just read that there might be a little problem with the captains and first officers at SAS. appearantly they do not get along very well!!!! well, i would like to give all my 2 cents............. you old military pilots need to lighten up, what we do, is not rocket science, even though you might think so. and also, you are no longer in the military and therefore the first officers need NOT to take your stupid orders. you might think it is okay to tell "your" first officer how to use "your" technic to fly the airplane...it is not cool at all. so you idiot captain, just let "your"first officer fly the airplane their way!!! good on all you first officer.............give all the idiot captains hell.

The way I heard it, it's the younger FOs that's giving the older 60+ captains all this grief because they want them to retire so they can move up the ladder...

I heard the same. Apparently it's all due to the EU/EEC pension age being established at 65, giving the senior crew the odd 5 years extra service time in comparison to the previous arrangement. I also heard rumours about the youngest FO in SAS being 40 years old. If that is the case, I can understand the frustration, although it wouldn't justify the use of threats and misbehaviour to force early resignations.

This is just another example of how the national tabloids are still in vacation mode and don`t really have anything to write about. But the accusations are such that SAS needed to put forth a statement to the contrary. Don`t think this is a problem personally, as I`ve never heard of it before. "Problem" meaning that I don`t think it`s a widespread issue.

Icenor and aloha, I heard the same - that it has to do with senior Captains flying past their retirement age within the company.

All the while these captains are flying past 60, and younger FOs are still furloughed with possibly hundreds more to come - I can appreciate the "younger" pilots' somewhat hostile attitude towards the selfish 60+ guys. I would sure as shit be pi§§ed off if I got the boot, and some 60+ ego-trippers were still in their left seat, cashing in both pension and full captain's salary...
On the other hand - what they are doing is 100% legal, and it all comes down to one's own moral principles and standards. I also know that a few of these 60+ pilots have had trouble with their pension schemes, and were shafted by the company when they made the switch from WF to SC back in the nineties.
Always two sides to it I suppose. Either way, these 60+ guys have had their time to prepare for retirement at 60. They did not know about the 65 rule back then, and should have planned for retirement accordingly...

This is just another example of how the national tabloids are still in vacation mode and don`t really have anything to write about.


Give them something to really beat up on. COCKPIT CREWS NOT GETTING ENOUGH.

Unfair to ask the captains to retire in my opinion. At the end of the day we all look out for no 1, and that's just the way it is. You don't hear too many FOs willing to reduce their own salary so the company can hire some low-hour wannabees and give them a foot-in, right?

Relations in the SK NORGE cockpit has never been better. This is blown out of proportions!!

Gnirren......:ugh:

Nothing morally wrong in staying in your vocational profession as long as you want.

One aspires for it , one trains for it and some pay for it dearly. So enjoying it is everyone's privilege and right. We ALL hope to get there and wish that we can...

Not senior commanders' fault, if the company wades in trouble year after year...SAS needs a heads up call, needed it years ago...

Time for some eggsucking...

S

But what isn`t clear to me yet... The industrial agreement (company vs union) is retirement at 60? No? And of course the JAA/EU maximum age is 65. So what gives? Isn`t the airline overstaffed? And why and how has this deal, sidestepping an agreement, been made? :confused:

Stanleycup said and also, you are no longer in the military and therefore the first officers need NOT to take your stupid orders.

You have a US tag on your avatar so from a US point of view, you are quite incorrect.
The FARs are quite clear there is only one PILOT IN COMMAND. Granted a good crew works together and does not get to the point where the PIC has to give commands but it happens.

And it is usually referred to as a 'technique', not a 'technic'. Most of the PICs are happy to leave the F/O to his/her own devices as long as they abide by procedure and do a good job. The problem sometimes arises however that the new guys/gals don't know half as much as they think they do. And you're right. It is not rocket science but it is also not just a moving video game.

A bit of advice which will probably be wasted.. if you feel this adamant and angry while still just a F/O, you may not last long enough to make Capt and if you do, you may not make it to retirement. Anger and stress have a way of quieting things down while reducing body temperature... to room temperature.

wileydog3......Your post is excellent and to the point

O:D

A bit of advice which will probably be wasted..


Well put "kernel". Still have the burning desire to always give out some of your expert advice. I rest my case....................

Stanleycup:

I'm hoping -just hoping- that you really don't fly an airplane for a living. And if you do, then we truly, truly (can't emphasise this enough) need a better screening program for this profession.

The reason that 110 of you younger cadet pilots are out of work is simply that 110 of the oldest SAS captains will not accept that they at the age of 60 have earned a full wage for 30-40 years, and have a full pension scheem paid on their behalf!

The most selfish pilots since flying was borne!

Shame on them!

H

Well put "kernel". Still have the burning desire to always give out some of your expert advice. I rest my case....................

Not really. Whether you take the advice or not matters little to me. I don't have to fly with you. With 40+yrs in the cockpit (military, gen-av, airline) I have seen more than a few guys self-destruct due to anger and stress. But by all means.. have at it.

As noted, the FARs, not me, says you don't have a case. There is only one PIC and that person is authorized by the Federal government to give commands, not the SIC. And unless the PIC operates outside the ops manual issued by the carrier and approved by the FAA, the SIC has no basis for not complying.

But to give you the benefit of the doubt, how many hours do you have? What do you fly now and what did the 'idiot pilot' do that triggered your diatribe?

Hanguren said The reason that 110 of you younger cadet pilots are out of work is simply that 110 of the oldest SAS captains will not accept that they at the age of 60 have earned a full wage for 30-40 years, and have a full pension scheem paid on their behalf!

Who paid for the pension? Surely you are not suggesting that the company is paying it as some form of largesse. Pensions are deferred income set aside as part of the total compensation package. At least they are in the US.

Selfish? If I understand your argument, you think that one group should stop being selfish and impeding another group from doing what they want. If so, it seems that the cadets are also being selfish.. and should stop trying to take jobs from old pilots.

So basically it`s a dog eat dog world, but we still have to get along in the pointy end of an aircraft:E Go figure:}

The total compensation package includes pension, paid by the company, and the same collective agreement states that pilots shall retire at the age of 60. The EU laws against age discrimination make some problem to this part of the agreement, but it seems like the parties finally have found a way around it:
Take Off - Daily

http://tmcomponents.travelmarket.com/modules/TM_imagebank2/upload/90/resize/140sasvinge1401.jpg Nu afgøres SAS-piloters skæbne


SAS-ledelsen mødes i dag med repræsentanter for selskabets pilotforeninger. Parterne skal drøfte fremtiden for 110 piloter, som bliver overflødige om et år, når de planlagte 18 fly parkeres.

Torsdag middag mødes SAS-ledelsen med repræsentanter for selskabets omkring 1850 piloter for at drøfte, om det er muligt ad frivillighedens vej at finde en løsning for de omkring 110 fuldtidspiloter, som bliver overflødige, når selskabet som led i spareplanerne om et år har sat de planlagte 18 ekstra fly på jorden. Det skriver epn.dk

Formanden for de danske piloter, Mogens Holgaard, siger til Ritzau, at piloterne i Norge, Danmark og Sverige i hvert land har undersøgt, hvor mange der er interesseret i deltidsstillinger for på den måde at komme overtalligheden til livs.

Blandt de danske piloter har interessen for frivilligt at trappe ned været stor. Præcis hvor mange der ønsker en deltidsstilling til reduceret løn har han ikke et nøjagtigt tal på, og derfor er Mogens Holgaard spændt på udfaldet af torsdagens møde.

”Jeg håber, at vi kan klare det ad frivillighedens vej, men det afhænger af, om puslespillet går op. Ellers er vi enige om, at det ikke er de yngste piloter, der skal ud. Så må det i første omgang være de piloter, som er berettiget til at gå på pension,” siger Mogens Holgaard.

The total compensation package includes pension, paid by the company

Where do you think the money to pay the pension comes from?

One of us does not understand how pensions are funded.

In Scandinavia the pension is payed by the company.

All fired yesterday :ok:

I still think you are missing the point. Yes, the payment comes from the company however it is part of a deferred compensation.

I hire you to fly my plane. I will pay you $500 today OR I will pay you $350 in cash, $50 in insurance and $100 toward your pension. It is all YOUR money but you decide how you want it. Why this way? Because you don't need all that money right now, you don't want to pay taxes on it and I get to deduct it from my taxes.

Pensions are NOT paid for by the employer. It is money that you set aside for the company to pay you LATER.

There is no such thing as a free lunch and that includes a pension!

Wiley; The point is that the collective agreement you refer to states that these money will be paid to you pension account until the age of 60, whereafter you shall retire! These pilots though use the new EU laws to try to stay in their jobs even though the CLA states otherwise.

I dont see your point at all!

If you feel its ok that these pilots use the law against the CLA, it is fine with me, but dont use the way SAS pay out salary and pension as a reason. That is completely irrelevant!

And as mentioned above; As of yesterday the problem is a bit smaller...:D

I dont see your point at all!

Yes, I realize that. You are arguing they must quit. I was pointing out the error about how pensions are earned and paid. Two different points.

But the argument some made was the company provides the pension as though they woke up one morning and said, "you know.. Hanguren is old and no longer works but we are going to continue giving him some money." That is NOT how pensions work and the correct term to understand them is deferred compensation.

The other specious argument was that because some young turks wanted a job that the old turks must quit. That smacks of entitlement and more and more we see that philosophy (somebody OWES us!) in the US. It is a sad commentary.

IF the law says that at age 60 you must retire, fine. That too is something that was negotiated. Fortunately here in the states, we have had the age 60 law removed... not that I wanted to continue flying for an airline.

As I see it, all the employees working under the same CLA are collectively paying each other's pension. Simply because we, as a group, have forced the company to so so through collective negotiations.

A single pilot would never had the ability to negotiate a pension anywhere near the pension we now have in SAS. Or in any larger airline, for that matter.

Hence, if one pilot breaks the collective agreement by continuing to work after the agreed upon retirement age, which means that he both gets his salary and their pension at the same time, then he is in fact stealing money from the collective.

It's a selfish act that destroys the pilot group's ability to sustain a decent pension system.

Boarding.no reporting that 50 are to get the letter in the end of September, and another 40 in 2009.

Nick said, as I see it...

Fine. I give up. A pension is paid by someone other than the one collecting it and it is essentially a free ride for old farts who have worked for 30-35yrs. :ugh:

It's a funny business we're in. For the longest time the unions in SAS fought and struggled to get a good pension and a low retirement age (58).

And now, after it's been in effect they (the pilots) start fighting to not have to retire early. :}

It's gonna be interesting to see how many lawsuits that will be filed against SAS from disgruntled old pilots being fired out of seniority, and who are hell-bent on flying past 60?

I'm hoping -just hoping- that you really don't fly an airplane for a living. And if you do, then we truly, truly (can't emphasise this enough) need a better screening program for this profession.
http://static.pprune.org/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif http://static.pprune.org/images/buttons/report.gif (http://www.pprune.org/report.php?p=4354782)
CS
Here we got our selves another "kernel".
Well, welcome aboard. Your hopes are unfortunately not in your favor....I do work as a pilot for living.
Maybe you can write your company and just let them know that only people with military experience and military personalities can fly our airplanes, that might make you sleep better at night.
I'm on deck..............

Wileydog3: This is incredible! Throughout the thread you act like everyone else are complete idiots, and you even dare to finish with a :ugh: when Nick F in an easy to understand way explains how things work...

It is the collective that pays for the pension exactly the way you argued: We have put quite a lot of our pay increase in pension instead of other issues like pay, days off, vacation etc, and then the 60+ people are trying to use the law to attack the CLA that gave them a good pension deal! That is disgusting!

If you do not understand this, it is YOU that have a really big problem!!!

KK

Pensions, agreements etc. This is partly why SAS is going so bad. All the 43 (or whatever) unions are killing the company because they all want constantly more...
And of course, the older you get the more grumpy you become. Having an average of 49 in FD does not make it better. All the old guys are talking and fighting about is there pension, instead of trying to keep the company together.

Its so stupid! :ugh:

Retire, get a life and let the younger and less moaning people take control!

:*

Not really. As someone who saw the union reps agree to give up my pension (read deferred compensation) I am very familiar with pensions, pension fundings and pension terminations. I am familiar with how pensions are funded and what happens after they are either terminated or frozen in the US at least. Maybe and more likely from the heat I am taking, the pension system in Norway is markedly different.

If my posts offended, my apology. And again, maybe everyone in Norway understands pensions. That is not the case in the US. Many seem to think it is some a kind gesture by the company when in fact, the pensioner has paid for and invested in the deferred compensation. You accrue x benefits based on your time with the company and YOUR earnings, not someone else's. And although the pension was negotiated by collective bargaining, the union puts nothing in the pot toward the pension.

In the US, companies took the deferred compensation and invested it or bought annuities which then made payments to pensioners. It is not now and never was some gift for being a good, long term employee.

As for laws and as for what is negotiated, you will find (If Norway is anything like the US) that a mere stroke of the pen will give and take away. In the US, after 9-11 many companies used the 'force majeure' clause to essentially gut the contracts. And when the employees challenged the company for enacting the clause, the courts said, "Nope.. they can do that." And the company walked away from contract after contract.

Then there is a big differense wileydog3: In Norway, in genereal, all pensions are paid in to the insurance company, and what you have on your account, and can not be a part of any settlement among creditors in a bankrypcy etc. It is your money.

That is though only the main rule. In SAS, some of the pension (appr. 20%), exceeds the governmental maximum allowed pension, and this part is to be paid in cash by SAS, and not through the insurance company. If SAS goes bankrupt, or it is agreed upon by the unions, this part of the pension may be lost.

I have been in quite a lot of meetings with representatives from USALPA, also about pensions, and have heard about the pension robbery that many US airlines were allowed to do after 9-11. I am really sorry to hear that you are one of these pilots!

And; You did not offend me, but when I read some of your posts, it seemed like you thought that some of us were idiots when we did not agree with you. Reading your last post, I understand that this is not the case...

Best of luck!

Krok

In Norway, in genereal, all pensions are paid in to the insurance company, and what you have on your account, and can not be a part of any settlement among creditors in a bankrypcy etc. It is your money.


That would be like the "B Fund" slice of the pension in the US.
Not even God can take that one away...:sad:

What the company can avoid paying out under the chapter 11 protection from creditors would be the "A" fund.
(Just ask the United and Delta guys :uhoh: )

That being said, the US Government will kick in with some kind of sharply reduced "pension guarantee" of about 30 cents on the dollar or some such amount if indeed the "A" fund is lost under chapter 11.

And as KapteinKrok says, it would and should be in the interest of the SAS employees that the company doesn`t go bust, as they then could lose their company paid portion of their pension. But that would mean thinking well ahead, and in aviation that`s almost impossible:eek: