Attn Cx And Ka Management

[oldsmithy]

I think the CX offer is going to have a long lasting result. Out of 475 Pilot's at KA the majority have applications else were.. Good luck retaining Crews to fly your aircarft.

Has anybody heard of a Y seniority system. With both sides crews being protected. Or does this sound too fare. Green team and the red team becoming one big cohesive purple team. With fareness for everyone. Especially no pay drops.

What about when aircraft are transferred from one company to another that crews are automatically transferred as well. No one can say they are being displaced because these aircraft aren't new to the Cathay system and neither are the crews. No crew at KA have asked for this offer or for CX to purchase KA. The people at the top of these two companies need to realise each crew member is a person, a human, with human emotions, needs and desires, dreams and aspiration. So next time you think of screwing 475 people (plus family x3), think of their faces and the families you are also affecting before being so cold hearted with your approach.

At the end of the day the aircarft still need to be crewed by someone. Since neither company have sufficient crews why are you trying so hard to remove us from your employment.

Go for the Y joining of the seniority system ASAP. By doing this all I can see is efficiencies. Better crew utilisation.

Stop waisting money on training crews that are being trained on aircraft they have no intention of remaining on.

I would like to say wake up and smell the roses before it is too late, but me think HKG and pollution would make smelling roses very difficult..:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[whatsforlunch]

Well put agree entirely

[oldsmithy]

With the lack of replies. Could this be an accurate post. I think so. Lets have a happy working life in HKG and help the poor management types out of their hole.............

Oldie

[Liam Gallagher]

The 3 nominations are;

1. A "Y integration" or,
2. CX Pilots join on the bottom of the KA list, or
3. KA Pilots join on the bottom of the CX list,

Following a short meaningful discussion, give everyone on the respective lists a vote and let "democracy rule".....

Can't be...ahem...fairer than that?.......

[Lowkoon]

The lack of replies reflects the attention it got on the DPA website too. Nothing. Think of it as Hong Kong's response to reducing pollution. Great idea, but its not going to happen. Too many greedy self serving individuals in the way for it ever to get a fair hearing.

LG, democracy by definition ceases to be "fair" when the majority hold a personal, professional, and complete self serving bias. Hence all nations who employ democracy, use a form of representative democracy. If this were to be employed, you will find the result far different from what you suggest. For a start, all of the KA guys would vote, do you think that 2000 cx guys would be bothered? I bet you there would be just 1 or 2 that would forget, or couldn't be bothered, or just didn't want to support an AOA directive on how to vote. Then KA has a George Bush style victory. Still not going to happen though.

Why do you think they made this style of "Imposed Integration" illegal in the UK? Because it is "FAIR"?

Either merge the lists completely or not at all... Ever. Not the BS they are dishing out now.

Any airlines out there looking for 500 experienced drivers? A little tired, battered by previous owners, and wont wear their hats, but willing to offer good return of service to the right applicant. Hong Kong based airlines need not apply.

[jetset]

I am a democrat Liam, what a good idea.
:}

[oldsmithy]

The y system is the only and fairest system. All the KA crews need to get together and say we demand this type of integration. What CX is currently doing is disgraceful.:=

[Cpt. Underpants]

The words "we demand" won't wash at Tyler Towers, trust me.

"Y" integration? Pah-lease. What part of "buyout" don't you get? Winner takes all and the victors write the history books.

[DrunkenAir]

It anyone thinks that CX will downgrade KA Captains in order to please the AOA for the sole benefit of having a single list, then you are mistaken. They will never spend the money on 're-training' nor risk losing that many crews.

At present the 'offer' directly affects around 100 Classic drivers. At a realistic gues some 50% of them will take up the offer (mainly FO's) to transfer to CX on the 747 fleet based in MAN. Some 40% will take up the option of coming to HKG. These will be mainly senior FO's or very junior Capts. That leaves around 10% that will simply leave for greener pastures.

So in the washup, CX will gain around 50 pilots with around 20 of them going through the Rapid Command scheme. CX/KA will only lose around 10 pilots. Of course that will increase if the Rapid Command proves to be a culling tool.

KA pilots based in HKG wil not be integrated into a common list at CX's whim. Not at least until they can gain crew efficiencies which will only occur if the CAD allow each others TIRE's to crosscheck each others pilots and allow those pilots to fly each others aircraft. If CX can get this through then there are significant benefits for the group.

Of course the AOA will object to this and state that KA pilots cannot fly CX pax aircraft. But when millions of dollars in savings are possible, do you think that CX will listen to the AOA? And consider that NO CX pilot will be disanvantaged. In fact once it happens, CX time to command will reduce as FO's have access to another 30 odd aircraft.

In short, a merger of the list can benefit both pilot groups and provide significant savings for CX/KA. CX/KA will not pander to either pilot body in order to achieve these savings. There are many hurdles to cross but being an optimist I believe that can be done. What is needed is a rational and objective approach by all parties concerned.

Cheers
Drunkenair (hic)
:}

[Lowkoon]

It seems you guys are having similar difficulty with the word "Illegal" Capt Underpants. The new legislation specifically applies to buyouts, making it illegal to just put us on the bottom of your list and reduce our terms and conditions, without recognising our previous seniority and terms and conditions. Sounds fair to me. You had better hold off on the final print of "Mein Kampf" big fella. There is a bit more to this one than "its our bat and ball."

I agree with you that the Y scheme wont work here, and probably isn't the appropriate template for this situation. Y scheme works when they all fly the same tails, as in the Qantas case. In this case, they wish to keep 2 separate brands, so why integrate? 2 brands, 2 lists. Simple. The reason it has been complicated is that CX only want to integrate a few of us. The Manchester guys, so they can solve their crewing problems there. What if they then have crewing problems on the 330 in HKG? Do they then integrate the HKG based 330 guys to solve that problem too? Remember that will be easier for them, no laws stopping them in HKG like there are in UK.

If KA wants to get out of freight, which is really what is happening, then they need to face facts, offer redundancies, reallocate positions to HKG for those who want to go, and then if we have too many people, we have a redundancy list specifically for that purpose. Under their own admission, we would get the next 8 330s if we could crew them, so plenty of room for anyone who wants to come. (Not many do).

If guys take redundancy from KA, they are then entitled to apply for a job at CX, and join the bottom of your list like any other new joiner. CX freight know that their package is inadequate, and they wont get any applications from the guys that leave. Too many other good jobs going.

[volarecantare]

Well said DrunkenAir. More people like you are needed in the Union and in Management and probably in Government too! When things are examined from a "what makes sense" perspective rather than what they want, all parties could begin to act a little more rationally. The fact is that the single biggest issue facing a productive solution is Seniority. It should be abolished and allow people apply for positions based on experience and lifestyle choices. No other professional would think it is acceptable to have to begin a new job without their previous experience being maximized. CX could be very creative about this situation and offer all pilots of both companies the chance to bid for positions in either "brand branch' which may suit their flying experience, health family or lifestyle needs and priorities. They could look at part time and combined long haul/short haul Fatigue and life quality has become a major concern for pilots over the past number of years. There was a time we would have accepted anything just to get a job but now people will sacrifice a lot just to have a life.

Either way this recent offer is really smoking out the true nature of pilots and their vicious and intimidation tactics they are so willing to level at their colleagues. It begs the question, how some of the tactics employed by "unions" to control their own members are accepted while at the same time the Unions call Cathay bullies? At least one of those bullies is paying a salary!

It seems the KA union are pushing hard to try to leapfrog the CX guys for seniority for bases and command.
They feel the current offer in MAN with bottom of the seniority list could ruin this opportunity for them getting back to the land of OZ. They are willing to bash down any of their members wiling to accept such an offer. The whole thing stinks. Then on the other side there are the CX who have been panging to follow that ol yellow brick road home for years who are terrified that their KA "mates" could possible leapfrog them.

Unions have as much history of hurting the pilot body by either the self serving approach of some elected individuals, or by their naiveté when it comes to negotiations and deal brokering. There should be an equal level of scepticism leveled towards bullish union directives as there is to CX.

Maybe some would say this is the old divide and conquer method of CX but if it is they are playing a very stupid card. No airline should be comfortable with situations escalating that could possibly bleed an acrimonious atmosphere into the cockpit environment, or indeed into the training and checking department. Indeed they should be equally aware that in this time of pilots shortage and the plundering of the international reputation of pilots that many infamous companies have levelled, humiliating and reducing the profession to their knees that it may not be sees as an attractive career option anymore.

By the way Capt Underpants shouldn't you still be wearing pull ups?:)

[Cpt. Underpants]

Lowkoon, are you referring to legislation in HKG or in the EU? If it's HKG, it's woefully inadequate wrt employee protection. I've read the labour act cover to cover (some years ago, mind you - during the 49'er issue) and it lacks protection in EVERY area for employees.

In short, employers are free to do as they please as long at it is judged to be in the interests of the majority and in the long-term interest of the company.

As much as I would like to see seniority acknowledged IF there's any dissolution of Dragonair (I would be absolutely unaffected, fwiw) I really think that the wishes of any group are likely to be ignored and CX will do exactly as they please. Sadly, it's likely that the only force majeure that Lyin' Tony and his (mis)managers will notice is an exodus. Apart from the 40 or so CX 777 drivers who will leave for V Oz and the trickle out the door at Dragon, I also don't see that happening.

They're biding their time, waiting for the other shoe to drop in the USA's recessionary spiral and all those bright eyed/bushy tailed CRJ drivers will stream over for their shot at the big time. Yes, many will abandon CX within a year or two, but there will be a net gain, the schedules will be met, albeit through loads of overtime, but they will sell seats and the revenue stream will continue unabated. QED

[oldsmithy]

Capt Dacks, me think more than 10 KA Pilots will leave, talk around town is the majority have applications and some have interviews pending...

Secondly the talk on the flight deck would seriously suggest there are going to be big losses. I only know of two Captain's interested in joining the green team. The rest well that depends on job interviews.


Cheers, Smithy

PS I think also there has been a lack of interest in the expression of Intent.

[Liam Gallagher]

"I]No airline should be comfortable with situations escalating that could possibly bleed an acrimonious atmosphere into the cockpit environment, blah ...yawn... tedium... etc posh- word blah...an attractive career option anymore[/I]"

Do the phrases... ASL... 49ers... B scales, C scales, Freighter Roster practices... FACA..different retirement ages.... mean anything to you?:ugh:

[Lowkoon]

Gday Capt Underpants, refering to neither hkg or EU. The legislation is in the UK where the FCS guys are based, hence they are covered by it, and CX have to abide by it. Cheers.

[volarecantare]

...ahh Liam my boy, who would we be without our old wounds to define us... so tell me what have we learned from the history you cited?

Don't imply that anyone refusing to shout the old victim card has forgotten any of that painful stuff. Sad state that hope and optimism and trust are now considered a bigger enemy amongst. They took more from us than our dignity....

We are here now in a different situation and a solution will be difficult to arrive at which will keep us all happy!

Is walking around with a chip on each shoulder a definition of balance in your world? The very painful history we have experienced does not justify us treating each other badly whenever our old cages are rattled by the big boys.

Sorry about using "posh" words...was little 'plundering' that upset you, would you prefer I used the word demise or destruction?

A B C D scales, maybe they figured we needed a little letter learning. So what are your thoughts on the Y system pros and cons etc?

The word fair is being tossed around a lot, what's deemed fair by one group will always be seen as unfair by the other.

[Liam Gallagher]

...so tell me what have we learned from the history you cited?

err... Swire do what's best for them...?

The very painful history we have experienced does not justify us treating each other badly whenever our old cages are rattled by the big boys

What does this mean? Are you saying CX pilots are treating KA pilots badly? Do you really believe CX pilots have an input into how an integration will be conducted?

[Fr8t M8te]

Go for the Y joining of the seniority system ASAP.



I only lost all my seniority 7 weeks ago ferferks'sake :ugh:

Better order yet more KY now if we get bleedin' well 'Y'd as well! :mad:

[volarecantare]

Liam G, Swine sorry typo do tend to do what's best of them, isn't that called business? Although one could argue that their short term brutish tactics of old have bitten them in the ass ever since.
So, in the the current environment of pilots becoming an endangered species what's best for them just may be to come up with some solutions which can retain pilots they may otherwise loose. This Man fr8 offer just may be an attempt to do that. What's in the way is seniority which in these times of pilot scarcity serves neither us nor the business.
Can anyone suggest a solution to integration which will keep all 3 parties (Mgmt, CX pilots and KA guys) completely happy?

BTW, I was not suggesting that Cathay Pilots are giving the KA pilots a hard time. However flick through a couple of posts here and you can get a bit of a flavor of the sentiments that are roused at even a suggestion of integration attempt which would leave CX pilots feeling disadvantaged.

The history of Unions and their directives at times like these are pretty infamous. I'm sure things would get interesting should a CX's needs result in offers that challenge the seniority, command time and base opportunities of our fellow comrades. I just hope we don't stoop to the levels we criticize the boys in the tower of when it comes to members making decisions that just might suit them and the company at the same time....while leaving others stuck in Kansas dreaming of what's over the rainbow.

Hidden agendas are often spoken about regarding CX but the great unspoken for all the guys and gals out there wondering what's coming next is that very often our own Unions are not spotless or on their own motivations and can make mistakes. Pack mentalities are best avoided.

I've rallied with the best of them in my time but maybe as I get older I begin to see things a bit clearer.

[Lowkoon]

How about this suggestion? 2 airlines, 2 lists. KA guys go to the bottom of the CX list, and CX go to the bottom of the KA list. No one disadvantaged. The freighters are wet leased to CX, paint them whatever colour you want, no different to wet leasing 330s to the opposition CA at a loss is it? They could surely get creative with what deal they give themselves on the wet lease. The KA guys would then be flying CX schedules thus improving their productivity to the level that CX guys currently supposedly achieve. Whats wrong with this idea? The cost savings alone in not buying new hats for the freighter boys has to be attractive to the bean counters! All it would take is for the AOA to agree to let freight out of Manchester to be wet leased, come up with a cap on the size of the wet lease fleet, limit it to freight ops only, and voilà! A win win agreement.

This protects KA fast commands for KA fos, and CX tardy commands for CX guys.

If they say it is too expensive to maintain 2 lists, ask them to quote a price, then offer for the DPA and AOA to do it for them for half that figure! :) They would then be negligent to the shareholders not to accept such a massive cost reduction to a previously inhibitive cost.

[volarecantare]

Why don't the AOA and DPA Union hire some competent professional advisers, with business, PR and legal expertise to help them develop and prepare a case to present an integration solution to the Shareholders/board of Directors, bypassing Management? Show the shareholders that we can come up with crew and cost saving proposals without the slash and cut methods previously employed.

[oldsmithy]

Come on boys and girls band together 100% united for the best deal for everyone.

United front the companies will have no other option.

Why have the two unions not had meetings back in September 2006 to sought out the future and have a united front to the company just amazes me.

Aeroplanes don't fly themselves the airlines still require us, sometimes they appear to forget that Pilots are a very important part of the airline.

[Lowkoon]

OldSmithy, ask yourself the same thing they are, "Whats in it for them? :confused:" Can we undercut them for shinny new jets? Maybe. Can we be used against them in future T&C negotiations? Not really. We are more expensive in some areas. Not looking good, so keep the lists seperate, until we become a threat to them, they wont be interested. Would we integrate them if the roles were reversed?

[Liam Gallagher]

Lowkoon,

Don't understand the "them" in your question. Be in no doubt, this will be driven by Cathay, ie Swire... and the various departments are under pressure to reduce costs by way of the takeover (Economies of scale). Watch for the following;

1. FLt Ops will want the ability for all 330 qualified pilots to fly any 330. To do this the Ka and Cx SOPs/ checklists are going to morph into one. The 744 procedures are identical as they were formulated by the same chap!!

2. Rostering will be done by the same dept. New roster practices coming Ka's way... that could be good news....maybe...?

3. To stem the flow of pilots leaving Ka, they will have to offer at least the "prospect" of access to Cx bases and lifestyle rosters that come with ULH... is that a light at the end of the tunnel... or a train coming the other way?

For Cathay/Swire, putting Ka pilots on the bottom of the Cx list is a quick easy fix as it avoids a fight with the larger pilot group. However, whether it achieves the important point 3 above is up to the Ka pilot group.

This whole issue doesn't even feature on most Cx pilot's radar yet, so the ball's very much in your Court chaps.....

[Lowkoon]

Liam, a thought provoking response. I agree with everything except the ball is in our court. Please let me explain why.

The "They" I was referring to was the recalcitrant CX pilots that think it wont happen, and probably doesn't effect them even if it did. I have no doubt the management have seen the benefits of 2 separate pilot groups aligned by SOPS and no industrial ties. They will be dying to play us off against each other at the first opportunity. We both agree on that, blind freddy could see it.

AIPA, (QF), openly admit their biggest mistake was not getting everyone "on-board" that was part of the "group". It was because of the aloof arrogance being displayed by AOA. The result was not to the larger pilots bodies liking, and that was with all the protections of Australian industrial law, so imagine what cx could achieve here with Hong Kong laws? You would think that the initiative should be coming from AOA, not the DPA, as we (KA) have the most to gain, and the AOA the most to lose. Whats the worst thing that can happen to us? We go to the bottom of the list, and fly to all the worst destinations in the "Group" network? How is that different from now? Any slight gain is an improvement on this.

The way I see it, the AOA need us onside so we don't maneuver to improve our situation at the expense of AOA members. Moronic attitudes like "What part of takeover don't you understand etc" just serve to fuel a simmering fire that will only burn those that think they are immune to being burnt. Thats in no way a threat, remember these decisions wont be made by pilots, just management trying to maximise the potential of "Group synergy". Its just a reality that there will be less resistance from KA guys to a shafting of the CX guys if they are already left out in the cold industrially.

If none of those reasons spawn communication, how about Sun Tzu's "Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer"? AOAs next move will determine which group the DPA guys fall into. AOA has a great opportunity to attract a very useful ally. The KA guys collectively urge them not to waste it. Therefore we feel the ball is well and truely in the AOA court.

[Pollution IV]

I believe CX pilots need to carefully consider the following probable eventualities:

1. Workforce. In the next 6 mths there will be a further significant exodus of the already depleted KA pilot group, meaning someone has to pick up the slack to service the world's 2nd biggest aviation market. KA certainly needs some relief in order to run this Bangalore rte starting in May. Management may be depending on getting a bunch of Man freighter guys onto the Airbus fleet, however trng is an extra burden on resources and word is these guys will simply take the endorsement and run - a net penalty in productivity. They can't simply recruit their way out of this problem as the flow of pilots out of HKG will definitely outweigh the available suitable candidates.

2. Rate of effort. CX/KA management can no longer take the easy option and simply cancel flts to meet manpower constraints, as there is soon to be competition from HK Airlines/HK Express on the lucrative trunk rtes. Loss of market share will be hard to win back. Rostering will slowly become uniform between to the 2 carriers as the extra flex in CX is used up to fill the manpower void. ie At least all HKG based CX pilots will be working as hard as a KA pilot. (welcome to 9 'G' days/mth, min rest in HKG etc)

3. Pay. Damage control re the above will result in KA pilots being offered even greater pay incentives to stay. This will only retain a few fence-sitters, many will still leave as the bucket of s*#t is well and truly full. Any cost neutral future promises (integration with CX, basing options etc), are all known to be quite empty due to RA65 and therefore ineffective. The irony is that KA pilots will soon likely be paid more than pilots of the parent co. Remember KA no.s are already critical and the OT threshold is lower than CX (ie 75hrs).

Sorry to be the harbinger of bad news, but can't anyone else see this? (lowkoon excepted). Life at KA can't really get any worse, but there is certainly some distance to fall for CX pilots.

The only solution is to combine forces and ensure everyone is at least on the same wicket and receiving equal and best possible remuneration and opportunities in the future. I'm not pointing this out due to a sense of altruism, but merely practicality. Sometime down the track, management will seek to win back the ground they lost through rapacious divide and conquer tactics, which will adversely affect all of us .

The msge is, support the DPAs case now re the manchester freighter guys and in turn the DPA will support you against the inevitable shafting heading your way.

[oldsmithy]

100% agree CX pilots time to wake up and smell the roses. I do realise that is a very difficult task given the pollution in the smokey COUNTRY

GUN at 60 paces....................................................... ..........

[Liam Gallagher]

Pollution IV appears to have outlined the issues... however,

Please don't take the relatively small number of views being expressed on pprune as in anyway a sample of the views of Cx pilots. I am fairly comfortable to express the opinion that for most Cx pilots; being the Captains and the FO's, this is a non-issue. Rightly, or wrongly, they do not see themselves being unduly affected by an Integration. Obviously, the first time a Cx 330 CN is handed a roster dominated by trips to the Mainland or a FO is offered either a 320 Command or Cat B (not suitable for Command): things will change for some....

If you guys go quietly into the night.... you will be on the bottom of the list and continue to do what you do and all will be happy.... nes pas.. Continue to leave and Cathay will have to revisit the idea of you being on the bottom of the list for the reasons outlined by Pollution IV.

A couple of other points; it is an open secret that the AOA and DPA are talking. I would guess one item that is being discussed is the industrial landscape after Integration; the practicalities of maintaining 2 Unions, which Union does a new joiner join; does one union wither on the vine...?

I know as a Cx pilot I do not understand the life of Ka pilot; except that I happy with my decision to join Cx and not Ka. However, Pollution IV, your comments at the end of Para 2 illustrate that you have no idea what our 330 and 777 pilots do......

[Lowkoon]

Dont make the mistake of thinking if you dont make the grade (Cat B) in CX, you will cruise through, and be offered a 320 command. It could be argued, and I think quite fairly, that it is harder to earn your extra stripe on the 320 than it would be on the 330. Have a look at their route structure. It didnt earn the nickname "Jedi Fleet" because they are giving commands away over there.

[flyingkiwi]

that wasnt his point, he was refering to CX forcing a FO to go to the 320 or they would cat B him, I for one would hate to give up my 330/777 prospect of a command for a 320, at least on either the heavy twins there is a lifestyle attached. Its all about pay and days off, and the 320 doesnt do the days of that we are used too.

[AAIGUY]

A320 COULD have lifestyle is rostered properly.

Many airlines in the world operate B737/A320 on 4 on 4 off, 5 on 5 off ect..

If the CX rostering machine can get a hold of the KA roster..good things could happen.

[A. Le Rhone]

kabuuzz: "whos going to sign up knowing there are 1000+ F/Os (potentially) ahead of you for a Ka command?"

The Y scheme is the only way to go. Nobody will join KA. They will join CX and have the option to go to KA if they want the command earlier.

Disadvantages nobody. Helps CX as it fills KA seats that are now basically impossible to fill.