and Secruity Trainer and from looking at there efforts close up, they worked very hard on ALL aspects, trying to improve and correct previous mistakes. If I say it was an up hill battle I sure you understand where I am coming from.