Long Range Choice - advise sought!

[fullyspooled]

Seeking "one stop" anywhere in the World. G500, G550, 7X, Global XRS? Having not operated any of these types would welcome advise from those WHO HAVE. Pros and cons related to each, assuming that field performance is not restrictive. Particularly interested to learn about maintenance schedules/problems/costings, cabin comfort, for PRIVATE operation only.

I would also welcome information on current NEW pricing trends. Long wiat lists, but earlier position pricing often seems very attractive compared to waiting. What exactly is happening in this "position" market?

Thanks

[AA717driver]

If you have to ask, you can't afford it... :hmm:

Long waits to purchase any of the above aircraft new. Huge premium for used. Take your pick.

G500--Not as long legs as the 550.

G550--The king. See above re: wait time in decades (well, almost...). $55m basic.

7X--Not as long legged at the others. Nice though. Delivery positions can be had--for a price (I believe).

GLEX--Reliability issues. Long wait times (less than for a G, but still years away). Better cabin.

$65m for a used G550. I know of a couple coming on the market in '11.

Good luck. TC

[refplus20]

:ok:

G550 gets my vote.

Pros

Reliability
Support
Equipment
Comfort

Cons

Brakes (A fix is now available)
High density seating impacts galley space too much

[CL300]

flown the GLEX and the falcon family at bit of G2/G3/G4 but not the G5/550 for the time being on a F2TH EASy

1st GLEX

Cabin comfort, good systems, CAMS improved, for private ideal nice to fly

2nd Gulstream

Nice cabin but too narrow, nice windows, "tube effect" 550 nice avionics but I believe it is still an american muscle car, nice on a straight line a nightmare in the turns....


3rd 7X

Cabin is TOO SMALL !!! it is the same width and height of a F2TH !!! a pure joke !! but 3 engines, no etops consideration, but in private who cares anyway. Nice avionics package but have to wait for phase 2.



If looking for something comfortable go for a BBJ...same price, a little bit more expensive to run but for private use it does not really matter does it ? The service is definitely there. Downside limited to FL410 where the others are in the quietness of the troposphere.....

[African Drunk]

G550 would have my vote GLEX has a way to go.

[jungle drums]

Hi Refplus20,
out of interest what is the fix to the G550 brakes?
JD

[Itswindyout]

As to the brakes, assuming the restrictor sorted, then they are not much better, still bite.

If left outside for a few days, they bite more.

Solution, for me, is to only use one side at a time, thus only half the bite......

do chickens bite.?

but it works for me.

windy

[refplus20]

Hi JD.

The fix a multi-part one I believe. Ours is booked in for it in November. I know part of the mod it to install GIV hydraulic accumulators and there are some other items to be changed. I'll speak with our Chief Eng next week and get more info if you like. Sadly you need to book a long way ahead as the replacement parts are prioritised for the production line aircraft.

One footed braking is the answer right now, but which side? On ours the left brake is slightly less grabby, but it seems to vary from s/n to s/n

RP

[Doodlebug]

Have not flown Gulfstreams/Falcons.

The earlier Globals are not the best when it comes to reliability, very true indeed.

However friends and colleagues on later GLEX/XRS serial-numbers seem generally happy. Do bear this in mind when deciding, seeing as the cabin, galley, crew-rest are very user-friendly indeed.

[HS125]

3rd 7X

Cabin is TOO SMALL !!! it is the same width and height of a F2TH !!! a pure joke !! but 3 engines, no etops consideration, but in private who cares anyway. Nice avionics package but have to wait for phase 2


Cabins: Height Width Length
GLX 6.25 8.17 48.35
GLX (5000) 6.25 8.17 42.47
GV 6.20 7.3 50.1
DA2000 6.20 7.7 26.3
DA900 6.20 7.7 33.20
DA 7X 6.20 7.7 44.80

The 7X figures come from a different source, so It's not beyond the relms that they encapsulate more cabin length than the DA900 figures (although my appreciation is that it is bigger) No offense but I can't see why its too small or a joke.

Given the nature of the original discussion, I think the F2TH is out of the question on range but lacking further information, I'd say I wouldn't feel second class in any of these!

Edited because.....
:ugh: Pprune ignored my careful table formatting, All dimensions in feet

[fullyspooled]

Guys, thanks for the info thus far received.

G500/550 - I wasn't aware of the braking problem, but if it's being attended to on new aircraft in build this is a comfort factor as it is likely to be ta toss up between this and the 7X:. I haven't actually seen the cabin of the 500/550, so wonder if the competition claim that it is a "narrow tube" is true or not.

7X - yes, great field performance but smaller cabin.,although does offer the three engine comfort factor, and (incredibly) a lower total fuel burn on long legs if I am not mistaken. Has to be a serious contender for our proposed (few pax) missions of typically 5,000 miles, and suited to the 150 mile hops that we also often have a need for.

Global - bigger cabin than required (for two pax on long range flights), and perhaps too large an airplane for the sometimes very short (30 min) hops that are needed. Fuel burn to push such a big airplane through the sky is heavy compared with competition. Concerns pointed out seem to be in line with what I had heard.

BBJ - see above re TOO BIG for two pax, although on some flights the idea of losing them somewhere in the airplane does sound appealing!

What does intrigue me however is the current market. I can order a "position" on a 550 for circa $53M plus options and wait two years, but if I want a USED model now at two to three years old they are asking $60M+!!! What kind of market is that? I'm also wondering just why it is that the G500 seems not to be available in the "positions" market. If it was, I would be tempted to choose it as first choice!

[CL300]

7X from a HS125 is indeed a big aircraft, but after 13 hours....Give a Glex PLEASE !!!

for pax...well it is about the same...Unfortunately , I have to seat on the left side after the entrance, so I cannot really compare :bored:

[jr of dallas]

Just a question CL300 you come from the HS125 or the GLEX ...just wondering how you can compare if not?

7x is a good acft for pilots (it's like flying a fighter jet with fbw), though I agree it doesn't look as big as a Glex or GV but that's not the philosphy behind it....it's fuel consumption and "unrefuled range concept" i.e how far can you go after a short hop at mach 0.8 to the MLW of the Glex for example (78600lbs) you have #3800 nm remaining range without refueling left at mach .80 as a comparaison on 7x you have #5100 nm left ( that is 1300nm more).
Once again I am just talking about what i know and just wanted to clarify some concepts rather than saying wich aircraft is better than other...(mine is bigger than yours is also on the same level)

[CL300]

The question was like.. you have 50+ Mio USD which long range aircraft would you buy...Since I'm only flying the aircraft and not staying 13 hours in the cabin..

Having flown some of them, my choice will go to the GLEX. Until the 7X operational downsides are solved, AND if you will fly at the prescribed non_drag speed of M.80 only you will make the range.

The dassault propaganda about one short hop after max fuel and you can go 5000 Nm is nice but who give a Dam ?
You want to take Off and land at max gross ? for a short hop ? how efficient that is ?
Long range is to prevent a fuel stop, this why Gulfstream is making a hit with the 650 and 7000 Nm...

7X : FBW, TBW, BBW, and 23 kt Xwind LIMITATION !!! Even better if the Water computer goes fishing , you have no toilet or water in the aircraft....long range ? Dassault hide the problems of the 7X to keep market quiet (my opinion) but a long way to go... Judging by the fact that 4 years after the F2TH Easy initial deliveries there is still no Flight Director availble below 400 ft... Advanced aircraft ? And in order to make people "waiting" Dassault publishes Field Service Advisories, essentialy maintenance actions to be performed by pilots...The one to refill engine oil is a pure joy. :\

[jr of dallas]

Dear CL300,

I am not selling any propaganda from Dassault and I 'm just an "user pilot" but you seem to know so much on that subject that I have no more to say, I've obviously not a such deep knowledge of the Bombardier and Dassault product to be as precise as you are....

Safe flight

[Gulfstreamaviator]

Research suggests that the MOD is the old mod ie the restrictor valve in the hyd line.

This mod never worked for me, or any other G550 guy I know.

Glf themselves say it is not worth doing.

So unless this is a mod that my man in Glf is unaware of, just use the one foot technique. Use alternate feet whenever you see a significant rise in your blood pressure or aircraft brake temperatures.

glfflyer

[g4phil]

Just listened in on the EIS telephone conference, they are going to replace the BMV's with ASC 074 release 4Q 2008. The flight testing phase of the evaluation is now complete.

Brake Metering Valves (http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dcrkn4p8_64ckgpp6hh)

[icarus sun]

If you can afford it, the BBJ,plenty of room,cheap to run,very good range.:E

[chornedsnorkack]

Have a look at MTOW-s:

Gulfstream 550 - 41 277 kg.

Gulfstream 500 - 38 601 kg.

Gulfstream 450 - 33 521 kg.

Gulfstream 350 - 32 160 kg.

Compare Falcon 7X - 31 299 kg.

No wonder Falcon has less range than G550: it has much less weight. I suspect that Falcon 7X does more with the same fuel than G350 can. G350 range is 3800 nm, cabin length 13,7 m. Slightly longer than 7X, but narrower.

Bombardier Global Express XRS - 44 452 kg.

Bombardier Global 5000 - 41 957 kg.

Bombardier Challenger 605 - 21 683 kg.

Bombardier Challenger 850 - 24 041 kg.

Challengers have a rather limited range. Challenger 850 has large cabin (no wonder - airliner!) and therefore short range for weight, while Challenger 605 also has maximum range of just 4045 nm.

[tallinnman]

From a flightcrew's perspective which has the most comfortable/roomiest flightdeck of these aircraft and in particular any issues with a 2m pilot in the 7X/900EX.

[CL300]

F2TH/DA90/7X share the same cockpit, slight advantage to the 7X since no yoke in the middle. But 13 hours in there with 2 meters to fold....aouch....

Roomiest cockpit besides BBJ is the Global...

[ww2flyer]

At the NBAA Bombardier will be offering another ultra long range aircraft in excess of 120k LBS to compete with G650. That will be the best option.

[Pragmatic_Twitch]

Do you think the G650 competitor will be born from the new CSeries? or a new airframe?

FullySpooled: If this new Canadian bird is based on the CSeries, it may be worth your consideration.

[AA717driver]

Maybe the C-series fuselage but can you hang a wing on it that will give it the speed and range to compete with the 650?

On topic: If you can find a delivery position on a G550 in two years for $53M, take it and immediately sell the plane for $7M profit and buy a F900. ;) From what my previous employer says, a two year wait is doubtful unless someone gives up a slot.

Re: G550 brakes. They're a pain but not unmanageable. If you had a fix to make them smooth as butter all the time, do it. If it's a modest improvement, live with them.

Having come from an airline background, the G550 always felt like I was in one of those WWII submarines--constantly ducking into the crew rest to allow someone to pass. TC

[Doodlebug]

Yup, 717, that's exactly what I meant with 'user-friendly'. Those GLEX's that have the curved work-surface in the galley really give you space, invaluable when your world is reduced to the crew-rest, galley, front bog and cockpit for 13 hours, sometimes with up to 3 pilots and two dames.

[Lookforshooter]

Let's talk reliability, ability to get the plane worked on anywhere, non stop anywhere? Speed, let's assume .85 or better..don't want to be limited to 41 and below? .and how about cost? Let's say $15 mil vs 50 mil for new....as far as I am concerned, you really can't beat a used GIV for the money and what it does. Guaranteed you put me in one of those..no one is going to beat me anywhere, no one can get a better ride, or a better landing, no one is going to bitch about the cabin size or the fuel burn.

[Denti]

Roomiest cockpit besides BBJ is the Global...


Have to disagree, roomiest in that comparison ist he ACJ :}

[Doodlebug]

I'll fly whatever pays me enough to get myself an ASG 29, and gives me the off-time to enjoy it! :}

[Doodlebug]

*coughs* sorry, pardon the brief flight of fancy there...

If half of what one hears on the road is true your average Gulfstream does seem to be more reliable than the older GLEX. I am currently on an old one and it certainly keeps us on our toes. The newer ones are much improved and probably on a par with Gulfstream, however the back-up provided by Bombardier is not always the best and I suspect that that's one of the issues referred to in the above pro-G4 post. Have to concur there.

I do know of an owner who turned down a Gulfstream for a GLEX, purely for the bigger cabin!

An ACJ, now I'm sure that's comfort! :ok:

[chornedsnorkack]

An ACJ, now I'm sure that's comfort!
As is Airbus 380.

C series business jet... yeah, no doubt inserting VIP interior and extra fuel tanks is trivially feasible. Just as it is on BAC 1-11, DC-9, MD-80, Boeing 717, Fokker 28, 70 or 100, or Superjet 100 or ARJ21, or Boeing 737-200 or 727-100.

But while this gives better range than the baseline regional jet, the range remains worse than that of dedicated longhaul business jet.

Compare Fokker 100 against Bombardier Global Express. MTOW is 43,4 t for F100, 44,5 t for Global Express. Both have wingspans slightly over 28 m. The range of Global Express, however, is much longer: F100EJ can achieve just 3200 nm, which is more than the airliner range of 1700 nm, but less than the 6300 nm of Global Express.

The reasons are that F100 must haul much bigger fuselage with its drag and weight. The same fuselage, however, offers extra comfort and accommodation space.

Boeing Business Jet and ACJ offer roughly the same range, in their VIP versions, as do GLEX and GV, and much more accommodation volume - but at higher drag and fuel cost.

If the GV/GLEX range is not enough then what you need will be a widebody like B767 or A330, or bigger. Or conceivably VIP 757 or Tu-204 or DC-8.