There has been a thread drift on another topic and it has lead on to flying above FL 410. I would be interested in peoples experiences, thoughts, etc.

I know of one operation in the UK who have an aircraft capable of flying at FL 510 but the chief pilot doesn't allow operations above FL 390 on safety grounds.

I know another operation that routinely cruises between FL 450 - FL 510 and their SOP is one of the pilots remains with the o2 mask donned during this time.

I know of other operators who fly at FL 410 & FL 450 with no special procedures.

This isn't a "look what aircrat I fly" thread, I just want honest opinions. Even if your current aircraft type doesn't but if the next one could, would you happily operate above FL 410 up to FL 510?

My understanding is you need an active alarmed radiation monitor above FL490 in planet EASA, which precludes european G550's going up to FL510 (G550 AFM ceiling). I am happy to cruise as high as possible, FL470 is very achievable flying within europe, gets you more direct routing, less fuel burn etc.

The back up plan is the 'emergency descent mode' which gets you down to FL150 rapido - however! 'time of useful consciousness' (TUC) up there is only a few seconds based on age/smoker/fitness etc, so in my case it's 2 seconds..... :eek:

well, everyday you see all those easyjets and ryanairs at FL400 to save fuel, so flying 410 or 420 give us more direct routes, they don´t get there. I can go up to 510 certified but we do normally 390-400, i just go up in case on turbulence and long range. For 2-4 hours flight time is not worth going up and you save plenty of radiation, those G550 guys glow in the dark!!!!

Indeed JAA land restricts GLEX and G550s to FL490; depending where you are going and temperature in the troposphere , sometimes it is not very usefull. I flew a GLEX ( early model), and we had O2 canulas in the flight deck to wear at convienence, and definitely SOPs when one crew had to go to the loo above FL420, yes I know it was written 420 to leave some opening at FL410... This was like in a 2 pilots crew, Pressure mask on and used all the time the other guy was not strapped in position, assesment of divertion airports and MSA rehearsed, local QNH obtained, charts preloaded etc..
We flew the GLEX at FL510 for some testing and training, not a very big difference than at FL490 handling wise ( for my sensitivity); this is good for the owner to see it here at least once, and the crews ticked the box, at least no on-line experience :sad: ( this is hope) :=

I flew the Lear31A early ones, this was Uncle sam registration, and we were wandering at 510 sometimes...even in Europe ...yessss

As a matter of fact in a day to day operation, in order to offset the 'setp climbs from ATC' biases, I tend to fly the the first level available above 410; ie 430 or 450, weight and temperature permitting of course. We might loose 3 or 4 minutes on a 2000 miles journey, but we are saving a good chunk of fuel ( around 12%); which is good ( sometimes).

Fly High, Fly Slow, Fly Safe

It is better to start at FL 410 as that eliminates all but most of the traffic. Hence no bug smashers to watch for and other slower traffic to get of course for. And regularly checking your performance for next available FL in your FMS, will give your range a good boost while sipping fuel. After FL 470 it really is lonely up there but quiet and the more direct routing helps as well. O2 is an issue, and compliance mandatory in our ops so we keep the engineer busy refilling the bottle after our long legs across.
The difference? Bragging rights and we do NOT glow in the dark contrary to popular belief.

And its also worth remembering that some 02 masks are not deemed fast donning unless properly stowed in their containers.

I remember an ex-Eastern capt, who liked to run around and 'dispense advice' to us younger chaps...on one such occasion he thought he would educate me on single pilot jet ops and flying up to Fl450 in a Citation Ultra.At the time he was flying a Beechjet and would stay below Fl350 because of O2 concerns...because of this he would always take off overgross, taking as much fuel as he could because flying so low, he could never get the fuel burn to his destination for non-stop, or only stop once. Truth be told he was a smoker, and just couldn't fly in a cabin above 6000 ft. My point: How many guys are flying low, being forced to consume fuel, make the extra stops, or take off overgross, because they are unwilling to fly upstairs? I wonder. The chances of a rapid depressurization, the nasty kind where a window blows out vs a leak are about as likely as winning the lottery. That said, for every guy that whined about me sitting up there by myself at Fl450, I found about three major things he was doing that was even unsafer. Don't throw stones. As far as the number's where they show how much usefull consciousness a pilot has...keep this in mind...planes are designed and tested, then given numbers for us to use based on the most minimaly competent, barely legal, sholdn't be there but is... pilot. So if the insurance company, flight testers, manufucatures, and FAA all think it's ok for any typed pilot to take it up there, then I think I will be just fine...O2 mask on my lap, ready to go. Navy Seals jump out of planes at FL3+ with O2 and don't drop dead. The second point: Honestly, given the typical fitness level of some pilots, yeah they need to sit down there in the teens, not up in the thirties and forties.

Isn't FL420 the unpressurised height at which breathing pure oxygen is likely to be inadequate to retain consciousness.? Hense pressure breathing masks emerged to provide for an extra height capability over FL350.

I had many years of flying Corporate Jets in the flight levels of the mid forties.. Normally no real drama, just follow what is in the flight manual and any special instructions issued by the Local Regulatory Authority.

However I did have three complete depressurizations from flight level 410, which is another story. Many a lesson can be learned, the instinct of survival is a good teacher.

Tmb

Hey Tmbstory, sounds like some experience there, having 3 depressurisations at 410. Fancy sharing some of those lessons? Were they explosive or gradual? What alerted you first? Same type of aircraft each time? No trying to nail you down, just interested in your story as I spend a fair bit of my life at 410.

Cheers,

Chips

Most aircrafts able to fly above say FL430 tend to be Bizjets... And many are operated in a "fairly flexible" manner when it comes to training, hence emergency decents being only practice during the initial sim.
In my opinion, training in recognising, dealing and completing the safest emergency decent (so you don't hit the mountain below for example) is a Must. But like I said, recurrent sims in the real world of Bizjets flying isn't that widespread.
As for practicing in the real aeroplane... Some would say it is better than nothing but really, if your boss who buys expensive toys can't afford a sim once in a while... I would be very cautious with endangering the crew, the aircraft and surroundings.


Now how do we do a thread drift again ? Oh yes, what do u guys tell a new, very green SIC when you see him first ;)
(thought I would maintain that great pprune tradition which has a thread evolving into another one by post number 11 ;))

Amex

Not so over here (EU) the insurance companies are taking matters into their own hands regarding recurrent training, unofficially its sim training every 12 months or 24 with a hike in premiums.

Not sure how it is stateside.

TMB i'm with chippie - spill the beans please

Thanks G-SPOT Lost

I must admit I do not have that much experience on bizjets outside the well established operator we know so I was speaking from what I have observed from friends flying for various, small operators. One of my previous turbo prop GA job, had an initial sim but I was never sent for a recurrent. All done on the aircraft but that was nearly 7 years ago :bored::(
It seems to me that many OPC/LPCs are done in the actual aircraft, during an empty sector, with little or no training element and most certainly no emergency decent, GPWS or TCAS warning.
From an insurance point of view though, is it not possible that the companies are happy with it as long as the box "received training on the 01/04/08" has been ticked ?

Good training remains the key though.

CHIPPIE CHAPPIE / G-SPOTS Lost and others if interested.

I do not normally write long posts but this one needs a little space to relate the events of this incident.

The year was 1981 and the month was September. The mission was to ferry a new Corporate Jet from the manufacturers in the United States via the route Ict/Bangor/Goose Bay/Sonderstrom/ Reykjavik/ Bristol/Munich (Oberpfaffenkofen, called Ober after the first few times)/Kerkyra/Luxor/Bahrain/Muscat/Colombo/Singapore/ Malaysia.

The trip was going very well until we left Colombo bound for Singapore. about 50 minutes after take off and not long after reaching Flight Level 410, an unexpected loud noise from the the cabin area ( with hindsight it sounded like someone with a severe bout of flatulence) was made. The Cabin Altidude started climbing rapidily so both the First Officer and myself reached over our shoulders for the "quick don" oxygen masks.

I could not believe my eyes with what I saw, it looked nothing like an oxygen mask that would go over your face. Looking over to the other pilot, he had the same problem.. Out of the side of my eye I saw a passenger oxygen mask in the beginning of the aisle, I grabbed that, took a few breaths and passed it to the first officer. We did this for the rest of the way down to 10000 ft.

In the meantime I was on the emergency descent, had turned left off the Airway and we were coming out of the sky like a "brick". I saw the cabin altitude going through about 20000 feet as we were in the mid-twenties so I knew we were safe from the threat of TUC (Time of Useful Consciousness). I remember at the time of the problem thinking about how long I would last without oxygen but I did not feel faint, I felt good. May be that was a bad sign.

We had tried to contact the Authorities to let them know of our problem but no success initially. We were over the sea and so turned back and diverted to Ratmalana in Sri Lanka.

Initially I could not understand what had happened to the oxygen masks but when on the ground and after further investigation it turned out that an "O" ring had failed in both masks and the face mask section had fallen down behind both seat backs. We did not have access to this area in flight, in our seats, even if we had known that was the problem.. With hind sight we might have dragged the oxygen masks over our shoulders too quickly when we attempted to "Quick Don" the masks and put pressure on the faulty "O" seals. What I was looking at initially was the barrel of the mask and not the"face mask".

We live and learn.

Thanks for bearing with me on this long post, the second and third incidents and investigation I will put in the next post.

CHIPPIE CHAPPIE / G-SPOTs Lost and others if interested.

Part 2 cont.

At Ratmalana, engineers ( who had flown in from Singapore) took the pressurization system to pieces, changed the door seal (at this stage the main culprit), made tests and then put it all back together. A test flight was carried out, it was satisfactory, so we then went to Colombo airport, cleared the formalities and departed for Singapore. The flight was uneventful.

We thought that was the end of the problem, however 11 days later on a trip to Kota Kinabalu, the second and same problem returned. Just after the top of climb the door seal collapsed again, so down we went. We had new oxygen masks that worked, so no real drama. Upon landing at KK, the Regulatory Authority Airworthiness people had a good extensive look at what a cabin looks like on this type of aircraft after an emergency descent. Engineers went through the whole process again and so the saga continued.

The elasped time of the flight when the seal collapsed was about the same as the first incident, so that was a clue.

The aircraft behaved itself for another 42 days and then came the third incident. In the middle of the night over the middle of the South China Sea , we had the whole issue again.

The Engineers, The Authority and myself said enough is enough and so the aircraft was grounded until the reason for the problem was found.

It took some days for the Engineers and The Authority to find the problem. The whole of the interior near the door and the incoming pressurization line was taken out. It was found that the heating and cooling ducting was not putting any warm or hot air to the non-return valve at the lowest point of the pressurization plumbing. The valve was non - return in name only, so we suspected that freezing had something to do with the problem. We also found that the incoming pressurization line had some moisture and water in it. The Manufacturer of the aircraft said this was not possible, however they were wrong. We put the valve in a deep freeze ( of course it was not cold enough) , so the decision was taken for a test flight with a camera on board. Sure enough the whole valve became frozen with hoar frost which would also include the water and moisture inside, so the problem was found.

The fix was to fit a duct that supplied hot air to the valve all the time. This coupled with a purge of the pressurization line upon right hand engine start to get rid of any moisture fixed the problem and there were no more door seal issues. The Manufacturer issued a modification for all existing and future models to be incorporated.

That is the end of this story, hope it has been of interest to you.

We all live and learn ,I certainly did!

Tmb

Thanks Tmbstory :ok:

TMB Thanks

What was the aircraft type if you dont mind me asking

G- SPOTs Lost;

It was a Citation 2 C550

Tmb

So you were flying a straight Citation II at FL410? ;)

I have been viewing this thread for a while and thought I'd post a couple of thoughts.

First I have no problem flying an aircraft at it's maximum certified ceiling. For many years the only civilian aircraft to be certified to to fly at FL 510 were Lear Jets. In fact we were given pins with 510 on them that we could wear, I still have mine somewhere. Now even in the Lear 28/29 you could not takeoff and go straight to FL 510, on a minus ISA day you could go straight to FL 470 or 490 depending on the weight of the aircraft, then usually an hour later you could go on up to 510.

Now secondly just because the aircraft was certified for a high altitude did not mean that you really wanted operate at the maximum. Take for an example the Saberliner, all series were certified for FL 450. Now the 40 and the 60 had no problem going to 450 after an hour or a half or so, but the 80 model, forget it, I never got an 80 model anywhere near 450. The 65 could, but only after about four hours.

On the Falcon 900EX it seemed that unless you had really low minus ISA and were light there was not much of a point going above FL 470, on the 50EX 450 was it.

As I was either the chief pilot or a senior captain I always had the other guy or gal wear the mask so I could smoke. :p

Just kidding now, just kidding on the smoking bit. Kidding on making the other person aways wear the mask as well, we took turns.

Tmbstory, Thanks for the stories :ok: Might help some of us down the road sometime with a similar problem and it's reminder for us to check our oxygen masks regularly.

it sounded like someone with a severe bout of flatulence

Whatever the root cause, it would be good reason to don the oxygen mask :eek:

Cheers,

Chips

LFS:

"So you were flying a straight Citation II at FL410? ;) "

What an odd thing to say. It'll get up there OK, provided you don't wring it's neck in the climb and step up properly. Hell, we used to do it regularly in the C500, let alone the 550!

Not something I like to do regularly these days mind, as here in Euro land it doesn't give you too many sectors until you hit the 1 mSv "glow in the dark" limit.

Sepp, you get lots of provocative comments like that here on PPRUNE that don't actually add anything to the thread. Best to ignore them and hope they go away. ;)

Cheers,

Chips

lol, true, true... :oh: :)

Look for Shooter:

Sure was until I had to go down.

It would have been nice if the wings were swept, however I did not want that to happen on the way down.

Tmb

CHIPPIE CHAPPIE:

Thank you for the comment.

Take care

Tmb

Not to be provocative...but taking a C500 to FL410, is a slow, slow, time consuming practice, that practicaly negates any range/performance benefits...doing it on a regular basis? Not with me on board...you'd be sitting on the lav...I want to get there some time today...

Today may be, but 20 years ago, this was the key.. Especially with the long wing and the -B engines. Remember, this was a time of no RVSM, NO TCAS, NO TAWS, no 8.33Khz; no TSA, no yellow jackets, Very few airport slots, JetA1 at 70cts/USG. No radiation detection on arrival, able to load a nailclip or a weatherman multitool in your flight case without being a terrorist.. Still aviation of the olds days.

Yes the 501 would go to 410; yes it was necessary under certains circonstances, yes FAR25 aircrafts are flying by the book..; If they do not in someone hands, one's should look at the operating habits.

The depressurisation happened to me on a 501 twice for the same reason but on a different aircraft, once at FL350, the other one at FL390..this was back in 1990; door Seal...:mad: The Ops guy, (if he reads this post), gave me as a birthday present a little box, with plasters and bathroom sealant to cure the leaks, LoL...
By the way , this was in U.K. ; Home of the Comet....

since then....:ok:

I've heard many jokes about the englishman, irishman and the scotsman but not the one about a depressurised (american built) aircraft flown by a frenchman in the UK. What's the punchline then?

the flight was not in UK airspace, the aircraft was based out of UK...

Whoooooosshh!!!



:O