RAF to Airline - Quality of Life

[Paat]

Hi,

I'm a currently serving pilot in the RAF (C-130K then J and now an A2 QFI on EFT, total time 4000+hrs) For the first time in my 20 years service I'm seriously considering leaving the RAF for the airlines so am looking to get a feel for which airlines and fleet (long/short haul) offer the best quality of life.

I won't be leaving for at least 2 years yet so not so concerned over who is/isn't recruiting at the moment. But I'd be very grateful for any feedback on your airlines work schedules, quality of management, how much you enjoy the job vs how much the job offers you a lifestyle away from work, general quality of life and fun factor. Obviously, pay is a factor but not the only one and I'd rather find a job that offers me good all-round lifestyle than just go for the highest bidder (Like I may have a choice!!!!:=)

Thanks very much.

Rgds

Paat

[Tandemrotor]

Paat

I'm sure I'm not telling you anything you don't already know, but a crucial factor in these considerations, is your age. I'm guessing you must be early to mid forties?

If you don't mind the time away from home (and perhaps after twenty years in the RAF you don't) then I think, having done both more than once, LH probably offers the better quality of life. This also enables you to live pretty well anywhere in the world that takes your fancy. However you will probably find yourself sitting in the RHS for a lengthy period, if you chose to join any of the majors.

If a command is important to you, I imagine you need to be looking at a SH operator. That could be schedule or charter (personal preference/ geographical location). If I were in your position, I would have little interest in what the various companies pay. The most important single factor is their 'Scheduling Agreement'.

This is how you will live your life, and how the company respect you. There are mature companies out there with good agreements, and there are some well known companies with virtually non existent systems.

Make the right choice first rather than at the second or third attempt. Forgive me for saying, but time is not on your side

You will be entering a totally different world. Enjoy.

[rubik101]

Try trawling through the search function, inserting all the names of all the airlines you might want to fly for.
Or simply scroll down to Airlines, Airports and Routes.
There you will get a flavour of the differing points of view.
You will learn that stable rosters, every night at home and good income with the LoCos are frowned upon by all those who work for airlines without all or any of the above. You will read that Long-Haul, days away and soon to be 3 or 4 star hotels are the absolute pinnacle of aviation life.
Having said that, you will also learn that differing points of view occur even within each airline.
So read all you can, you have time enough, and decide in a year or so. It is almost certain that some of the airlines you look at will no longer exist, so choices will be narrowed. The lean, mean airlines of today will almost certainly be the only ones to survive the coming downturn.
It may also be that there are many pilots out of work so maybe you might have to consider signing on 'till 55!
Good luck.

p.s. Deleted!

[fiftyfour]

I have served 20 years in the RAF and 20 years in 4 airlines.
I enjoyed the RAF but I don't regret leaving, as it is better for young people to be in the forces. I now get paid twice what I did before and do a job that is half as difficult. All you have to do is fly from A to B under well defined rules.
The work schedules are well defined, but the only things that are cast in stone are your 'Days Off.'
Forget having weekends or time off in the summer.
You have to make your own social life outside work.
The forces have quality, properly trained people all the way up from the guy that works in stores, to admin, to squadron boss to Air Marshal. Airlines just hire whoever is cheapest and available for a short course that started yesterday. And - management in general is pathetic. The senior people and the ethics in the industry are close to zero. The environment is soul-less.
Commercial airlines do not offer security of job, so be prepared to be moved or shafted in some other way at short notice.

I still enjoy the flying itself, but the company environment means you must not sell your soul to your work ,as one would (with justifiable pride) in the RAF.

Most airlines offer part-time (75% or 50%) work after a few years of service, which if you can afford it gives you certainty over time off and allows planning your life months ahead instead of just weeks ahead.

Take the plunge, enjoy the money and build your own life outside work.

[The Real Slim Shady]

Paat check your PMs.

[mr ripley]

OK ex C130 left almost 3 years ago now LH

In answer to your Qs

Work schedules
Seniority based and thus life will improve at the rate at which pilots are recruited onto you particular fleet. I can average one weekend off a month, can generally get the odd specific day off I want, and get to go to the places I want (if I'm not too ambitious) and avoid the places I don't want to go to. However can't achieve all that in one month as specific days off negates destination choices. Generally know schedule 6 weeks in advance and is pretty well fixed, however schedule bidding can be complex. I am very happy with the work schedule and as a scheduled operator there is no apreciable work change summer/winter.

Quality of management
On an individual basis SOME are good, generally the lower down the order. However it shares many similarities with the RAF management.

Enjoy the job
Yes

Lifestyle
Leave the car park, leave the job behind however if you want to get involved in what would be similar to secondary duties stuff you can, most don't. Managed to take the family with me on trips in good seats, which is more than I managed on the C130.

Fun factor
When its good its good, but it as always is not the place you are at but the people you are with. So not as consistant as the RAF but have had some top times.

Pay
Starting pay the same as RAF leaving pay. Pension though needs some thought and planning. MOD pension is a huge plus.

Good luck, PM if you need anymore.

[silverhawk]

Jet2

Plenty of your ilk as DEC and mostly very happy especially off the Herc

[deltahotel]

Agree with all the above. might even know you - C130 1986-91, QFI til 2000. 2 yrs Thomas Cook (JMC), now freight for big red n yellow bunch. Bottom line is you take the jobs that come up, but does no harm to have a preference. lot of mil guys like Netjets - fixed roster, good time to command, bit of variety. Charter - hard work esp in the summer - time to command is long due seniority system. BA LH and SH the same. Emirates good if you fancy the expat thing. Leave the job behind when you finish - good or bad depending on yr mindset. Don't expect a work based social life. Money better in the long term. My QoL squillions of percent better. feel free to PM, be completely shameless about using mates in airlines to yr advantage! Do be aware that aviation is a fickle thing - just starting to show in the industry now. Any economic downturn will affect it (credit, interest rates, redundancies, oil price rises, political uncertainty)- luxuries like holidays are one of the first things to go when times get hard.

Good luck - joining the RAF, staying in a bit longer, leaving the RAF are the 3 best decisions i made!!! DH

[Paat]

Hi Tandemrotor

Thanks for the reply. Having just turned 40 I've definately had enough of moving every 2 years etc etc, but I must admit that I'm slightly concerned over the idea of "last in first out" for any airline manning issues. But that's just a risk that has to be accepted I guess.

Command is not as important to me as quality of life. And it seems like 'Scheduling Agreement' is the key to quality of life in any airline job. I'm actually flying Virgin Atlantic to Antigua on holiday on Sat so will hopefully get chance to chat with the crew on there as well.

Thanks again for the reply.

Kind regards

Paat

[Paat]

Hi Rubik,

Thanks for the reply. I'm PA Spine so have assured service to 55 but not sure I can put up with moving every 2 years till then. I'll definately have a trawl through the forums as you suggest.

Thanks again

Paat.

[Paat]

Hi Fiftyfour,

Thanks for the reply. I've loved my time in the RAF and still do, especially since I got PA Spine a couple of years ago, just don't think I can put up with being moved round the country every 2 years till I'm 55.

That's some great advice and I hope in a year or two the airline situation may be a little more certain.

Thanks again.

Kind regards.

Paat

[Paat]

Hi,

Thanks for the reply. I was on K's 1991-2000 then Js till 2002. The more I hear the more I think the airlines are looking the way to go for QoL.

Thanks again for your reply.

Kind regards

Paat

[Paat]

Hi DH,

Thanks for the reply, that's just the sort of info I'm looking for. Not really that keen on leaving the mob but can't face another 15 years of moving every couple of years, so think the airlines are going to be the solution.

Kind regards

Paat

[non iron]

Hi, if you want planned time off, even a weekend, a pension plan, and a base in terms of a house for family and friends stay where you are. Would you really wish to become a traveller bereft of home ?
People with money didn`t get it by being nice.
Civil Aviation ain`t that civil.
No worries mate, you will of course find out for yourself in due course.

l wish you the best of luck.

Pete.

[Iver]

I would consider Netjets Europe if I were in your position for the reasons stated above. Good route variety, very nice airplanes, stable schedule, solid pay, plenty of rich people to keep the fleet going. Don't just consider the airlines like everyone else. But I would start networking now.

[XT668]

The senior people and the ethics in the industry are close to zero. The environment is soul-less.



Let's not forget the disgrace wrt Kintyre and the Chinook!

Otherwise I think you're getting generally 100% accurate advice. The LHS / RHS thing is more important than you may at first believe though, particularly if you are used to being an aircraft commander. I know several very unhappy previous FJ and Truckie mates who joined BA or the similar seniority-formal airlines; not all civil aviation captains are either civil or as well professionally qualified and able as you are. I have no problem believing it can get very tiresome.....hence the rationale to choose carefully.

[Dan Winterland]

Hi Paat. I think some of your PM replies ended up on this thread!

I did 17 years in the mob, then have since done 7 years in airlines. I have done scheduled passenger long haul, freight long haul and scheduled short haul in that time. And for me, the short haul gives me the best QoL. I work hard, but the rewards are good.

The passenger LH was OK at first as we did mostly ULH with only 3 trips a month, But them we started doing mostly east coast USA destinations, and six of those in a month is a killer! Freight is OK, but expect lots of being buggered around. The short haul is better for me- the main benefit is no jet lag. You will have suffered occaisional jet lag in the RAF (Oh, hang on. I seem to remember you said you few Hercs - scurvey was probably more of a problem! :)) but it's not like suffereing it constantly. Coping with Jet Lag is a young person's game. As you get older, like me you will probably find your circadian rythems get stronger and you won't get to sleep when your body says it's time to be awake.

But people are correct when they say it's the civilian world is less stable. I managed to get made redundant from my first airline before I had even left the RAF! (Joined three weeks before 9/11 which wasn't the best timing). however, once you get that important first type rating you more employable and the jobs will find you.

The main thing is to take advice, think carefully and then decide what is going to be best for you and your family. And avoid low cost operators. Low cost means low overheads. And as a pliot - you are an overhead!

[Wingswinger]

And avoid low cost operators. Low cost means low overheads. And as a pliot - you are an overhead!

That's all very well, Dan, but if Paat wants to stay in the UK and he isn't picked up by BA or Virgin where else is he to go these days. And if you think BA and Virgin managers don't regard their pilots as an inconvenient overhead, think again. At least in a LoCo his progression to command and perhaps Training Captain would be much quicker than anywhere else. Just my tuppence.

[Rainboe]

I know several very unhappy previous FJ and Truckie mates who joined BA or the similar seniority-formal airlines; not all civil aviation captains are either civil or as well professionally qualified and able as you are.
I would be careful that you remove such a mind set if you were to enter airline life. You will find your captains very highly experienced and probably equally or more 'qualified and able'. Maybe not as able to deliver ordnance, but it is important to have the right mind set when you join and start flying if you want a happy existence- arrogance is disliked by everyone. A new skill set must be developed with no 'I know better' attitudes, or 'when I was in the RAF, we did it.....'
I've flown airline since 71. Nobody cares what your background is- it is always how you interact and your attitudes. All that matters is working effectively as a team. I've flown with copilots who feel they are better 'qualified and able'. It doesn't work!

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

I am ex-RAF and feel a sense of caution as I read some of the replies. As one who does not always agree with Rainboe, I have to say that his is the most useful advice here, followed by that of Wingswinger. Many RAF guys have foolishly believed that they are better than their civilian counterparts. That is not my experience personally, and a handful of misguided and inappropriately arrogant ex-RAF pilots have done a great deal of damage to the reputation of Service pilots. A previous poster said that you are paid twice as much for a job that is half as difficult - I am afraid that attitude will lead you to serious problems in the airline world. My own experience is that, just like the RAF, most days are very routine but every now and then it all gets very tricky.

I think the best advice that you can get is to get rid of your white gloves, never ever talk about how much better it was in the RAF and be humble enough to learn from people who actually do know quite a lot about flying themselves. If you have that attitude you will have a great time. The final bit of advice I would give is not to write off low cost. The only people who do are those that do not work there. I love the low cost world - it is a great job with loads of variety and I get home most nights. Personally I would have hated to work for BA but I recognise that many people have really enjoyed it. I can only speak for easyJet but we are professional to the core and in the challenging times ahead you could do a whole lot worse. Best of luck.

[Count von Altibar]

Good post and good advice Rainboe. I've seen a few of these attitudes from ex-military guys down the years. On the other hand I've seen excellent ex-military people also. They're mainly the ones who have the ability to adapt to their new flying environment.

[Rainboe]

It's a funny thing, but the type of arrogance you can get from some service people is unique to that background. It is very unusual, but when it is there, it is awful. You may be a QFI on Hercs and done instruction on Hawks and flown with the Arrows and been an examiner....all very good, but there is a relatively new skill set to adapt to, and operational procedures to learn, none of which bear any similarity or have any hope of development or improvement from a service background. So it is well to enter a new way of life with respect for the peers and experience involved.

My own experience of looking the other way is that some of the worst handlers I have ever seen are former single seat fast jet pilots. Chucking a Harrier around solo does not create the discipline needed for precision instrument flying, or provide any of the skills and judgement needed for successful regular airline ops. Sitting there thinking the guy in the left seat is less qualified than you will lead to a bad flying experience- it will show.

[Ashling]

NSF and the 2 posts immediately above offer excellant advice.

I'm ex RAF, within the last 4 years and joined the orange empire. Personaly I really enjoy it. I work no more than 14/15 days a month and am home virtually every night so its great for family life. The pay is good and you do not have all the additional hassles that go with service life. Just pitch up do a good professional job and go home again. If you want more you can look to get invoved but there is no requirement to do so. My base is even pretty good socially and people help each other out. I moved to the left seat in 18 months and will have a shot at becoming a trainer in the next few years so progression is good too.

Like the others I would caution about any feelings of superiority you may have as they will be misplaced. I have met some very capable commercial chaps and chapesses who I have learnt, and continue to learn, a great deal from. As with most jobs its about working hard and having the right approach. If you do that you will really enjoy it and people will work hard to assist you in achieving your goals.

Good luck

[Artifical Horizon]

I think Rainboe overstates his case rather. The tone of his posts implies the only people with a bad attitude are those who come from a military background. Nonsense. There are good bad and indifferent from all walks of life. The most arrogant guy I have ever flown with was an all through commercial guy. As for the mindset for precision instrument flying. An ILS or a hold in an airliner is just the same as an ILS or a hold in a military aircraft. Mostly in an airliner you will do them with the autopilot coupled anyway. All experience is valuable. To say that flying a FJ would provide you with no skills or judgement that would prove useful in airliner is rubbish.

As for copilots who feel they are better qualified and able. A good captain in the LHS will recognise and foster the abilities of the person in the RHS. He should not assume that they are less qualified and able than himself.

Out of all the posts the most evident thing is that arrogance is a bad thing when you start a new job. Just like any new job when and if you join an airline you will have to prove that you are up to it and that you can fit in. An airline is a very different environment from the military. In fact in day to day terms airlines are way more efficient in the way they operate the ac. However, like the military they have SOPs and methods developed from experience to suit the requirements of the operation. Adapting to those is just being professional.

I have been in the military and in an airline. They are different and I have enjoyed both immensely. The second paragraph of NSFs post is spot on. Enjoy.

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:

One enters this thread with a degree of temerity because one has great respect for the words of Norman Stanley Fletcher and Rainboe, the words of whom need little in the way of further embellishment.
One has, in the past, flown with ex RAF, SAAF and Rhodesian Air Force pilots, in both seats and with pilots from both jet and transport forces' branches.
It would not be too appropriate to comment upon flying skills other than perhaps to say that in airline life an SOP does not, in the day to day operation of an aircraft, allow one as much flexibility as perhaps an air force pilot was accustomed.
The problems. although that might be too harsh a word, have always arisen with the interaction between the air force trained pilot and the civilian trained pilot in a two crew/CRM orientated operation. It does, in the never so humble, behove the air force pilot, upon entering civilian life, to make the effort to accomodate himself to that which he finds there. This is perhaps somewhat achieved by regarding the transition to civilian flying as a different learning curve, but of an upwards direction.
I think too that it is probably fair to say that there is sometimes some considerable bias to be found in civvie street towards air force personnel whose training might be perceived as having been effectively paid for by the chap sitting next to him who will quite likely be a dedicated pilot with a huge debt acquiredd from funding his own training. If this were the case, it would no doubt perhaps be especially galling in the case of an F/O sitting with a military DEC in the LHS, which of course, is where so many ex service pilots think they should be sitting; which in turn is apt to compound the problem when they find that they are not.:)

[winkle]

just a quick reply. I left the RAF a few years ago and tried my hand at a couple of civilian outfits. I was really impressed with the standards that i saw. However, it wasnt for me as i needed a dynamic environment to work in (did NJ - great fun!) so left and became self employed within the maritime world. It is very closley linked to aviation albeit slower but it still provides the challenges most of crave. My suggestion to you is open your eyes away from the cockpit - it is not the be all, and in fact you may just give yourself the the change you really need when leaving the Service. very best of luck - now get out of the cockpit and start living!

[Albert Another]

Good morning all,

I have been reading this thread with interest as I am in a similar position to PaaT, although a couple of years younger. I am due to leave the RAF next year after a rewarding 18 years but my priority now is to give my family some stability until the kids grow up.

Because of my leaving date I will probably have to buy a house (in the southwest) to get the kids in a school before I am ‘hopefully’ offered a job. How amenable are the airlines in accommodating basing requests?

Rgds

[bayete]

I made the jump last year (also Albert FI and CFS QFI). I was still enjoying the Mob but was time to find something new to do.
I spoke to a lot of of people from different types of jobs and went for Netjets, my reasons were that it looked like the kind of flying that would continue to be interesting for some time. Much like flying Albert, you have the whole package to deal with ie, fuel/pax/catering/perf/delays/bags etc, and all the time to different destinations, never knowing where you are going to start your next day or indeed end the one you are currently on. I find all this keeps it fresh. What you do know is that you will be back home on day 6 at your gateway before 23:59.
Pay is good.
Quick time to command.
The ability to live in around 42 cities in Europe, and make ad hoc changes so if you fancy 5 days in Barcelona you can and end your 'tour' there and meet the missus off her Ezy Flight. This allows you to take short European breaks and save your leave for the long haul destinations. (This summer so far hoildayed to Rome and Amsterdam flights on the company). I know of guys living in Chamony in the winter and on the Spanish coast in the summer.

Overall I am really enjoying it so far, all the pilots I have flown with have been great guys and gals, I am making social friends in the company with guys based out of my gateway. The crews seem to me to have a similar mentality to how we got on with life on the Albert fleet.

As for experience I have flown with guys who have less overall, but my attitude is that they are in the LHS and have more experience in this job than me, however we can all learn from each other and I find that this is the attitude of the guys I have flown with.

Sorry for the long winded reply, hope this helps, PM me if you want to discuss more.