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aviator
18th April 2001, 09:38
Interesting Article by a fellow pilot:
Subject: Why Airline Pilots Should Make $200,000 (or more)


The airline business is an equal opportunity career field. Airlines, including Delta, American, United, and Northwest are hiring loads of pilots right now. You, too, can find yourself in the cockpit of a 767, 727, A-300 or any other commercial aircraft out there in the skies. The airlines hire regardless of race, religion, age or sex. They are literally the epitome of the equal opportunity employer. All it takes is enough intelligence to obtain an application, fill it out and send it back to personnel for
consideration. That's it!! Then you may be offered an entry level position as a pilot with any of the airlines, at a starting pay of $25,000 - 28,000 per year. Congratulations.....You're on the start of your flying career.......Or are you????

Let's see, the current qualification requirements, to even be called in for
an interview, are as follows: 4 year college degree (no problem, if you have a home computer in order to participate in this cyber dribble, then you've got that); physically able to pass an FAA Class 1 exam (assuming that you dont spend all of your time sitting on your brains at the computer, then maybe youll be able to pass.); and oh yeah, you've got to have completed the
Flight Engineer written exam, have multi-engine, commercial / instrument ratings and it wouldn't hurt to have the Airline Transport Rating (typed in something larger than your Lazy Boy recliner). Generally speaking, the current averages of new hire pilots at the airlines are: 3,300 hours total flying time, 2,700 hours multi-engine/turbo, with 1,200 hours
pilot-in-command. (Sorry, sitting on your sofa, eating pizza and surfing the channels with your TV remote doesnt count as a single minute of Instrument time!)

What??? You don't have the minimum qualifications to even be called in for
an interview???!!! Well get off your lazy can and go get qualified.
Remember, age is not a factor. You can be 60 years old and still get hired as a Flight Engineer - sorry the federal government says you can't fly past age 60, but you can be a plumber. Over 95 percent of the pilots at Delta Air Lines have military backgrounds. That's all you have to do.....join the
military, go to pilot training and spend 9 years on active duty flying airplanes. You'll be able to build the hours of experience necessary to qualify for the airlines, get paid while youre doing it and get to see the world at the same time.

What???? Can't get selected to go to pilot training because of the incredibly stringent requirements to get through the door???!!! Oh, don't want to PAY THE PRICE of having to serve your country, subject to the needs
of the service and move every 2-3 years. Even then, you don't know whether or not the airlines will be hiring when you finally gain enough experience and complete your contract with Uncle Sam!

Just what are those high entrance standards? Let's see. For every pilot slot there are approximately 50 who apply. From those selected, they enter a flight screening (aka washout) program that eliminates half of the group.
From there you go on to Undergraduate Pilot Training (for the Air Force, the Navy has a similar program under a different name) for an entire year. Work hard, because only two out of three that enter graduate. Let's do some quick math. You are in a room with a group of people who all want to become
military pilots. In fact, there are 150 of you. Guess what? Two years later only one of you will get to walk across a stage and get your wings pinned on. Ouch.

Then you get to hit the operational side. Whoa, first you've got to get through RTU (Training unit, about a 5% washout rate here). Now, you are off to the real world, training to fight or flying operational missions. Now, after nine years of this, the airline career is ahead of you. Wait a minute, I just glossed over one minor area. You see, you have to SURVIVE your time
on active duty. Let's look at one squadron and the facts. This squadron of 40 pilots lost one pilot a year for four years. I know these numbers are correct because I was in that squadron. Do the math and you see that the odds of simply surviving a four year tour is approximately 90%. Those odds
don't seem so bad, unless you are the one whose life depends on it. Those might seem like just statistics, but go to a few funerals, see the widows and children, and that 90% takes on a whole new meaning. And guess what, those numbers don't even take into account a real live war, and I'm not
alking about the wars the stock traders talk about in the stock pits. They use real live bullets in this shooting match.

Ah, no problem, if you can't or won't make it via the military route, then you can always go the civilian path to the airlines.... Remember those hours
of experience???? If not, your short term memory is in doubt which may be a factor in your abilities to fly airplanes and make life threatening decisions - reread four paragraphs previous. Those average of 3,300 hours dont come free on the civilian side of the equation either. Youll probably
need to start flying as soon as you get your drivers license in order to build those levels of hours before your life times out on the mortality tables. It'll cost you at least $2,000 to get your basic flying license: single engine, land; capable of avoiding clouds, weather less than clear and
a million miles visibility, severe crosswinds and minimum night. Now,congratulations, you've got about 40-60 hours towards that 3,300.....get going, you've got a ways to go. Start paying for some more flying time, sport.
It'll cost you 30-40 dollars per hour to rent a single engine Piper to fly your buddies around and look at the corn fields. Figure it out genius, it's going to be expensive to build several thousand hours. And don't forget, even if mom and dad are footing the bill for you, 3,000 hours
of Piper Cherokee time wont get you through American, United, Delta or anyone else's doors for a peek at the application stack!!

Thats right, youre going to have to get those other ratings. No problem.
You're a smart person. Just buy some more Instructor time, study some more stacks of books, go to more ground schools, shell out several thousand more dollars, spend thousands of hours studying some more, get that dual instruction time, take more tests, pass more physicals and you'll get that
Instrument rating - maybe in that same Piper Cherokee. Congratulations! But guess what.....tha'ts right, you still aren't close to being qualified. You
now have somewhere around 200-300 hours; enough to have the minimum necessary to go for a Commercial license. So, you pay, study, fly, study, pay, pay, pay, fly, pay, study, test, fly, pay, pay, fly, study,
test......and finally get your Commercial ticket.
Great!! Now you can be paid to fly - that'll help. But you still only have 300 or so hours flying, not enough (remember 3,300 hours) to land a seat with the Big Boys. Don't give up yet, oh Mr/Ms Wannabee, you're on your way. If you want it bad enough, you'll keep going. If you don't want it bad enough, YOU'LL QUIT, SIT BACK AND WHINE ABOUT THOSE THAT SUCCEED!!! Not you though, you press on....

Get out the check book, buy some more time. You've got to get that multi-engine experience in order to get hired by some civilian company so you can build your time. You study, pay, fly (multi-engine now - so double the hourly rate), pay, pay, fly, pay, study, fly, pay, study, pay, pay some
more, fly, test, study, fly, pay and finally - you've got that multi-engine
rating. So, with all those ratings now, multi-engine, Instrument and the all
important, Commercial ticket, you can get a job flying airplanes. Oh, not
for the airlines; hell, the commuters won't even touch you yet. But you might land yourself a job hauling canceled checks for some company. Thatll be working the boneyard shift - midnight to 6 a.m. But you'll get paid minimum wage to fly (and build those hours). Remember, youre determined to
get qualified for the Majors!! Or maybe youll get hired to fly parachute jumpers. That'll get you a couple of hours per day. It's probably not turbo prop time, but it counts towards the total. No matter, if you work real hard, fly all the time (you do have to have some minimum rest as required by the FAA) you may be able to build 1,000 hours per year! At some point in time though, my future aviation professional friend, you've got to get that turbine / jet engine time. Yep, pay, pay, study, fly, test, pay, fly, test, pay, pay and more pay.

Finally, you've beat through the trenches of aviation to get enough hours and experience to qualify for a position flying as a co-pilot for one of the commuter airlines like ASA, ComAir, American Eagle or United Express. You apply, interview and get hired!! Again, congratulations - you've made
another hurdle. Now you're building that commercial aviation experience. Oh, by the way, you're only making $14,000 per year starting - if you're lucky!!
You'll get to do this for at least 2-3 years to build that 3,000 hours of experience and at some point in time, move over to the left seat to build that pilot-in-command (PIC) time. Looking at the years of struggling to this point, youre probably wishing you had gone the military route - of course,
you didn't choose that option!!

So you press on....Now, regardless of whether you went the military or civilian route, there's been some substantial risks. Throughout your career you've been subjected to annual physicals (in some cases, every 6 months) that could have easily disqualified you, forever, from your chosen aviation
career field. On top of that, guess what, the FAA has been closely watching
you every step of the way. Fail to pass the written exams - you're history.
Fail to pass the orals - you're history. Fail to pass the flying tests - you're history. No pressure. There's more....your FAA friends have a whole stack of books of regulations governing your life as a pilot and the operation of every single airplane you lift off the ground. Here's the risk:
SCREW UP ONE TIME, JUST ONCE, AND BREAK AN AIRPLANE, HURT SOMEONE, OR JUST COME CLOSE - AND THEY TAKE YOUR LICENSES AWAY FROM YOU. FOREVER !!!! They don't care how many years and thousands of dollars you spent getting to this point in your career......they don't care how badly you want to become a
commercial airline pilot, ........you can beg, plead, get down on your whiny knees and cry.......THEY DON'T CARE !! YOU'RE HISTORY!!!! Congratulations, your lifetime of work has just been trashed for a simple mistake.
Unfortunately, there are no big margins of error in this business. Unlike working at MacDonalds, or as a marketing rep selling coat hangers, or some computer geek writing software or selling shoes at Macys, when you screw up, you stand the risk of KILLING PEOPLE! This ain't no PUSS GAME!!

But it's okay, you knew the risks, the requirements, the qualifications. YOU KNEW THE PRICE YOU'D HAVE To PAY!! And you also knew how easily it can all be jerked out from under you. So you've chosen to spend your LIFETIME studying to remain highly qualified and to get eligible for another step in the professional aviation ladder. It goes with the territory. But there are
rewards commensurate with your choice. For one: you love to fly! That's why you're here. Second: there is a chance that someday, if all goes well, you may make it to the Majors and earn a good living, again, commensurate with being a professional pilot. And besides, if this were easy to do, EVERYONE WOULD Be DOING IT!! The requirements to cut it in this business make it such that it automatically weeds out the sniffling wannabees. You either have the
mental and physical abilities coupled with the desire and DETERMINATION or youre sitting on the sideline -WHINING!! After 9 years on active duty in the military, or the equivalent on the civilian side, you've gotten the licenses and experience qualifying you to apply at the Majors. Unfortunately, the major airlines aren't like Exxon gas stations: there simply isn't one on every street corner hiring someone to pump gas. Any one airline is probably
hiring no more than 1,000 pilots per year - and that's a really big year.
You may think you have what they're looking for, but guess what, so does every other pilot applying for that position. So the competition just elevated to another notch higher. Odds are more in favor of you NOT getting hired than of getting hired!! After two or three airline interviews, you might get lucky and get hired by a startup carrier - paying less than a person on the UAW assembly line. No problem, you'll keep applying to the other carriers even though you generally only have one opportunity. A NO is generally a no for the rest of your career. But you'll keep trying.

Even if you do get lucky and hired by a Major, there's more years of dues to
pay, studying, hard work, long days, short nights and hurdles to cross. The FAA not only watches you on paper, they sit on your jumpseat and watch over your shoulder. They analyze, criticize and evaluate every move you make. They're there for your orals, writtens, simulator checks and rating rides.
They show up unannounced any time they choose. They check you and recheck you; sometimes two days in a row from different examiners. One big error now, sport, and you don't get bumped back to the Minors, you get bounced out on your ass!! You again accept the fact that youve chosen to live a life in
a profession that with any mistake you are AUTOMATICALLY GUILTY UNTIL PROVEN
INNOCENT!!

But it's okay, because the risks are high, therefore the standards must be even higher!! You're no longer talking about dinging in your little Cherokee with your buds on board. Were talking about anywhere from 100 to 400 passengers (depending on the airplane) on board who are betting their lives that you MEET OR EXCEED THOSE HIGH STANDARDS. They're betting that when that
engine fails, the hydraulic system quits or the flight controls stop working that you have the knowledge, experience and highly trained skill to safely and that airplane on a short runway, in weather that you wont take your Honda Accord out in to buy your pizza. Therein lies the blessing and the
problem: passengers. Since deregulation, the prices for tickets have become increasingly competitive. In fact, the cut throat marketing schemes of some airlines have caused tickets prices to be so low that it is now cheaper to fly than to take the Greyhound bus. Hence, the business takes on the look and feel of mass transportation. More competition, lower ticket prices, more
passengers. Through the process weve lowered the standards. Average tickets prices down, thus reduced revenues, and consequently a huge reduction in the standard of service. The simple fact of the matter, people, is that you cannot expect to get 1st class service for below Greyhound prices on your
tickets. You don't go to the Cadillac dealer and expect to pay Yugo prices.

Heres an economic question for you: when you go to the grocery store, the gas station, make a long distance telephone call, buy a new modem or a new pair of shoes, do you think you pay LESS for that product or service than what it costs the business to SUPPLY it? Nope. But the marketing gurus in
the airlines business sell seats for less than it costs to produce them.

So costs are out of sight. Gotta lower the overhead. We'll cut back on our service: no meals, minimum number of flight attendants to provide service, fewer agents, etc. In fact, we'll out source everything we can to lower costs. Well lay off tens of thousands of dedicated and loyal employees so we
can contract with outside companies to fuel our planes, clean em, handle baggage and even work the gates. Those companies hire at minimum wage and with no benefits. So guess what, there is no employee loyalty, dedication or commitment. If its a rainy, cold Saturday in Chicago, the minimum wage ramp workers won't show up for work. What's the contractor going to do, fire them
and hire more minimum wage employees with the same dedication? So your bags get lost, or stolen, or just dont get put on the plane. The flight is late because there's not enough fuelers to fuel the airplane. You're pissed because the flight's late and it never crosses your mind that it might be
because of your $79.00 round trip airfare from Chicago to Miami. You don't apply the same "you get what you pay for logic" to your airline ticket that you do when you go shopping for a new automobile. You expect to have your ass kissed for the $39.50 for that flight segment. Hell, you can't buy a
hooker to kiss your cheek for that amount of money!!

Guess what you think you can do for your $39.50?? You feel like you have the
constitutional right to defecate, urinate and vomit in the seat; leaving it for someone else to clean up. You throw your trash on the floor and walk away from it. You'll change your babys diaper on the tray table, wad up the pamper full of baby crap and leave it in the seatback pocket. And then you whine that youre paying too much for your ticket, the plane's late, or that
seats are too cramped. Guess what?? I wouldn't ride in your car and treat you that way - why treat the professionals in the aviation community that way??!! Because - YOU DON,T CARE !!!! You want the most you can get for the east you have to pay for it!

Unfortunately, the airline managements have cut back their services to the point that they can't cut anymore. So they look to the only other source of cutting - employee salaries and benefits. For the non contract (non-union) groups its easy to scalp. They don't have any protection from irresponsible
management who are only interested in the bottom line. But if you happen to be fortunate enough to have the protection of a professional organization (unions like ALPA or APA) then its a little bit tougher to slaughter. You see, even though management has reduced the standards of the products they sell, the standard by which professional pilots are subjected to have not been reduced!! The price pilots have had to pay is still there. The risks and the requirements still remain.
Passengers may want the most they can get
for the least dollar, but they still want those pilots to have the experience/qualifications commensurate with requirements of operating aircraft, full of passengers, in an intense and risk filled environment! I hate to tell you this, sport, but that doesn't come FREE!! If you want it,
youve got to pay for it!!

Now let's fold in record profits being reaped by airline management. Not to mention huge salaries and bonuses for executives at the airlines. Without exception, the salaries of professional pilots throughout the business have not kept pace with the cost of living for the past decade. Simply put, airline pilots are making less than they were 10 years ago, yet you keep charging more each year for that new color TV, automobile, gallon of milk or tank of gas.

So, after 25 years of flying experience, tests, physical exams, simulator checks, military service, etc., etc, I finally reach the left seat of an airplane in the service of a commercial carrier. Yep, I also get a 6 figure income. Tell me, why shouldnt I??? If anyone could get here, then this profession wouldn't have the added benefit of a nice salary. It doesn't require a doctor the same number of years to get to 6 figures, yet, no one denies that surgeon is worth every penny when you're laying on the table with your chest sliced open and a rib splitter making a hole large enough to reach through. And a surgeon only kills them one at a time when he screws up!! I don't hear you whining about stock brokers getting 6 figure incomes.
You don't seem to have any problem with paying $100 to take your family to a
professional baseball game to watch a 19 year-old play ball for $1 million per year!! But for some reason, you are pissed off that professional airline pilots are eventually compensated with a 6 figure income.

And you want to whine about their retirement? Statistically, only 1 out of
every 3 pilots entering this profession will ever make it to retirement.
Thats a 66 percent chance that I'll never see the lump-sum numbers that you want to bitch about. And guess what, if it weren't for collective bargaining, contracts, unions and federal regulations, reckless managements would be robbing those retirement funds like Jesse James. Thank goodness there are unions out there protecting the earned benefits of professionals.

So why shouldn't the pilots at American, United, Delta or any other union carrier, fight for the survival of their profession. Obviously managements have forgotten (or selectively forget) what it took to get in the pilots seat (managements are predominately non-pilots) and what it takes to remain there for a full career. Executives would like to ignore their own high salaries, bonuses and benefits and rather ignite the public and fellow
employees against the 6 figure salaries of the professional pilots.

So you, in your ignorance, jump on that bashing bandwagon without being armed with the facts. The fact of the matter is this: If you, or any other living, breathing, whining non-achiever wants to make the 6 figure income of a professional pilot - its an open door thats available to you. I've laid it out for you. Its there for the taking. All you have to do is go for it. You
can't sit on the sideline and whine though. Whining won't get you into the Captains seat on a B-767. You also can't leap from your Piper Cherokee into the left seat of that B-777 or B-727. There are no short cuts!! But you can get there; many have made it. So can you. But if you don't want it bad enough to pay the price, or you dont have the commitment, dedication, enthusiasm or determination to get there.....then STOP YOUR BITCHING.

Because, you see, just as much as you obviously don't care what it takes for
an individual to make it to the left seat of a B-747 with 400 passengers on board, we dont give a rats ass that you don't care !! We'll do what we have to do to protect our profession, careers, benefits and salaries. It wasn't a cake walk to get here.....thats obvious because you're not among those that
have SUCCEEDED.

Have another slice of pizza, flip to a different channel and stop bashing those who chose a tougher career.

DON'T COMPARE MY JOB TO OTHER JOBS!!! A lot has been said and written in the press concerning pilots' salaries and compensation. We have been told about how much it will cost our company, our job has been compared to others, and various subtle and not so subtle threats and intimidation tactics have been hurled at our group. In light of the current situation, please allow me, a pilot to give you a small glimpse into my world...

DON'T COMPARE MY JOB TO OTHER JOBS!!!

...How many boardrooms explode over Long Island Sound?
...How many meetings conclude with hundreds of dead bodies?
...How many trucks cost $82 million dollars?
...How many doctors spend half the month away from their families?
...Do the children of media representatives cry when Daddy puts on his
uniform to go to work because they know he'll be gone for a week?
...How many salesmen lose their jobs because they have high blood pressure?
...How many lawyers spent Christmas alone in a crash pad?
...When your wife is watching TV and the program is interrupted by a news
flash of an aircraft accident, does she momentarily freeze in fear for what
she might hear?

There is not another profession in the world where the consequences for
mistakes are so catastrophic and unforgiving.

THE PRICE
...I pay the price when somebody loads full oxygen containers in the cargo
hold
...I pay the price when a terrorist has a bone to pick
...I pay the price when loaders forget to set the locks
...I pay the price when engineers design a fuel pump incorrectly
...I pay the price when Mother Nature decides to shift the winds...

YOU SPEAK OF THE COST
...Ask the CEO of Value Jet the cost of a DC-9 buried in the
Everglades...The Cost..
...Ask Fred Smith the cost to scrape a DC-10 and MD-11 from the runways at
Steward and Newark...The Cost
...Ask Korean Airlines the cost of a 747 that didn't quite make the runway
at Guam... The Cost
...Ask Fine Air the cost to clean up a DC-8 off a Miami Street... The Cost
...Ask Bob Crandall the cost of a B-757 impacting a Columbian mountain...The
Cost
...And if not for their Cool, Calm, Professionalism, what could have been
the cost of a UPS B-727 that suddenly went dark and silent four miles above
Chicago? How much were they worth to you that night? Industry standard or 25
% below? ...... The Cost

WHEN YOU TRY TO INTIMIDATE ME, REMEMBER
...It was I who flew Cobra gunships in the jungles of Vietnam while you worked on your masters degree
...It was I who sits alone at the tip of an F-18 in the silent instant before I am catapulted over a cold, dark sea, while you slept peacefully in your bed
...It was I who, one night watched my wings grow heavy with ice, miles from the safety of the nearest airport praying that I had enough fuel to find clear skies, while you watched Monday night football
...It was I who flew a C-130 into Panamanian gunfire, while you decorated your Christmas tree in 1989
...It was I who faced head-on the fourth largest army in the world over the deserts of Iraq and brought it to its knees, while you watched it on CNN
...It was I who landed an A-6 on a floating piece of tarmac no bigger than your backyard, while you mowed yours
...It was I who orbited in unarmed tankers over enemy territory to replenish others sworn to protect you
...It was I who watched missiles and bullets blossom in my face, yet didn't turn and run, while you watched the flowers in your garden blossom
...It was I who buried a friend
...It is I who knows a little boy who will never play catch with his Dad, so that you may play with your grandchild.

Sir, please don't try to intimidate me.

I am not your enemy, I am your asset, an asset that has experienced and
accomplished things few others dare to try. Realize this and there a few
obstacles we can't overcome.

THINALBERT
18th April 2001, 10:07
WOW!

Big Red ' L '
18th April 2001, 10:49
So whats your point..????

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Its not the fall that kills you...Its the sudden stop.....

deepee
18th April 2001, 11:42
Can you walk on water??.If not,why not!!
You can do everything else.

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"I don't suffer from stress.I'm a carrier".

Huck
18th April 2001, 11:53
What a cry for help....

Ramrise
18th April 2001, 13:51
I think it is a well written article. All the 'dramatics' aside it tells it like it is. If what you do is worth $200,000 a year you will make that, if it isn't you won't.




------------------
Ramrise

tech...again
18th April 2001, 13:52
...what an epic post!

FLARE DAMIT
18th April 2001, 14:35
aviator you get my vote----- for PRESIDENT. WELL DONE

brock
18th April 2001, 16:52
is this an extract from the doomsday book?

Tug
18th April 2001, 17:19
Absolutely brilliant.Aviator, your words should be on the preface of all flying study books, and on the back of boarding cards.

AfricanSkies
18th April 2001, 17:25
EXCELLENT post Aviator. Tells it exactly like it is. This should be published.
***** standing ovation.

Big Red L and deepee or whatever your name is or means...drop off...you are both depriving a poor village somewhere of a pair of idiots

MAXIMOL
18th April 2001, 17:36
Quite dramatic.............but makes the point. I will be passing this on to a few of my mates inside and outside the industry.

Thanks for taking the time Aviator.

ojay
18th April 2001, 17:43
Yup,get's my vote.I know it's fashionable to 'downplay' our achievments but casting false modesty aside this is quite accurate.And if we don't say it the beancounters or 'managers', won't.I would think that this is a magazine article rather than a posting.

Kangar
18th April 2001, 18:05
Based on the last few paragraphs, the average GI in any war should've been on about half a million a year..........Spare us the drama. All the sentimental factors seemed to have little effect when you embarked on your career, yet they become so important when discussing remuneration. Yet most pilots will try to tell you they became pilots primarily for the love of flying , and secondarily for money. Doesn't seem that way all the time. People on this board endlessly bitch about management, but very few balanced solutions ever seem to get offered. BTW I am neither mangement nor flight crew, I am an observer..........A pilot is a tough job, and very well done, but it gets spoiled by the endless bitching.

AfricanSkies
18th April 2001, 18:13
Kangar...rubbish
the avergage GI hasnīt chosen it for a career, had one medical to see that his feet werenīt flat, doesnīt have 400 people depending on him, was trained for about 9 months to use about 4 pieces of equipment and would love it if he were fired the next day

ask me..i was one

Big Red ' L '
18th April 2001, 19:45
AfricanSkies Sorry about the comment. It is meant to be taken 'tongue-in-cheek' Have a look around you, you might find you sense of humour somewhere.
Its a brilliant article well thought out and well written. thanks to aviator for taking the time to put this up.

------------------
Its not the fall that kills you...Its the sudden stop.....

Inspector Gadget
18th April 2001, 20:13
You fly a plane. Big deal. Don't make it sound more important than it really is. As per previous threads, you get paid what you are worth, and if that is'nt enough get another job.

MAXIMOL
18th April 2001, 21:41
IG.
I think the point is that we DON'T get paid what we are worth.
And in real terms over the last 10 years or more we as a body have been getting paid less and less, so that more and more people can pay less and less for their tickets!!!

That's all.............

Hard Rider
18th April 2001, 22:42
We're paid what they can get away with.

Either we vote with our feet - but you still have to work somewhere - or we have to stand up for ourselves as a group. Putting this kind of information across to non-pilots must surely help our case. Personally, the whole thing took so long I need a bit of payback before my time runs out ...

minogue
19th April 2001, 00:19
when there are 20 qualified people going for a job at a given salary, that salary is at least good enough.

when there is one qualified person going for 20 jobs at a given salary, that salary is not good enough.

It's really simple. Anybody in any job given five minutes to think about it will come up with a rational and coherent arguement why they should be paid more. All is completely irrelevant. The market rules. If you don't like it go live in North Korea.

loaded1
19th April 2001, 03:57
But it isn't a free market Minogue, and well you know it. Seniority etc sees to that. And guess what? Look around on the board and you will see that, in the end, people DO walk away or refuse to come and play with airlines that treat professional flightcrew with contempt as a tied worker: SIA, that paragon of good employee relations is short of pilots. Great.

The North Korea jibe reeks of the bitterness I see from our managers. What's your problem? Fail to make the grade as a pilot? Or have you joined the ranks of the suits and hold your former colleagues in contempt as a cost item? Being an accountant leaves you feeling there must be something more?

Tell us.

Keg
19th April 2001, 10:39
Aviator, thanks for the article. I reproduced it in a private Qantas pilots Bulleting board with a link to here.

Interesting reading and thanks.

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Nunc est bibendum

KADS
19th April 2001, 11:53
Most impressive writing, Aviator!!!
Whoever has any other opinion has not gone the long way or does not have the dedication required to want to succeed.

AndyPandy
19th April 2001, 12:05
Loaded1

And who jealously guards the seniority system?

Whether we like it or not Minogue is right, market forces rule. It was ever thus.

loaded1
19th April 2001, 12:56
Well AndyP I think the fair answer to that question is both sides. It seems to suit the airlines more these days, and yet I can't think of an acceptable alternative, I admit.

Either way, trades unions are a fact of a democratic and free society too, as is the right to strike if conducted after a legal and fair ballot. I think it is very telling that a professional group such as airline pilots are driven to those lengths, but now they are and the worm is turning. Vereinigung (sp?) Cockpit has done so for its membership; I think you will ultimately see the same here.

poshed
19th April 2001, 13:52
How much should engineers be paid to keep you up there?

Tug
19th April 2001, 14:49
How much do engineers pay to get the licence?

Boss Raptor
19th April 2001, 15:08
In my experience no one in the senior levels of aviation gets paid a salary which compares to equal worth/responsibility in other industries particularly the financial sector. This is true of both flight crew and executive management (with a few exceptions in the latter, mainly with the very large carriers).

I have never discovered the reason why this is but my theory is that the aviation industry is relatively self sufficient with regard to staff - rarely taking in personnel from outside the industry - and therefore the wage rates have developed/matured outside the normal sphere and labour market.

At the end of the day this has been a question of supply and demand - aviation is seen as a 'glamourous' industry with no apparent shortage of willing candidates...high flexability of internal labour market, frequent slumps and resulting available personnel...and in the case of management many both from within the industry and externally who claim to have skills to undertake roles they are neither qualified or experienced for - the title 'aviation consultant' being in widespread use/abuse and all encompassing in meaning and ability!

fireflybob
19th April 2001, 15:25
The reference to engineers (for whom I have the greatest respect and, yes, they should also be paid more) reminds me of a staff meeting for a company I worked for some time ago.
The engineers were complaining that they did not receive yearly increments like the pilots.
The MD/CEO of the company simple got up and said, "It's quite simple - if you want a pilot's pay they become a pilot!" Easier said than done perhaps but there is a moral here somewhere.
The challenge is that most pilots actually like flying which means that many of us get far too "sentimental" when it comes to pay and conditions, etc. We are our own worst enemies in this respect.
The skills which we exercise on a daily basis are taken far too much for granted because flying has become so commonplace.
We need some real changes in attitude from the top to get major changes. Perhaps when retired pilots start sueing companies for "stress" caused by unreasonable working practices we will start to see a difference.
Don't laugh at this suggestion because it is already happening in other industries.

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AndyPandy
19th April 2001, 15:51
fireflybob

I don't laugh at your suggestion I almost cry. Are the majority of cases of sueing for so called 'stress' really because of some long term, irreperable suffering or a case of trying out their luck to get something for nothing (although ultimately of course we all pay the price).

CaptBlack
19th April 2001, 15:52
Brilliant!

411A
19th April 2001, 17:00
Interesting reading, but really does not reflect the currect situation. All of the "military flag waving, I was there while you slept" is typical of USAF/USN types, but these guys joined for the satisfaction & thrill of flying a fast aircraft. To now expect that they deserve a high salary just because they have to pass a medical every six months (just like us civvy types have done for so many years) or have to pass the check ride (again for us civvy types) does not a high salary make. Supply & demand will dictate the wage rate. Simple as that.

RVR800
19th April 2001, 17:51
Whats the difference between a turbofan
and an airline pilot - the turbofan quits
whining at the stand

Only joking - the article is excellent and
deserves publishing - I agree with the
sentiments - the salary is of course dictated
but the market, the numbers of experienced
pilots are diminishing and rates will go up
as a recognition of the time and money and
hassle involved in all this.

scanscanscan
19th April 2001, 19:05
Actually, as the number of experianced pilots goes down, the crash and passenger death rates rate will go up!!See GF072 report.
Safety and wages are now or will be in the future an insurance thing, when the insurance claims cause the insurance industry to become aware of what they are risking things will improve. I welcome the day when the insurance companies do the job various CAA's and Faa's have failed to do.
Insisting that precision approach aids being up and running and in check before they will risk giving insurance cover and prohibiting insurance cover into known Black listed airports untill they are improved.
As they insure only on past record we can expect no evidence of preventive safety, the truth is they are unaware of the new risks out there and the increasing risk of thoes already known. Therefor the line of dead will be much longer than necessary.

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We will do the drill according to the amendments to the amendments I er think?

minogue
20th April 2001, 00:19
Loaded 1, my apologies for not responding earlier to your request for a reply.

I wont turn this intom a discussion on seniority lists although I think at the very least flight crew themselves are as pro these as management.

In the company I work for, a large number of flight crew are the highest paid people in the business bar noone apart from the chief exec. Many people at all levels feel that flight crew are overpaid. Personally I disagree.

I like to think that I was born with the capabilities to be a successful pilot should I have chosen to go down that route. I didnt. If the market decides that a pilot qualification is worth more than mine, so be it, I have no bitterness.

Personally I will encourage my children to consider a flying career as from what I have seen the overall package of salary/ responsibility and lifestyle with all its pluses and minuses offers a pretty good deal.
Others may disagree in which case fine do something else.

My overall point was that a market system
overall is the system society has chosen for this country. Others that have tried other systems like N Korea have generally not done as well. Within our system the market will decide all our salaries in whatever role we have. The market will do this by balancing the forces of supply and demand.

There is nothing wrong with a group of qualified people trying to influence the market by organising themselves. I have read many posts on this site bemoaning flight crew organisation. I think you are unfair to yourselves, most outsiders would say that you are actually very good at it.
Good luck to you all.

A final plea, the site is littered with many postings that immediately accuse of a previous poster of bitterness just because he happens to post an opposite view to the general tide of the discussion. Please accept this and others opposite view postings as a genuine attempt to put the opposite view in a constructive manner.

Roadtrip
20th April 2001, 01:17
Like to see the UK/Euro version of that essay.

BTW, you're only worth $200,000 per year because you have a union that sticks together, uses the labor laws (like management does) to advantage and negotiates from a position of strength. Management doesn't care if it took a millions of dollars in private training and 25 years of experience - they'd only pay you want THEY wanted without the collective voice of a union. Some unions are more successful than others - among the shameful push-overs are American Eagle and BALPA. Imagine agreeing to a 16 year no-strike contract (Eagle) and allowing out-sourcing of YOUR jobs to the likes of Atlas!

[This message has been edited by Roadtrip (edited 19 April 2001).]

Paterbrat
20th April 2001, 11:05
I am very glad I stumbled across the thread. Heartfelt,a great read, and very well put. Didn't do it all that way but quite enough to remember the journey.
Congratulations.

StressFree
20th April 2001, 22:55
Top stuff gents.
Scan - great point, never thought of the issue from that angle.



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'Keep the Stress Down'

fly4fud
21st April 2001, 09:33
Aviator, nice one! This reflects some of The Journey ;)
(pity thou for the useless military showdown... http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif )

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... cut my wings and I'll die ...

Streamline
21st April 2001, 14:53
Good article

Look at all you have to do to get on that deck, and lose it all when you get involved with a femi-nazi.

Build up your career, and lose it all in a divorce-ruling that takes 15 Seconds.

Maybe a bit off-track here, but still within the context of the thread.

Stay in control of your life and career, DO NOT get MARRIED.



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Smooth Trimmer

411A
21st April 2001, 20:38
Or, if you do, remember it's..."cheaper to keep 'em".

James T. Kirk
21st April 2001, 20:49
It's a good read alright and well worth another outing. Didn't it first appear here in mid 1998 when it was cut and pasted from the American Airlines crew website?

Obi Wan Kirk
22nd April 2001, 00:23
Well, Aviator I find your article simply brilliant!
Us pilots should be paid more for what we have to put up with.
Just to fill everybody in with what goes on in Italian Aviation:
Talking to a friend who flies for Volare Airlines on the A320, he told me a First Officer hired just hired earns 1.6 million lira per monthe for 55 hrs flying. That is the equivalent of 500 British pounds or 800 US Dollars. To add to it he/she has to sign a 5 year bond for 75 milion lira (25,000 British pounds, 37,000 US Dollars). If you think that to qualify for a JAR ATPL today it cost around 52,000 British Pounds. No wonder young people go for other professions instead of flying!

Analyser
22nd April 2001, 00:41
Great post Aviatior.Definetly a bit on the dramatic side.
Also a printout has been sent to the local flight school.

Radar Departure2
22nd April 2001, 10:02
Self-congratulatory, ego-boosting, melodramatic nonsense.

Since no specific target was nominated, the "whining non-achievers" it was apparently aimed at would seem to encompass anyone who isn't flight crew. Seems to me I know where the whining is coming from.

By the way, can somebody enlighten me as to why, in a market based system which you all presumably support, the amount of money you spend on qualifications has any relevance at all to your final remuneration?

You've got your salary and conditions, boys and girls, you've got your fancy public image (never put your cap on the rear parcel shelf?) and you are among the select few who make a living enjoying what you do. Good luck to you.

Does your ego also demand that we all fall before you in adulation and gratitude?

RD

Streamline
22nd April 2001, 17:56
Radar Departure2

How much did your training cost?

Who paid it?

And last but not least, is your own life at risk if you or someone else makes a mistake?

Once the gear is up, and things really go wrong the crew is worth millions of dollars.

If the general pubkic would have access to the piles of confidential reports, they would have no doubt.

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Smooth Trimmer

Tug
22nd April 2001, 21:23
When I left school I gave university a go, as did most of my mates. I don't recall working too hard, nor do I remember the need to work hard. Friends put in the absolute minimum study required, which seemed to equate to about five weeks effort, came out with a degree in something, perhaps fasinating events in the world of painters/artists in 12 AD, applied to various large companies for jobs and did very nicely. There wasn't a lot of stress invovlved, certainly hadn't mortgaged the house and most of them found work that had nothing to do with the qualification they had spent three years drinking to get. Now, I don't begrudge them anything, they are great mates. But while they were taking the p!55 & having a good laugh while I was broke paying to fly they were getting paid and had weekends off. While I had a bomb with a wheel at each corner they had very nice comfy company cars. While I had to work out how to do compass swings they were doing their own kind of swinging! And while I was flying out in the middle of nowhere with just one engine fixed to the front they were in their town houses with a nice stroll to the pub.Anyway, after all that, when the money starts rolling in my general direction, which it is now and it's lovely, they are beginning to sit up and take notice. But they can't say I make too much. How can they? We make choices. I chose the expensive option and do what I love and the gamble paid off. But as the original post from 'aviator' said there are plenty of oportunities for it all to come crashing down. I don't really think thats the case for them. And if it did happen they would just brush themselves off, walk a block and get another job. You can talk about market forces etc but for me 'Aviators' piece is about doing something that pays the bills, and the thought of having to pay them any other way is frightening. And there are plenty of opportunities out there to have to pay them another way.

ClearDirect
23rd April 2001, 15:21
RD2
The relevance of the cost of qualification in a free market system is the profit motive.
When you invest, you expect to make a return.
You expect the return to be at least commensurate with the time and money spent, and the risk involved.
BTW there are many market investors out there who love what they are doing, but do not allow that to reduce the returns they expect from their investment.

Streamline
23rd April 2001, 20:28
Nonsens

That's why I got a training worth 200000 Us completely for free.

There were over 2000 candidates and only 6 graduated.

If I add the cost of the investment of the guy's who failed it would be much higher.

Why did they do that ?

Probably because I am not worth it.

I can assure you they got their money back.

Not everyboby with talent can afford a loan or will get a loan, as a consequance a lot of rich daddy's boy's get into the bussiness.

As a passenger you should be happy knowing the guy's up front were very expensive to train simply because money was not an issue only quality.

Your reasoning of investment / return is responsible for a lot that goes wrong in this bussines.

Unfortunately training pilot's has become a bussiness in itself and education should never be like that.

Or are you telling that most doctors are just there to fill their pockets and do not care about their patients.

Be happy that the pilots that are up front do love their job. I would not like to be a passenger if the opposite would be true.

Be also assured that management know that to and if they lack some degree of integity they will abuse that pilot trait at will.

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Smooth Trimmer

[This message has been edited by Streamline (edited 23 April 2001).]

halo
23rd April 2001, 20:29
A fantastic post!!!

One thing.....
Did any of you even give a second thought to all the other people that contribute to your safe aviating. Do any of you ever sit in the flight deck at 37,000ft and think "Hmmm, I wonder if the air traffic controller (who is working his knackers off incidentally) gets paid as much as me". Doesn't it bother you that a large proportion of air traffic controllers never reach retirement age. Where do they go?? They simply die from stress, exhaustion and all the nasty things that come with the job. Do any of you ever sit on the flight deck whilst the aircraft is on the stand, and look out on the apron and see the tug crews, cold, in the pouring rain and freezing wind, lumping a great big tow-bar around so that he can get your aircraft off the stand on time?? Do you think he is worth his salary?? They don't get what you get paid, and they work just as hard!!

Life is unfair. Please remember that you are not the only ones with problems!!!

Streamline
23rd April 2001, 20:49
Yes I do, and I even have a chat with them on a regular basis.

It's only a pity I can not invite them after a 12 hour trip when we get to Chicago and end uo in the middle of some hurrycanes or some heavy snow showers with one of the engines leaking oil getting close to minimum fuel.

I got nearly killed twice by some ATC guy.

Last week a company aircraft made an mayday call in Madrid and the spanish ATC genius did not even understand it.

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Smooth Trimmer

Plastique
23rd April 2001, 22:15
Absolute self gratifying tripe.
Surprised your ego fits in the flight deck. Pilots, engineers, roadsweepers are all paid the minimum required to keep turnover to an acceptable level, and the unions off managements backs.

Any other grandiose dilusion stinks of vanity.

MAXIMOL
24th April 2001, 01:59
There was a very nicely put editorial in Flight International a few months ago, that was to do with expected shortages of pilots. It didn't say that there would not be enough people with licences, it said that there would not be enough suitable people.
You can usually throw money at it and end up with a licence, but that does not necessarily mean that you will be able to cope on that dark, sh**y night when things are going wrong. Not very wrong, but just wrong! You need to pay for quality.......after all a cock up doesn't mean that you are going to lose a few million on the old stocks and shares. It is potentially lives, a lot of lives. It has already been identified that the younger generation don't find the job as attractive anymore. I wonder why?
Life style
Cost
Renumeration.........The fact of the matter is that, comparatively, the job does not pay as it used to. It is only by those of us doing the job, pushing for the appropriate wages that this will change. Bean counters have a good grip on finances but not of the big picture, and therefore it is making more money that counts for them....therefore they squeeze on the wages!

before landing check list
24th April 2001, 02:42
Very good post, but did you see the ones who bitched? ie RD2,Plastick, and deepee? They aparently failed to fully understand the nuance of this post and/or "did not make it". Oh well, it takes all kinds I suppose.

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Here's to cheating, stealing, fighting, and drinking.
If you cheat, may you cheat death.
If you steal, may you steal a woman's heart.
If you fight, may you fight for a brother.
And if you drink, may you drink with me.

DobbinD
25th April 2001, 06:09
How much did you say you paid for those three ATPLs STREAMLINE? Is it cheaper without the validations? And, why did you say that ATC try to kill you twice? Why did they not like you? You are a bad boy, I bet you did your usual thing, and insulted their national qualification.

At least you're flying around a little part of the world and sharing your expertise with the rest of the poorly educated masses.

Keep up the good work STREAMLINE.

DC Meatloaf
25th April 2001, 22:20
Just for comparison's sake...

Here in the U.S., 1.2 million men and women serve as fire and emergency service personnel. They're our domestic defenders -- the first on scene and first line of defense for our communities against the ravages of fire, natural disasters, hazardous materials, accidents, and terrorist actions. They place their lives on the line everyday, fulfilling their responsibility to protect the life and property of over 270 million people nationwide. Every year, an average of 100 lose their lives in the line of duty.

I doubt there's a single career firefighter who makes even half of $200k a year.

Just for context...



[This message has been edited by DC Meatloaf (edited 25 April 2001).]

Reimers
27th April 2001, 04:00
The 35% being asked by several unions and having been granted in the US were only possible because pilots are a scarce resource. Partla because indeed the demands of the profession are quite unique, partly because large airlines during the last couple of years couldn't have bothered less training new pilots, but rather relied on the desire of newbies to pay the training themselves.
Well, it hasn't worked out. Too many graduates left for the e-commerce and other businesses. Also, growth was more than forecasted and now pilots are being sought everywhere.
I hope airlines will learn from this and set up more sponsorship programmes. ATC trains the new controllers, so why shouldn't the large airlines train new pilots?
If the future employee is burdened with the financial risk, he needs some compensation for that, and right now we, the employees can take the compensation.
By the way, the same is true for mechanics as well. They will soon be scarce and surely their pay will rise as well, and they deserve it, too!
So, merry s.t.r.i.k.i.n.g everyone!

Ignition Override
27th April 2001, 09:47
Excellent!

Streamline stated some unfortunate truths on a previous page of this topic.

The COMAIR pilots are STILL on strike, using their market tactics, "streetfighting" against a mgmt which has no respect for the skills which are critical to fly modern aircraft (many routes were previously flown by Delta B-737s and DC-9s, and COMAIR has earned huge profits on the backs of pilots and other employees, many of whom qualify for govt food stamps).

The pilots are not demanding anywhere near major airline salaries. COMAIR pilots are also expected to fund their own retirements out of their own lean pockets.

And their COMAIR management (with Delta Airlines as owner) still expects their right-seat pilots to be paid a lot less than delivery truck drivers at UPS and FEDEX, while their left-seat Captains (turboprop or jet) are paid not much more, if any. And many of these pilots want a career with COMAIR, if given a good incentive to stay,

Nope, I'm not with a regional airline, and can't imagine looking down my nose at the often-impoverished workhorses of the industry.

[This message has been edited by Ignition Override (edited 27 April 2001).]

Al Titude
27th April 2001, 23:35
Listen to all the commercial pilots moan about salaries! I thought I must have clicked on the military forum by accident...

(tongue in cheek!)