Flight Engineers, the safest way to operate.

[exeng]

I reckon so anyway!

Scince I stopped being one I've been on two pilot crews and it is NAFF. Apart from the safety issues 3 is definitely much more social than 2, when the co-pilot was always wrong! Now he is always right and I am as perplexed as ever!!


Regards
Exeng

[blowawayjet]

I spoke to some friends of mine, who have now moved up to a 2 men cockpit.I asked their opinions about it, and all agreed the 3 men cockpit is the best.A friend of mine is working for Boeing, he told me Boeing gave options on the 777 when it first came out, to the airlines to put back the F/E panel, as i said optional.
No airline seemed to care for it, altough it saves money in the long run.
So I guess our days are indeed numbered.I can not back up the info given by Boeing, it's merely info given to me by a friend.I guess for us, it's time to move up, or go back to the old toolbox.


'the blue light'

[whoring_around]

yes, i totally agree.i've been going back to the stores to update my box.i just hope i can still use them, considering these bs airplanes of scarebus beeing around.maybe i should go back to school and learn computer science.or should i just get my torque wrench re-calibrated?


happiness is a virtual l-1011 outfit

[NIK]

Hi blowawayjet

I agree with you that three men cockpits are probably more safe than 2 men cockpits, however I find it hard to believe that it saves money in the long run. PLS enlighten!

RGRDS

NIK

[TwoTun]

Just for interest.....

........I never, *ever*, fly without a Flight Engineer in the cockpit

[brianmay]

Naughty, naughty Peter!

[scanscanscan]

I did 14 years L1001. 2 as FO. 12 as captain, followed by 11 years 767 as captain.
My Crew awareness? Mr Boeing!.. was that when your machine went wrong in a medium to big way... I cursed the lack of a professional F/E.who always in my humble opinion prevented 2 man overload.
Nobody ever explained or taught how to fly instruments manually on a sid or a star and order, confirm and monitor or at night see the correct drill card all at the same time on a two man 767.
Three man L1011 crew worked like clockwork but then we were BA trained!!
767 some cheap outfit down in South America.
I feel two men crews have cost effective overload accidents.
But that is why we have insurance, said my ex boss, and he did get his accident, but thats another story PC story so we mustnot talk about that.

------------------
We will do the drill according to the amendments to the amendments I er think?

[411A]

Lets see, AA flight DFW-FRA: DC10, three man crew. 767, three man crew, but third crew member is a F/O, hence more expensive and, not as many pax. Hmmm, beancounters not so smart after all.

[Bubbette]

I agree that it's safer; and I think statisticallly it's been proven. Just look at that CO 777 pilot who passed out; what if something had happened to the co-pilot also!

[jonno]

Well, just think about the number of times that an FE may have saved major problems, and that's only in recent times:
* When QF confused their computer during the landing and overrun at BKK, the FE would have been loudly advising them of their multiple oversights, immediately after touchdown, when something constructive could have been done about it!
* When the MD11 had that inflt fire, the FE could have been doing something about it prior to it getting out of control, forcing them out of the cockpit!
* Just now, when BA had that cockpit intrusion, the FE could have stopped him a long way short of the primary flight controls, preventing all of that incident!
* That -200 that crashed just after t/o from LTN a few months ago, that was a Classic, and you know what, the FE was the only crewmember who realized what was happening, but the Captn didn't respond to his insistant calls, and flew the aircraft into the ground, AI problem!

Just to quote but a few!

[con-pilot]

Yes, that's all. Yes

[Warlock2000]

Sorry, had to stop the tail wagging the dog here.
Although a three man flightdeck is more socialable, and FE's buy horrific amounts of beer on layovers, with today's technology and system automation I fail to agree that it is any safer. I have flown both and feel as much at ease in my current two man operation as I did in a three.
More convenient, yes. Safer...?? No.

[Boss Raptor]

Agree-bring back FE's...

There is also the added advantage that if like the UK system, the FE is a fully licensed/rated Engineer then he can work on/sign off the aircraft. This often comes into its' own when the aircraft goes tech at an outstation with limited/no company engineering coverage or rapid fault diagnosis/part identification is required.

[exeng]

Jonno Said,

<* That -200 that crashed just after t/o from LTN a few months ago, that was a Classic, and you know what, the FE was the only crewmember who realized what was happening, but the Captn didn't respond to his insistant calls, and flew the aircraft into the ground, AI problem!>

Quite agree mate. Do you all remember the Air India 747 Classic many years ago that performed the exact same manouver after take-off from Bombay (sorry Mumbai!), again the F/E was heard on the flight recorder saying 'go for the standby' (horizon that is). In that instance the F/E was again ignored and all on board perished.

Seems to me that even when a F/E is carried some of our Pilot colleagues are unable to take in the input that is given. There has got to be a real CRM problem here. Two Classics lost within my flying career, both to problems (identical problems) which were identified and clearly called out by the F/E.

So for those of you that say the F/E hasn't made my operation any safer. Well maybe that could be because you are not 'mentally well prepared' to accept the advice that he/she gives. Could it be a case of "I'm a PILOT and he is just an Engineer, what does he know"?


Regards
Exeng