Does anyone have bad things to say about the current crew swapping system

[Fireman in Red Bank]

I am frustrated by the time it takes to swap flights and make changes using the current system. Am I alone? :ugh: :rolleyes: :bored:

What can we do if we wanna the management to improve the system? :eek:
Do you know of any other problems the system has? :confused:

[rick.shaw]

Which airline??

[Fireman in Red Bank]

Hi there,

It's CX ~~

[bobrun]

If I remember correctly, when we agreed to the last RP, wasn't there something saying that the company would work on improving the swapping/roster search system. However it wasn't a requirement but only based on the company's good will. Haven't seen any changes happened.

[Fireman in Red Bank]

You are right on. I remember that too. What do you dislike about the swapping system?

Unless there are action plans in place, it would probably turn into an empty promise. Does anyone have good suggestions to gain commitments from CX to improve the swapping mechanism? Could the union do something? :(

[Fireman in Red Bank]

Hi there, not sure if you are making a joke to say even if we do have an union, they are not doing enough or if you are asking a straight question as to whether or not we get a union. If it is the latter, yes, CX does have an union. :ok:

[asianeagle]

Do we have one?

no, its an onion:{

cant do swaps anyway, not enough crew, therfore not enough recovery after flights which makes swapping just about impossible, unless its exactly the same duty period..
All my requests declined in last couple of months:ugh:

[Fireman in Red Bank]

outch~ That sucks. I know someone who actually spends a lot of time swapping and only some swaps got through. Other than the fact that there's enough crew for swapping, another issue is the system --- it takes sooooo many steps to even find and search for a potential person for swap.... that's frustrating. I always wonder if I am alone or if others have similar problems. ...

it is like hitting my head to the wall .... what a bumer! :ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[SAD]

FiRB Sounds like you first should join the union, after that maybe you can help them improve the system instead of complaining about it here.

[Fireman in Red Bank]

Does the union have a say on the system used by CX?

[Hellenic aviator]

Where to begin ?......

Reality is that the current system is NOT what Phil W. had said on a GMA posting i.e. that the system would automatically allow you to see whether the swap would be legal before initiating anything.

The biggest problem I find using the system is that it is subject to the Crew Controllers OPINION and NOT based on Vol 1 Flight time Limitations and our Contractual Agreement. Many times I have been declined a swap because of Crew Control opinion, and when I have asked them to explain to me what reference in Vol. 1 are they using (so I can understand as well), I am told, "This is how we do it, you WILL accept this". I have even taken matters up with Chris H, and to my surprise, when I showed him the reference I was reading in the Vol.1, he had agreed and overridden Crew Control's ruling.

The other problem is that whenever I have proven to the Crew Controller (politely and diplomatically) that they are not following the rules outlaid under Vol. 1, I get the 'run around' by their Supervisors. Again, with Chris H being involved, I have had the changes approved.

.....Perhaps the fact that there is a high turnover rate in Crew Control may contribute to this problem ? :ouch:

Regardless, if I am expected (per my CoS booklet) to comply with ALL Company policies and procedures, I too expect the Company to do the same - follow THEIR policies as well. Nowhere does it state in Vol.1 that Crew Control's opinion is the final ruling.

I think an improvement to the system would be to introduce a computer based system such as Bormann, which allows us to see real time what the Crew Control see and submit requests as we so choose. If there's no legality issue then there's NO REASON why the swap should be disapproved.

Also, another problem that I find is that Crew Control will disapproved swaps on reason that the rest between trips is too short should there be a delay in your first arrival. E.g. Min rest in HKG is 12 hours. If you have a trip that arrives at 1900 (scheduled) and you want to pick up a trip that begins at 0800, they're more than likely to disapprove it. The reason used is "possible arrival delay" of the first trip. I cannot find any reference to Vol.1 that this is legal, but they'll tell you "this is what we always do".

IMHO, I think the current system is a joke, but more importantly, the fact that CC does things based on their opinion instead of following the rules per Vol.1.

[Fireman in Red Bank]

Hi there,

Very good summary about the issues! :D
Thank you for raising the good questions. :ok:

Apparently, the reliability and transparency of the management's decision is at stakes. The extent to which they follow policies and procedures is another issue. I can understand and accept it when the management have to make "executive" decisions for approving or disapproving swapping application for emergency (e.g., earthquake), unexpected events (e.g., Oasis going out of business), safety, among other legitimate reasons. But it is a bad business practice if the approve or disapprove swaps using individual OPINIONS that are inconsistent, as you mentioned. Somehow the performance of CC does things should be evaluated and make transparent to crew.

Btw, which airlines use Borman for crew controlling? Does anyone know if Borman or other computer based system can accurately check and see if approvals and disapprovals are following the rules and guidelines?

How do other airlines handle things like this? Do they have a system that monitors the reliability of controllers' decisions over time?

Nice to know that you actually talked with Chris H. I saw his interviews with the media in various press releases. Seems like he would appreciate a better system that can make cabin and flight crew's life easier. This leads me to think perhaps Chris H. as well as the Union are good channels to make things happen. Yet given the "new" system that CX is already working on, it is hard to tell how receptive they are for requests from us ~~ :confused: Who would care about crew's hardship? :rolleyes: What is the latest about the "new" system?

[Fireman in Red Bank]

What type of swapping were you trying to accomplish? :eek:

Some flying patterns are harder to get. I think the company together with crew should do something to sort of "equalize" the "supply and demand" of swapping between hot and not-so-hot flying patterns so that more crew can get what they want. :D:);)

For instance, the company and crew, may wanna reward and recognize lenient crew who volunteer to trade with crew who got undesirable rosters. :)

A good computer based system with well thought out policy can be a great solution. :ok::ok::ok:

[Fireman in Red Bank]

#4 (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=4111196&postcount=4) bobrun (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=100679)

Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Earth
Posts: 77


If I remember correctly, when we agreed to the last RP, wasn't there something saying that the company would work on improving the swapping/roster search system. However it wasn't a requirement but only based on the company's good will. Haven't seen any changes happened.


Hi Bobrun,

Minding pointing me to find out where and when the company said they would work on improving the swapping / roster search system? I wanna follow up on this ~~ Thx. :)

[Mr. Bloggs]

FIRB, “Management reputation being at stake” one must care for their reputation first for it to be at stake.:ok:

Crew control disapprove swaps using their opinion but it is legal i.e. 14 hours rest between flights. When it suits crew control they are not concerned giving you 12 hours rest/reducing your physiological rest or asking you to reduce your rest to 10 hours in the hotel.:{

Think about it next time when crew control needs you to help out i.e. work on a G day for 2.5% or reduce your rest.:eek:

Management will not accept a computer-based system that gives the pilots more control over their roster. Computer based system will show transparency and that is definitely not what management want. Scheduling management will not be able to abuse the system to complete the schedule.:rolleyes:

A computer based system will most likely say “short of crew”, “cannot complete the scheduled task” due to crew shortage but we all know this is not true.:=

Crew control is known to change aircraft in crew direct and take you out of EFP but with no tech crew scheduled. At a later date, it is changed back to your original type but with a different crew and you are put on a 12-hour reserve. No EFP. Very transparent.:}

You will never have transparency here, Management will lose control and we all know about factory type management.:ouch:

Remember if management promise to work on something to entice you to sign a rostering practice agreement, it is a politician's promise.:*

Am I a pessimist? No, just an optimist with experience.:}

Computer based systems have been suggested many times in the past but never materialized, I wonder why?:rolleyes:

Write to the AOA rostering and if you are not a member write to the JRC. If you feel strongly about it, write to the Editor of crew news and he can ask management. Please supply your name so management will know whom to Cat B when the time comes.:oh:

By all means continue to make suggestions to management; their door is always open. Let me know how it goes.:{

[bobrun]

Fireman in Red Bank,

Refer to the AOA's update of 17 January 2007 which states the "improvements" offered under RP07. Under that headline, on page 2 of the document, you'll read "Mutual Exchanges of Duty will be improved by a more user-friendly Crew Direct interface".

I think the hiring of direct entry Captain like they are doing at the moment is a much more important issue. The many ways that the company uses to work around our contract is just shameful. I never imagined that they wouldn't even honor their name and signature on our contracts. And it is a pity that the AOA is so slow to react.