U.S. Pilots

[flyle]

U.S. pilots are the best in the world by far. We build the best aircraft both civilian and military. It is the way that all countries other than the U.S. grade the level of pilot skill that everyone simply doesn't understand. The U.S.A. promotes aviation, encourages it in every way and even has over 20 Universities across the nation teaching aeronautics. Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University being the best on the planet.
All countries other than the U.S. makes thier tests hard to make sure a large number of candidates fail. Its the way they weed out most of the people. Your governments do not want aviation to grow in there country. Hard tests on the ground do nothing for you in the air.

Whoever took my last message off about this subject cannot handle the truth because of where they were trained. See ya.

[SKYDRIFTER]

Flyle -

You need to study up for a drug test!

While American pilots are fairly good, there is no way that the average American pilot can touch the expertise of either British or Japanese pilots.

I'm a proud American, but there is no way I'd consider trying for the Canadian or British ATP. Their standards are not a matter of refresher training or local knowledge; they want that much more professional knowledge and skill from their pilots.

If you can find the data, check the number of airlines in the U.S. who issue FAA regulations to their pilots. I suspect it's rarely done and you can be certain that an extremely small percentage of pilots buy their own or download them from the Internet.

No regulations - no professionalism - sorry.

I don't mean to knock Americans, but if you get into the 'profits first; safety last' practices of the FAA, there is no other conclusion available.

Grow up dude!

[Double Asymmetric]

Wind up. YAAAAAWWWWWWNNNNN......


:rolleyes:

[Drop and Stop]

Yes mate, we know, we know, the sun shines out of your @rse, heard it all before .....see ja in JB.....

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It is said that GOD doesn't subtract from ones' time on earth, those hours spent flying.

[AACapt]

SKYDRIFTER,

You seem a little too anti-American to call yourself one. ;-)

I was just wondering why you view American pilots a being less skilled or knowledgable than Japanese or British pilots. Considering airline pilots, with all the automation, how would an ANA or BA crew pilot a 777 diffrently than an AA or UAL crew. In my opinion there would be no difference at all.

On the matter of professional knowledge, why do you discredit the aeronautical universities in the U.S.; especially schools like Embry-Riddle. These universities offer 4 year degrees for professional pilots that cover, in great depth, the subject of aviation. I admit, and this is strictly speaking from what I have heard, that the JAA ATPL written is difficult. However, most people on this site talk of completing the the 14 writtens in 6 months. It may be possible that people can cover 4 years of material in six months, but what is a persons retention of that material if it was covered in such a short period of time.

The FAA writtens are pretty pathetic, but in the U.S. you have absolutely no chance of being hired without a four year degree; whereas in Europe (again, this is from what I hear) airlines don't require college degrees. The trend in the U.S. nowadays is you either have an aviaton related degree or you're from the military. With all this, I really do not see how U.S. pilots are less skilled in anyway. I don't mean to start an argument, I'am just responding to all the anti-U.S. comments I see on this site. Any comments are welcome, especially from you SKYDRIFTER. :-)


[This message has been edited by AACapt (edited 23 March 2001).]

[This message has been edited by AACapt (edited 23 March 2001).]

[This message has been edited by AACapt (edited 23 March 2001).]

[This message has been edited by AACapt (edited 24 March 2001).]

[AMEX]

Think the average American pilot has more experience than their European counterparts. Euro pilots tend to know more about the theory (required by the exams). Don't know which one is better but maybe a combination of the two could be a good start.

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If you can't save the engine...save the airframe :)

[This message has been edited by AMEX (edited 24 March 2001).]

[Blake]

Americans have one thing on the rest of us and that is the size of their ego's.

R soles the lot of em.

[This message has been edited by Blake (edited 24 March 2001).]

[RightsFlyer]

flyle
One of the most dangerous traits in a pilot is arrogance.

Nature is no respecter of inflated egos or overconfidence, and Murphy positively delights in bringing them down to earth.

Reflect on that before we get into an "I'm better than you" debate here.

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It'll never fly.

[wuzatforus?]

Hey flyle,
As you have done, I am going to make some outrageous generalisations here.

Guess what, your 4 year degree is not even the equivalent of a European 2 year degree. Heck, outside the Ivy League, all you have to do to graduate, is show up .

Education has little to do with pilot skills as is shown by the accident statistics for Doctors and Lawyers in general aviation.

The minimum standards are set by the FAA, or JAA, or whoever, but then it is up to the pilot or his employer to improve on that.

The achieved, or in service, standards of piloting vary greatly within all jurisdictions and your generalisations highlight your limited exposure.

There are brilliant and cr*p pilots in all countries, which are you?

[daft fader]

I like American pilots , their antics in UK airspace have kept me amused for over 25 years.

1...Inability to listen out.

2...Always querying the route

3...Amusing variations on fix/ reporting points eg Saint Rumble (Strumble)

4...Not understanding plain English (it`s them with the accent, not me)

I could go on (which is another thing they do)

[5milesbaby]

From our side of it - the Americans can fly the planes no problem, no better or no worse than any other international airline, however there seems to be a 'slight' language barrier. It may work state side, but definately not here. We have the ICAO recognised standard which we do veer from SLIGHTLY, but the Americans don't seem to have any knowledge of it what so ever. However I can see its the same for the Brits flying in America. Reflecting on that, some Brits flying the 'larger' a/c over here seem to have very similar problems!

Basically, in your own ways, your all as BAD as each other, but then again, we're not perfect either. http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/tongue.gif

[Tor]

Look at the number of post - this is someone who has registred just to provoke :rolleyes:

But it's quite amusing. My contribution to the fun, is to say that no one flies better than the Brits - they can do it half asleep or even drunk :)

[Diesel8]

Tor, you are absolutely right, they do seem to do that rather well.

[CargoRat2]

I wonder if this isn't some cheap advertising by Embry-Riddle?

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rgds Rat

[pogop]

In my short career as a pilot I have seen things which back up both sides of the argument. I'm a Brit and I learnt to fly in the States, and then instructed out there. I was asked to check out a guy (to fly a light twin) who had this 4 year degree from Embry Riddle and he did not have a clue about flying or the way the aircraft worked.
On the other side, in the states when learning multi engine there is a huge emphasis on understanding the various factors of Vmc. When I went to Oxford to convert to a CAA licence there was not a single mention of this in the ground school or even when flying the aircraft.
With this in mind I don't think it is fair to generalise those from either side of the Pond.

[static]

FLYLE,

Before you start boasting your academic achievements in the colonies, first start by getting your grammar right. English is not my native language, but even I can see from your posting that you didn`t read aeronautics at any decent university anywhere. And that`s just from your short posting.
Amusing, though.

[capt waffoo]

Tell me, what on earth is an "Aeronautical University" actually for?

Here in the UK we can turn a high school graduate into a PHD in Nuclear Physics (or Aeronautical Design & Engineering)in 4 yrs, and a dumb ATPL pilot at Oxford or Perth in just 11 months. What the hell do they do for all that time at these places?

Just curious.

;)

[Jetheat]

I have a UK and a US ATPL and so I know what I am talking about!

I have completed the training in the US as well as in England for an ATPL licence / license.

I spent 3 years in America and I passed every single exam first time, from PPL thru to ATPL, whether it was a ground exam or flight exam.
In the UK, I failed most of my exams first time round.
This shows the level of difficulty and the standards required by each country.

Most people would think that the flying remains the same where ever you train.
I can tell you from experience that even flight training in the UK is more stringent than in the US.
As for the knowledge required, the UK ATPL demands much more knowledge that you can imagine. This could possibly prepare the pilot for any contingencies.

For e.g. : A PPL pilot got lost. An Airline Pilot started to question him about his position with regards to the sun and the ocean. Eventually, the airline pilot fixed his position and relayed the info to the rescue team. The PPL pilot was found. The Airline Pilot had utilised some of the knowledge which we learn in the UK ATPL Navs. I would imagine that 98% of American Pilots wouldn't have a clue with regards to cosmic navigation.

All areas of flying and studying including ETA's, R/T Procedures, Rules and Regulations are far more stringent in the UK than the US. This makes for a harder life but it also makes for a thoroughly well prepared Pilot. [The Creme de la Creme - The Bees Knees - The Dogs Bo!!ocks!].

Having said that, since there are less restrictions in the US, flying is more fun and relaxed.

Now the choice is up to the individual - Would u rather be relaxed or would u rather be well prepared?

I leave it up to you.

[Meridianman]

So the tests are harder in the UK and from seeing all the advertising for pilots there seems to be a shortage of qualified/experienced applicants. I can understand how one leads to the other but why is the pay so low in the UK? That’s not a slam. It just doesn’t make sense to me. If it’s so hard and there’s a shortage I would assume the market rate for your services would be higher. What am I missing here?

[RRAAMJET]

JetHeat - I hear your quals and I'll raise you five:

Ex-RAF, ex-USAF exchange, ex-UK regional, Ex-Cathay, now US major. OK?

What a load of tripe this thread is; it should be hermetically sealed. Unless you've flown for both's militaries and both's major carriers you really have no clue on what you're talking about when it comes to professionalism comparisons.

There are good and bad for both systems. I guarantee that most US pilots would struggle through the JAA exams ( and wonder about their relevance ). I am also absolutely certain that most BA or Cathay folks would find a US Major Airline type oral and checkride a shock ( and just as demanding ).

The US just doesn't put as many obstacles in the way of obtaining your licenses - the major's examine your knowledge at the interview board several years down the road. No 200 hr pilots in the biggies here.

And yes, I've cringed at my fellow Brits sounding lost and mis-pronouncing places over here, and also cluttering the radios with precise dictation. You can tell straight away the long-timers in BA - they blend in seamlessly at JFK/ORD/LAX or where-ever. Then again, that's my point. If you've spent all your time in a different system, you're bound to sound a little hesitant in another if you visit it only occasionally. With the rapid movement going on at the US carriers the overseas experience level is being diluted as many intl FO's are moving to domestic Capt. But I will say that the some of the best "polers" I've seen are over here - I think it's because they get more chance to hand-fly due to more visual days.
Endless Cat III's into LHR don't help your handling skills.

And as for the wind-up merchant who started this thread: grow up. Post your experiences of the rest of the world, so that we can all judge your background.

[Jetheat]

RRAMJET,

I agree that flying in the US is a hell of a lot easier than flying in the UK because of the leniancy and the more friendly manner adopted by everyone involved in flying or aviation. That's what makes it much more fun to fly in the states.

However, we are talking about skills and knowledge. I guarantee you a British Pilot would run cirlcles around a US Pilot when it comes to knowledge. As for flying, there could be arguments both ways.
I have flown in the US for 3 years and in the UK for 2.
I have experienced the UK Flight Training to be much more intensive and stringent compared to the US.
I am also aware of the type of airline orals which are administered in the US. I agree that the orals may be more intensive than some of the UK airlines. However, there are UK airlines who have more intensive orals than the US majors. It's not a question about oral questioning (Since that depends on the interviewers knowledge) but rather about the amount and type of knowledge obtained during your training and career.

[Flyingfarouk]

You are all inferior to Arab pilots. It was us who invented the flying carpet or was it not.
Degreeprograms in american universitis are so easy even a 2yr old could go thru thosse in notime.
And you english do not owne the world anymore. you are the same or even worse

[RRAAMJET]

JetHeat, with your very limited experience you have little idea of heavy jet flying or military flying ( I note from elsewhere you just got your first KLMuK position - congrats ). Precisely which airline oral or type-ride did you sit over here?. I think an ex-US Navy pilot would surprise you with knowledge, and fly rings around you, in an F-18 or an airliner.

You're basing your thoughts on light civvie flying. I think that the Euro-students ARE further ahead at this early stage, simply because the weather is crummier and the airspace constraints are tighter. Also, progression to big jets is potentially much quicker, so the ability to have all the theory is needed at an earlier stage. This goes for the RAF, as well. The Forces are too small in the UK to carry anyone on a Sqn for as long as the US allows, whilst qualifications are completed.

[Agaricus bisporus]

Farouk, imshi!

[Flyingfarouk]

Shukran habibi

[TowerDog]

Hmm, interesting subject: Who is best?

I have some experience from Europe, Middle East, Japan and USA.
Pilot licenses from 4 nations.
(But no British ATP)

Agree with previous posting on FAA orals and type rides. Not easy and they get your un-divided attention every time.

I cincerely belive that the quality of pilots
can be both good and bad on both sides of the pond. Have shared many a cockpit with many a Brit and did not spot any superior skill or knowledge that my US collegues did not have.
I am sure the knowledge part of the UK ATPL goes more into astro (Cosmic?) navigation and such, but I doubt it is relevant to flying modern aircraft in todays system.

I was born and raised in Europe before emmigrating to the US and have found if anything, that some European pilots take
themselves too seriously.

(I had a friend with Lufthansa once: He was about to upgrade on the Airbus. I cracked a joke about the Airbus being Poor Mans B-767. He never spoke to me again.....:-)

Lighten up guys, we all do the same job: Drive an airplane from A to B for a monthly
pay check. Big deal.


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Men, this is no drill...

[Jetheat]

RRAMJET

You're comparing the long time aviation flyers with the likes of me or the Military Pilots with Civy Pilots. You cant compare those.

Take like for like. Compare a UK Navy Pilot to a US Navy Pilot with the same length of experience, aganin dont pick the crappest one u know. Take a bunch of Pilots and then compare them.
Alternatively, take someone in BA and compare to someone in Delta with the same time or experience.

This is how you will extract the nitty gritty details of who knows what and how developed their flying skills are.

BTW, which did u find more intensive )in knowledge and flight training), RAF or USAF?

[AACapt]

Jetheat,

Just a question, where exactly did you complete your flight training in the U.S.?

[This message has been edited by AACapt (edited 30 March 2001).]

[This message has been edited by AACapt (edited 08 April 2001).]

[RRAAMJET]

JetHeat: good question - I've been pondering over it for a while. As anyone who has flown with the USAF on exch will tell you, they do things so completely different from the UK it's hard to make a comparison. Lack of flexibility is the biggest difference in training between the two. Believe it or not, the USAF guys can recite virtually word perfect all their relevant manuals, procedures, 60-16, etc. Whether it means anything to them is another question. But that's the point brought up by (TowerDog, I think) - is any of the information gleened on the UK ATPL subjects recalled or much use to your average 744 driver in the middle of the night over Nikolaievsk?

I think not. Most of it is so out of date it's laughable. ("you line up on Narita RWY 16 where the local variation is 12 east; what do you set your DG to?" Seriously - that was a UKATP nav Question I remember bursting out giggling to). So this begs the question - if you know this stuff, does that make you a more knowledgable pilot in today's glass cockpit environment? Would intimate tech knowledge of your a/c type be more relevent? I think so, and on this point the US crews score well.

I've addressed the handling question in a previous post.

Knowledge of the various rules and regs around the world is also important, and on this the US crews are very average. This is partly because the FAA emphasises checking on domestic routes by it's inspectors, probably due to budget constraints. But the big 3 are working dilligently to improve this. Remember, most of the pilots at AA, for example, didn't have ANY Europe flying until they bought TWA's routes in the late 80's. Nugget Euro-pilots are more used to travelling into strange FIR's at an earlier stage.

As you progress in your career, you'll find you recall less and less of the ATP theory, because you don't use it, and mostly it's not relevant. You'll wonder why they ever made you go through a lot of it, and why they let ex-navs set the questions.

[RRAAMJET]

Oh, JetHeat, one more thing I forgot to add:

The pilot that used oral-boxing and sun-angle to find the lost delivery pilot was on e Capt Vette of Air New Zealand ,I flew with his son at Cathay ( he's a Capt there ). I don't think his Dad was an admirer of Pom Atp theory, either. Only a keen amateur navigator. One of aviation's brilliant moments, and not likely to be repeated by a UK wooly-pully pilot in a GPS-equipped 310 - no matter how good his theoretical knowledge.

[411A]

Interesting to note the situation at SV some years ago on the TriStar. Three ex-GF (all Brits) Captains joined and had a VERY difficult time as they had not handled their own throttles and hand flown at the same time. Same situation years later at UL. They could not fly well BUT their theoretical knowledge was quite good, and they all could watch the aircraft do a CAT III approach without difficulty. The Saudi's were not impressed (and rightly so IMHO).

[Tom the Tenor]

Boys! You can put aside all your great pilots from America, Britain, Japan and elsewhere because it is so obvious that the very best pilots flying todays's modern airliners under God's beautiful blue sky are none other than the ex-officers and gentlemen of the Irish Army Air Corps. Ireland's finest to be sure!

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What we want is a bit of Pop Music, none of this Beethoven!!

[ditchdog]

What a load of absolute rubbish!!

I can tell the lot of you that American pilots are as good if not better than many of the so called expert Brits and Europeans.

Having spent 7 years flying in the United States I found the level of professionalism and overall competence of many pilots to be without question of a very high standard.

Lets not forget that unfortunate UAL crew that had to fly an aircraft without hydraulic power into Sioux City a few years ago. Its widely acknowledged that this particular AMERICAN crew handled the situation brilliantly. Simulator tests subsequently showed that the aircraft was virtually uncontrollable.

This horsesh@#t nonsense about who or what system produces better pilots is something that only serves to demonstrate the fact that many pilots and not just Americans have a serious ego problem.

There are countless examples of absolute stuffups by crew from all parts of the world. The Brits have killed their fair share of happless passengers over the years.

So wake up and smell the coffee we are all as bad or as good as one another.

NB: One notable exception is Australia, where there have been no jet fatalities in its entire history of commercial aviation.
The only fatalities occured on some British designed and built aircraft that had a nasty habit of shedding wings. Viscounts is what they called them!!

So lets get on with the business of aviation and respect for one another, and leave the pissing contest alone!

[vmommo]

I really don't care if I'm not as well educated as a UK pilot, as long as I enjoy my job and my paycheck clears twice a month!

One thing I do know is that UK pilots get hosed both paywise and by the tax man!

Fly safe and remember that a pilot is not management.

[zonoma]

The Yanks always will have a bad image in Britain, no matter what happens, but I'm now getting the impression that ALL pilots are just stuck up pompous gits, that have so much time, they can argue in circles about this thread. IT DOESN'T MATTER, you all get from A to B safely, or you couldn't be posting anyway. As for that, its us Air Traffic'ers that get you there safely 99% of the time, and your fancy on-board computer the other 1% when we mess up. I'd love a job getting paid for 8 hours, when all the work takes 5 mins. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Tommy Turbine]

Try telling that to the many hundreds of pax and crew that have died over the years due to mid airs or being vectored into Cb's or terrain.
I guess ATC played no part in the Canary Islands the day two 747s lay smouldering on the runway!

[Avman]

Tommy Turbine,

Shut up! You don't know what you're talking about. The Tenerife accident was not ATC's fault. The KLM took-off without clearance. Big time co*k-up by an experienced training captain!

[Tommy Turbine]

Avman,

There is no need to be like that!
I remember this accident quite clearly and I do recall that the blame was placed on the KLM skipper but that there were many other contributing factors.

Some of the phraseology that was used by ATC on that fateful day left a lot to be desired.

I seem to remember that there was a lot of confusion about whether the KLM crew thought they were cleared for takeoff or whether they were to expect takeoff clearance as they were lining up.

In any event what I was trying to demonstrate was that accidents can occur because of many systemic failures forming error chains.

In other words we all have a duty of care,pilots and controllers alike to the people who place their lives in our hands.

It is with this thought in mind that I take exception to criticism by controllers aimed squarely at pilots.

Relax and have a cup of coffee or something!!

[Diesel8]

Hey TT,

You need to reread the transcripts on Tenerife. The KLM FO was well aware that they were not cleared for takeoff.

KLM has tried to avoid blame, to this day, they still point their fingers at ATC. Captain Van Zandt was their poster boy, but apparently not the easiest guy to get along with.

"We go now!"

[mutt]

411A,

SV don’t have CATIII approval, so I guess that those British pilots were watching some other airline!

Mutt :)

[Loki]

Tommy Turbine

You are quite right about phraseology being a contributory factor in incidents/accidents.

I don`t know what US ATC R/T is like, but some of their pilots phraseology is appalling!

[Gentleman Aviator]

....and.........relax.

:)

[RRAAMJET]

Specifically, what? Loki....

Re-read my previous thread; I commented that unfortunately I've heard British crews making just as much of a mess in the US of their FAA PHRASEOLOGY radio calls as US crews overseas make of ICAO. It goes both ways, but you never hear the US folks complaining over here about long-winded fluffy read-backs on a frenetic rush-hour frequency. Specifically: one of the most common I hear is, the ATIS says read back only Transp.code and atis letter if you've recieved your clearance (due to volume of calls from non-acars PDC equipped a/c) - promptly followed by an entire British waffle-out of the whole clearance. "Better to be safe..." I hear you say. Not so. Do as the ATIS tells you.

I'm always hearing on pprune complaints about "..twenty-five..." or "three five oh". Well, according to the AIM, that is the standard phraseology over here in the US. So until all Brits use it when flying over here, isn't it a little pompous to suggest that all US crews must use precise ICAO when in UK? And if the message gets across, who cares? This is not the BBC world Service attempting to influence what's left of the Empire on HF....

"Philip and I wish all US crews would use One's English..."

[Loki]

Some examples:

1...not listening out (not alone here,but the worst offenders)

2...Either unable to follow route instructions, or read them back in less than 3 attempts

3...asking silly questions on extremely busy frequencies like "can we direct...." despite just having been given a radar heading.

4...referring to flight levels as if they were altitudes.

I could go on but then I`d start to sound like one of them.

[RRAAMJET]

And all those examples occur over here, too ,Loki, with foreign crews. Like I said, it's extremely pompous of us Brits to feel that we are the master race of the radio....(if anyone, IMHO, it should be the Dutch: fluent in 3 or 4 languages)

[Tor]

Rraamjet -

Isn't it a bit unfair to expect pilots should know about your local phraseology when an international standard exists.

Many post, by Americans, gives the impression that you think that FAA is something worldwide (one thread in particular: ATC during go-around (http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/Forum1/HTML/011675-5.html) - a couple of American pilots simply couldn't accept that JAA rules allows visual approaches down to 800 meters RVR, despite links to official web-sites clearly stated it's indeed allowed).

[This message has been edited by Tor (edited 04 April 2001).]

[COWPAT]

I do feel that there is something in this post. My experience is initially mil fj now civvy trucker and one glaring observation from my days in RAF Germany is that the Brits would, by and large, integrate into the local community whereas the yanks would effectively take a couple of thousand acres of America with them around the world, including for example using US$ as the currency on base in Germany. Whats the point I,m trying to make? Well it develops a very insular outlook to life and no exposure or appreciation of other peoples systems, problems and solutions. Transfer that to the flight deck of an airliner and you get p*ss poor CRM.

Stands by for incoming

[DH T.11]

The thing is, The Harrier plans where bought by americans, Concord was not allowed the land in the us for years, and BA is the worlds favoirte airline.

I rest my case.

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Forget The Pride, GO ROUND! :)

[Tommy Turbine]

COWPAT,

Thats a very sweeping statement to make!
Does the fact that you are ex military make you an expert on CRM amongst US carriers?

I suppose having a few beers with some American servicemen has provided you with an insight into the operating culture of United or American.

CRM was developed in the US many years ago and since has been widely adopted by reputable airlines around the world.
It constantly amazes me that a group of so called professional pilots can operate American designed and built aircraft on airways systems that rely largely on historicaly American designes and ideas yet criticise everything American.

I realise that some people suffer from inferiority complexes that manifest themselves in such a way as to make one sound like your classic whinging pom.

But I guess thats life, still though I dont suppose the yanks are loosing any sleep over it!

[COWPAT]

Thanks for the incoming TT

No it doesn't make me an expert and I,m not commenting on any individual, but I do feel that the US military way of taking America around the world with them deprives US servicemen of some worthwhile exposure to the country they are serving in. I know (and work with) many US aviators and they are all top blokes, but they would be the first to admit that the ex mil US guys believe that the world revolves around DC and that the rest of the world should keep in step. That attitude is arrogant and wrong and the US military (for its own good reasons) does nothing to check it.

[411A]

COWPAT
Would certainly have to agree with you about the ex- US military guys, they can be a real pain at times, especially when they join a civil airline and then complain about how things are done. Have found in the simulator that they are also no better that the civil trained guys.

[Tommy Turbine]

COWPAT,

I agree with you when you suggest that there is a level of ignorance by many Americans about life outside their own sheltered world that serves to reinforce the seemingly wholesale dislike of yanks in general.

Just like you, I know many American pilot friends and have to say that they are not a bad bunch when you get to know them.

I also know that SOME ex military aviators and not necessarily Americans, can be rather critical of the way their civilian counterparts operate.

In all honesty I have seen first hand how certain military egos can get in the way of sound and sensible operating procedures.

Thats not to say that this problem does not afflict certain civilian types either!

So I suspect that what we are really discussing here is more a problem with individual personalities as opposed to nationalities.

Funny about that,I was under the impression that the various psychological tests that airlines blindly rely on, were designed to weed these characters out!



[This message has been edited by Tommy Turbine (edited 05 April 2001).]

[COWPAT]

Hi TT

Agree that arrogance/ignorance is not the sole preserve of ex US mil guys, but their system within the military actually seems to encourage that type of thinking. Hardly surprising then that they have more than their fair share of problems when transferring to civil aviation.

[DH T.11]

I just don't like big headed yanks, sorry if thats offencive, but I just don't,

Plus UK pilots don't run into MIGS,

Sorry that was bellow the belt.
sill funny though,

The only thing that makes U.S planes so good it the ammount of $ they have.


Sorry, I forgo to say COWPAT (Everyone else has!)

[offshoreigor]

TO ALL:

I don't think anyone can make a general statement as to what nationality produces the best pilot.

The best pilot's have a sound knowledge in Aerodynamics, Air Navigation procedures (both IFR & VFR), Air Law (CARS,FAR,JARS, JEPPS etc), an excellent system knowledge and handling skill on the equipment he/she is flying and and extremely large helping of common sense.

As for the comments about ERU, yes it is a good school, but a degree from such a school does not make you an expert, it only gives you a license to learn. The best pilot's know that they are learning every time they strap in.

When you think you have learned all there is to know, it's time to retire.

Hope that makes the point, but then again, that's only my opinion.

Cheers, OffshoreIgor http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif

[This message has been edited by offshoreigor (edited 08 April 2001).]

[COWPAT]

Since this topic was started the US, to my knowledge has lost 2 F15s in UK a light a/c in Germany, had the friendly fire cock up in Kuwait, the China incident, and today I hear they have lost a chopper in Vietnam.

Whats happening guys?

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Any opinions on Welsh pilots by any chance?

I'm really interested.

WWW

[Loki]

Welsh pilots are the sheepish looking ones!

[Sensible]

With a woolier than thou attitude? :)

[Qwntm]

The really funny thing about this thread is that it was probably started by an obvious ERU student. What's so funny is that these people say these stupid things and are always getting into these ignorant pi$$ ups on boards in the US all the time!

For the record, the worst pilots I have ever worked with all went to ERU. Excellent theory knowledge, but all were afraid to get checked off on tailwheel aircraft... (I think it has something to do with the fact that you actually have to know HOW TO FLY, REALLY FLY, to fly a tailwheel...well land one anyway.) I'm sure ERU turns out good pilots, I just personally have never met one...

The best pilots are the friendliest, with the greatest attitudes and always willing to help. (Regardless of their nationality.)

Personally, I don't give a flying frig what someone got on their written tests. I'd prefer to have a person who fly's tailwheels or gliders on their days off sitting next to me, if or when the time comes to go around on one engine IMC with smoke filling the cabin. (The Gimli Glider comes to mind, the Captain was an "amatuer" glider pilot, and slipped, SLIPPED, to a DEAD STICK landing a 767. Now that is FLYING!)

Being a natural born US citizen, but first generation Dutch, let me just comment on the biggest problem I see facing the US. The complete breakdown of the societies infrastructure. There are 100,000,000 single Americans that are activly looking for partners. That is 1/3rd of the population. 23% of the children in America lived in two parent homes in 1999. That is down from 56% in 1970 (same study.) But that means that 77% of the children in the US live in SINGLE PARENT HOMES. Men here are targets. The women are totally out of control. Everybody is competing with everybody, and the children don't have homes or parents.

I assume this is not the case, or is not as bad in other countries.

What this has to do with flying, I cannot tell. But It does reflect on the "differences" between the cultures, and therefore may be relevant. I hope somebody finds it illuminating.

Fly safe...

[Tommy Turbine]

Qwmtn,

Interesting comments on life in the US.
I lived and worked in California and Nevada for a number of years, and I have got to say that you live in a gorgeous part of the country.

You are absolutely correct about nationality having nothing to do with how good a pilot one is.

Flying all over the US with a number of operators, I can recall some bloody good aviators and some interesting times.

Not to mention some of the most liberated women I have ever met!

Ahhh the good old days......

Just as an aside do you guys have a career path into mainline Continental?

[upgrade]

Military aviation:
Lowest Kill ratio of 20 to 1 in aerial combat says it all.US pilots are the best(they have the best training,the best aircraft,the best everything).Up against their nearest competitor,the RAF,the kill ratio would probably drop to 5:1 but we're unlikely to ever test that theory.
Civil aviation:
Flying started here.We've been flying longer than anyone else on the planet.Our airlines are huge and our safety record is second to none.Licensing standards are adequate but you need much more than an ATP to get a real job stateside.Type-rating standards are the toughest;the 4 hour oral to gain a type-rating is far tougher than the multi-choice questionnaire favored by some.

Thats the generalization;in reality there are just good pilots,average pilots and bad pilots.And all countries have their fair share.

[Qwntm]

Tommy Turbine, Yes there is a "flow through" to Continental, but it was negotiated in 1997 and unless you are lower than #800 on the seniority list the flow through will probably expire before you get to flow through. I think it is up for re-negotiation in 2002, so who knows, anything can happen. CAL, COEX and SWA are the three great American airlines to work for. generally the people who work for these are happy to be there. That says a lot.

"Liberated women," ha!, yes, I totally agree. The totty is definately rampant, but as for having a nice cup of coffee and enjoying your homelife and your kids, this place is botz. Porn stars have their place, but I really don't want one for a wife!?

As for what Upgrade is talking about in terms of a "real" job you need more than an ATP in the US, I have no idea. I got hired as FO on the ATR 42-320 for COEX with 954 total time and 160 MEL. Commercial multi instrument/ CFI. I'd call FO for the 3rd largest short haul major airline (the US DOT defines a "major airline" as one with revenues over some large number and COEX qualifies) as a "real job..."

It's a great time to be a pilot.

[Rogaine addict]

WWW: Welsh pilots are Fabulously Flatulant.