Defining Greed:

[828a]

"All else, valour, a good name, glory, everything in heaven and earth is secondary to the charm of riches". Horace.

Written 2000 years ago by the Roman philosopher Quintus Horace and could easily have been penned yesterday. Nothing has changed.

828a

[Mr. Bloggs]

About the same time.:ok:

A holy man was having a conversation with the Lord one day and said, 'Lord, I would like to know what Heaven and Hell are like.'

The Lord led the holy man to two doors.

He opened one of the doors and the holy man looked in. In the middle of the room was a large round table. In the middle of the table was a large pot of stew, which smelled delicious and made the holy man's mouth water.

The people sitting around the table were thin and sickly. They appeared to be famished. They were holding spoons with very long handles that were strapped to their arms and each found it possible to reach into the pot of stew and take a spoonful. But because the handle was longer than their arms, they could not get the spoons back into their mouths.

The holy man shuddered at the sight of their misery and suffering.

The Lord said, 'You have seen Hell.'

They went to the next room and opened the door. It was exactly the same as the first one. There was the large round table with the large pot of stew which made the holy man's mouth water. The people were equipped with the same long-handled spoons, but here the people were well nourished and plump, laughing and talking. The holy man said, 'I don't understand.'

It is simple,' said the Lord. 'It requires but one skill. You see they have learned to feed each other, while the greedy think only of themselves.'

[missingblade]

"The average CEO made 42 times the average worker's pay in 1980. That increased to 85 times in 1990 and is now over 300 times."

Capitalism is out of control and morally bankrupt. It is doing less and less to improve the lives of the masses. It is a vicious circle of diminishing returns.
I have no problem with people getting rich - but I do have a problem with everybody else getting poorer in the process.

Never in the history of this planet have we had as much power as we have right now to improve the lives of all - and what do we choose to do....:ugh:

[Jack57]

Nope

Greed is the man who visits Macau on his days off to have relations with more than one eastern blocker

[828a]

Mr. Bloggs;

Not bad ; of course the last sentence sums it up nicely because what that sentence says is so very true. Unfortunately the greedy do not recognise that they are greedy, it's a failing of human nature.

828a.

[828a]

missing blade;

You say " capitalism is out of control and morally bankrupt " I agree, I also think that what this planet urgently needs is another Robin Hood.

828a.

[jed_thrust]

Missing Blade,

Your quote: “Capitalism is out of control and morally bankrupt. It is doing less and less to improve the lives of the masses…I have no problem with people getting rich - but I do have a problem with everybody else getting poorer in the process.” is standard fare in many circles, but most notably on the Left (used to be known as Communists); this notion, that economic growth is morally tainted is far from new, but is also, thankfully, wrong.


Mr Benjamin Friedman, in “The Moral Consequences of Economic Growth” writes extremely persuasively about the many issues involved, and talks about how “…the value of a rising standard of living lies not just in the concrete improvements it brings to how individuals live but in how it shapes the social, political and ultimately the moral character of a people.”


The Economist mentions that growing prosperity makes people more tolerant, more willing to settle disputes peacefully, more inclined to favour democracy. Stagnation and economic decline are associated with intolerance, ethnic strife and dictatorship. Think of the few countries in the world that currently actively avoid capitalism – and pursue a policy of isolationism - (North Korea, Cuba, Myanmar, even China 30 years ago) and it should be painfully clear that “a rising tide lifts all ships”.


I will grant you that not all people get richer at the same rate, but there is no question in my mind that nearly everybody (or every cohort) is now better off than they were a few decades ago. Just think of the current poverty line: it used to be USD1 per person per day. The material benefits of growth, chiefly in the form of extra goods and services, become available to everyone over time.


I cannot argue with your quote: “"The average CEO made 42 times the average worker's pay in 1980. That increased to 85 times in 1990 and is now over 300 times." because, although not attributed, I can believe that it is probably correct. However, the real nub of this problem is that (as someone who has been here longer than I mentioned) in the early 90s, a Cathay Captain was earning close to 20 times the average Male Earnings in Australia, and yet now the multiplier is probably about 4 times. The other problem is that society’s presumption about our job is still stuck in the 90s: they think we earn a million bucks and have 18 days off a month (like we used to!).


This is probably the reason we are all feeling “poor” and why we feel we deserve a pay rise. Maybe – if we don’t do something - in 10 year’s time our wage will equal the average Male Earnings?

[missingblade]

Jedthrust.

You are mostly correct. I am not a socialist and I understand we have no replacement for the efficiency of capitalism. It is sucessfull purely because it frees people up to PURSUE THEIR OWN INTEREST. This is human nature as Pavlov and his dog demonstrated.

HOWEVER - Cultural institutions are being eroded, nature is being destroyed, and human beings are in danger of self-destruction if their orgy of consumerism, production, and technological advancement continues unabated.
In America people go hungry. In the Middle East the corrupt sheiks keep their people poor and ignorant while they make billions and America bombs them. In HKG I shudder every time I see a grandma pickin up carton boxes to sell in the street. This city was built by those people and what do they have to show for it? In Africa the world turns a blind eye to unspeakable abuse etc etc etc.

The greatest promise of capitalism is not being fulfilled fast enough. I think a certain amount of environmental conservation/ education/upliftment should be legally required from all sucessfull capitalists. If all big corporates are legally forced to invest a percentage of their billions in bettering this world the promise of capitalism will be a reality so much sooner.
And the rich can still be rich - there's enough to go around.

[gerbil1]

What a pleasure to read a thread where all the contributors are able to spell correctly. Thankyou Gentlemen.

[jtr]

What a pleasure to read a thread where all the contributors are able to spell correctly. Thankyou Gentlemen.

Yes Gentlemen, Thank You... or Thank-you...or Thankyou apparently


Hello, is that the spelling police? I would like to report a crime:}:}

[SOPS]

Its a first post...and its the spelling police:confused::ugh:

[828a]

jed thrust.
missing blade.
sylversurfer.

You three gents have certainly given the viewers a little something to think about.

jed thrust: I cannot agree with your assertions that economic growth is not morally tainted. The very essence of what has been said on these boards ( as replies ) indicates in no uncertain terms that it is tainted. Congratulations on the rest of your comments.

missing blade: I'm with you because I also shudder when I see that very same Grandma sorting street rubbish . It is not easy to look the other way and remain comfortable. Things have got to change.

sylversurfer: I'm with you too, well said.

828a.

P.S. gerbil1: It's been my contention for some time that Cathay should issue a good dictionary and a good thesaurus to all it's flight deck crew. The spelling police will now have me on their " most wanted list " for saying that, just you wait and see.

[828a]

ampan:

I knew it would happen but I did not expect it so soon!!. Looks as if I may have to get a proof reader. All the best.

828a.

[828a]

Zoologist:

Modern punctuation is the written expression of vocal intonation, only the speaker, therefore, is in a position to correctly evaluate the use of an exclamation mark. Your call.

828a

[Loopdeloop]

I hate to get involved in your spat, but the following is a reasonable interpretation of the rules of punctuation in this case:

Exclamation marks may be repeated for additional emphasis ("That's great!!!"), but this practice is generally considered unacceptable in formal composition.

I guess it comes down to whether you consider pprune to be a formal composition or not.;)

[volarecantare]

Great to see this side shine more thank the usual 12 angry man scenes...delightfullll !!!!!!!!

"Any clever man may sometimes see the truth in flashes; any scientific man may put some aspect of the truth into technical words; yet all this hardly deserves the name of philosophy so long as the heart remains unabashed, and we continue to live like animals lost in the stream of our impressions, not only in the public routine and necessary cares of life, but even in our silent thoughts and affections."

-- George Santayana, "Ultimate Religion,"

[missingblade]

“Not if anything to say about it I have”

-Yoda

[Busdude]

I think Zoologist is trying to point out the use of a full stop after the exclamation marks. It's not required.

[N1 Vibes]

My two-penneth,

if you felt the urge to do something for the grandma in the street, you may give money/shelter/food something like that. But, then you might use the old adage "if I give money/shelter/food to one needy person should I not give equally to all?". Here you might think about giving to/starting a charity, to provide larger, more equal sums, to more people - a commendable thing. But, most charities need organisation, hierarchy etc, so you're pretty much back to a business type structure, a democracy. Where even the fairest boss may actually thinking about themselves/company/charity before others.

Therefore going back to the second quotation in this thread, from Mr Bloggs, and I'm not a religious type in any way, isn't it actually a humanist approach that may have the best result for the human race/planet? I.e. all working with each other, fo the same goal of survival, rather than for a boss/government/state or oneself etc?

Hoping this isn't thread drift, and that mY spElLiNg/punCtuAti0n wAS c0rrect!

Regards,

N1 Vibes

[missingblade]

Humanism is a great idea - but is contrary to our animal nature.

Capitalism is successful because it depends on the animal instinct to feed yourself first. However we somehow developed GREED ( which started this thread )

Animals don't seem to have this thing for greed - they will have their fill and then let the others eat.

More and more this seems to be the overriding 'benefit' of our so called superior intellect and creativity - perverting everything that is natural.

This process only seems to overturn itself after extreme excess has been achieved (Bill Gates had to be the richest man on earth before he pledged to give it all away ) and then realize that you simply have no use for all that cash.....

Unfortunately the average new capitalist is too happy splurging on yachts to think about the sweatshop worker creating his product or the C scaler having to cough up a $ 120 000 bribe (debenture in capitalist speak ) to get his kid into an English school in HKG :}

[volarecantare]

You are making the implied assumption that Bill Gates motivation was money and his "end" goal which it was not. I would have guessed having followed his career a bit that money was an end to a means for him he had a "vision" of a PC on every desk and in every home by 2000 and he had that vision when a 'PC' cost equivalent to a jumbo jet...He managed to bring the price down from Jumbo jet to pizza and he didn't even see them himself, genius...

By the way publicly giving all your money away means the money has now the function of presenting one as a very decent person rather then a very rich or powerful person , but there is still a benefit even if its just the satisfaction of doing something good. So is it possible to do a good selfless act without any benefit?

Animals it could be suggested don't have greed because they do not have reason. There basic driving forces then are only survival and reproduction.

In the
Nicomachean Ethics (fantastic read! ) its fascinating how our man Aristotle defines happiness by examining all of the various proposals and comes to the beautiful conclusion of

Happiness is the pursuit of excellence through virtue (virtue being balance)...

NI the problem with us lot is that its not all about survival any more in this business..families , health and minds are falling apart....some are beyond the point of having to work to survive and therefore are now wanting to enjoy lifestyle and live a bit. We no longer have a unified objective and our "leadership" do not seem to have an idea of where they are going or the challenges they are creating by constantly pulling at the low lying fruit....

Now where is that remote control....This is great lads a decent chat for a change..

[N1 Vibes]

missingblade,

interesting that you mention Bill Gates, his massive donation to his own trust is indeed a great move. But, of course you forget that Bill gave almost all his money, actually about 80% of it. When you remember that Bill was a multi billionaire - about $5 billion I think - that leaves Bill $1 point something billion for him to feed his family and buy tasteful sweaters.....

volarecantare,

yes - it's good to talk. As we humans have the largest brains in nature, and our intelligence has gone way beyond the dolphins, the firt thing we would have 'capitalised' on would have been land - territory - as we hadn't invented money 1 million years ago. Then we found that we needed to defend that land/territory - and so eventually a few hundred thousand years on - borders were born. With those borders came the wealth of the land within, and then jealousy of the land beyond. Greed, war, violence, theft etc. The thing that fascinates me that an animal (humankind) that is intelligent enough to survive and has developed systems to exist in some sort of peace/equality, be it in small numbers, in the 5 billion residents, that we still feel we need greed/borders. Your thoughts.

Regards,

N1 Vibes

[volarecantare]

Hi Vibes, I like his sweaters..cool though I am not.


some interesting points there. First of all it seems the issues with borders and ownership seems to come from a feeling of separatism which I suspect is the root cause of many issues world wide. This fear starts in individuals the first time they feel their needs are not met which as any parent knows is inevitable for every child. This then is where the child begins to experience fear and develop negative emotions of them. It struggles to feel safe in a world which encourages in most of its modern development, Newtonian and male perspective to react from that place of fear rather than the more inclusive feelings of love. Ancient cultures lived more in harmony with each other and nature understanding that everything is interconnected and part of a unified system. The result of moving away from this is evident everywhere, environmentally economically and in global unrest (even here on this site). However we humans as a species are now being forced to witness the cause and effects of living like this. massive natural economic and natural adjustments are taking place which although appearing terrifying from our small flatlander perspectives will inevitably lead to a more balanced system again. Subconsciously everyone is feeling this and its playing out in their own dramas everyday projecting their fears onto some "perceived enemy" whether is "the company" 'The management' or some poor bloke or girl taking up a freight base. The fact is security is an illusion which is desperately hung on to be ego and fear. That illusion is being torn to shreds, of course people will be scared initially. However if one relaxes, goes back to their basic needs and instinct takes responsibility for who they are and where they are there is a gem of treasure of inner peace which is threatened by no one or nothing...Boundaries therefore personally and internationally will dissolve. Your thoughts?

[828a]

Busdude:
Of course you are perfectly correct, that full stop should not be there and I realise now I should be more careful. My mistake it won't happen again.

Loopdeloop:
I agree with your comments about the rules for using exclamation marks as I find them irritating in well written prose. However I trust you observed my reference to "modern" punctuation. All the best.

volarecantare:
missing blade:
sylversurfer:
N1 Vibes:

Your collective comments are positive and enlightening but may I suggest you spare a thought for the young Asian woman up to her ankles in water planting rice. A gaggle of migrating geese fly overhead and she stands erect to watch them. She continues to watch even after the geese have long disappeared. People like us with unlimited opportunity can't even begin to imagine her immediate thoughts and therein lies another injustice.

828a

[Buttie Box]

I blame it all on Margaret Thatcher...

[Bedder believeit]

N1 Vibes, you are counting young William Gates down a bit. According to the current list of Forbes World's billionaires, Billy has a net worth of some $USD56 Billion, yes, that's Fifty Six! So even if he really did divest himself honourably of 80% of his lot, it would still leave some 11 Billion dollars, and the prospect probably, of never having to pay tax again.
Amongst my definitions of greed, is when my trainee in the tower is doing ground control, the frequency is very busy, a B747 has pushed back from bay W61 and is taking a bit longer than normal to be on his way, and some guy on W63 who is blocked starts to bleat "How much longer are we going to be delayed?". In the words of the spelling police, "how the f**k would I know!". Actually, on re-reading V-cantare's last post, maybe V-c's references to childish fears could throw some light on the subject.
Apart from that, an interesting thread with some nice points of view.

[N1 Vibes]

Volarecantare,

you make a very strong point in reference to the fears of the child and the role of the parent. My nagging question is sort of chicken and egg, is/was the thought of fear/losing something/being poor/greed learnt by the parents from humanity/society/state? Personally I think it is more towards the latter 2, especially as society becomes more perfection driven, nice car, nice house, white teeth, pale skin, rich etc.

This search for perfection is ultimately driven by the state, that wants to have the most wealth, land, control, power etc, when they virtually dictate to society "we must be more successful" at something, translates as "we must make more money/land". The fear of not having these things at a state level, filters down to the individual who also behaves in this way with house, car, money, possesions. Politicians are very clever at making people think that everything the state owns is also theirs, but it's not really is it? We voted them in, they are in control. not us individually. Only the £5 note says it "will pay the bearer the amount", it doesn't physically mean I own £5 worth of the british state. Democracy is not the perfect answer here.

And in certain countries, not far from where we live, this fear/desire can be very powerful, especially when private ownership has been repressed for so long, it is the state which repressed the chinese peoples personal wealth growth, which it believed would make things 'equal'.

Now, you only have to look at the flag waving and almost enforced anthem singing at yesterdays torch relay, to see the behaviour of adults 'in fear' of how the state sees them, back to perception of image. And the relation of the individual with the state, if I don't sing my heart out and wave a flag, the state will see me as bad, and therefore I won't succeed. This is not unique to China, look at how individuals/big business worldwide behaves to keep the state/individual politicians happy.

Finally, your point about the ancient society's I basically agree, but even those societies had hierarchy. Could it be that the human races greatest achievement - organised societies - has perhaps today become it's greatest downfall? Hierarchy - individual leadership/control - jealousy of that individuals elevated position/wealth - GREED?

Hope the thread drift wasn't too much, your thoughts.

Regards,

N1 Vibes

PS Bb - 0ooops, I didn't know it was that much!

[Bedder believeit]

N1 V, well written observations. Funnily enough, I was in Central yesterday afternoon when the flame deal was going on, and I thought exactly the same sentiments that you have elucidated. When I arrived home I was watching the Australian Network "News Hour" and there was a 5 minute video grab on a company that has been set up in London to advise wealthy philanthropists on how to "better" direct their donations for the benefit of others, so that they won't be "ripped off" - shall we say. Will be interesting to see in the future, if said "company" itself has a totally free and unblemished record! Included was a bit on the foundation set up by Bill Gates and Warren Buffet, and the two have each "donated" 31 billion dollars (don't know what sort, but I don't think they are Zimbabwean!) to their foundation..

Sorry if I seemed to be introducing another aspect into this discussion re "whinges", but I guess I was alluding to the fact that there are other forms of greed, other than fiscal, such as "time greed" whereby "my time is more important than yours", or "emotional greed" whereby "I expect more from this relationship than I am prepared to give" etc.

Cheers

[Basil]

the average new capitalist is too happy splurging on yachts to think about the sweatshop worker creating his product
. . but, nevertheless, giving employment and cash to those who design, build and operate the yacht and to those who make his capital products.
I read a comment from over a hundred years ago by a literate farm worker who wrote of the painful hacks on his hands as he wove wattle fencing panels outdoors in a British winter.
I'd rather work in a factory.
Can't say I have a lot of time for 'intellectual' discussion of the condition of man.

[828a]

Confucius knew a thing or two about greed. He speaks of it when discussing the nobler man.

Quote: "There are three impulses against which the nobler sort of man is on his guard. In the period of youth, when the heyday in the blood has not yet subsided, he guards against lustfulness; in the prime of life, when the physical frame is vigorous and strong, he guards against pugnacity; in old age, when the vital forces are in their decline, he guards against the greed of gain." unquote.

He seems to be saying that in old age greed is one of the few things left.

828a

[jtr]

He seems to be saying that in old age greed is one of the few things left


Well..... that and the Amah....

[Kitsune]

Then you need to sign on 'til 65 on 'O' scales to pay the cock tax..... and raise your new family........:}

[N1 Vibes]

Basil,

an interesting quotation, was this from an essay or a diary? If it was from the former then one would believe it to be the firm belief of the writer, after considering carefully what to write in his essayIf it was the latter, then it could have been a particularly harsh winter, or just a bad day, and the comment should be taken in context.

It's like a pilot keepinga diary and saying "that's the 100th sector I've flown this month and I'm sick of it, the boss won't let me retire til I'm 65, and I didn't get a payrise - I wan't to give up flying and clean the streets for a living".

On the subject of sweatshops, have you actually visited any towns/cities in asia that are producing your Tommy !!!!flinger boxer shorts for £4.99? I recently did, Hanhgzhou and Shaoxing, these places are terribly polluted from coal burning, the residential buildings are all tightly packed, with no real open spaces, and those that do have open space, it's covered with concrete - this is not exactly quality of life.

And to follow your quotation - some of my relatives live off the land, in beautiful bamboo lined valleys, not 10km from these industrial cesspits. The younger relatives are all moving to the towns and cities, because it seems to be more attractive. To drive cars, own an appartment, earn a wage. Yet, as happened in the UK/Europe at the time of the writing of the farmer, something else happened as a result of the industrial revolution.

With the move of people to the towns and cities for work there was a total loss of community for the country people. Whereas today you can walk into the above mentioned valleys and be weclomed in as a stranger, and everybody in the village is looking out for each other, helping with difficult jobs, a system of community barter still exists etc - they still have a real sense of community spirit and this brings out their humanity on a local scale.

But, the people who have moved to the town have lost their sense of community, as they don't know the background of person who lives down the hallway, they didn't grow up together in the same village as children, there's no sense of connection and they certainly wouldn't give up a day to help them with their work in a factory, as they would have done for their neighbour in the village.

At the time of wiriting more than 50% of the global poulation lives in a city, in another 10 years that will be 60%, this will continue to erode any sense of community that has existed between people. This will also mean that your boxer shorts will be even more cheaper.

We hope you enjoy wearing them!

Regards,

N1 Vibes

[Kitsune]

So it's a good thing right? It's all very well being sanctimonious as long as it's not YOU living over the pigs and chickens. People move from their ancestral homes for what THEY perceive to be a better quality of life, either for them or their children. Bleeding heart Western liberals who want to freeze these people in some sort of time warp need to try living as subsistence farmers for a couple of months. :=:=

[Basil]

N1 Vibes,
I can't remember in what form it was written or where I read it.
Just for clarification the comment 'I'd rather work in a factory.' was mine and not the farm worker's.

[Barbossa]

Most certainly an interesting thread if only for the sheer timing so soon after the collapse of Oasis; an airline supposedly founded on the basis of biblical values by a God-fearing Reverend and a born-again CEO who did nothing but espouse the philanthropic desire to bring the world to the poor (or was it the poor to the world?). After all it was God that whispered in the CEO's ear wasn't it?

And yet 18 months later, after 18 months of vanity and self-adoration, and nothing but abuse and misuse of 700+ employees, those very same individuals brought about its collapse through sheer business ignorance and incompetence; oh and of course, failing to capitalise a bloody good business that they created. Perhaps they thought God would provide?

...and of course, those poor, impoverished wretches that the good Reverend had hoped to send to the world, are now poorer, losing their money and the [sweat] shirts off their backs.

Morality left the building a long time ago....

[TheChitterneFlyer]

I think I looked up at the same gaggle of migrating geese... except that I fell over!

TCF

[N1 Vibes]

Zoologist,

great comparison!

Basil,

thanks for clearing up your point. Might I counter - for the British 19C farmer - painful hacks on his hands - for the 21C chinese factory worker 60-70hr week, horrific industrial accidents, airborne pollution that will slowly kill them or the swift death traffic accident - 13 times more likely to die on a road in China vs UK per head of population.

Kitsune,

Bleeding heart Western liberals who want to freeze these people in some sort of time warp need to try living as subsistence farmers for a couple of months

No. I don't want to freeze people in a time warp, they need support and investment from the 'state' dare I say it. The loss of the younger people to the towns makes the life even more harder and eventually villages will die out.

Your point is excellent actually, more people should go back to the land/country, this would revive communities that actually genuinely supported each other.

As for:

People move from their ancestral homes for what THEY perceive to be a better quality of life, either for them or their children

Here's the nub, who gives these people that "perception of better quality of life"? The first indication they get is from the state - by their massive investment in growing industrial towns, and their total lack of investment in rural areas. The second source of perception is from society/media suggesting that the quality of life is better in the towns.

Do you believe everything you are told by the UK government about the quality of your life? Or all that you see in an advertisment on TV? If you do then you are a true 'state believer'. But, from your membership of Pprune and your comments I would guess you very much have your own mind/access to the internet/free-media in the UK etc.

The people living in a village in China DO NOT have this advantage!

Suggest you might want to visit China's industrial regions for a clearer view of whats being discussed here. Or just continue buying your underpants for £4.99.

Regards,

N1 Vibes

[828a]

A little off topic but relevant. It's a wake up call for the disgruntled frogs of Cathay. The frogs who managed to escape from their hometown suburban well but for some unfathomable reason wished they hadn't.

"I do not deny the happiness of a life spent beneath the shadow of the belfry of one's own home, surrounded by one's own family; but, after all, what are such joys as these compared to those of the explorer who goes forth to meet the unknown ready for all that may betide, making fresh discoveries at every turn, gladly facing all and rejoicing in the ever-changing, ever-widening horizon before him? Who would care to forego the joys of memory, the power of living over again in old age the adventures of youth, of seeing once more with the mind's eye the wonders of the far-distant lands visited when the mind was still buoyant, the sight still undimmed, the limbs still in all the vigour of manhood? Happy mortal indeed is he who, thoroughly imbued with the spirit of the discoverer elects to travel this path. "

828a

[Kitsune]

N1, in a previous life I spent quite some time in the industrial heartlands of China.... you or I would find all the pollution etc. unbearable, which is why expats get paid so much out there. But if the choice is standing up to your knees in water planting rice from sunrise to sunset or working in those areas, I know what I would take!!

Once again, the western liberal idea myth some sort of Garden of Eden of bucolic joy out in the countryside of ANY emerging country in the world today is just that, a myth. In todays' world your country is either pre-industrial or industrial. Those that get 'left behind' in the countryside lose out big time, and every peasant the world over knows that and heads for the nearest city in fine pitch......:cool:

[N1 Vibes]

kitsune,

if there were some grain of humanity between nations, rather than competition, then those developed/industrial nations would be in a position to demonstrate that the need for 300 pairs of boxer shorts is not really necessary - i.e. less greed for unnecessary things - borne out by the fact that fact that we would need 3.5 planets to maintain the global populus at the current british level of comfort/greed and the more well publicised 5 planets for the american standard - greed being the main point of this thread. Of corse if you advocate the world populus living at the same level as these nations, then what future for our/their grandchildren.

If we could demonstrate to developing nations that actually our own countries became over industrialized, to support our lifestyles of excessive consumption. Then perhaps a return to more rural/simpler/less consumptive living might temper some greed in both industrial and developing countries.

"There is enough in this world for everyones need, but not for everyones greed."

Your thoughts,

N1 Vibes

[828a]

Kitsune:
For someone who claims to have spent time in central China you don't seem to have a very good understanding of what's what. How about expressing a little appreciation and sympathy for the long suffering Chinese peasants.

It was supposed to be their revolution. They form the majority of the Chinese population (some 750 million people), and they have suffered longer and more deeply than anyone. They were promised so much. They were supposed to be liberated by the great experiment in social equality called Communism, but they have ended up back at the bottom of the pile. It is a betrayal of monumental proportions, considering the roots of the Communist revolution and its original aims, a betrayal that could end up having colossal consequences for the Communist Party of China.

828a

[Basil]

horrific industrial accidents, airborne pollution that will slowly kill them or the swift death traffic acciden
I know two wrongs don't make a right but have to say, to some extent, been there, T-shirt etc.
I commenced work in 1957 and by the time I was twenty, I'd come extremely close to death in two incidents, one ashore and one in the MN.
In addition, almost drowned, fell off a bus, several pushbike and motorcycle and pedestrian accidents, stepped, inadvertently, off the back of a truck when 24 - this is boring me now; it could go on :(
We had coal fires then and I recollect fogs where you really had difficulty seeing more than a couple of yards.
We, in the West, have been through all that has been mentioned and more in our industrial revolution so forgive me if I refrain from piously wringing my hands over the trials and tribulations, no matter how serious and real, of others in their endeavours to join us.

[Busbert]

In my rural upbringing in what was at the time considered a developing country, you could get everything you needed in the local village shop 3 miles away (1 hour's walk). If you couldn't buy it there, you didn't actually need it, you only thought you wanted it.

Simpler times.

[volarecantare]

I have been offline for a few days and N1 the thread has continued to grow and blossom beyond our discourse. I just want to say that instead of the usual feeling of sticking ones head into a toilet that one often gets following the usual topics on this forum, this thread instead is a breath of fresh air. Whether one agrees or disagrees is irrelevant but what is happening is a sharing of views as one would a good meal tasting and comparing ideas not with an attempt to convert but rather to enrich the perspectives. Well done all!
828...beautiful quotes my friend...
N1 Vibes, where have you been as I sat on many an overnight craving a decent conversation as the crew warbled on in some puerile attempt at intimacy by bashing whoever the particular collectively perceived enemy was all the while terrified to show any weakness or doubt in their confidence in the direction of the "general Matey consensus of the day"
From what I have seen in my half century of existence is often as the standards of life rises so often the quality of life declines. The more people have to loose the more fearful they become. CX was long the golden grail of aviation jobs and the cost of displacement that we have all paid in becoming ex pats is evident everywhere, KA was like to smaller brother to many who realised it was a potentially quicker route to freedom (back home) if they were clever and stable enough to hit the ground running and maximise every penny they earned. The fact is though very few have any idea of the cost to them ex pat life brings where the longer you stay, the better you become at saying goodbye to friends, family and loved ones and the further away that idea of home is. Sadly if one leaves it too late when they return home they realise time has not stood still and the person that they were when they left and the place they left are now worlds apart and so sadly often are their wife and kids. If you can and you feel you need to get yourself off those sleeping tablets, get your head out of the virtual world of the internet, get your wife off those anti depression tablets the docs hand out here like smarties on the company health insurance and get your kids off those antibiotics and revisit your dreams and priorities. If you have a base or an offer that suits grab it. Or hold your breath and jump, you can grow your wings on the way down. If you choose to stay then keep well away from the toxins, people places and media and make the best of the place and wish others well in their choices. In this narcissitic place, do something everyday to bring you out of your comfort zone and reach out to someone who needs some help.

(edit, this is a very long post...so if you are bored at this point here is me (in my dreams) singing a little melody about the magic of flying (volare and) Cantare (singing)...just look at the expression in 00:38)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=YtKrXbGEAd4
Volare, oh oh
Cantare, oh oh oh oh
Let's fly way up to the clouds
Away from the maddening crowds
We can sing in the glow of a star that I know of
Where lovers enjoy peace of mind
Let us leave the confusion and all disillusion behind
Just like bird of a feather, a rainbow together we'll find
....Poi d'improvviso venivo dal vento rapito (then suddenly the winds got faster )
E incominciavo a volare nel cielo infinito (and I was flying in the infinite sky)
And I flew and flew happily to the heights of the Sun
And higher and higher into the sky.
While the world slowly, slowly
Disappeared in the distance down there.
Sweet music sounded
For me alone.



Now, Barbossa you comments on the "reverend" I believe are somewhat unfair and your discussion of "God fearing" leaves you wide open to proving such a strong position. I would suggest that God fearing is not a healthy foundation for anything to be built upon and it is our own inner demons that we should fear. God if you believe in one should not be feared I would suggest. Projection of ones own fears onto god or management or even Apple Tree yard is not the way to go.


NI you mention the effect the media has on people. Shortly after 911 THEN The IRAC Invasion SARs and up to the tsunami I realised that I was actually becoming quite frightened of the world and stressed. I also noticed that that fear was being fed and fed by hours of watching CNN Fox and reading though endless newspapers. I had become addicted to the toxic propaganda that was big shoveled out in buckets by the media. I decided to stop it. I no longer spend time in hotel rooms with the remote in my hand glued like a zombie to the TV, 2 minutes on a news channel just grabbing the headlines suffices and a glance on the headlines on the on line papers is quite enough. I can tell you something. The world seems like a much nicer place. One can still see the problems and the issues but I am not overwhelmed by despair. Out there if you look there are some magnificent authors and journalists and philosophers who can stand back and look at the bigger picture rather than stirring the crap in the pot and force feeding it as all there is. Our energy goes where our attention goes and in a world that is in such dynamic transition at the moment we should be careful what we feed our minds with.

It doesn't really matter how much damage we little humans do "to the planet" Old Mother nature will adjust and correct things her way the only ones that will suffer is us. Our measly lifespan of circa 70 years or so, is just that. I watched that movie I am Legend and the thing that struck me was the depiction of the grass growing up through the center of the city streets and the wild animals regaining their habitat in the city after a couple of years... Lets not overestimate our effect here on the plane and lets not underestimate the potential we all have as individuals and a group to begin to re balance ourselves and the damage being done.

Greed is just a mask of fear, a lack of abundance of spirit a hole in the soul that will never be filled from the outside. Its based on a feeling of being alone, separate and vulnerable and the childish idea that there is such a thing as security. Choice is always a better goal because that is within our ability to attain albeit sometimes at a sacrifice.

Busbert, I hear you! Simpler times!

[Kitsune]

Or, if you prefer haiku, (which as Kitsune, I must):

Summer grasses,
all that remains
of soldiers' dreams

Basho

[N1 Vibes]

Basil,

perhaps my point was not clear - if your neighbour was changing the wheel on his car, and he hadn't used a jack to raise the tyre off the ground, would you just sit and watch while the car fell on top of him? The west has learnt these lessons of safety/smog/pollution etc, why can't we share our knowledge with developing nations. After all the UK and US like to see themselves as the 'most developed' nations in the world, when in the pursuit of greed they have now become overdeveloped.

If anybody needs a real world perspective of priorities, try this. On my way to work a couple of weeks ago I witnessed the HKG police and fire department removing the body of the Philipina maid from DB who apparently 'drowned' after running out of her employers house in her night clothes one evening, her body wasn't found until 4 days later. Then to go into the office to have somebody rant and rave over something that was so unimportant, it was embarassing.

As volarecantare says, take a big step back, look at the world and decide what is really important for you/your family/neighbours/community/city/nation/world.

VC,

I'm right there with you on the ex-pat 'dream', as you say so many people seem to drop family and friends over the years, for this apparent 'idylic life' in HKG, very sad.

As for that conversation on a long haul sector, unfortuantely I'm not a flyer, I pilot a desk for a living.

On the media point, fully agree. 911 was about the 2nd step in opening my eyes to the fear inducing poison that is mainstream media. After having worked in an office where, due to our operational nature, we had CNN/BBC playing for 6 weeks after the event non-stop. I cannot watch the images of the twin-tower crash without feeling hollow inside - thats the psychological power of the media!

On the despair front, we all have the opportunity to help in small ways, and personally I hope that my next career step takes me somewhere with more ability to make a small difference. A positive outlook is good, some realistic navel gazing is also required.

Kitsune,

refer to reply to Basil - people don't actually have to die in order to make the world a better place.

Regards,

N1 Vibes

[Shep69]

N1 you make an excellent point. However, even in our "overdeveloped" countries we continue to make the mistakes of the past, and relearn the lessons of the past (even though these are well documented in our own history books). We've refused to acknowledge the very real opportunity costs of overregulation, and the inefficiencies of taxation and bureaucracies. None of this is new--Adam Smith wrote of this over 200 years ago. With no tangible evidence whatsoever, we're keen on establishing taxes and "carbon credits" scams (vice build new energy sources), lumping CO2 (which is actually "good" stuff) in with real pollutants (which are bad). Our oil spikes up; rather than building nuclear and renewable energy sources, we sue each other and chase our tails investigating "big oil." We haven't heeded the warning about voting moneys out of the public treasuries, see no alarm in spending in tremendous deficits, and have ignored Ben Franklin's essential liberties concept with self-paranoia. We can't even employ lessons learned from wars in our very recent past.

From the outside looking in, why should another country listen to us ?

[N1 Vibes]

Shep 69,

you are so right - the west are not the shining star example, which I hope my replies did highlight. But, the defensive, nationalistic, border driven mentality in the world today means, that as you so well point out, the beauraucracies are protected inside ivory towers - whiter than white - not wishing to share any knowledge/experience with developing countries whether it be good or bad, only wanting to take. Examples - US invasion of Iraq for oil, nothing real in return - China visits to developing Afriacn nations, again for oil. Your thoughts.

Regards,

N1 Vibes

[Shep69]

I think that if done properly, those who have gone down the path (if they could lay their agendas and finger pointing for failed policy aside) could contribute a great deal of valuable information. Acting in one's self interests isn't inherently bad--it drives and makes the market efficient in most situations. In some cases (national defense, pollution, asymmetric information, etc.) this doesn't work--the market fails somewhat. Pollution's an externality; the price of the thing made doesn't reflect the "bad" caused to others by the pollution--thus, there's economic justification for government involvement. This pollution has a very real long term cost to people's health and a country's economy (it's just convincing someone of this that's hard). Same as for safer working conditions--it's actually in the country's best interests to foster this (although they may not know this at present know this). China's industry is actually alot like the U.S. steel industry was early to mid 20th century.

Our problem in the U.S. is we regulate without bounds and rationality, and believe that if we write something down on paper it'll magically solve a problem or put electricity in the lines. This isn't true. I remember in college, when we'd look at regulating based on technology, we were keen to just throw out "solutions" not considering the opportunity costs. You reach a point of diminishing returns and dramatically increasing costs -- if reducing the last 10% of the soot costs 10,000 x more it isn't a good deal because you could use that money elsewhere for something much more important. This is why America hasn't built any new refineries in the last 30+ years--between the EPA and the litigation, it's not worth it. We have all kinds of coal and oil we can't burn (even though technology lets us burn it "clean enough") -- diesel's expensive here because our refineries are cutting back on the mandated low sulfur for U.S. consumption and cranking out the high sulfur, shipping it to Asia, and pocketing the $--how screwed up is that for an energy policy ? Our legislatures ban light bulbs vice build reactors (growth of our nuclear program was killed by the stroke of Jimmy Carter's pen, and we haven't had the fortitude to restart it despite needing the energy). We hold resources in reserve and let the dollar be used against us by those who don't.

I think we could pass along our knowledge (both the successes and the failures) and this is worthwhile--this level of polution control works--this much is too much (i.e. isn't worth it for the extra cost). Build a refinery over here (away from a watershed and people), and install x type of pollution control equipment, and keep the tanks above ground. This won't cost much more but will pay dividends in the long run. Consolodate your coal plants--this saves you money because it's more efficient. Put these neat scrubbers that'll pull out the NOx and SO2; not only will the air be clean, but you can get nitric and sulfuric acid to use in your industries from this process (thus having economic gain with less pollution which benefits everyone--win-win). This particular war can be won, but it might require the strategery of the late WT Sherman to accomplish--if you're not willing to do that, you might re-think starting the war. When you build your new breeder reactor, build it inherently safe (i.e. it shuts down when it begins to overheat), don't use liquid sodium, consider using the thorium cycle (vs. plutonium) and, unlike Chernobyl, install a decent containment system.

For anyone to listen, doing this requires an absolutely pragmatic (works/doesn't work), politics free analysis of things we've done in the western world, and a critical analysis of how and why they've succeeded or failed (divorced from how much we "wanted" them to succeed). It demands the messenger be someone of credibility, integrety and benevolence, free from agenda. Given our current culture of finger pointing and "is-is" here, politicians like this are hard to come by. But I think it possible that, with the right persons, an impact could be made in China and developing Asia not to make the same mistakes we did (and to use what has worked as well). It would have to be "their idea" of course :)

Cheers.

[Basil]

I think developing nations are aware of our techniques but do not wish to divert resources to using them.
"Come along now, you Chinese! Clean up that pollution from the Pearl River delta! It's irritating us in Hong Kong!" Oh it's real all right; I recollect slight breathing problems there - or perhaps it was the stuff we carried on the freighters.
Being one's brother's keeper is all very good but, if he wishes to sit downwind of his fire without a hard hat, then, well . . .

Good ideas on this thread but why don't the idiots who lead (insert country of choice) implement them? Fingers burnt in the past, political dogma, "You don't have the big picture." syndrome, too difficult, not invented here/by our party or just want to squander resources on a narrow group of political beneficiaries. Who knows?

[ACMS]

has anyone actually read all of the above posts?

TOO LONG GENTLEMEN.

[Kitsune]

ADD is such a distressing disorder in the relatively young.......:rolleyes:

[828a]

ACMS:

I've read them and it wouldn't hurt you to do the same. Too many " one liners " on these boards anyhow and shouting hardly contributes.

828a.

[Shep69]

I think why people/governments don't implement them (reasonable pollution controls, building energy resources, staying out of debt, regulating when appropriate but not overregulating, etc.) is primarily due to lack of foresight, the "it can't happen to me" syndrome, and the "get something for me and get out" philosophy. People lack foresight as well by allowing "leaders" who make pretty speeches full of empty promises get into any position of responsibility. We're going through this process right now. This is what makes history frustrating.

What individuals and states don't realize at the time is if their country goes down the development path like almost all before it, the bill will eventually come due. And it will involve everyone including them. The ounce of prevention will save many dollars of cure.

But it's easier to just point fingers......

[volarecantare]

Shep I think this is the direction things are moving albeit slowly. When the eco warriors cried out years ago people laughed at them as hippy lulas. Then slowly some companies began to see the necessity and potential benefits for them of "going green" the problem for many countries is that to recycle and create green policies which are successful it requires a substantial "back office" infrastructure. This requires a substantial amount of people to shift their mindsets into recycling, carbon footprint awareness etc in order to justify the investment. For example here in HK there have been in some quarters of the public and some recycling programs by the government so some communities have began recycling, it then transpired that the bins were all dumped into the usual generic pits infuriating the public. BUT its almost chicken and egg people need to be recycling in order to justify setting up the costly support and infrastructure to process the recycled rubbish. SO the leadership needs to come both ends. 1 from a shift in consciousness from the citizens and educational programs and 2 leadership by the Government and a joint effort to convince companies to provide the back up service and make it lucrative enough for them to do so. As caring for the environment becomes lucrative it will become more established. It will happen because as t has been said here, the cost in so many ways to ignoring these issues is biting us all on the bottom. CX will learn the same regarding their own abuses of staff. Things have a way of balancing out eventually.

ACSM, maybe you are more comfortable in the tabloids rather than the broadsheets.

[Captain TOGA]

There’s been a hysteria of doom and gloom lately over the state of the economy. While I believe the economy is very resilient and has weathered storms worse than the current situation, it’s only natural that we see upturns and downturns in the business cycle.
The 2008 outlook for SOA is bullish regardless of the economy, but priorities could shift


SOA, in its current incarnation, has only been around during a time of upward economic growth; what happens if things get rocky? Long Dong asks a good question (http://blog.soa-consortium.org/soa_consortium_insights/) that needs be asked in an environment where organizations may tightening budgets a little more than their usual degree of tightness:What does the ensuing (or on-going) economic downturn mean for SOA in 2008? Will the economic downturn and associated budget cutbacks drive organizations to, or away from, SOA in 2008?”Ultimately, economic conditions can drive or ditch organizational initiatives despite anyone’s best efforts. The state of the economy will shape both vendor messaging and SOA initiatives. The executives that make the decisions about SOA purchases and resources will be viewing those decisions through the lens of the economy. Those selling or advocating SOA would need to adjust their messages as well.
Brenda put the question of SOA and the economy to SOA Consortium members, and got some very interesting responses. Overall, most believed that SOA efforts will press on, especially if SOA is closely tied to business value. I like the way one industry practice leader put it: In a “downturn, people will have to be more creative, and will turn towards SOA.”
For those in organizations not inclined to encourage creativity, then keeping things close to the business as possible is the best bet for moving SOA forward. For example, as one of Brenda’s panelists point out, businesses will be looking to export markets for new growth. “Businesses will be looking at emerging and overseas markets to diversify and respond to the dollar bottoming out – manufacturing and portfolio investments. That type of business change is ripe for the development of a SOA approach.”
Another observed that regardless of overall economic conditions, businesses will still keep investing in new approaches, including social networking or Web 2.0 — and SOA is part of this. “Enterprises are beginning a rush to Web 2.0 and social networks, similar to the e-commerce rush. With the growth of Web 2.0/social networks (Google, Facebook, Yahoo!), enterprises, especially in consumer markets, will need to catch up. Both of these will result in the implementation of SOA. SOA is the backend.”
So the outlook for SOA for 2008 is quite bullish, no matter how rocky the economy gets. But still, the way SOA is sold to the organization and implemented may shift with the currents.
I also asked the question about SOA and the economy in a post (http://blogs.zdnet.com/service-oriented/?p=1000) back in November, and noted that SOA can be positioned to deliver in good times and bad.
If the economy were to soften, and IT budgets were reigned in even more than they are, it would mean major purchases would be forestalled or canceled. We saw this during the downturn of 2001, with pullbacks from CRM, supply chain management, and other major projects. This time around, if things got tight, companies would likely hold off on major middleware migrations, such as WebSphere, WebLogic, Netweaver, or Oracle Fusion. The impetus would go to open-source, commodity, or perhaps even in-the-cloud offerings.
The thrust of SOA in this kind of environment would need to emphasize cost-cutting and efficiency gained through reuse, sharing and standardized interfaces that cut systems integration time.
Overstretched IT staffs, of course, would not be receiving much additional help if there’s a hiring freeze in place. This could postpone SOA, since it will be all hands on deck just to keep things running, versus committing staff to major transformational efforts.
However, it could be argued that the availability of common, shareable services through SOA makes it less necessary to maintain redundant IT staffs across business units. Of course, in this kind of environment, SOA may also be employed as aeuphemism for “downsizing, (http://blogs.zdnet.com/service-oriented/?p=952)” just as business process re-engineering developed a bad name in times past.
So the jury’s out on what impact SOA will have, or if it will be impacted. And for that matter, the jury’s still out on what this year’s economy will bring. But it’s always a good thing to keep projects focused on the business.

[Shep69]

I think there's opportunity to be had in our economic times (and don't look toward the future with doom and gloom); however, at least in the U.S. we are making some very fundamental financial mistakes (which I wouldn't feel comfortable making in my own home, much less a nation). We're carrying huge amounts of national as well as private debt without concern, propping up the economy by blowing paper money into it (hence the dollar situation). At the same time we face dramatically increasing energy costs (which are inflationary) with no plan for the future save words, and lack the industrial production of the 70's. Medical care is a substantial issue; we have all these plans by politicos with absoultely no plan for paying for it. We bog down our development with special interests--it took 4 years to win WWII and now takes more than 20 to simply build a new runway ?

The resources and people are still here so we do have an economic future; I'd just rather we not have to keep getting hit on the head with a brick before we do something to lead turn and improve our lot.

I guess we can derive solace in those timeless words: "You'll be fine..."

Cheers

[Captain TOGA]

The rationality of financial markets has been one of the most hotly contested issues in the
history of modern financial economics. Recent critics of the Efficient Markets Hypothesis ar-
gue that investors are generally irrational, exhibiting a number of predictable and financially
ruinous biases such as overconfidence (Fischoff and Slovic, 1980; Barber and Odean, 2001;
Gervais and Odean, 2001), overreaction (DeBondt and Thaler, 1986), loss aversion (Kah-
neman and Tversky, 1979; Shefrin and Statman, 1985; Odean, 1998), herding (Huberman
and Regev, 2001), psychological accounting (Tversky and Kahneman, 1981), miscalibration
of probabilities (Lichtenstein, Fischoff, and Phillips, 1982), and regret (Bell, 1982; Clarke,
Krase, and Statman, 1994). The sources of these irrationalities are often attributed to
psychological factors—fear, greed, and other emotional responses to price fluctuations and
dramatic changes in an investor’s wealth. In response to the mounting evidence of departures
from market efficiency, a growing number of economists, psychologists, and financial-industry
professionals have begun to use the terms “behavioral economics” and “behavioral finance”
to differentiate themselves from the standard orthodoxy.
However, recent research in the cognitive sciences and financial economics suggest an im-
portant link between rationality in decisionmaking and emotion (Grossberg and Gutowski,
1987; Damasio, 1994; Elster, 1998; Lo, 1999; Loewenstein, 2000; Peters and Slovic, 2000),
implying that the two notions are not antithetical, but in fact complementary. For exam-
ple, in a pilot study of 10 professional securities traders during live trading sessions, Lo
and Repin (2002) present psychophysiological evidence that even the most seasoned trader
exhibits significant emotional response—as measured by elevated levels of skin conductance
and cardiovascular variables—during certain transient market events such as increased price
volatility or intra-day breaks in trend. In a series of case studies, Steenbarger (2002) also
presents evidence linking emotion with trading performance.

[N1 Vibes]

Captain TOGA,

a good point, borne out by the behaviour of the HKG stock market - driven by the hope/fears of the investors and traders. With an extremely hyped media, it only takes Stanley Ho to have a bad bowel movement reported in the newspapers to put the market into a flat-spin.

VC/Shep 69,

a 2 sided approach to encouraging concerns/action on the environment, but why does the state have to make the running? Is it because in mass society that individuals are so 'molly-coddled' that they need th state to tell them whats happening right in front of their eyes?

Some reading of Carl Gustav Jungs thoughts on the behaviour of an individual in todays mass society/state control and even under religious dogma might enlighten us to the reasons for individual behaviour today. And may also hold clues to the behaviour of investors and market traders as described by Captain TOGA.

Mass minded behaviour, that is manipulated by state/democratic/religious dogma, has very much eroded individual thinking/behaviour.

(CG Jung - The Undiscovered Self - interesting reading)

ACMS,

http://www.mirror.co.uk/
http://www.thesun.co.uk/
http://www.maximonline.com/
http://www.parishilton.com/

Regards,

N1 Vibes

[Captain TOGA]

In an effort to raise awareness about menstrual suppression and initiate dialogue among women’s health practitioners and scholars of the menstrual cycle, a panel was recently delivered on June 6th, 2003 at the 15th Biennial Meeting of the Society for Menstrual Cycle Research in Pittsburgh, PA. The panel consisted of three papers, addressing menstrual suppression from multiple perspectives.

Authors of the first paper, Christine Hitchcock and Jerilyn Prior, reviewed studies that have been published on extending the schedule of oral contraceptive pills in order to reduce the frequency of menstrual bleeding. They concluded that we do not yet have evidence to suggest that menstrual suppression is entirely safe and reversible. The second set of authors, Alex Hoyt and Linda Andrist presented results from a study of women’s attitudes toward menstrual suppression. They concluded that negative attitudes toward the menstrual cycle were a better predictor of women’s interest in menstrual suppression than women’s menstrual symptoms, suggesting the importance of psychosocial factors in women’s decision making about altering their menstruation. The third paper, by Ingrid Johnston-Robledo and Jessica Barnack, addressed popular media coverage of menstrual suppression. From their analysis of print media, they concluded that regular menstruation is presented as bothersome and even unhealthy. Advocates of menstrual suppression and its benefits were afforded more space than opponents and risks. As with many other health issues, women are not getting accurate, balanced information, rendering an informed decision about this health care option difficult if not impossible.

The notion that monthly menstruation is no longer considered a necessary, healthy process, particularly for women who experience endometriosis and severe PMS, was popularized after the publication of the book, Is Menstruation Obsolete by Elsimar Coutinho and Sheldon Segal in 1999. Women can essentially avoid or suppress frequent menstruation by taking a standard oral contraceptive continuously without the 7-day placebo pills. The typical recommendation is that women take this regimen of pills for three months and then experience a pill-free week such that they menstruate every three months. Another birth control pill, Seasonale, is specifically designed to suppress menstruation, although it is not yet approved by the FDA. Women using this oral contraceptive will be on a schedule of active pills for 84 days and then take placebo pills for 7 days. Menstrual suppression was originally recommended for women with disorders related to the menstrual cycle such as endometriosis, but is now being recommended to and practiced by women without such disorders.

Members of the Society for Menstrual Cycle Research have a range of opinions about this complicated and controversial issue. What we do
agree on, however, is that:

1) More research is needed before women can make informed decisions.
Women and health care providers need to know more about the reasons why people choose menstrual suppression, and the medical consequences of making that choice. We need psychosocial research looking at women's attitudes, concerns, preferences, and needs for information. We need well-designed, randomized, placebo-controlled trials of long-term oral contraceptive use for menstrual suppression, examining women’s experiences, bone health, and risks for blood clots and strokes. These studies should include women who are not taking any oral contraceptives, and not just compare women on different schedules of active pills. We also need studies to assess the recovery of fertility following discontinuation.

2) While we recognize that menstrual suppression may be a useful option for women with severe menstrual cycle problems such as endometriosis, we do not believe that continuous oral contraceptive use should be prescribed to all menstruating women out of a rejection of a normal, healthy menstrual cycle. We are particularly concerned about the potential effects of extended oral contraceptive use on adolescents, given their vulnerability during development and the absence of data regarding the safety of this practice for this age group.

[N1 Vibes]

Captain TOGA

where are you going with this line of discussion? The suppression of natural menstruation affecting judgement?

Jizzmonkey

why the sudden interest in supporting women. Your other thread here doesn't quite show you in the same 'supporting' light.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?p=3679456#post3679456

OR - did you cut and paste the article from here:

http://womenshealth.about.com/od/gynecologicalhealthissues/a/gyn101.htm

Enlighten us gents.

Regards,

N1 Vibes

[ACMS]

828..............your kidding me right?

Don't you think I have enough to read without going over these 1000 word mumbo jumbo replies.

Nope.............MAKE IT SHORT AND TO THE POINT.

[N1 Vibes]

ACMS

there is an affliction that comes very fast on the heels of greed, thats thinking about oneself all the time.

Sorry I had to use some words with more than one syllable, perhaps I'll find a picture next time. Maybe this fat, self-centred, statesman will help you visualise:

http://www.lifegoggles.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/johnprescott1_sm.jpg

Regards,

N1 Vibes

[ACMS]

oh grow up mate.

It's a well known fact the more long passages you write in here the less people actually read it. They fall asleep after line 3.
Just like FCOM 1:ugh::{

I am trying to help you actually get people to READ the stuff.

Nice picture of the x British Deputy PM? right?

[828a]

ACMS:

I honestly believe it's time for you to be take out and left on the ice. The Eskimos have known from the very begining that if you can't contribute then you are not needed. ( and stop that shouting, you are the only one doing it. )

828a.

[ACMS]

shouting.................

I put FCOM in capitals,,,,,,,,,,,,so what

get a life 828.

Then shorten the passages

[Captain TOGA]

The reliability of short versus long passages in informal reading inventories was compared. After 132 pilots were tested with the Standard Reading Inventory, Form B, they read longer passages in either the oral or silent modes. Pilots with higher silent reading scores read long passages orally, while pilots with higher oral reading scores or comparable oral/silent reading scores read long passages in the silent mode. The results suggested that the 70% criterion normally used with short passages inadequately predicted reading levels for the longer selections. The increased difficulty of long passages was evident by the marked decreases in comprehension scores. Pilots with better comprehension scores in either the short-silent or short-oral modes appeared to be frustrated by the longer reading materials. The pilots with comparable oral/silent reading levels in the short passages showed significantly different scores on the long passages, suggesting that the increased difficulty of long passages inhibited their comprehension considerably. Since the long passages appeared to be more difficult than short passages at the same levels, it was suggested that the trend toward using more lenient interpretation criteria in informal reading inventories might be based on false assumptions.

[ACMS]

suggesting that the increased difficulty of long passages inhibited their comprehension considerably.

thankyou...............

[Kitsune]

How many were Australian....? :ouch:

[N1 Vibes]

CaptainTOGA,

could you clarify the point you were making in the post refernce women and the contraceptive pill? Thanks.

ACMS,

In the case of the FCOM, your life/others lives depend on it.

In the case of this thread - you are either interested enough to read the long passages or you are not.

Your choice.

Regards,

N1 Vibes

PS - Yes you are correct, that was a picture of "Two Jag's" Prescott. The man famous for freight-training the UK's M4 motorway red-route. He was trying to improve the environment - but forgot the fact that as Minister for Transport, before the deputy leader position, he had 2 x 4 litre jags to haul his fat @ss and his paperwork around, and the secretary that he banged over his parliamentary desk, lucky girl!

[ACMS]

I'm sure what you wrote was correct and totally factual. However an old Airforce boss of mine once said KISS. keep it simple stupid.

Straight and to the point is much better than a 2000 word essay that will put me to sleep half way through. I'm not a lawyer.

Anyway enough said.....................

[N1 Vibes]

ACMS

so I see you have moved to pastures green(d). Judging by your reply to EK giving a 25% payrise thread, you very much are in the game of life for yourself.

Hopefully this thread may return to the original discussion of Defining Greed.

Regards

N1 Vibes

[fire wall]

Ah yes Kitsune, the antipodeans are such a motley swill.
A dose of the Mother Country's culture would add meaning to their miserable existence's. Why not export a dose of good old fashion English soccer hooliganism, or perhaps some of their so called political elite could use the advice of the up and comming neo nazi movement. And where is a southern hemispherical version of Le Penn when the downtrodden need a good kicking?

Thank your lucky stars the travelling public have no idea of the moronic attitudes that inhabit foward of the flight deck door. Electronic locks serve two purposes!

Apologies to you Vibes - but this could not go unanswered.

[828a]

In spite of himself there exists a certain type of expatriate who never adjusts to life in Hong Kong. He imagines physical discomforts when all he is suffering from is the mental vexation of having to think along new and unaccustomed lines and he is forever counting the days until his leave is due and he will be able to go back home. Even though he is an adult he suffers the delusions of a homesick child. The food at home was better, the people at home were superior, it was more comfortable at home, there were greater opportunities and the streets were wider and cleaner. He often thinks of trying to find employment elsewhere. His delusions are very real.
However with each home leave his point of view changes. The visits home are seldom as pleasurable as anticipated. Old friends have interests that are no longer his and conversations are soon exhausted. Relatives die or get married and he is shocked to discover that he has more friends in Hong Kong than he has at home. However his delusions remain.
If he buys or builds a home in his native land he is more likely to give it a Chinese name even though he spent most of his life expressing contempt for everything Chinese. Retired he meets with other expatriates at irregular intervals supposedly to hear some speaker discourse on matters Eastern but he only really attends to meet others of his ilk and to talk about things only the old Hong Kong hand understands.
He has been blessed with memories, knowledge and worth which he did not morally deserve but he accepts them as his right. A right that is nothing more than the embodiment of behavioural greed.

828a

[ACMS]

Game of life for myself?
What are you smoking my mis-guided friend?

I want US ALL to get a payrise, if EK get one then maybe we might too:)

You must be questioning my loyalty to my fellow Pilot's, are you?


I, more than a lot, have stood shoulder to shoulder with my fellow airmen during some very testing times in 25 years and I'm still here.


An AOA member for 15 years and AFAP before that for 10.

YOU?

[N1 Vibes]

828a

a very interesting view of the psychological development of the expat. Developing one's own thoughts and memories in their new location, to leave other thoughts and memories of ones original existence in the distant past. Almost as if one invents a new life in their new location. Isn't that why many people move to a new location, for a 'new life'?

Captain TOGA

the communist model of central/shared ownership was previously and today for a lot of people, the perfect model of an equal and peaceful society. But, unfortunately the behaviour of certain individuals in the state system cannot resist the 'power of position', either abusing people or embezzling accounts etc. As always state legislation is very much biased to benefit the state, not the individual.

ACMS

you have just revealed what was becoming quite clear. You are a member of a union that 'represent's' X thousand pilots, in a company of Y thousand people. Your loyalty to the X thousand strong pilots union is not in question, what would have shown your humanist side a lot better, was if you as an individual were looking for an equal payrise for the whole company - the Y thousand people, not just your own group.

I refer you back to my post regarding individuals in mass society/organisations and how ones behaviour can be 'restricted' by dogma. You can read more here:

http://andrewblackman.wordpress.com/2008/02/27/the-undiscovered-self-by-carl-jung/

Regards,

N1 Vibes

PS - your membership of a union for 25 years, what was that meant to demonstrate? I have been a 'member' of the human race all my life, I don't have to pay money, vote in elections or carry a card to show my loyalty. An organised group is very much a small part of a far bigger picture - the human race.

I feel much happier as an individual in the human race, which isn't based on dogma but on nature, than I would in a much smaller group based on brotherhood/fear/dogma. Note - the group could also be a religion, state, the rufty-tufty safety club - anything.

You only have to look at the PPrune forums to see how people in 'organised groups' behave towards people 'not in the organised group', it is used almost as a threat. Going back to the school playground - my gang's bigger than your gang/you're not in my gang - therefore that persons view is not validated by X thousand people or should that person have a view against the dogma - X thousand people will be against them.

Just accept that individual people are entitled to their view, rather than bringing out a "you're not one of us mentality" - you are an individual right?

[Dragon69]

828a,

If Hong Kong is such a great place then why doesn't anyone actually retire here??? Why are the bases in Europe, Australia, New Zealand, North America completely full???? Is everyone being delusional or is it because Hong Kong will never be home! This is a fact of life for the majority of expatriates and has nothing to do with behavioural greed.

Agreeably Hong Kong is a great place for a newcomer, the city is vibrant, full of enerygy and a night life second to none. However Hong Kong can and does become rather routine and mundane. After several years here you quickly realize that it lacks substance, with the worsening air pollution not helping matters.


The food at home was better, the people at home were superior, it was more comfortable at home, there were greater opportunities and the streets were wider and cleaner.


In the opinion of many, yes to all of the above!

However with each home leave his point of view changes. The visits home are seldom as pleasurable as anticipated.

If that has been your experience doesn't mean it applies to everyone else. I've been on four temp basings to date and each has been more pleasurable than the previous.


If he buys or builds a home in his native land he is more likely to give it a Chinese name even though he spent most of his life expressing contempt for everything Chinese.


WTF???

I suspect that you feel special because you have taken a keen fondness to Hong Kong, if that is the case all the more power to you, but don't criticize others for not adjusting to Hong Kong. Home is where the heart is!

[ACMS]

You are a member of a union that 'represent's' X thousand pilots, in a company of Y thousand people. Your loyalty to the X thousand strong pilots union is not in question, what would have shown your humanist side a lot better, was if you as an individual were looking for an equal payrise for the whole company - the Y thousand people, not just your own group.

828a, YOU are the problem we have in CX.
why aren't you in OUR union? you're obviously not from what you say.
The AOA has negotiated quite a few improvements to the Pilots contracts, and yes that means ALL PILOTS IN CX.

So how dare you imply that I'm ( and the AOA ) only interested in improving the COS of AOA members only. TOTAL BULLOCKS. And something that a person like you ( selfish, one for all and all for me ) does.

Standing by for your next pieces of BS.

[N1 Vibes]

828a, YOU are the problem we have in CX.
why aren't you in OUR union? you're obviously not from what you say.
The AOA has negotiated quite a few improvements to the Pilots contracts, and yes that means ALL PILOTS IN CX.

So how dare you imply that I'm ( and the AOA ) only interested in improving the COS of AOA members only. TOTAL BULLOCKS. And something that a person like you ( selfish, one for all and all for me ) does.

Standing by for your next pieces of BS.

ACMS,

bless you - you really aren't reading these posts fully - or - with an open mind are you? You have quoted my post not 828a's. Perhaps if you re-read my post you will see that the Y thousand people I am talking about, are actually all the 17,000 plus employees in CX - you know the ones that appear in the cockpit to feed you and listen to your cheap jokes, tell you where you are flying, what the weather will be like, put the food on board, put the SLF on the plane, put the fuel in the plane, kick the tyres, sell the tickets to the SLF, make your uniform, wash the skidmarks in your uniform, book your hotel, give you your expenses, arrange your housing, medical etc, etc - not just you drinking buddies that sit at the pointy end of the big metal flying thing!

And you're use of aggression above - confirms the attitude of a number of people in organised groups, as mentioned in my post:

see how people in 'organised groups' behave towards people 'not in the organised group', it is used almost as a threat. Going back to the school playground - my gang's bigger than your gang/you're not in my gang - therefore that persons view is not validated

If you further re-read my post - I like to think I am an individual, because if I was like everybody else, or everybody else was like you - what kind of world would it be? Well - there'd be a lot of pilots in Hong Kong - wouldn't there? As for being for myself - the only group I like to think I belong to is the human-race, there is no group bigger than that, is there? But I wouldn't use it as an idle threat like you:

YOU are the problem we have in CX.
why aren't you in OUR union?

So, after the nurse has been round to give you your bed-bath, and tucked you in with your bottle of San Miguel. Perhaps you could open your eyes and look around you, rather than having such a narrow view on the world.

Bless you ACMS, you are what makes discussions about human behaviour AND greed such fun! Please keep posting these gems.

Regards,

N1 Vibes

PS - do I have to say this again - re-read my posts - I'M NOT A PILOT.

[N1 Vibes]

828a, Captain TOGA,

I too will get back to you gent's soon. I'm just rushing out to join the AOA so that ACMS will love me a bit more!

Regards,

N1 Vibes

[ACMS]

I just went over the posts again.

you wrote you have just revealed what was becoming quite clear. You are a member of a union that 'represent's' X thousand pilots, in a company of Y thousand people. Your loyalty to the X thousand strong pilots union is not in question, what would have shown your humanist side a lot better, was if you as an individual were looking for an equal payrise for the whole company - the Y thousand people, not just your own group.

As I thought you were actaully a real Pilot and not just a jealous wannabee, I thought you were referring to the whole Pilot group ( 2,500 )and not the whole company.( 17,000 )
The others in this big company have their own Unions.
What pay rises have they had in the last 8 years then?

CX treat their whole workforce as an expendable number.

[Dragon69]

N1 Vibes,

In ACMSs defence it's a bit hypocritical of you to join a pilot's forum where the dominant topic is industrial and union matters and then post;


you have just revealed what was becoming quite clear. You are a member of a union that 'represent's' X thousand pilots, in a company of Y thousand people. Your loyalty to the X thousand strong pilots union is not in question, what would have shown your humanist side a lot better, was if you as an individual were looking for an equal payrise for the whole company - the Y thousand people, not just your own group.

This isn't really a forum about the meaning of life and everything that accompanies it. Granted everyone plays their part in an airline, but be careful about being a non pilot joining a pilot's forum and then berating someone on the forum because of their opinion that is solely an issue amongst airline pilots. In fact if you "belong to the human race" as you so elequently put it, why are you wasting your time on this forum?? You really should be helping the poor and needy on your spare time.

[N1 Vibes]

Dragon69

- the title of this thread is "Defining Greed" - here's the first post just to remind you:

"All else, valour, a good name, glory, everything in heaven and earth is secondary to the charm of riches". Horace.

Written 2000 years ago by the Roman philosopher Quintus Horace and could easily have been penned yesterday. Nothing has changed.

- pilots - are not mentioned until post 13, page 1, even then it was somebody moaning about the spelling and they used the less common description - "flight deck crew"

- unions - didn't get mentioned until post 81, page 5 - this must be a record for Fragrant Harbour. The unions AOA and AFAP were quoted.

If you really only joined pprune to talk about pilots and unions, then I suggest this thread is not for you - or did the thread title Defining Greed make you think it was a thread about pilots and unions?

As you put it so well - Pprune is actually mostly about AVIATION.

Regards,

N1 Vibes

PS - the reason I'm here? There appear to be quite a number of cases of consumerism, nimbyism, head-in-the-sand and self-delusion hereabouts.

[ACMS]

you still haven't told us how many payrises the "other" staff at CX have received in the last 8 years?
Not to mention the nice little bits and pieces NR and the other chaps up there gave themselves.

[N1 Vibes]

ACMS

I say - what a lot of chest beating. Perhaps now that you have realised that I'm not a pilot, never have been a pilot, never wanted a career as a pilot and have never come onto the flight deck to tell a pilot what to do - that I'm most definitely not jealous of you.(glad you can now be bothered to read the boring old threads)

And that when talking in my posts about all employed at CX, that strangely it also means the people outside the pilot community.(well spotted, I'll use bigger letters, or bits of lego for you)

Nowhere in this thread has anyone actually told you, or anybody else how they should do their job. We are all professionals here, and peoples lives depend on the work that we do.(if you can prove this then I am willing to apologise - over to you)

Just to pick up on the fact you mentioned earlier about the AOA working for all pilots at CX. Because, it's a good job you left the AFAP - they only look after their own:

The role we have as a trade union is to protect and improve the conditions of employment for its members.

(Source AFAP Website)(by the way shouldn't that be our members?)

I'm sure it was a concious decision by you to join the AOA, who you say works for all pilots in CX (couldn't find a manifesto for the AOA, so have to take your undisputable word for it), even non memebrs. As you personally are so concerned for everybody in the pilot community - even the non-members - to quote you in post 86:

828a, YOU are the problem we have in CX.
why aren't you in OUR union? you're obviously not from what you say.

You say it in such a warm and welcoming way. I'm sure 828a is glad you're backing the AOA's free of charge negotiations for him.

Is it correct that anything that is negotiated by the AOA and is adopted by CX, is passed on to the whole pilot community by CX?

As for my obvious jealousy of you - you know whenever people ask me locally who I work for and I say CX - the first question they always ask if I'm a pilot - and do you know when I tell them that I am not a pilot - their attitude seems to almost change when I say it. Why is that? I personally can't answer because I'm too polite to ask them, oh and did I mention I'm not a pilot enought times before? Maybe ACMS you have had the opposite experience, tell me, how do people in Hong Kong react when you in particular tell them you are a pilot - I'm guesing they must be green with envy? Especially when you tell them that everybody else is jealous of you.(or is that only in your mind?)

Regards,

N1 Vibes

[Dead Head]

This has got 2 be the most boring thread ever.

[Dragon69]

N1 Vibes,

I was starting to suspect that you resent pilots for one reason or another and then a previous post by you made it all too clear!


As an engineer I often enjoy the discussions here


At least one thing will not change since the dawn of aviation, the mutual feeling between pilots and engineers :}

Dead Head quite right! This thread should have been put to sleep "no pun intended" a long time ago.

[Hiro Nakimura]

Since we have some obtuse and off the wall conversation on this thread I thought I would add my penny's worth.

I imagine if Jane Austen were alive today and if she should read this thread she would write a book called 'Pride and Prejudice'. Seems like human frailty hasn't changed so much over time.

You cannot truly know someone until you have walked a mile in their shoes. Since N1 Vibes hasn't been a pilot and since ACMS et al haven't been professional engineers I think it a little prejudicial to be throwing insults around based on your own fears and misconceptions.

I do like hearing opinions from my non pilot friends; my pilot friends only tell me what I already know. Through my non-pilot friends I have come to accept I have one of the best jobs on the planet...I think Mark Wahlberg in the movie "Rock Star" had the best job;-) That is not to say that the job is perfect and could not be improved. But I have learnt that I should be grateful for my job and not denigrate others about their jobs. And I have long given up trying to glorify how hard it can be. No Lawyer or Barrister can justify to me how they can charge $1,000s per hour for their jobs - its not the work you are paid for but the experience that comes with it.

I better stop now or else I will lose ACMS's interest! ;-)

FWIW, not only have I seen movies on flying, read books on flying, but I even know what a Canard is and I am a member of the subsidiary to the AA, the AOA!

[ACMS]

Just had to say 1 more thing.

YES, whatever the AOA negaotiate goes to ALL Pilots

That's one reason we are annoyed at those Pilots HANGING off OUR coat tails for free.

[828a]

N1 Vibes:
Sometimes, and retirement comes to mind a new life in a new location becomes necessary due to circumstances dictated by common sense. This thing called common sense is not a product of the heart which means it should always be listened to. I agree that if one moves to a new location then it's the beginning of something untried which makes it all the more interesting.
All the best

828a

Dragon 69:
Your inference that I have a "keen fondness" for Hong Kong is perfectly correct. It's something that crept up on me during many happy years flying Cathay's heavy metal. Hong Kong is a vibrant city of life and energy and it makes memories that are to be cherished. How could one not fall in love with the Harbour, Star Ferry, morning coffee in the Pen, reading the SCMP, strolling around the peak, exploring Plover Cove and Tai Mei Tuk, the outlying islands, the lunchtime fashion parade in Central, public transport everywhere, the peak tram, Swindons etc etc Do I have to continue the list is endless.
Why the bases are full is because the "Base fillers" are nothing more than childhood home seekers who take the easy way out as the other thing is too daunting. I call them "flatlanders" and they live their lives in the foothills. You may care to reflect on something that Plutarch said: "The measure of a man's life is the well spending of it and not the length". All the best.
828a

ACMS:
You really are a worry. If you must be rude to N1 Vibes so as to garnish your ego and feelings of "pilots only please" then I suggest you deal with me. I've had a little expereince with people like you. You would not dare to have raised your voice on my flight deck.

828a

P.S.
Captain TOGA: I will be with you shortly.
Hiro Nakimura: Welcome, some new blood is needed.

[Dragon69]

828a,


Why the bases are full is because the "Base fillers" are nothing more than childhood home seekers who take the easy way out as the other thing is too daunting. I call them "flatlanders" and they live their lives in the foothills


Interesting to say the least! So let me sum up your attitude, because I love Hong Kong then everyone else has to as well! I wonder if Plutarch was as narrow minded as you.

[N1 Vibes]

Dragon 69

finally - the nub arises. I am glad to say that myself and colleagues throughout the industry are performing tasks and making decisions that, with respect, keep both the pax and your good selves in the pilot community safe everyday. I've lived and worked knowing that responsibility for the safety of others lives, since I first worked in aviation at 16 years old. I am not the sort of person who broadcasts this responsibility around, mostly you will find many engineers keeping it to themselves.

When you were 16 years old, did you perform anything that affected the lives of hundreds of people and accept the responsibility for it?

I also acknowledge that their are hundreds of other roles in this industry and other industries that also take this and hihger responsibility, quite often for less reward (thats respect and financial), and I hope that I respect the pressure that it brings.

Regards,

N1 Vibes

[Dragon69]

N1 Vibes,

I hope you didn't think that I was disrespecting or belittling your carreer as an engineer. I don't believe I ever implied that. Your job is no less and no more important than mine, but pilots and engineers have always had a love and hate relationship, it's just the way it is. Unlike ATY I don't put myself on a pedestal because I am a pilot, and nor should you because you happen to be an engineer (not that you ever implied it). In reality we are all capable of achieving anything we want, be it a doctor, engineer, pilot, etc.

My initial post was about you berating another pilot for posting his opinions on a PILOT's forum.

[828a]

Captain TOGA:
You asked "What kind of a man was Chiang Kai Shek"? I know something about him and I consider him as an egoistical traitor and a man of greed (which is what we are discussing) . He was a traitor because he failed at a critical time to oppose the Japanese and his greed shows up in the gold bullion and antique treasures he stole from China when he fled to Formosa (Taiwan). There was only one thing good about Chiang Kai Shek and that was his beautiful, svelte English speaking Wellesey College educated wife Soong Mei Ling. Without her he would have been nothing and why she stayed with him through thick and thin is a question that the most knowledgeable of scholars can't answer.
Your summary of events is perfectly correct but it does not take into account the land distribution effect because it was this that induced the peasants to defect to Mao Tze-tung in their millions and thus bring about the defeat of Chiang Kai Shek. ..... Your thoughts.....All the best.

828a

[missingblade]

So.....back to greed:

From this website: http://www.geocities.com/athens/atlantis/4124/money.html

"Money is an unnatural substance that makes you feel good if it's supplied in high quantities. It changes the habits of humans.
In a sort, money became the new global god to be worshipped.


The most interesting feature of money is financial gravity:
Every unit of money has its own financial gravity.
The field of financial gravity gets stronger when more units of money combine.
Larger bodies of money have stronger forces to attract more money.It works like the solar system:
A stable system evolved from individual units of matter controlled by the gravity of a central large object.
Money will take the same way, the central largest pool of money could be the world government controlling a planetary system of large enterprises through the force of financial gravity. All minute or uncontrollable bodies of money will inevitably end up in a larger body. This is a typical monetary system for wealth creation.

It means, the amount of money common people hold will be more and more insignificant - making it easier for commerce to enslave people. "

And that includes PILOTS AND ENGINEERS:ok:

[volarecantare]

Acms,

who you are shouts so load its difficult sometimes to hear what you are trying to say.

N1 it appears the issues with this site is its misleading title, Professional Pilots Rumour...the word professional here seems to be misleading.

Your posts have been thoughtful and illuminating and many have enjoyed reading them. A refreshing break from some of the whinging and mud slinging that seems to go on here.

This thread was an enjoyable discussion that was sabotaged by some ahem angry misoninists who happen to be pilots and whew hew members of the AOA. It would be unfortunate if all pilots and AOA members are judged based on these few eggs.

I wonder what is the role of the internet in many a lonely pilot's life? I wonder what indeed their wives, girlfriends, kids would say about it? It seems to be a common phrase.. "then he comes home from work and sits at the computer all night" It maybe that this "virtual" of the internet has become an addictive pattern for many of our colleagues and for others it seems to be some for of reaching out and communicating sharing ideas etc.

Some of what is projected on these sites offer a fascinating insight into the anger and lonliness of many.

For one I hope you N1 etc remain here contributing your thoughs and ideas and those who don't like it can lump off onto the tabloid threads of which there are many.

[Dragon69]

volarecantare,

Would you rather have the whinging and mud slinging in the cockpit?? The fact that the majority are civil and proffesional towards each other in the cokpit is indicative of our proffesionalism. If there is a bit of mud slinging on an anonymous forum, well big fu:mad:g deal! Are you really that sensitive?

The other great thing about an anonymous forum is that you can post here pretending to walk the moral high ground, as you often do, and pretend that your existence is much more valuable and exciting than the rest, but the reality might be quite contrary, only you know!

[volarecantare]

Well that obviously hit a nerve there. Maybe it was the part you didn't refer to.

You say the Majority of pilots are professional and gentlemanly in the cockpit, maybe that is true so could it be that the minority who are not are the ones slithering venom on the website as well? You could be right!

Seems to me that if such resentment and anger exists that it at best it is only being thinly disguised in the cockpit and out.

Are you suggesting that this site plays the sacred role of allowing the minority of unprofessional pilots to vent rage bitterness and sometimes unsolicited attack so that they are free to transform into gentlemen in the cockpit? For that sort of anger management maybe a councilor would be a better investment in time.

As to my sensitivity yes I do feel concerned about some of the attacks that happen on this forum to often known individuals who are unlucky enough to be involved in incidents and to anyone who tries to have a discussion beyond the limits of those low minded attacks whinging and whining. Where you get the leap from that to the strange suggestion that I feel more valuable or what was it.... exiting than you well, only you know the answer to that..

So let see, being positive or happy now is a crime on this site too and its true Raison d'etre is a spittoon basin for otherwise "professional" pilots to offload venom so they can try to be professional in the cockpit. Mudslinging is also acceptable to you on an anonymous forum? Interesting theory Dragon.

Lets hope the day never comes when you have a bad day at work that you and your family feel its ok to have mud slung at you here. I do not- and if you were honest, nor do you.
Thanks for the heads up.

[missingblade]

This thread was titled " Greed "

Are all of your attention spans so limited that you can't even stick to the subject? Enough already with the thread drift. Take your arguments about who is more unprofessional elsewhere. You are spoiling the one thread that was a bit of fun.

You guys are just way too easy to bait. Must be a sign of your castration by the company that you have to come over here and try and prove your manhood through pointless arguments we have all heard a thousand times.

[Dragon69]

Ok once you ladies have finished your philosophical discussion and finished exchanging cooking recipes, maybe we can then get back to some pertinent issues. :ugh:

[N1 Vibes]

dragon69

just to pick up on the points referring to non-pilots reading the threads on pprune. The reason most engineers come to pprune is to read the Tech Log and Technicians/Engineers sections, and there is always a good amount of sensible, interesting and intelligent conversation going on in there. Then I come to read the FH forum to see what makes CX pilots tick and there's enough here to give an idea. Though a generalisation is not as good as individual cases, there seem to be A LOT of money related issues discussed. Not so many about other aspects of CX/KA life.

Is this related to greed? I think - YES. Therfore a thread related to greed is very valid here. What is it they say about the truth - it hurts right?

Regards,

N1 Vibes

[simplex]

proffesional towards each other in the cokpit is indicative of our proffesionalism

God help us. Being a Cathay Pilot a profession?

[Busbert]

just to pick up on the points referring to non-pilots reading the threads on pprune. The reason most engineers come to pprune is to read the Tech Log and Technicians/Engineers sections, and there is always a good amount of sensible, interesting and intelligent conversation going on in there. Then I come to read the FH forum to see what makes CX pilots tick and there's enough here to give an idea. Though a generalisation is not as good as individual cases, there seem to be A LOT of money related issues discussed. Not so many about other aspects of CX/KA life.

Is this related to greed? I think - YES. Therfore a thread related to greed is very valid here. What is it they say about the truth - it hurts right?

N1 Vibes,
you have certainly found your mark. Burn them all that's what I say :ok: