The lure of the "Singapore Girl" - another story from the anals of SIA

[storyman]

It wasn’t just me, we were all confused! Our indoctrination course as pilot newbies at SIA bought us into immediate contact with dozens of those elusive Singapore Girls; those voluptuous special jewels of rare beauty that were heavenly blessed with that mystical "something" that made passengers hypnotically choose to fly with Singapore Airlines. And there they all were walking around the training centre amongst us, the smile, that subservient downward glance that shyly looked up through the immaculate fringe with whispered the sweetest "good morning Captain".
But something was wrong, for out on the streets of Singapore they couldn’t be found. We know - we looked everywhere for them! None of the regular Singaporean girls ever said hello, they didn’t shyly look up at us – they glared, they didn’t have that immaculate dress sense or shampoo commercial hair style, and they definitely weren’t voluptuous coke bottle figures (flat city). So, where were they hiding?
Uniform day and time to make the pilgrimage to Orchard Road for the first fitting. We were joined by a group of Singapore Girl trainees going off to do the same thing so we ventured “would you like to join us for lunch afterwards” but, to our surprise, were told that their fitting would take all afternoon. “How come?”
Well, first of all their bodies had to be measured. This was followed by a pre-ordained “Singapore Girl” shape being allocated to them. With this winning number in hand they then went off to visit the fake shape shop where a carefully selected and finely moulded pair of fake breasts were consigned. With these in hand it was back to the tailors where the implants were expertly moulded into the uniform along with other fine touches. This pampering also included a trip down to the hairdresser where one of the four allowable hair designs was selected and applied.
Our hearts began to sink as we realised that the elusive “Singapore Girl” was as fake as the rest of the country: a finely managed charade.


[This message has been edited by storyman (edited 08 June 2000).]

[Random Electron]

Life's a bitch, isn't it?

[AeroBoero]

Oh gosh......I will have to look for another illusion now..... :rolleyes:

[This message has been edited by AeroBoero (edited 08 June 2000).]

[Whiskery]

Why is this topic NOT in Far East forum - WHERE IT BELONGS ????? It has nothing to do with Rumours and News and I can't find anything remotely relevant to aviation, with the exception of a vague and inaccurate appraisal of SQ's Flight Attendants.

Keep the Faith:]

P.S. Sorry about the edits. Another beer please SIERRA..........Ta!!

[This message has been edited by Whiskery (edited 08 June 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Whiskery (edited 08 June 2000).]

[titan]

Rumours and News

= The RUMOUR of the Singapore Girl being enchanted has been dispelled

= The story was NEWS to me

AND I find it an entertaining piece. Titan votes to keep it here.
Thankyou Storyman

[Whiskery]

I would have thought that nevan's topic would have been of more interest to you titan. Tell your mate Gladiator (I do know how close you two are) when you see him next,that I am still awaiting that "eyeball" popping experience he promised me many moons ago.

[jaco]

can't have everything man! just be happy you're flying for SIA. A lot of guys would walk on broken glass for what you have

[Kaptin M]

Can't say it hasn't been an extremely successful marketing commodity though, can you, storyman! Obviously, even you were sucked in.

Ever thought that maybe it was YOU they were avoiding, by spinning some fanciful tales [rather than politely telling you to "get lost"]?

[Captain Ed]

On US carriers, there is a pool of girls.

They line up, and a ring is dropped over their heads. If it stops at the bust, the girl goes to United. If it stops at the waist, American gets her. If the ring goes all the way down to the floor, they go to TWA.

Has anyone ever seen the original Formosan girls? They are flat out gorgeous. When Chang invaded the island to escape Mao, they became pretty much assimilated, but there are a few great specimens still aroung. The jealous mainland girls call them "aboriginies". Yeah, right.

They appear to be Eur-Asian.
:)

[This message has been edited by Captain Ed (edited 08 June 2000).]

[Mooney]

storyman,

I was given the pleasure of flying a lot on Singapore Airlines as a pax- the Cabin staff are a dream- their service and dedication to the passenger's is second to none.

Whether you like it or not by trying to spread horror stories about SIA- which are now 10 years old! The Crowds are being pulled onto SIA by it's unfailing outstanding service- that said for 5 year's i've only been critical of 1 cabin crew.

3 747-400s from LHR to SIN every day- First/Raffles/Business fully sold out- doesn't that say some thing?

SIA Girls- god bless them- they make flying for a passenger a delight.


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Support bacteria - they're the only culture some people have.

[Algol]

Storyman mate, you should know that most of the 'Singapore girls' are actually Malaysian.

If you want to find cute girls go to KL.

[titan]

Hey Mooney, Storyman never said when it happened. How do you know it was 10 years ago? Sounds to me like you are a little more than a passenger eh lah!!!

[Goldwing2000]

Wow Mooney,chill out! Just because your perception of the 'Singapore girl' has all but evaporated,think about the rest of us thats been flying SQ all these years. As asian girls are fairly petite I'm really not surprised.
Algol-you'er right.Got to change the ad to 'Malaysian girl' as on the whole there ain't too many Singapore girls.
Keep them rolling in Storyman.

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I don't suffer from insanity.I enjoy every minute of it.

[Slasher]

During my time at the Stalag, Singapore girls were not interested in foreign scum unless:

* You were single

* Lived in a condo at Bayshore

* Had plenty of money

* Had a car

* Intended to marry so she could -

- Fly First class with SIA

- Get her the hell out of Singapore

The SPGs down at Branigans were much more sincere.

[BigJETS]

Sounds like a beer commercial.

[Mooney]

titan,

I've read all the other "Storys"- most are around the B743 days.


Goldwing2000,

Just stating what I see from SIA.



------------------
Support bacteria - they're the only culture some people have.

[Gladiator]

Mooney what you do not know is that beneath the smile of the Singapore girl is agony, pain, fear, and tortuous working conditions.

Hence, mass resignations weekly.

There are no happy cabin crew at SIA. Why do it?

No choice lah, what to do.

[Gladiator]

Whiskery if the Singapore Girl has the right to be in the world's famous wax museum, then it has the right to be in Rumours & News.

I would like to add to the story of the Singapore Girl. The interview for the Singapore Girl starts at the swimming pool at the SIA training center.

They have to show up in swim costumes. OK you, you, you, you, stay, the rest of you thank you for coming.

Try that here mate, there will be legal action up the yeng yang.

[SLF3]

I first flew with Singapore Airlines in 1981. On arriving in KL I discussed with my Chinese hosts the allure of the Singapore girls and suggested they wore 'falsies'. The response was 'everyone knows that'. Reading this thread (and the one on Singapore Airlines contracts) leads a humble passenger to suggest that:
- Asians are smarter than Caucasians
- Some pilots are very gullible
- Some passengers are smarter and less gullible than some pilots
I can think of airlines whose staff I prefer to those of SQ, but I cannot think of an airline with consistently better in-flight sevice: but then I don't judge service by breast measurement.

[Whiskery]

Are you for real Gladiator or are you just fooling around?

The Cabin Crew union in SIA was the most envied of all the unions in the airline. Do you recall the "crew rooms" at certain hotels we stayed at - did you think maybe ALPA-S secured those for us? WRONG, the cabin crew did. I never once stayed at a hotel with cabin crew, that breakfast wasn't included. Stayed at a few though with just the tech. crew where we were told by reception that breakfast wasn't included anymore because SIA were getting a cheaper room rate!

Mass resignations weekly! Gladys , WHAT HAVE you been smoking? The Singapore Girl is one of the most sought after jobs in Singapore. $2300 per month, plus meal allowance,discount travel,bonus AND (very important Lah) S T A T U S. Where the average wage (locals) is still only $900 per month, it is a much better proposition than working in Dad's hawker stall.

The final insult,....."beneath the smile of the Singapore girl is agony,pain,fear and tortuous working conditions". My eyeballs may have popped after reading that burst but for the fact that I was laughing so much,my tear ducts formed a vacuum and held them in!
I noted THAT agony and pain on those three day Male trips. Maybe it was the scuba diving that caused it or the tennis. The night parties drinking all SIA's Dom and Tiger beer were pretty "tortuous" I must admit Gladys.

I don't know if you actually met any girls when you were in Singapore, but the few I met were more than happy in the employ of SQ and so were all of their friends.

Last question Gladiator - how come you were privy to the Flight Attendant interviews at the pool???

Keep the Faith:]

[Truth Seekers Int'nl]

Are you feeling a little pressure in the genitalia area Gladiator?

[titan]

well roll me over and tickle me senseless SLF3 ! Seems like maybe some of those really smart Chinese passengers ought to come up the front and fly the plane.
The funny thing SLF3 is that I dont judge an airline by its cabin service, for just like the charade of the "Singapore Girl" is the charade of the safety of SIA.
May fools rush in..................

[Gladiator]

Whiskery I do not know wheather you are a local Singaporean or not. I put money down that you are.

May be the Singapore girls tell the 'angmo' things they do not want to tell you because of the 'KGB' factor.

To answer your question, yes I met a lot of girls in Singapore, more than you have had fish balls (ask Kenny Naboo). In fact I live with a Singapore girl, I would say that makes me a reliable source of information. What is your angle. They are probably scared to death by the mention of your name or rank or both.

In fact I do not think I ever met a cabin crew that had any respect for SIA. If you are for real, then you are well aware of mass resignations. 15 years ago the job of a Singapore Girl was a good job, today it is not. Hence, girls from India, Indonesia, etc.

Furthermore if you are for real you would have seen the swim costume parade while doing SEP.

I do not understand what crew room or breakfast has to do with this.

[Kaptin M]

Well Gladdy, you just did your dough, I can assure you that Whiskery is not a Singaporean, however the fact that you live with a Singapore girl, doesn't mean that you are privvy to anything other than her interpretation of events. On the other hand, Whiskery's contacts were many, and varied, allowing his more rounded, objective, and less biased opinions.

The point re the crew rooms, and breakfasts, was to indicate the importance SIA places on its "front line" [as far as public exposure] people, and the power the cabin crew union carries. How many times do F/O's get a suite on overnights? The IFS gets generally always gets one, when they don't stay in the same pubs as the tech crew.


Titan, I guess, you do considerable research by way of individual pilot interviews at each carrier, before you fly as a pax....because most of the scare-mail posted here, is hearsay only and not released for public consumption.

EVERY airline has its daily/weekly/monthly "events", knowlege of which is often restricted to only those involved.

Titan and Gladdy, have a look at other airlines....SQ must have been doing something right for a long time now, to have achieved the prominent position they're in. Take a liberal dose of liver salts, and try to smile a litle more often.

[Gladiator]

Kaptain M I assure you my view does not come from one Singapore girl.

I further assure you that the majority of cabin crew at SQ including a large number of tech crew also agree with me.

I also further assure you that I have a bigger smile on my face than you could possibly imagine (Titan can speak for himself). The SQ saga has provided me with great satisfaction in the way of a large accomplishment. On the financial side it has yielded me a large profit by the way of a book. Trust me I am a very very happy man.

As for the success of the airline, I do not disagree with it's world class status for passenger service. But the success is based on intimidation, fear and anxiety.

Why don't you talk to some of them sometime. Make sure you are careful what you ask, how you ask or where you ask because of the KGB factor.

Only those who have walked the walk can talk the talk.

[Damsel]

Well go and walk the walk somewhere else and talk away to your comrades by email then!
This subject has been done to death, over and over and over again!
You will only ever put forward your views (over and over again) and you continually refuse to accept that anyone could possibly enjoy working for SQ and residing in SIN.
Go and enjoy your wondrous new life and let go of the past!!!
You obviously cannot handle rejection!

[MasterGreen]

Well said Damsel...

[Gladiator]

Damsel why don't you let go of the mouse when it comes to SIA subjects.

Accept the reality that we are here to stay forever. It is my duty to provide information. Yes 'information', the ultimate enemy of the 'rock'. A lot of people want to hear what we have to say.

If Dick, Tom and Harry are happy in Singapore good for them. I have and will continue to save a few from falling into the black hole.

Once again Damsel when you see words like SIA, SQ, Gladiator, etc, that would be your signal not to click.

[Damsel]

How heroic of you!
Ok then - there are the rest of us that are saying the opposite!!!!!!!!!

[Seaman Staines]

Gladys,
you are just like Mr Lee, you hate anyone to criticise your drivel.
Note: I am no fan of the SIN gov't.

[faheel]

Gladiator or should I call you Freeman?
I think you have at least got one statement right which YOU should follow.
The bit in the reply to Damsel about not clicking the mouse when it comes to SIA
follow your advice and go and enjoy your life!
Ps in your breakdown on salary etc you forgot to factor in the yearly bonus.
I believe all those poor fools working for SIA were given 4.1 months salary as a bonus this year!

[Kaptin M]

Gladdy, I walked the walk with SQ, for more than 5 1/2 years, and still maintain regular contact with many of my friends [expats] who have been there 10, 15 and 20 years. I'm pleased to say that malcontents, and moaners - such as yourself - were by far and away in the minority.

IF there is any intimidation in the cabin crew ranks, it's generally from within, and as far as tech crew are concerned, the couple of local Captains who "indulge" in bullying, are well known by all....but you get these types in EVERY airline.

You need to gain some experience in life, by working for other companies, Glad and storyman, it would be beneficial for both of you.

[Gladiator]

Kaptan M let us make this discussion rational and based on facts and numbers. Fare enough that you walked the walk for 5.5 years. May I ask if you walked as a Captain, first officer, second officer, which contract, do you have children Kaptan M. A few simple questions if you do not mind.

Yes I do remember a few happy ones coming from ravaged countries and or countries with worthless currency (no offence to the brothers from SUD A.),or the good number from BA which are forced to retire at 55.

But what happened to the large number of expats on local terms. Were they all a** hol** like you assume me to be. Were the majority maladjusted, couldn't cut the mustard. I don't think so.

Faheel I am not complaining about SQ threads so I will continue my mission and click and click and click. Anyone that finds it boring then what are you doing here reading it in the first place. If you were not interested you would not have clicked on it to begin with. May be you should look deep within yourself and discover that you really want me here, you need me here.

4.1 months bonus, excellent, 2 years ago 22% pay cut, now 4.1 months bonus, what is the big deal.

Happiness is a mission worthwhile.

[Goldwing2000]

Gladiator
Keep talking the talk and walking the walk.I have quite a number of friends at SQ and eventhough some are happy,others aren't quite as enamoured with life as they thought they would be.What is the rationale behind the mass resignation of a few years ago to MAS if everything was hunky dory?Afterall they were flying good routes and their salaries were paid in the almighty Singapore dollar which was twice the Malaysian ringgit but they still chose to leave. Life would be an incredibly boring place if everyone agreed with everyone else and if those that chose to ignore the fact that there is always two sides to a coin then they are as ignorant and dumb as they make out to be.Keep clicking away and let us the public decide!

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I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy every minute of it.

[Gladiator]

Goldwing2000 I am not sure what you are trying to say. The mass resignations to MAS were I think due to command bypass at SQ. The pilots were offered command at MAS within 6 months or so, furthermore they were Malaysians.

Everybody has a different reason. May be For those pilots command was more important than Singapore dollar. Ringgit is less but so is the cost of living.

May be they got shafted by MAS also. But there is bad blood within Singaporeans and Malaysians when it comes to the subject of command, giving up Malaysian citizenship and taking on Singaporean citizenship.

[Seaman Staines]

May be you should look deep within yourself and discover that you really want me here, you need me here.

You are one sickpuppy.

[titan]

Dear Seaman - a name like that and YOU are calling Gladiator sick. I cant help wandering what you get up to for kicks.

Gladiator is correct. If there was no one with a differing opinion then we would all be living in a dictatorship i.e. SINGAPORE. Do you get the drift yet? Freedom has a price. If only you could have heard the utter dribble that LKW junior was spilling down in Australia last week then maybe you would understand. There is a reason that Singapore has never been able to push its presence on the world, why it has been built on the back of 500 multi-national foreign companies; it is because no Singaporean is permitted a differing opinion; think out of the box and you get cut down.
Take the money away and all you have is a quasi-African style backwater. Money is not the measure of quality.
I look forward to you eruditious response.
Goodluck

[This message has been edited by titan (edited 12 June 2000).]

[Goldwing2000]

Gladiator
You are partly right about the mass resignation to MAS but some had enough of living in a false country.For your information not all that left had command within the promised 6 months (some had to wait 2 yrs) whereas their mates at SQ had command within 9 mths or so.
The subject of change of nationality is one of immense contention amongst Malaysians understandably and the only bad blood exists with the Singaporeans as they have this holier than thou attitude.
As for MAS well,they'er doing their part in royally shafting all their pilots,but that's another story.

------------
Remember this,wherever you go,there you are.

[Gladiator]

Yes Goldwing2000 MAS shafts a few, SIA shafts a few. A bit of shaft here a bit of shaft there. I guess it is better to shaft than get shafted.

[Seaman Staines]

Dear Tits,

There is nothing wrong with my name!!!
I'm deeply offended by your remarks :)

I'm sick, sick of reading the same drivel from you and Gladys. Can't you two tarts come up with something new about SIN City?

I agree,

Singapore Sucks!

[titan]

Seaman, thankyou for your intelligent reply.

[Gladiator]

Seaman I just do not understand the likes of you and Damsel. If the subject sickens you for heavens sake do not click on it.

As I mentioned to faheel before down deep inside you want Titan and Gladiator here. You want us here you need us here, otherwise why are you clicking here.

[Damsel]

Gladiator, YOU tell yourself you are wanted.
Ok so some of your more ardent followers implore you for more information, well there are so many of us here that don't want it!! (and believe me when I say - many!)
But it is a free world!
We all know about your SQ employment 'woes'.
Tell you what Gladiator, I will go away when you go away!!

[Kaptin M]

Glad, the title of this topic that has brought about your particular spleen venting of SIA, is 'The lure of the "Singapore Girl"....".

Exactly how my position in SQ [be it S/O, F/O, or Capt] would color my impression of the concept of Singapore Airlines' is beyond me. Your intention, plainly, is to try to dis-credit Singapore, and all things associated with that country, and, particularly, Singapore Airlines, because they had the misfortune to engage you.

Let me try to present to you, how the majority of others to whom you expound your diatribe, view you.

You accepted, by signing with your own hand, a WRITTEN contract with SQ. This contract would have been in your possession for some [perhaps considerable] time, prior to returning it to SIA.

You CLAIM that you were given verbal incentives, that were not fulfilled.

You then completed training [without outlaying one single, solitary cent to offset the cost], having agreed to the value, beforehand.

You then continued in the employ of Singapore Airlines, as a salaried pilot, but as your experience [hours] increased, you considered yourself to be worth far more than the salary [to which you had previous insight] being paid to you, and those in your category.

You became envious of the salaries being paid to the local, and ex-pat Captains, and thought how "unfair" it was, that you couldn't afford to live in similar accomodation, drive similar vehicles, and save to the same extent....

...."It was ALL Singapore's fault", because YOU couldn't cut you cloth to measure.

And so you grumbled, whinged, and moaned to others...because YOU didn't think it was fair, that YOU should have to wait [about] 7 years to get your shot at a Command, especially now that the employment prospects were much better at home, thanks to the experience with SIA.

So "diddums" would now put forward the "big, brave, 'I TOOK ON SINGAPORE AIRLINES' act", and DELIBERATELY break your bond ["but, SQ don't touch poor, inexperienced me, you big bullies!"].

Yes mate, YOU are not worthy of your word. You had no justifiable reason for breaking your bond, and so we must now categorize you into one of the following:

[1] Extremely naive, inasmuch as you signed a bond without bothering to read it;

[2] Naive, because you didn't fully research whether you would be able to reside in Singapore, at your expected level;

[3] A Failure, because you couldn't discipline yourself to live within your means;

[4] A Fraud [I won't use the terms, cheat or liar], because you knowingly signed a contract that you NEVER intended to fulfil.

Take your choice. That's also how prospective employers will view you, when they ask who your previous work was with.

I'm afraid I've spent too much time on you, and your droolings, Glad, but you NEEDED that!

[hounddog high]

Gladiator,

For your short "walk" in SIN, do not qualify you to "talk" so big as to condemn the whole nation or SQ.

I am sure you are a well read person. I am sure you've read a lot of good and bad stuff about SQ and SIN. It appears that you choose to like the bad stuff and ignore the good ones for you own believes and paradigm. I sympathies with you living in a tunnel of hate and agony. Hope the "victory" you managed recently will find you some peace.


The esteemed AWST magazine's Laurel Legends, included two ex-Chairman of SIA, namely Mr Lim Chin Beng and Mr Pillay. That is one but not the least of the many recognitions for SIA achievements. I wonder what you'd say about the magazine.

LKY cannot possibly please everyone. Do you know what were the conditions were like in the 60s through 70s in SIN? While the west was happy with the hippy peace and love mood, most of us here in SIN do not even have electric lights at home, making do with pressure lamps running on kerosene. Kids making nature calls by the side of the drain or some so called toilet where the nightsoil are collected daily in buckets. Attap huts or zinc-roofed houses. We have come a long way from then I think.

LKY might have pissed some off, but overall he did good for SIN. Why would the USA esteemed leaders invite LKY to US to honour him specifically, sometime back? Why would USA grant SIN citizens the priviledge among the few, to travel to USA without the need for visa as tourist. There are plenty good stories about SQ and SIN but you choose ridicule them or sidestep the issue to suit your own believes. These are but some positive sides just to mention a few. Like some mentioned above, there are always two sides of the coin. Take it easy lah mat!

Do not be flattened by one side of the coin. :)

[Seaman Staines]

Dear Tits,

Thank you,
I figured I'd better make it easy for you to understand. :)

BTW, Where's your mate, 'Judas' Skeltor, has he been banned from pprune?

[bobajob61]

LKY did a great job to bring Singapore into the modern era. He has now been recognised as a truly strong leader. However in the same way that a dominant father has to let his daughter go to a night club or maybe stay up late on a weekend at some stage, he or Goh has to allow the citizens of Singapore the freedom to grow up in their own way.

Yes regularly the family must come together to find out how things are going and to make comments (both ways) but if economic progress is truly what the leaders of the Lion City want then they should look to a more laissez faire attitude to encourage the citizens to grow themselves. Singaporeans will not forget that without LKY they would be living 25 years in the past from a standard of living point of view but in the long run they will not forgive a father who will not allow them to grow out of adolescence and into maturity.

Similarly SIA must realise the contribution made by foreigners to the airline and not persecute those who whilst wanting to further their own careers are also (by proxy) furthering the Singaporean dream.

[hounddog high]

bob,

well put. I'm optimistic the father would let go slowly but surely. With the advent of internet, no one can hide. Signs of loosening up and holistic approach seems to be happening.

[Gladiator]

Kaptin M you are way off in your assessment. Your assessment is based on assumption, i.e. your worth, command, etc. What makes you think those actually apply in this case?

Since you are free to voice your opinion so be it.

For the rest we are now moving towards the politics of Singapore. Has LKY done a good job cleaning up a dirty place? Yes. Is he ruling the country like a prison? Yes. So it is a very clean prison with the only motive being profit over morals.

If you want to get into the politics of Singapore please start another thread.

[Whiskery]

Congratulations Kaptin M - when Gladiator changes the subject, that usually means capitulation!

[titan]

Kaptin M:
- my training was not "free". You can not live on $12,000pa in Singapore(unless you are a slave on a Singaporean building site). My first year with SIA COST me $35,000.

- the most basic premise of contract law is "consensus ad idem" meaning a meeting of minds where the contract is entered into by equal parties.

- "that we considered ourselves worth more than the salary". Wrong. That we deserved a better quality of life - Right. My net income since leaving SIA has fallen by 300%. Not only am I better off financially, being able to afford a house, car, boat and numerous toys; but I am happy. Happiness is not measured in dollars.

- Singapore Airlines misrepresented itself, possibly fraudulently, through inducement (Misrepresentation Act of 1967). If SIA was as clean skinned and perfect as you infer, then why has the FAA and NTSB been actively supporting Gladiator's case?

- Of the almost 50 foreign nationals that have left, they have ALL left before the expiry of their contract and have ALL been employed by other airlines. SIA doesn't mean very much on a resume in the world aviation community (my condolensces to the Singaporean SIA pilots who dream of a better life)

- Most of us left SIA due to the word that LKW has forbidden to be used - racism. The authority structure within SIA and Singapore is Chinese-Malay-Indian-Foreigners-maids. The Chinese are desperate to maintain power in Singapore but the Malays and Indians are breeding faster(note the government's love commercials that only depict chinese actors). Singapore is heading towards a Fijian crisis, except that it was never a Chinese country to begin with. The tension is everywhere in daily life. The foreigners see it clearer than locals, or at least are brave enough to talk about it. We left because we were treated with hostility; you do not have to speak Mandarin on the flightdeck to know the derogatory nature of what is being said.

- Fraud? We ALL went to SIA believing that it would be our life's career, that SIA would act with the same measure of care and safety as the world's other large airlines (we missed the warning of the bond - the well known airlines don't have them); why else would you sign such a document unless you meant to stay??

Kaptin M - do you spend more time in the ALPA-S office or on the fourth floor?

[This message has been edited by titan (edited 14 June 2000).]

[titan]

hounddog high:

- SINGAPORE is the tunnel of hate and agony. Why else would they bond male students for educating overseas at the higher of $70,000 or 5 years household income? Why don't they have democracy? Why dont they repeal the Detention Without Cause law? Why don't they sign the UN Human Rights Treaty? Why don't they sign the Geneva Convention? Why don't they have Welfare? Why do they allow so much crime to be settled for money between the concerned parties without police intervention. Why do they advertise for policemen with an advert of you looking into the barrel of a gun with the caption :"get respect - join the police force"
why....why.......why......

- "AWST"? Is that the Asian Wall Street Journal? The magazine that was banned from Singapore and now only has limited circulation? and TIME Magazine, it wasn't banned but just limited to a circulation of 500 copies. It makes Speaker's Corner a joke.

- "Hippy peace and love" was about human rights and respect for you fellow human being. Ironic that you should criticise it. I grew up in the 60s in an Australian capital city with a man that collected the nightsoil by horse and cart. Its not really a sign of poverty.....and I still have a zinc roofed house.

- Did the USA possibly woo LKW because they were looking for a home after Subic Bay. Just because they talk to you doesnt mean they like or approve of you. The need to not have visas is simple; the Police State of Singapore ensures that any Singaporean that slips up in the USA will be swiftly found and "retrained".

[Gladiator]

A lot of heavy duty sentences Titan. A little over my head but sounds good anyway.

You want to know what fraud is? Singapore Airlines is a bootleg operation.

My contract stated that I was to be employed as a first officer. Fraud is when I was utilized as Captain (Pilot-in-command)relief without a license or training for that capacity. (More on this in legal documents).

When the FAA asked Ken T. of CAAS to explain two pilots holding only a commercial Pilot license (many without the ATPL written exams)behind the controls of a B747-400, he replied,

"all the expats on local term first officers held ATPL from their respective countries, so we accept their licenses as ATPL". (Liar, liar).

Fraud is, when Ken T. continued to make a fool out of himself and say, "but we issue them a CPL."

I presume so SIA can save US $180 per month on the salary of that pilot.

Fraud is when Ken T. in front of the FAA refused to provide a public copy of a CAAS document on the subject of first officers and mandatory ATPL on two-man aircraft.

Fraud is when SIA stuck their sandals in their mouth with their FAM (Flight Administration Manual).

I can go on and on and still not be finished in 30 days.

Attention all SIA B747-400 and A-340 first officers with CPL and no ATPL written exams,

YOU ARE ILLEGAL PER THE SINGAPORE ANO (AIR NAVIGATION ORDER) AND ICAO MINIMUM SAFETY STANDARDS FOR INTERNATIONAL COMMERCIAL OPERATIONS.

IF YOU FALL IN THIS CATEGORY YOU ARE BOOTLEG PILOT.

But you have great cabin service.

[Kaptin M]

Titan, you are one confused young man.

Is it any wonder that you have landed yourself in such deep water, at your stage in life!

If your training was not free, how much did you contribute towards it? Now don't get confused between personal living expenses, and training costs...if you undertake [for example] a University course, you will be pay the cost of tuition. At no time can your educators, or employers, be held responsible for expenses of a personal nature, incurred by you, unless it so states in an agreement between the two of you. Please advise us all, on what the $35k was expended.

If the contract OFFERED to you, by SIA, was beyond your comprehension, the onus was on you to either [1]state this to SQ, and request clarification/interpretation, or [2]obtain professional legal advice, before putting your hand to the document.


Well, I think that everybody believes that he deserves a better quality of life, and most strive to attain those ideals. In the meantime however, we must all learn to live within our current means, as meagre as they may appear [relative to those around us].

You indicate that your salary has dropped by some 300%, and although you don't measure happiness in dollars, obviously material objects are your yardstick of "success" [you DID adopt some of those Singaporean traits, you despise so much, didn't you]...."house, car, boat, numerous toys". So the question begs an answer, are your expendable finances now supplemented by another source, eg. parents, wife, relations, bank/building society/finance company loan(s), that have allowed you this degree of 'affluence'?

Of the 50 odd expats who left SQ, and achieved subsequent employment with other Airlines, the reason they were ABLE to gain their positions, was BECAUSE of the experience gained in Singapore Airlines. Don't fool yourself [and make a fool of yourself] by stating that "SIA doesn't mean very much on a resume...". Certainly, a Singapore ATPL is not a great asset, but the experience gained in SQ - a major world player - is undoubtedly invaluable.

Racism in Singapore...yes, I agree [you didn't mention the numbering system used for classification of races, which surprises me...] does exist, but no more than in almost all the rest of Asia, the Middle East, and the good ol' US of A, where the indigenous population is given incentives not available to the others. I don't agree with it [and was irked to read a sign in a shop window in Singapore 'Wanted - 18 year old, female shop assitant. Must be Chinese'].
But, my friend, that is their country, [and as you no doubt heard time and again] it's their train set, and to live and work there, it is something of which we need to be mindful. You don't see something "clearer than the locals", you interpret it a different way, because your cultural thinking is different to theirs. There won't be any Fijian type crisis, because it just won't be allowed to happen.

It is more than a little incredulous, to say that you missed the warning of the bond, when it is, clearly, a pre-requisite to obtain a 'bank guarantee' [or provide the amount in cash]...no small matter, that can be easily overlooked.

Why else would you sign such a document, you ask....to enhance your experience, both type, and time-wise, because the experience and qualifications you held pre SIA were insufficient to get you anything better. Had they been, you would not have gotten yourselves into this predicament.

Actually, it seems to be more and more on the 2nd floor these days, Titan. :)

[hounddog high]

titan,

you quoted rightly "AWST", but you prefer to use AWSJ to support your case. btw it is the US based Aviation Week and Space Technology magazine I am talking about. Issue dated April 10, 2000. Mr Lim and Mr Pillay were honoured in the Laureates Hall of Fame some time back and now the Legends plaque and a listing of the members is on display at the Smithsonian Institution's National Air & Space Museum in Washington. Disappointed that a professional pilot like you did not pick it up or heard of it. What will you think of next?

As for all your WHYs, you will never understanding them and i guess, will not want to, because you are not a local and you don't give a s--t.

Just because SQ and SIN did not please the 50 odd guys, they are damned. Why did you guys come to this part of the world in the first place?

you lost me on the issue of no visa requirement visiting USA for Singaporeans. it has got nothing to do with the SIN police but the recognition we've got from the US gov to be given such privilege.

Human rights? plenty to debate on. look at your own backyard! you guys think you have the universal solution? good luck. :rolleyes:

[This message has been edited by hounddog high (edited 14 June 2000).]

[titan]

quote from storyman:


Things that peeve me :
·Lee Kwan Yew is an honest man
·Singapore owes its success to Lee Kwan Yew’s iron fist style of rule
·LKY and only LKY is responsible for Singapore’s success
·Prime Minister Goh’s salary and his attitude that such restitution is the only way to attract the calibre of people suitable for such a job
·The way that Singapore panders to China’s spoilt child antics
·The way that Singaporians pretend there is racial harmony in their tropical paradise
·The exorbitant cost of cars and the more than one billion dollars that the government has made from car registration plates
·How the rich keep getting richer and the poor get poorer
·How there is 3% inflation per year when land prices go up by 60% and COEs by the same
·How only Singaporeans can own landed property yet take it as their right to buy up Australian land and then sneer at Australians for letting them
·How most Singaporean wealth is based on the rapidly rising property prices rather than actual value added production
·That most Singaporeans can’t see that their wealth is based on a forced savings rate 10 to 30 times greater than other developed economies
·That their economic success is largely dependent on this forced saving and the lack of welfare payments to the community which account for 30-40% of total government expenditure in developed economies
·That Singapore owes its success to its British past which left behind a developed and workable system of law, order and government infrastructure
·The way that Singaporeans are so insular in everything they do
·The way that Singaporeans lack a constant awareness of their surroundings and environment which is born out in their high motor vehicle accident rate
·Their inability to use an indicator when changing lanes
·Their habit of pulling straight out in front of on coming traffic and then believing that everything will be okay if they simply don’t look at the vehicle taking the avoiding action
·The way that the Indians pull out in front of anyone with a less expensive car than their own
·How riding a bicycle is so dangerous in Singapore not just because the drivers don’t look but also because when they do they won’t accept your right to passage
·How white lines on the road have no other purpose than to look interesting
·How most Singaporeans can’t ride a bike
·How most Singaporeans can’t swim
·How all unmarried Singaporeans can’t cook
·How all Singaporeans walk on the bicycle track without any comprehension of the possible consequences
·How the government forces families to fork out a minimum $70 000 or one years salary, which ever is more, as a surety when male students study overseas to ensure that they return
·How Singapore continues to be built on the exploitation of foreign workers who work 12 hours a day for $25
·The atrocious living conditions that foreign labourers are forced to live in
·The high crime rate that all who live in Singapore know exists but which the government refuses to admit to
·The high level corruption that everyone knows is present but nobody can talk about
·The way that the only green areas in Singapore are the parts that the tourists see
·The exorbitant cost of golf club membership
·The lack of recreation for the common man
·How everything in Singapore costs money
·How the new Super-buses that are to take Singapore into the next century are now coming out without air-conditioning
·How everyone is so paranoid about security when they are suppose to live in one of the world’s safest countries
·How every day the government, by way of the newspaper, indulges in America bashing
·How if Singapore’s security is ever threatened America will be the first country they squeal out to for help
·How Singaporeans truly believe that the world actually revolves around them and their indignation when people say they don’t even know where the country is
·How their airforce pilots find it reassuring to make as much noise as possible when flying over the island
·How in this day of satellite imagery their airports don’t appear in road directories or on maps
·The inability of the entire population to think laterally. Square blocks in square holes only.

[Kaptin M]

..and lastly,

How Singapore was unable to adapt to me, the epitome of perfection!.

[Slasher]

Titan as an expat(?) the mistake your making is being concerned about the host country.

The Nam is a horrible and backward !!!!!hole run by pr*cks and Ill be bloody glad to leave it one day. But you dont see me writing posts about how the place sucks. As an expat Im paid to do the job - not worry about the host countrys injustices or crap.

[Kaptin M]

Concise, and to the point [as usual, Slasher].

Slasher speaks for a lot of expats, Titan and Glad, and the inference is that he [and the rest] will fulfil the contracts to which they committed themselves.

In the end, that's what it ALL comes down to.

You guys would have earned far more respect, by admitting that you - yes, YOU - over estimated your tenacity, at the outset, to live in the foreign conditions for the required length of time. Almost all of us can identify with that, as we all went through it.

[titan]

the thread turned into a "why did you leave then? you just used SIA" type of thread. The reasons we all left are many. I think Storyman helped in grasping just what a strange plce Singapore is. By understanding the parents you understand the child. SIA had no hope of ever being normal; it will scream and act like a spoilt child, getting what ever it wants, until the day it has to venture out into the real world.
I believe Gladiator was the first to shut the spoilt brat up. Nothing like a good black eye to level the bully.

[Damsel]

Your contracts were for the RHS for SQ, not to change the system.
As an expat you are there for the life of the contract.
We have always found life as expats to be varied and interesting, obviously you, dear Gladiator,Titan et al found life away from home too much to handle!
Tolerance helps - also maturity.
ps this will probably be the only time I will ever agree with you Slasher and you Kaptin M !

[This message has been edited by Damsel (edited 15 June 2000).]

[titan]

Damsel was obviously on expat terms. Please note that Gladiator and myself were on foreign national terms, chained by an 8-9 year, $320,000 bond.

[Kaptin M]

Of which you were fully aware, before you went to the interview, received and read the contract, discussed the same with friends and reations, arranged the bank guarantee, signed the contract, posted it back, waited for the nod, and finally boarded the Singapore Airlines aircraft.

Come on guys, how about accepting some responsibility!!

[Gladiator]

In the case of Singapore Airlines vs. Steve A. in a Singapore court, the Singaporean judge called the SIA contracts one sided, and unfair.

Hence SIA lost the case including three appeals.

I suppose you want me to post the Singaporean Judge's judgement word for word Kaptin M. If you want to I will.

When are you going to give it up. Accept the reality that the SIA contracts are 'Indentured Servitude'.

Stop posing as an ex or present SIA expat that really enjoyed or enjoys SIA and Singapore. You would be the first.

If Titan and Gladiator are full of hatred, you are equally full of hatred on the other side of the scale.

We have a purpose. what is your cause? It is obvious who you are (was it the 3rd floor or the 4th floor), you sound like Dudley and his kind, "but you signed, but you signed, but you signed" (sound like those dolls where you pull the string in the back, except you pull your own string). Only your kind would stand to gain from trying to discredit our claims on this international forum. Court documents speak for themselves my dear fellow.

The public have the right to know, not all are tunnel visioned. I present material for the public to read and make up their own mind. Your kind just slings mud.

Most of the people that are interested including the flying public do not wish to make posts on PPRuNe, the majority of the action happens on e-mail. This week alone I have mailed 50+ packets of information worldwide.

People are now used to you and the kinds of Whiskery, etc. The ones that really matter e-mail their addresses and faxes.

The mission continues.

[Taildragger]

Gladiator.... Are you still at it you naughty Freeman you. I well remember the cut and thrust of our exchanges when you had a previous identity. I think you have made your point that SQ are a bunch of ratbags whether they are or not, so can we please get back to your more intelligent ramblings.
I used to enjoy them. We WERE going to have a beer together remember.?? Next time you hit Athens or Europe give me a shout.
Damsel .... KILL.

[VelvetStrokes]

Gosh Gladiator you don't give up - and in such detail (not related to Sierra by any chance). I believe you have a hidden agenda and it's not to inform the public, noble as you make yourself sound. Your constant bleating appears to be sour grapes from someone who feels he should have been given more goodies in life.

The point Kaptin M and others were making, and it's a valid one, is that when you live in a country, follow their rules, laws and customs. Or follow your own and accept the consequences. Presumably, you were and are an adult and were able to read and understand any contract you signed. Also, that you researched the society you were joining.

I've lived in many countries, including several Middle East ones, and as long as I was not too outrageous, they allowed me certain leeway for being a foreigner. Less so in some than in others, but I accepted that as the price I paid for being there. I was usually forgiven for making mistakes, as long as I was not the arrogant foreigner trying to change their way of life in my image.

For the most part I was well treated, I learnt not to take life too seriously and that most people the world over want roughly the same things. Different ways of getting them, and the view presented by their media / governments often differs from what the average joe public would like to happen. They usually don't have a choice about where they live, it seems you did and still do. Have you never considered yourself fortunate to be able to do this. Instead of whinging and complaining about your poor treatment, accept it as part of your education, (now you have time on your hands, how about you sign up for a course in people / life skills).

Unfortunately, the UK Government /certain well-placed influential social engineers have decided in their wisdom to allow too many foreigners to dictate our policy and look at the mess we're in.

BTW, one last point, I'm flying Singapore Airlines soon and I'm one of the flying pax who do post on PPRuNe. I have to say that fortunately, you have not put me off flying with them, just the opposite. I would rather put my life in the hands of people like Kaptin M and Slasher, and others at whom you spit venom on this and other threads, than you and your ilk. Your attitude would affect your flying ability / crew morale and that does worry me.



[This message has been edited by VelvetStrokes (edited 17 June 2000).]

[Gladiator]

Have a nice trip.

[VelvetStrokes]

Hey Guys,
is that his shortest posting on record.

By the way, just so that I can avoid it, does anyone know what airline he works for currently (if any).

Gladiator, I'd be really worried if you still worked for SIA. But I shall enjoy my trip secure in the knowledge that my well-being is in safe hands (not yours).

[faheel]

V/strokes
your replies to Gladys are well put,pity you have allowed yourself to sink to personal insults though.
I do not agree with what he and titan etc say, well I should say in the majority of the things they say, but insults only lower the credibility of your posts.

[VelvetStrokes]

Faheel,
A point well taken, and in normal circumstances I would agree with you. I'm usually known for my fairminded attitude elsewhere in Prune. Unfortunately, I have observed Gladiator's posts and even though he does present himself as the Champion of the Common Man, he has also elsewhere aimed offensive and unproven accusations (often implied, but nonetheless still unpleasant). I find that unacceptable and turned it back on him.


He is not defending the rights of Singapore staff against the big bad Airline, as he claims. He appears to be trying to justify his failure to continue his contract. Maybe I'm wrong and he really does seem himself as the righter of wrongs and a freedom fighter. But I think not.

My point was that with the level of anger and bitterness he displays, he is not, in my opinion as a pax, someone in whom I have much faith as a guardian of my life. I don't want to feel that the man at the pointy end who has my life in his hands for 95% of my journey is liable to go off the deep end. I do not want to continually read his griping with his lot, he comes across as a very bitter man.

Like others' here I've lived and worked under ex-pat conditions and 'put up' with those I did not agree with. I never subsequently complained that I had been hard-done-by. And yes, in one case I was shafted by the Middle Eastern man I worked for to the tune of $30,000. It happens, it's called a life learning experience. It did not make me bitter, nor stop me signing up again for another ME country. I just made damned sure that my next contract was air tight. It is not easy, sometimes to ignore the apparent / actual injustice of another culture / society. But as I understand it, he did not sign up to become a social engineer.

As everyone keeps telling him, he signed on the dotted line. He was, presumably an adult, knew exactly what he was signing. He was not forced to do this. He did it of his own free will. Now he spends an inordinant amount of time justifying why he feels hard done by. It's a case of methinks he doth protest too much.

Unfortunately, for his case, he has given us information overload. He also seems to be very contradictory - he states
Quote
'My net income since leaving SIA has fallen by 300%. Not only am I better off financially, being able to afford a house, car, boat and numerous toys; but I am happy. Happiness is not measured in dollars'

Now maybe it's due to English being his second language, but if his income has fallen by 300% how come he's better off financially. BTW - if he's spending 200% more than his income he's in serious trouble. Also, if happiness is not measured in dollars, how come he mentioned only the trappings of wealth.


But you're right faheel, it does detract from postings when personal insults are involved; Gladiator and Titan remember that.
A message to Gladiator, only those up to their necks in dirt have enough to throw at others.



------------------
Stroke me and I purr rrrrrr I'm such a sensual babe

but remember I have claws as well

[Gladiator]

Mr. Velvet it appears that you have mixed up the posts of Titan and Gladiator.

May I kindly (How is that slasher) suggest you go back and read the posts over and may be make notes.

[VelvetStrokes]

Gladiator, I have read your postings, unfortunately. You post your battles and your grievances in great detail. You also make veiled references to Kaptin M's hidden agenda and made accusations and implied things which you cannot substantiate. Don't you think constant reference to the KGB is just a tad melodramatic. Didn't know their influence stretched that far. Now if you had mentioned MI5 - different kettle of fish there mate.

No I have not mixed you up with Titan. Though I admit I did take part of his posting and incorrectly ascribe it to you. My apologies for that. I don't usually make such a fundamental error myself. However, you two tar yourselves with the same brush and it's difficult sometimes to tell you apart. I have to admit he is also one angry and bitter man.

Strange how both of you claim to be happy now and yet there is no evidence of it. You are both very similar, sure that you haven't signed on twice under different names.

Why do you feel that if you just keep telling us we will eventually get it right. That is, come round to your way of thinking. It would appear that you feel it your 'duty' to make us see with your eyes. Then everyone would be as happy as you.

My post stands, you do make me nervous and if I had to fly with your airline. I would probably avoid any flight you were on. I want to feel that the Captain / crew are in control of their feelings. That they will deal with any emergency calmly and coolly and that I can rely on them to get me to my destination with as little fuss as possible.

I realise that English is not your first language, but that does not excuse fundamental errors in your underlying premise.

Your continuous whinging is doing your case no good in the eyes of most Pruners.

I come back to my point, you are an adult, you signed in good faith. That you made a mistake, okay, but accept. You do not appear to have lost by it. By your own admission you are now much better off than you were. So why are you still harping on about what it cost you.

BTW I'm a woman and if you know anything about the Middle East you will know that my working there was not a piece of cake. However, I did the job I was employed to do. I have completed and fulfilled every single one of my commitments.

I was given an option at the end of one contract. Sign an agreement that stated I had not earned my end of contract bonus, which amounted to $30,000 (my local boss decided he did not want to pay it); or not get an exit visa and probably end up in one of their delightful jails. I signed. And I left. My UK company found it expedient to look the other way.

However, their loss, because my particular skills are in great demand. Despite many inducements I never went back to that country or that company. But what I didn't do is spend my time in recriminations and bore the pants off everyone around me about how hard-done-by I was. I was instantly snapped up by a rival company who not only were delighted to pay me more money, but found immense and extremely rewarding satisfaction in fulfilling a contract that the other company had lost due to not retaining my skills.

And you know I really am happy, as I said for the most part I thoroughly enjoyed my expat days.

Now Gladiator, your mission (if you wish to accept it) is to go and give us all a respite. You can take Titan with you if you wish and play happily in the sand pit.

This tape will self-destruct in five minutes.

5
4
3
2


[This message has been edited by VelvetStrokes (edited 18 June 2000).]

[titan]

Velvet Strokes......hi! My name is Titan. Please try and et your facts straight!!
Anyway, I'm at a loss to know why a "passenger" is getting so worked up over something that doesn't concern him. You really are showing signs of a nationalistic inferiority complex. So, take a big breathe, count to ten, and tell the matron to increase your medication.

If you take the time to read the SIA contract you will see that promotion is based on a willingness to show committment to the country. Fine; that sounds fair to me. However, when we applied for Residency, let alone Citizenship, we were all knocked back. One of my colleagues had five immigration rejection letters! SIA knew very well that that would be the case before we signed the contract. So, go back to the Misrepresentation Act of 1967, look under Fraud, and it states inducement. Maybe while you're pontificating you may want to go and look at the legal sections dealing with Uncertainty of Agreement, Unfair Contracts Terms Act 1977, Mistakes of Non Est Factum and the Statuite of Fraud 1677.
So, having been induced into becoming Singaporean Citizens, I believe I have the fair and just right to pass comment on the country where I have been induced into spending the next 30 years. Maybe you're just aggravated because I have somewhere else to go when the government bucks at me exercising that most basic of human rights - Freedom of Speech.
Maybe you are one of the little boys that Whiskery found so appealing on the side of the road.
Take the soap box in Speaker's Corner - if you dare.

[EasyGo-Lucky?]

To fully understand the frustrations and I would say anger on Gladys and Titans posts one must have been employed by SIA as a Second and First Officer on LOCAL terms, or have an extraordinary imagination.

I was in their position once and do understand their emotions. It is an experience I wish to forget which is why I try not to post on the subject. I made a terrible mistake but my morals kept me there until the Bond expired. As someone earlier wrote it is all part of lifes learning experience.

Although the posts do get down and dirty sometimes, overall I am just hoping that my colleagues in Aviation will learn by our mistakes. If that happens then Gladys and Titan please continue as you are.

For those posts we find distastefully then the option is there to just ignore them.

If I were a Singaporean I would be ashamed that people left my Garden City with the hatred and anger that is so prevalent. Lets hope the younger generation will change that, which I think will happen.

[Gladiator]

Velvet you are a woman. Fine.
You are not a pilot and are engaging in something you know nothing about.

All I have to say is have a nice day.

[addinfurnightem]

TITAN - you say that Velevet Strokes is nothing more than a passenger?

Exactly who is that you and your 'gang', (A Few Good Men etc.)have been trying to influence? - or are you trying to amass material to use at your own court hearing?
Hope you have not forgotten that the American and Australian legal system bear no known relationship? Personally I think Velvet Strokes has made very good points, but as I am an ex-pat Captain we may not share the same point of view?

[This message has been edited by addinfurnightem (edited 19 June 2000).]

[VelvetStrokes]

Titan and Gladiator

Exactly who do you think pays your wages when you are employed by an airline. You think they are in business because they want to give you a pretty uniform and let you play with your toys.

As for whether it's my business, yes it is. Both of you made it my business as soon as you posted publicly. There is nothing public spirited about what you are doing and the sooner you admit it the better.

And yes, as a passenger, I have every right to reply to your ramblings. I reiterate you concern me exactly for the arrogance you have displayed in your responses to me. So do not ever dismiss me as no account, nor tell me because I'm not a pilot that I have no right to require you to be accountable.

Obviously from both your responses you have no respect for those to whom you owe a duty when you fly.

Addiitionally, it is a classic ploy to deflect attention away from the real issues. Attack the person, rather than make a valid response. That way you do not have to defend the glaring inadequacies of your case.

Unfortunately, you will now never obtain that which you so desperately desire - the respect and admiration of your peers. Yes, I know you will now announce that it is all for the public awareness and your mission is to inform. But it's pretty bloody obvious why you continually harrangue Pruners with your updates and your ongoing legal wrangling. You want to make us see that you are jolly nice fellows, doing it so the rest of us can sleep safely in our beds. You want us to like you.

[Gladiator]

The first thing velvet it is important to remain calm.

Second thing is have a great day tommorow. Go to Singapore and enjoy the sights and great food.

May I suggest chicken rice.

[Goldwing2000]

Velvetstrokes,
I suggest some satay with the chicken rice and a couple of valium to calm yourself!
You can't seem to accept the fact that Gladiator and Titan are standing up for themselves when you by all accounts capitulated as you were screwed for $30,000 in end of year bonuses.Were your claws blunt as you were purrrrrrrring away!!!!!Let them lay their cards on the table for everyone to see and let us be the judge, after all it is a free world.
Their so called arrogance stems from the fact that they were(are) pilots of SQ and living in Singapore which unless you meet all three criterias and please don't insult our intelligence, you will know nothing about.

-----------
I don't suffer from insanity.I enjoy every minute of it.

[titan]

EasyGo-Lucky?

Thankyou. You put it very succintly.

[VelvetStrokes]

<big sigh> <huge sigh>

[tallyho92]

Velvet Strokes its not sighing you
should be doing but hissing instead,
its incredible how venomous you are.
Don`t articulate your feelings with
personal attacks or insults, it
devalues the very nature of prune.

There are a lot of people truly interested
in Titan`s and Gladiator`s posting
with regards to SIA, unless you have
lived in the lion city and are connected
with KIASU airways you really don`t have
any idea of the double standards that are
so prevalent.

Titan and Gladiator keep it coming boys,
all those opposing with their 2cents,
are just running scared to learn the truth,
and hence the perpentual harrasement.





------------------
you get what you put in,
and people get what they
deserve

[This message has been edited by tallyho92 (edited 21 June 2000).]

[This message has been edited by tallyho92 (edited 21 June 2000).]

[Kaptin M]

Yes Velvet, I think you hit the nail on the head, with your final sentence to Glad and the rest of his sewing circle, when you stated "You want us to like you" [ie. you are trying to get us to depise Singapore Airlines].

They are trying to throw so much mud, hoping that a little will stick...spending hours daily wasting time - theirs, and ours.

[Goldwing2000]

Kaptin M,
If you'er really not interested and supposedley WASTING your time then,why the hell are you doing poking you big nab on this forum.May I remind you that this is an open forum where free speech prevails so if you are tired,bored or worse still wasting your precious time then,don't bother switching your computer on.
You seem to be the champion of SQ's cause and obviously cannot take in the magnitude of information presented,all the while saying how we are trying to make people despise SIA.The plain truth is the facts are there for all to see so if one choses not to believe then so be it.
I suggest you and your venomous friend come up with more concrete replies or else don't waste our time.

-----------
I don't suffer from insanity.I enjoy every minute of it.

[VelvetStrokes]

Strange isn't it how one is reviled and vilified, whilst at the same time those who are doing the complaining are indulging in self-righteous mud-slinging and insulting innuendo or worse. Also a very odd phenomena that the more indignant the mud-slingers get, the more abusive their attacks. Could it be that they feel the ground slipping away from under their feet.

So far I've been attacked as ignorant of the situation, which there is no way anyone can be, with the amount of tautological and extraneous minutiae that has been posted ad infinitum. Also, that I'm a woman and not a pilot, not that I live or work in Singapore (for the airline or elsewhere). What on earth this has to do with my knowledge, interest or ability to understand the fundamental (or even the more estoteric) aspects of this case is beyond me.

Having lived in repressive societies and dictatorships and probably more countries, seen more cultures, and been exposed to more and different ways of life than you, I think I know how to research, understand and comprehend different countries' social and political systems. My belief is based on your very limited grasp of how to deal with 'outsiders'.

You have also responded in the same way to those who are all of the things you accuse me of not being. But only to those who disagree with you, why is that. Do you find it difficult to stand in the glare of a dis-interested party and state your case honestly and without resorting to rhetoric or to insults.

You tell me to calm down, when it is you Goldwing and Titan and Gladiator who should take step back and calm yourselves. You seem to be amongst the most heated on this forum. Oh and as for Tallyho - whose puerile attempt at devaluing my input is frankly more to be pitied than taken notice of. No doubt if I claim to be part of SIA or have lived in lion city or connected with KIASU I would then be accused of being a KGB agent, or a mole for the Singapore Goverment.


QUOTE FROM GOLDWING
If you'er really not interested and supposedley WASTING your time then,why the hell are you doing poking you big nab on this forum.May I remind you that this is an open forum where free speech prevails so if you are tired,bored or worse still wasting your precious time then,don't bother switching your computer on.

--------------
Free speech is the right of every citizen to use but not to abuse. The problem lies when those who claim its privileges then wish to stop others availing themselves of the same rights. None of you have any more right nor less to post your views.

Again, if you find our responses not to your taste you have every right to ignore them. Why if what we say has so little impact are you spending so much time, effort and mind-numbing bombast in denigrating us and our views. Magnitude of information is right, but in amount not scope.

As I said before, I'm sure that you will continue to harrangue us until we get it right. What was the phrase you used - oh yes 'plain truth is the facts are there for all to see', well if this is the case, then why not let them speak for themselves.


As for being a friend of Kaptin M - guys I consider that an honour and a privilege.


[This message has been edited by VelvetStrokes (edited 21 June 2000).]

[addinfurnightem]

Well said Velevt Strokes - but a word of caution, "Golden Balls", "Goldenwing2000" etc. is not the newcomer to PPruNe he suggests, more likely one of the 'gang of4/6/8' who jumped ship, broke their bonds and fled, or, possibly someone known previously as "Skeltor", (now known as "Judas Skeltor")and who may well still work for S.I.A.
You have nailed it in one, all those in favour, welcome! All those against, vitriol, abuse, insult and in the worst case, from 'Skeltor' personal identification.
How sad, (for Skeltor), since, at my advanced stage in life I know most of the management and training staff OUTSIDE SQ, in Europe, Middle East, Far East, Australia etc. etc. etc. and since I now know who "Skeltor" is, well, a very tough row to hoe, I would think?
But, I am not vindictive, so, from what I hear, he is more than capable of digging his own hole, where ever he goes!!
Keep at it Velvet Stokes, you have them by their "Goldenballs" in objective argument alone, never mind anything else, (as you have seen, facts come last).

[Gladiator]

Wow, calm down. It is probably Doreen Y.

[titan]

Velvet Strokes: Why? Bill Gates has made a fortune designing a thesaurus into Word. Why has it taken you so long to discover where it is. A broad, laterally based non-Singaporean education would have taught you the following synonyms without having to resort to a thesaurus:

Democracy - free-speech
Singapore - authoritarianism
coverup - negligence
corruption - illegal
RJT - whiteglover
stalling - dangerous
low-time - ignorance
integrity - moral-fortitude
chicken-rice - cholestrol
LKW - autocrat
Goh - puppet

Now be good children and go and comment on the 747-400 stalling incident on Rumours....off you go now.

[whiskery001]

If KaptinM and Velvet Strokes are so well educated, then why do they persist in asking Gladiator to put the pleadings into plain english? I'm not surprised to see that the Singaporeans are very limited in their comprehension of the law. Maybe they should go off and ask their Jandakot instructors to give them a hand.

[Gladiator]

001 I am still looking for the 250 hr pilot place where they all gather. Help.

[tallyho92]

So true Goldwing2000
VS, KM & co why don`t you take a leaf out of
your own tattered book and spare us the
the incessant, repetitive, mundane rhetoric

Your rambling (verbal intercourse) is only
surpassed by the hypocrisy of your postings,
which must be taken with an air of contempt,
a floccinaucinipilification of all that can
gratify the superficial person.

As for help in devaluing your disparaging and
contumelious remarks,hey you`re doing a great
job all by yourself, just take a look at a
few of your recent postings. What gall you
have to attempt and lecture us on the ideals
of free speech, when clearly the mere concept
escapes your sieved mind, otherwise why would
you lambast Gladiator & Titan for their palaver in Prune.They at least have more in
common with professional pilots than you ever ever will.

It is interesting to note that VS & KM have
an affinity for the term mud slinging, probably tac team partners in WWF mud pit
Now why don`t you be a good girl and run off
with Kaptin M and play with your dolls.

------------------
you get what you put in,
and people get what they
deserve

[This message has been edited by tallyho92 (edited 23 June 2000).]

[Slasher]

Yeh like TallyHo said. You guys are cantakerus and expialadotious. You should be more supercallafragelistic and avoid the superestablishmentarianism that so often ameliorates when floccinaucinipilification floccinaucinipilificates salubrifacation and general stuffing around.

:)

[tallyho92]

Right on Slasher, could`t put it better
myself, should have elicited your help
before posting.

Who says we pilots don`t have a sense of
humour. :) :) :) :)

------------------
you get what you put in,
and people get what they
deserve

[Whiskery]

Hell Slasher and I was always under the impression you were just a working class man!

[VelvetStrokes]

Well Guys, you really ought to get a life.

Oh Titan, by the way, if you are going to put forward criticism of English, please make sure you do your homework properly. Mostly, one could drive a bus through the holes in your arguments. I realise this was probably an attempt at humour, but I've taught 15-year old English students who could construct a better case for the defence than anything I've seen here. The legalese notwithstanding.

For your information note the following - not out of a thesurus, but purely from memory. As for the Microsoft version, well the less said the better. If that is the reference for your understanding of English, no wonder you have such trouble with it. Incidentally, Bill Gates did not design a thesaurus into Word. His company built it as an integral part of Word.

Next time you attempt to give definitions of words, make sure your versions are accurate.

Democracy - Free speech is currently an inherent part of democracy not a synonym. Democracy (from the Greek demokratia) is the right of the people to govern through their duly elected representatives. No more and no less.
Singapore may in your opinion equate with authoritarianism - but is not a definition, since Singapore means the place.
Cover up (two words) - is not negligence, it is a deliberate act at concealment, usually of a crime
Corruption - may be illegal, but it means lacking in integrity and open to bribery
stalling - to employ delaying tactics or be evasive
integrity - sorry again wrong in your interpretation. It means adherence to moral principles, honesty, whole, sound. It has nothing to do with fortitude which means resolute endurance
chicken-rice - cholestrol - oh really chaps couldn't you come up with a better one than that
Now the rest of your list, we'll ignore because they are either acroynyms, non-sequitur or irrelevant.

Well Slash, glad to see your post, very amusing. Unfortunately irony seems to go right over their heads.

Strange how those with a weak case always, always obfuscate the issues with personal attacks on the opposition. Oh and if you are wondering why I use such convoluted English, seems to be the only thing you guys understand.

Oh and Tallyho - finding a few big words in a dictionary, then scattering them aimlessly for effect, doesn't mean you understand English, nor are able to use it effectively.



[This message has been edited by VelvetStrokes (edited 25 June 2000).]

[tallyho92]

Here we go again, I see the
PEANUT GALLERY IS BACK IN SESSION