implication of 3 man ULH?

[NewEssO]

with Oasis gone, i think it's going to be inevitable that 3man ULH gets introduced sooner rather than later.

What do you guys anticipate the implication to be for 3man ULH?

i'm guessing either the FO or the SO will take the roughest hit, as I don't think we can compromise the Captain too much.

How do you guys feel about roster changes, and upgrade changes?

i think we'll see a lot of zombies walking around :sad:

[Humber10]

Air NZ fly up to LHR with a 3 man crew. But the rest is split evenly and they have more days off in LHR than what CX currently do... There shouldnt be any reason why rest is not to be split evenly.... As long as there is adequate time to rest at destination, it shouldnt be such a problem, only that we will be spending longer away from home. Or will it be 3 man ULR, split duty...:} So we will have to watch this space and see what happens, you are correct about the zombies, only this time they will be flying...:eek:

Myself, I'm for 4 man crew everywhere

[whodunnit2]

Unless it is preceded by a hefty payrise I think it will just encourage those on the edge of leaving to actually go. Even with more cash I think it will convince a large number of people to go and do something else. Living like a zombie for the next 20 years - not worth it!

W2

[cxlinedriver]

From the Rostering guys on the AOA, their view is that on each 3 man trip to Europe the SO will be burnt out each way (8 hours in the seat).

There is no way that the rest will be evenly divided (nor should it be!) the crew members doing the landing will get the rest. The SO is there to provide that rest.

CX want 3 man as it saves them $, but they do not want to give more rest days before, during and after a 3 man pattern - defeats the purpose of reduced crewing and therefore saving $.

Air NZ etc have far (about twice as long) longer patterns than the current CX 4 man patterns.

Sticking point so far has been HKG CAD wanting more rest days for 3 man patterns. And Oasis management saying it is unsafe. Also, CX Safety Department see fatigue from current rosters as a serious threat to safety. 3 man patterns will only make matters worse.

With Direct Entry FOs taking base slots, retirement age going up and 3 man crews who the hell would want to join CX and live in the filth of HKG????

[Numero Crunchero]

Our current RPs expire on 31/12/08 unless BOTH sides agree to renew them or replace them. At that point our rostering rules become AFTLS. As some have pointed out, CAD have already approved 3man up to 14hrs but have not yet agreed to the rest requirements (before, during and after the pattern) that CX want.

Once some compromise rest requirements are reached CX will have a surplus of about 100 FOs to pursue those lost opportunities. Or maybe the surplus of 100 will neatly ameliorate the FO/SO losses we have been suffering in 2008???

[Captain Dart]

The original CX 747 'Classic' Ultra Long Haul operation was effectively 3-man for the pilots (some of us may remember being 'burnt out' as Relief, not to mention the Silk Pyjama Brigade).

We were also managed reasonably well and therefore worked the odd G-day.

But salaries were the old A-scale, layovers were longer and we had more leave. Nothing less than this for 3-man ULH is acceptable.

[ringerfromthetopend]

WHEN 3 man ULH gets introduced then we will be away for 17 days a month just like AIR NZ.....funny thing is the union fought to get extra days in HK and LHR on the AKL-HKG-LHR route to make up for 3 man ULH at AIR NZ...cant see us fighting for more days away from home here at cx espicially as the rosters seem to be getting worse and worse every month.

How about a commuters roster where we work 2 weeks on/2 weeks off...im sure it would suit alot of guys.

[Baywatcher]

Can't agree more. To hell with one in 7 and two in 14; just 14 on and 14 off would be great!

[MidgetBoy]

Good thing to add on a cadet application then...
Did a 18 hour flight from Vancouver to Las Vegas... =P they're bound to hire us!

[NewEssO]

unfortunately, the answers are as expected :ugh:

[claire40]

For your information BA our one world partner has been forced by the caa to desist in 3 man ULH!!
All ULH on the 400 are operated 2 Captains and 2 First Officers

[NewEssO]

that doesn't mean we are subject to the same rules, does it

[Kitsune]

No, but it forces even the dimwits and lickspittle lackeys at the CAD to understand that this may not be the best thing for aviation safety..:rolleyes:

[ULH Extreme]

Hi Guys/Gals, HK to LHR is not ULH, just a norm longhaul. There's a whole new set of rules for ULH,and there's no way they will go to a 3man crew. The only true ULH is SIN to EWR and back and LAX to SIN on a bad day, these being about 18 to 19hrs.
The 4man crew works fine on these, lots of 4 and 5hr breaks and beds to sleep in. Best thing is only 2 trips/mth, so about 15days off

[NewEssO]

it sounds like you are talking about SQ's routes

[BlueBogey]

i've got a rostered 3 man lhr-hkg cx trip in may!:ooh:

[NewEssO]

you mean they haven't found the 4th guy yet right :)

[Busbert]

i've got a rostered 3 man lhr-hkg cx trip in may!

What, a lady captain?

[The Messiah]

Yeah I had a 1 man trip rostered this month.:rolleyes:

[Hand Solo]

For your information BA our one world partner has been forced by the caa to desist in 3 man ULH!!
All ULH on the 400 are operated 2 Captains and 2 First Officers

Not so. BA25 to HKG is 3 man both ways in the summer season.

[clarence4000]

Your quite wrong
There are no 3 man ulh to Hong kong by BA
please check your facts carefully before posting

[Hand Solo]

Facts checked carefully, including my log book. If you'd care to tell me where the fourth man was hiding on my last HKG I'd love to know as he certainly didn't turn up for his stint in the hotseat. If you don't believe me then go to the airport and count how many flight crew get off the BA25 or on the BA26. Alternatively you could just take the word of a BA 744 pilot such as myself. 12h45 flight time on a 12hr50 schedule with 3 crew, nice.

[sizematters]

followed by 17 hours waiting for your bags to show up in T5


Good old Willie...........................

when you guy's going on strike??

[NewEssO]

Facts checked carefully, including my log book. If you'd care to tell me where the fourth man was hiding on my last HKG I'd love to know as he certainly didn't turn up for his stint in the hotseat. If you don't believe me then go to the airport and count how many flight crew get off the BA25 or on the BA26. Alternatively you could just take the word of a BA 744 pilot such as myself. 12h45 flight time on a 12hr50 schedule with 3 crew, nice.


This made me laugh :ok: i guess it is true then, 3man ULH in BA, only a matter of time here...:S

[Cavallier]

Hand Solo is spot on, BA have three crew members on the BA25 and 26 in the summer months. Reduces the cost of a round at the Dickens significantly!

The Cav:cool:

[Liam Gallagher]

Not sure how relevant the fact that BA/ Air NZ or QF do 3 or 4 man (or person in the gender awareness age). Further, not sure if anyone is advocating it's a good idea...

However, if anyone is saying it seems to work fine for "X" airline and hence must be an OK idea.... then please state which of those airlines will roster 3man ULH with one person based in London, one person based in SYD (but on a 9 day pattern) and another based in HK, being a "low-time" pilot.... :ugh:

[BusyB]

I think you'll find, HS please correct if necessary, that the crews have a bigger rest period either side of each sector.

Wouldn't be possible for CX to do with present crewing arrangements.

[The Messiah]

BusyB you are correct as far as I am aware. The increased rest would negate the saving of the 3 man crew.

What BA/QF etc do is of no relevance to CX. Different animals.

[Hand Solo]

BusyB - no change in the rest period for the BA25 AFAIK. Probably about 2-4 hours more time in HKG than the other flights due to the earlier arrival but the 25 doesn't attract any more rest back in the UK. It's 2 local nights just like the other HKG flights.

[Unscorable]

Which is where it differs for cx crew - only one local night down route.

[clarence4000]

if u really do work for BA you will be aware that the rule has changed
and there is now no rostered 3 man to Hong kong.
3 man ulh sucks doesnt it

[Hand Solo]

Sorry Clarence but I'm not quite sure what rule changes you're on about. I did a 3 man HKG last week and I'm doing one next week too. No rule changes, it's been like that for at least the last three summers. And yes, it does suck.

[Liam Gallagher]

A while back you wrote the following with great authority...

Icao has agreed age 65 for captains for all jars ops related member states.
eec labour laws dictate early retirement is a no no to all eec member states
therefore all veta uk based employees can remain employed until this age on thier PRESENT TERMS AND CONDITIONS .

That proved to be a crock of shoite....:rolleyes:

Handsolo has established his creditials as a BA 400 driver.... what are your creditials?.... either "put up" or "shut up".....

[ACMS]

I propose we use the same Rostering Practices as BA.

Days off, guaranteed credit, minimum rest at outports etc etc

UNTIL THEN any comparison is MEANINGLESS.

[Kitsune]

....AND the bid line...PLEASE!!!!! :E:E:E

[Arfur Dent]

Clarence sais one thing and Hand sais the other. Hand seems to be flying for BA on the -400. Is someone else out there who has done 3 man crew ULH on a BA 744 from LHR-HKG and back? I didn't think they did it at all so there are lots of us who are intrigued??..!! What does BALPA say?

[Mr. Bloggs]

Dear Captain, due to roster disruption we are advising you and your crew you will not receive your required rest afforded to you in the AFTL’s. It’s legal!:ok:

Please advise
Crew Control

[Hand Solo]

Jagman1 - BALPA doesn't say very much about it. It's within FTLs and Bid Line Rules because BA moved the report at LHR to 17:55L which puts it 5 mins within the acceptable band for 3 crew. That said, it only takes 40 mins delay to trigger the Bid Line requirement for the fourth man (you can guess what Ops usually say when you ask for one) and a further 30 mins before you are into discretion, less if you are un-acclimatised. It's only 3 man for the summer season as the average flight time for the return leg in winter exceeds the Bid Line 3 crew limit. Were it not for the ruthless efficiency at the Hong Kong end and the lack of holding at LHR at the planned arrival time I doubt it would meet the 3 man limits even in the summer.

[4engines4longhaul]

Over the road from BA we at Virgin operate 3 man LHR-HKG. At least we do in the british winter{gmt versus bst}, and always 3 down to SYD. Like BA we change from 3 to 4 for half the year as FTL 'S become more limiting. Unlike my dark days with the silk PJ brigade we divide rest in a more gentlemanly fashion. ie, a 12 hour flt would have the extra pilot in bed for the first 2 and a half hours or so, followed by the PNF in bed for about 3 and a half, followed by the PF, and the extra in bed for the last 2 hours or so.
Do i miss the Tristar? Yep. :rolleyes:

[clarence4000]

Hi Liam,
last time i checked this was a rumour network
However regarding Veta I am as baboozled as everyone one else how can one high court judge rule one way then another says something completely different.
As for 3 crew Ba I also have it on good authority that they will no longer be rostered sometime soon :)
and a bloody good job too


Caveat Emptor

[Kitsune]

Well, when you're the muggins next time, wait 'til you get into the hotel, and try this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/print/science/humanbody/sleep/tmt/

[rick.shaw]

3 man ULH, RA65, DEFO's, COS08 and other matters are just popping up so much in order to take focus away from the pay issue. You know, the pay issue that was supposed to be addressed once we got housing and RP's sorted out. Now rumours abound that the housing is going to change. What else will come up? It's all not only diverting us from pay issues but is creating even more division within the ranks. Well done to CX management and their industrial advisors....

[Ex Douglas Driver]

How about today's 252 LHR - HKG that is crewed with 2 S/Os.....? Think of the cost savings!

[hongkongpilot]

CX254 is the same. :ok:

[Hiro Nakimura]

I don't know if you are right or NC. Can you please decipher the following from RP07?

2.1 The Period of Validity of this agreement is for a twenty month period from 1st May 2007 to 31st December 2008

2.2 At the end of the Period of Validity, the agreement will be automatically renewed in its entirety for a further period of two years and will remain in full force and effect unless either party gives notice to the other in accordance with section 27 save that the Period of Validity shall then be for a two year period from 1st January 2009 to 31st December 2010.

Section 27
27.1 During the Period of Validity of the Agreement, either party to the Agreement may give notice of its intention to terminate the Agreement at the end of the Period of the Period of Validity by giving to the other party not less than three (3) months' written notice of such intent.

27.2 Where notice in accordance with 27.1 is given, the Agreement will remain in full force and effect until the end of the Period of Validity.


So what happens if CX says it wants to terminate? What is our fall back position?

[Numero Crunchero]

Well putting on my bush lawyer hat I humbly suggest I am right and retread 7 is wrong. If you read the preceding sections from RP07 (thanks Hiro) you will see that either party can terminate the agreement iaw section 27. The additional bit of para 2.2 "...save that the Period of Validity shall then be for a two year period from 1st January 2009 to 31st December 2010" is referring to the agreement being renewed but obviously with a new Period of Validity.

That is - if the agreement is renewed in entirety then it is exactly the same EXCEPT for the Period of Validity - which will be for the 2 years vice the 20 month previous validity. If the agreement is not renewed the "...save that" section does not apply.

Bottom line, either party can terminate RP07 in writing by 30 Sep 08, and then we would be back to Company Policy and AFTLS as of 1/1/09 - clear as mud?

[cx252]

and Swiss put 3 man on airbus for their ZRH-HKG run as well. :)

[BusyB]

I travelled BA027 Departing London on 26th May with 4 Flight deck crew (2 Captains 2 FO's):ok:

[BlunderBus]

burning out the s/o is offset by their 20 days off/month maybe?

[Humber10]

in which airline do S/Os get 20 days off a month?? where can I sign up?? :}

[SFGDOG]

Thanks to all the helpful ones who say "but we do 3 crew to HKG". But in order to do a proper comparison lets have all the information shall we. For example:

How many such 3 crew long haul per month can you be rostered and are typically rostered?

How long are your layovers in HKG?

What is your minimum days off after such a trip?

Do you do "W"s (back to back long haul trips to HKG)?

What percentage of flying per month is long haul?

A typical CX based pilot will do 3 to 4 such round trips to HKG per month. A lot are on super-compact rosters which means they can do 2 round trips back to back (and seeing how tired these guys get on the second trip is, to say the least, "interesting"). Days off at home may be as little as 3 before they get the pleasure of doing it all over again and the layover between sectors is normally between 24 and 39 hours (one local night).

I can't wait to hear how many European legacy carriers roster like that!

[rick.shaw]

Agreed SFGDOG. But as far as the W patterns go, that is a lifestyle choice. I have many friends doing the W pattern thing. A few even complain about how tired they are during those patterns. I very quickly cut them off and remind them it was THEIR choice.

[Buttie Box]

rick.shaw

I know you're referring to compact rosters, but either way some of us didn't have the choice. We're based, voted but were ordered to re-vote and now we based crew are suffering from long-term fatigue. Please, I'm not after the sympathy vote, this is a statement of fact.

Yes, we can get rostered for 3 ULH trips per month before overtime kicks in. Seventy per cent of the flying is in the dark, one assumes a nocturnal lifestyle in Hong Kong out of necessity. By the time you have done 3 ULH trips each month with only 2 days off in between, you are somewhat jaded to say the least.

Other short-haul carriers get 4 or 5 days off in between patterns. Why we threw away the protection of 5-4-3 is really one for the history books. The other comments listed here are valid: first, if we are going to go down the 3-man ULH route then we need adequate rest in between; finally, if we are going to combine 3-man ULH with the present rostering practices, I will have no choice but to vote with my feet. I can't take this any more.

BB