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View Full Version : Fare's fair ... Scottish pax being ripped off?


The Guvnor
25th March 2001, 13:25
From today's Sunday Times:

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Air fares 'rip-off' crusade wings it
to Westminster

Dean Nelson


Fares fair

THE campaign against the "rip-off" air fares
that Scots are charged to fly to America will
this week move to Westminster and the
Scottish parliament.

John McFall, a Labour MP for Dumbarton, has written to the
Speaker of the House of Commons calling for a debate on the
controversial "sum of sectors" rule which means that Scots are
charged £100 more to fly to the United States than passengers
flying to American cities from Amsterdam.

Members of the Scottish parliament's enterprise and lifelong
learning committee will call for a Holyrood inquiry into the
anomaly and also into the lack of direct air routes from
Scotland at an emergency meeting to discuss the tourism
crisis on Tuesday.

Their moves are in support of The Sunday Times Fares Fair for
Scotland campaign, launched last week to encourage more
direct flights to America and European cities from Scottish
airports, and for more - and cheaper - internal routes to the
Highlands and Islands.

Following the launch of the campaign, senior politicians and
leading tourism figures pledged their support and called for a
meeting to explain the issues to members of the Scottish
parliament.

George Reid, deputy presiding officer of the Scottish
parliament, said Scotland's lack of direct connections to the
outside world was highlighted by the "humiliation" of the
parliament's delegates to next month's US Tartan Day
celebrations having to fly to Washington on the Irish flag carrier
Aer Lingus.

MSPs Patricia Ferguson, Marilyn Livingstone, Kay Ullrich, Nora
Radcliffe and David McLetchie, the Tory leader, will have to wait
more than two hours in Dublin for a connecting flight to
Washington.

The Scottish Tourism Forum, which represents almost all of
Scotland's area tourism boards, Scottish airports, the British
Airports Authority and the train operator GNER, threw its
weight behind the campaign.

Ivan Broussine, the forum's chief executive, said the lack of
direct flights was not only inconveniencing Scottish tourists, it
was also restricting the potential number of incoming visitors.

In a written statement to The Sunday Times, Lord Macdonald
said the government was committed to ending the sum of
sectors rule, but would not do so until America opened up its
internal routes linking American cities to British airlines.

-----

I am Managing Director of a company that
represents brands of liquor and tobacco
throughout the United Kingdom. We operate
out of offices in Glasgow and London.

The cost of flying with either British Airways or British Midland
between our offices is extremely high. The price of both airlines
are similar. However, it is only when I visit our brand owners in
Poland, the United States or France that I realise that there is
a financial penalty to operating a business from Scotland.

The cost of a normal scheduled flight from Glasgow to
Heathrow is £286 return. British Midland operated a flight to
Warsaw in Poland from Gatwick at £149 return which is roughly
twice the distance of a flight from Glasgow to Heathrow.

I, of course, had to make my way to Gatwick at extra cost.

When travelling in the United States. I quite often make
journeys of 500 to 1,000 miles at a cost of less than $100
each.

It is difficult to compare the cost of flights by their distances. I
believe it has more to do with amount of free competition on
certain routes. British Airways has a dominant position at
Heathrow and they control the pricing for this route.

Ricky Agnew
Marblehead Brand Development

I have been travelling across the Atlantic regularly since 1975.
One year I was able to fly from Glasgow which meant a cheap
bus trip from Edinburgh rather than the expensive early morning
flight to Heathrow or Gatwick. But the flights were scrapped
because business travellers were not using them.

I want to be able to fly direct from Edinburgh to America without
having to go via London or Brussels which adds many hours to
my travel and wears a much larger hole in my pocket. I must
have spent tens of thousands of pounds extra over the years
just because I live in Scotland rather than the south of England.
Why should we Scots be penalised? We have airports perfectly
suitable for international flights in Edinburgh and Glasgow yet
we are not allowed to fly West.

I now fly a few times a year to Cincinnati with Delta Airlines and
if the flights were direct from Scotland I would not have the
many hours of delay between flights I now have just because
the Edinburgh to Gatwick flights are so infrequent. I flew
Edinburgh to Heathrow last year and had a nail biting time
wondering if the bus connection was going to make it to
Gatwick in time (it did with only half an hour before departure!).

It really annoys me that companies like British Airways and
Virgin enforce a journey time of 15 or more hours instead of
eight if I was able to fly direct from Edinburgh.

Karl Ian Ransome
4 Cleekim Road
Edinburgh EH15 3HU
[email protected]

I am glad to see that The Sunday Times has launched this
campaign, as the lack of direct international flights from
Scotland is ridiculous.

I have written to many UK and foreign airlines about this issue,
but they claim that routes from Scotland would not be
economically viable. I find this hard to believe.

How can there be no demand for nonstop flights between
Glasgow and/or Edinburgh and Milan and/or Rome, when there
is such a large Italian population in Scotland as well as many
business and tourism links?

This logic can also be applied to links with China, India, and
Pakistan, as well as major European business centres such as
Geneva, Madrid, Stockholm, and Munich.

Alan Partridge
Clarkston, Glasgow

Your article of March 18 appears to indicate that British
Airways etc. are not permitted to offer discounted or free
connections. This is not the case. British Airways clearly
indicate in various brochures for North America and the Far
East for example that free connections are included. In recent
years, we have flown from Aberdeen to Tampa with British
Airways. The two main deciding factors have been no
connection cost (BA's free connecting flight) and automatic
transfer of luggage. Virgin could do neither of these although
they were our preferred operator.

You ran an article some time ago on flight supplements from
Scotland. Some months ago we investigated Aberdeen to
Jersey. The usual supplement was about £100-£110 although
we came across one at £129 (if memory serves me correctly).

As an aside, it is well known and documented that the airports
and airspace of the south east of England are overcrowded. Yet
the airlines, airports and government appear to do very little to
alleviate the situation by developing other airports as departure
points.

Manchester and its additional runway will be quoted as an
example of regionalisation, but it is still a four or five hour drive
from the central belt of Scotland and flight connections are just
as expensive and far less frequent than to Heathrow or
Gatwick.

Ken Anderson

Your article in today's Sunday Times would have benefitted
from additional information. If Jane had flown KLM to
Amsterdam then New York, she would probably pay less than
Mearvin flying KLM from Amsterdam to New York (or indeed
her BA Edinburgh/London/New York fare). The argument works
the other way round for the Dutch.

The caption on Glasgow Airport picture is untrue. Continental
fly daily from Glasgow to New York and are often as not the
cheapest route. Air Canada fly direct Glasgow to Toronto, then
connect to North America. Icelandair have a good service
Glasgow to USA via Reykjavik, which is at least all going in the
same direction. So why don't the 58,583 business travellers
and 180,867 holidaymakers use these routes and save at least
four hours of travelling? Probably for the same reasons that
they don't travel on easyJet or Ryanair!

John Caldwell

In September 2000 I flew with Icelandair from
Glasgow-Reykjavik-Baltimore return. The fare was £346.
Two colleagues flew on the same day from
Heathrow-Reykjavik-Baltimore return.Their fare was £279.
Brian Wilson, MP, has recently raised the matter with
Icelandair, Thomas Cook and the Department of Transport.

No further action is anticipated.

Name withheld

The solution to avoiding extra charges via Heathrow is to travel
with Icelandair via Reykjavik or Aer Lingus via Dublin. I have
even found it cheaper to go with Air France via Paris.

The above only add a couple of hours onto the journey but the
average fare is approximately £220

Bob Johnstone
</font>

INKJET
25th March 2001, 13:59
Yes they are a rip off. Things may improve as Manchester opens up. BMI must think so, as from Monday 26/03/01 they are upping the daily rotations to 5 from EDI, and have just put a jet (Emb135) on services from GLA, with jet(145) already operating from ABZ.
I feel the problem with flights from Scotland to the States is twofold, BAA have no real incentive to develope these airports as this would eat into LHR/LGW traffic, plus they get a double bite at flogging over priced goods at (say) EDI then London. plus to lots of pax handling fees. The other problem is that Scotland is just not big enough in terms of population to justify the range of destination that would be required to provied a proper service, so until the long range versions of cheap to operate regional jets at 80 seats(but with a lot more leg room than current offerings)become available, to do what the 757 did to the old 747 market, then its a case of via London,Manchester or Amesterdam.

Devils Advocate
25th March 2001, 14:27
Dear oh dear, it's bad enough that the Scots keep accepting millions of pounds of English tax payers money, but they've now got the cheek to think that airfares from their pathetic little airports should also be subsidised such that they don't have the inconvenience of having to cross Hadrian's wall and rub shoulders with those dreadful Sassenachs south'o the boarder !

Yes you can fly from various English airports for far less, but them's the economy's of scale and somehow I'm sure that if an airline thought it viable to run a trans-Atlantic service from the bonnie bonnie land, they would do so - but surely only an idiot would run one on a poor financial footing.
Uhm, speaking of idiots, howz the Caledonian Wings project going Guv ? Perhaps a Government - i.e. Govern as in Glasgow - subsidy might be available ? We'll then see just how keen the Scottish parliament are to put their hands in their own pockets to back this - ah but hold on, that'd then be mostly English money that they'd be spending wouldn't it ?! Scotland = A proud and independent nation, but propped up with somebody else's dosh.

Ah well, if they don't like it, they can always move south - and almost as proof, there's plenty of Scots folks living in the bus shelters of Brighton - don’tcha know, it's warmer darn sarf!

Ok, I'll take the tongue out of my cheek now....... ;)

Incoming !!!!

Ps. The clocks Sprang forwards last night, and there's now 216 nights until they go back again to UTC - and why ? To please a half-dozen Scots sheep farmers, is why; But no doubt in future, with no sheep to tend, we'll be able to stick to BST from here on in - so some good might come out of F&M after all.

euroboy
25th March 2001, 14:58
British Midland operated Warsaw from LHR not LGW!!!

Tom the Tenor
25th March 2001, 16:21
Similar sort of problems here in Cork, Ireland but we have not been allowed to compete with Dublin and Shannon on the North Atlantic market. No reason for the self satisfied airport managers, Aer Rianta to do anything to lose out on all their greedy booty through DUB. The airlines are at it as well. Why should it cost more to travel to LHR from ORK than DUB with EI? Why are there so few direct to Europe services from Cork when the likes of RYR now have Charleroi and Hahn flights from Shannon. What a joke! EI and Aer Rianta are only too happy to rip Cork and south Munster people off with their high fares and then screw them a second time by forcing them to hub through Dublin. We in Cork know only too well what is being done to the people in Scotland with rip off fares. For completeness I must add this summer for the first time there are a short series of direct charter flights to Boston from Cork beginning in June using Boeing 757 aircraft of North American Airlines. The Cork travel agents have only now begun to offer very pricey tickets on the service, no doubt keeping their little arrangements with the like of EI and BA intact.

------------------
What we want is a bit of Pop Music, none of this Beethoven!!

minogue
25th March 2001, 16:51
Rightly or wrongly we live in a capitalist society. Quite simply if there is a market demand on which a profit can be turned, somebody will fill it, if not they won't.

BA tried a scotland-NY service a couple of years back and lost a fortune. If BM thought they could make money they would fly it, especially as they are currently excluded from operating LHR-NY.

As far as european services are concerned, scotland gets hit from the double whammy of 1) limited demand and 2) its actually a bloody long way which means it is difficult to get enough rotations out of a smaller a/c to pay the fixed costs.

Finally who wants a load of drunk smelly hairy kilt wearers spoiling the a/c interiors anyway.

Blue Boy
25th March 2001, 17:18
Minogue,

You started your post off in a very logical manner. I actually found myself agreeing with what you had to say.
To finish it off in the manner that you did is childish & pathetic. .

Nothing need be said about the lout's who travel abroad with the sole intent of supporting Engerland!

What! In this weather!
25th March 2001, 17:55
I agree with Blue Boy. I thought people that used this site were supposed to be semi-intelligent, at least.
I'm actually English living, and working, in Scotland, and the people that I call friends now, Scottish friends, are some of the nicest I have met.
If you want things to get personal, I'm sure we all have things we can say about the people of southern England! Let's all grow up though, and act in a way that becomes our profession.

Anti Skid On
25th March 2001, 18:22
What a pile of sh'ite some of you people write - millions of pounds of taxpayers money????? What short memories we have; whilst the south east was growing hops and eating jellied eels, the Scots were innovating, developing technology, e.g. modern roads (Macadam), steam power (Watt), television (Logie Baird), antibiotics (Fleming). As well as this Scottish business venture led to it being the most productive and income earner during Victorian times. The residue of this funded the 'deprived and impoverished areas' like Devon, Cornwall, Norfolk, etc.

Add the oil and gas reserves, the assets of which have been used to fund public sell offs (BT, Gas, Railtrack) and the unemployment benefits of many when a certain Mrs. T. was in power and happy to destroy our manufacturing base (and I mean the whole UK here).

Did I forget to mention that most of the UK financial institutions are Scottish in origin - their income, whilst located in the South East, benefits the whole of the UK.

Yes, the arguments of supply and demand are reasonable, but incentives should be given in terms of making regional travel more achievable. It should not be cheaper to fly to New York from LBA via CDG or BRU, than it is from MAN, but it is. Interestingly, if you want to fly from FRA to the US, often the cheapest fare are via the same - its the fare system that is way wrong. Why can't it be based on distance and class???

touch&go
25th March 2001, 18:45
Anti Skid.......you've been sucked in.

SOPS
25th March 2001, 18:57
I think Logie was an Australian

Devils Advocate
25th March 2001, 19:08
Exactly... "Here mister, can I have my hook back !?"

Best ruse I ever saw, early one morning whilst walking out to the a/c at EDI, with the handling agent in tow, my front seat colleague says "Here, watch this !"

He then announces, "Uhm, what's that ?" reaches down and (apparently) picks up a piece of paper - which turns out to be a crumpled-up £20 note.

He makes a huge (almost over the top) show of his find - all to the enormous chagrin of the handling agent - a brilliant wind-up, if ever I saw one.

Better still was when both the dispatcher and the fuel guy independently arrived in the flight-deck seriously peeved that a (already highly paid) flight-crew chap had managed to obtain such an undeserved betterment !

Ps. I'm sure that a certain PPRuNe administrator will agree, since he had his beers nicked from the fwd hold at EDI, that this is poetic justice !!!

dallas dude
25th March 2001, 19:39
Guvnor,

Ever heard of a bloke called Andrew Carnegie?
He became great by NOT posting rubbish here over TWO THOUSAND TIMES.

Do yourself a favour and give John McFall a ring. Clearly the two of you have so much real world business experience that you are made for each other (although you may have to defer your preference for the Tristar as apparently he's got a cousin that can get him a deal on some Tridents). The two of you should be able to lose your kilts pretty quickly by a process called market demands.

Seriously, your credibility is beyond (dis) belief. You can fool some of the people some of the time but eventually you'll run out of nonsense to impress with. I'm guessing it'll be sometime next April!

dd

Mercator
25th March 2001, 19:45
SOPS

I am sure Logie was a bear!

touch&go
25th March 2001, 20:23
Marcator....Huggy was the bear

PocaHostie
26th March 2001, 02:58
Devil's Advocate.......!!

Your comments are typical of the parochial claptrap that is endemic in English society to-day.......i.e, "Anything and anyone from North of Watford Gap is cr@p"......!!!!

If every Scottish based company (Or companies operating IN Scotland)paid it's taxes through Company's House in Edinburgh as opposed to London.......The true picture of just how much of a surplus paid to the UK Exchequer by the Scottish economy would be apparant and have Tony Blair's Tory Party cr@pping themselves at the next election...!!!

Remember that the Royal Bank Of Scotland owns NatWest and a very big slice of HSBC... Also it won't be long before the B of S picks up Abbey National......!!!!

In any case your tones have racist overtures and you deserve to be booted uncerimoniously off of the forum.......!!!!!

------------------
The Guv's got it wrong...
Happiness Is....A WARM Hostie

Anti Skid On
26th March 2001, 03:04
Well said Poca - and as for sitting next to a drunken kilt wearer, etc... when was the last time any Scottish fans (rugby, football, etc.) were arrested, rioted, behaved in a totally disrespectful manner, exhibited xenophobia. More likely your air rager will be from Essex or Greater Manchester.

We might not win the World Cup (7 out of the 10 host nations have!), but we have the best behaved and most respected fans.

Devils Advocate
26th March 2001, 11:32
ROFLOL - Pocal what's the matter, someone rattle your cage !?

W.r.t.... <font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">In any case your tones have racist overtures.... </font>

Do they ? So go on, spell it out for me then .....

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">....and you deserve to be booted uncerimoniously off of the forum.......!!!!!</font>

Somehow, I don't think that will happen ;)

Still ROFLOL.

Ps. "Come on mister, give us me hook back ?!"

porpoise
26th March 2001, 15:16
There are on million English people living in Scotland representing 20% of the population. I have no problem with this, I'm glad they have seen the light. the Glasgow-Newyork service would have made a profit. The Cargo alone from hi-tech silicon glen and fresh salmon were paying for the flight. Only initially nobody told Cargo that is was a 767 not a 757. BA prefers to send it by road to London rather than air. I'm sure the treasury massages the figures with regard to Scotland. Just as they bribed the Scottish MPs of the time to vote for union, causing riots in the streets of Edinburgh by people who recognised they were being sold down the river. I don't get offended by the invective of the English contributors here though. If they weren't bashing us it would be the frogs or the krauts or the yanks. I remember the self-pity of the English at France 98. They only wanted to be loved but nobody seemed to want to know them in the community of nations. Oh how they whined as they rioted there way through Marseille fighting women and children, but drawing the line at riot police. Meanwhile those that wanted to be served were wearing Scotland Tops as I recall. Maybe you could answer one question for me. If Scotland is such a drain on your economy, why do you try so desperately hard to hang on to it?

foghorn
26th March 2001, 15:48
Christ, you jocks are a bit sensitive, aren't you?