A new President and GC - what then? Negotiation, contract compliance,more industrial?

[Numero Crunchero]

I am sure many of you have seen the email doing the rounds. The question is, what do we do about it.

Immediate option
We could get 10% of the members to call for an EGM and have a vote of no confidence in the representation of the GC. Should that vote pass, it would be an effective coup d'etat and we would end up with a new GC and president.

Patient option
We could wait until the next GC changeover (Jul-Aug) and ensure many more like minded individuals run for the GC and presumably at least one more candidate for AOA president.



The disadvantage of the immediate option is that it is politically messy when you get rid of people. And whilst the process of having an EGM and then electing in the next GC was going on, no real negotiations or GC actions can be conducted.

The disadvantage of the patient option is that the current President and GC will be voting on RPs and Housing - 2 negotiations where there is much to lose should the negotiators continue the practice of the last 5 years of rubber stamping every deal, except CoS08. So by the time the new pres and GC comes into operation they will be stuck with 2 deals, fait accompli.


So ladies and gentlemen, I ask for your opinions on what is the best way forward. Do we make a mass exodus to the CPU? Do we get our 110signatures and call an EGM. Do we just wait till the normal GC changeover and then try to recover any further concessions that have been given!

What is the right course of action once we have a representative GC and president? Contract compliance - and more? SHould we study our actions in 1999 and 2001 and maybe pick and choose what worked so that we can up the ante? With onshoring around the corner, we may have the legitimate right to strike if that is what people want to do. Golf?

Anyway, this is an open forum so please comment wisely. If you wish to say something privately to me then PM or email my personal email.

[Oval3Holer]

Swift, clear, decisive action: get the signatures and call for an EGM now. A day gone by is a day wasted and a day closer to another bad deal.

As for what next... the AOA leadership has to do what it can and SHOULD do in the legal department to deal with CoS violations by the company. These battles, although they will be muddled by the "that was not the intent of that wording" argument, inexorably used by CX, will at least be clear in their determination and direction.

Getting all of us to stand together, shoulder to shoulder for a common cause will be much more difficult, if not impossible. Each pilot has his or her priorities, which may or may not coincide with those of other pilots. CX's habit of creating different "deals" for different groups of pilots has been successful in dividing (some would say conquering) the pilot group. So, a group which should NOT be divided is the leadership of the AOA, which SHOULD fight for better conditions for ALL pilots, as well as holding the company to its contractual obligations which currently exist in our CoS.

We need a GC which unifies the AOA. Only then can we begin to think seriously about what to do next.

[ALPHA FLOOR]

Where do I sign?

Lets get this done and dusted - no more procrastination.

AFL

[jed_thrust]

There is no guarantee to future prosperity with either option: whichever path is chosen, there be crocodiles ahead.

For my money, though, a quick and decisive beheading has the greatest chance of creating a new and positive environment for all pilots.

Bring on the EGM...:ok:

[Three Bear]

Agree let's call the egm. We cannot afford to lose anymore time. ST and the D's don't represent the majority and are pushing their own barrows. Shameful. Good post NC.

[willnotcomply]

Like MG, ST has probably secured enough via the "NR ski chalet assistance program", it caters nicely for compliant presidents. A basing of choice to sweeten the deal, no doubt. Clever on the company behalf though. Why win the hearts and minds of 2000 soldiers when you can corrupt one General. ST will be happy to leave.

[Night Watch]

Numero Crunchero

As you said both options have their flaws.... but I believe that option number one is the one which must be perused and quickly.

I will sign for a EGM today!! And I personally know of 18 others that I have talked to in the last week that will do the same. I'm sure you will get 110 signatures within the first day that it's put out there.

[The Management]

Just a warning to some of the pilots, be very careful. The militant group is a minority. The majority will not support you. Do you really believe the majority will support industrial action or contract compliance? It will not happen.

If you support contract compliance, most will be doing it. Contract Compliance is not happening now or ever. We have no problems crewing the flights. We have a vast majority of crew that are willing to help out The Cathay Pacific Group for some extra salary. Some crewmembers are doing quite nicely in their salary package as of late.

In this time of expansion, we are willing to pay some EFP to crewmembers that are willing to accept the extra duty. There is always someone who needs extra money (ask our extenders on B scale or that extended on the freighter).

The pilots of The Cathay Pacific Group lack the fortitude to mount any industrial action against The Cathay Pacific Group.

Many of the new joiners may not know first hand what we are capable of. We will terminate contracts, we will have you evicted from your home where possible, we will advise the IRD and Immigration of your contract termination, we will advise all the banks of your current employment status, we will tell the world these pilots are not valuable employees, we will charge you for unused staff travel tickets, etc. You get the picture. So be very careful where you think you want to go.

We will do it smarter this time. We will put you through a proper D&G with your Chief Pilot. Your appeal will be with the GMA and I can assure you, you will not pass. All Chief Pilots and the GMA are willing to put in this effort.

To My Bonus.

The Management

[Numero Crunchero]

Thanks, I always like to have the contrarian view to keep me honest. Can CX do kangaroo court D+Gs? ABsolutely, I have witnessed two of them.

You know for intimidation to work you have to be afraid of the potential outcome. So if I am "D+Ged" what will happen? Can't take away my sense of humour, can't take away my birthday, can't take away my kids, can't take away my friends? What you will be removing is a constant source of 'chronic' stress - the stress of working for a 21st century industry running on 19th century coal mine human resource management. You will be removing me from some of the most polluted air in the world so remind me to thank you(I have a relative with emphysema so you would be doing me a huge favour)

I was happy before CX and I promise you I will be happy after CX. There is nothing you can say or do that will make me 'fearful'.

Personally, I would just like to sit back and do nothing and let someone else try to effect change. But as the saying goes, "if not you, then who" - so I will continue to work to improve the lot of those who have earnt 20-50% less than me per year since they turned up in CX.

But, please keep the posts coming. It can't hurt to have the doom sayers' views as well!

By the way, the LSU and cabin crew managed to stand up to CX and stop having a unilateral change imposed! The cabin crew have around 50% membership too! So who knows what is possible.

[Westcoastcapt]

I missed The Management. Glad to see he is back.

Oops, he forgot the based members. Remember, they are based in their home countries with all the rights and priveleges that go with paying taxes there. And thanks to Mr Crofts, we know that they are indeed employed in their bases. No wonder the onshoring move to the UK is taking so long, they cannot believe what they are up against. Imagine trying to grasp 21st century law with 19th century thinking.

The right to bargain, the option of arbitration, and of course, the right to strike. Imagine being fired for doing exactly what your imposed contract says you should. Abuse that and sack someone, and the wrongful dismissal lawyers will trample whatever is left of the carcass that is left when the labour lawyers are done. Oh oh, I forgot those in the legal profession who thrive on defamation suits. Could mean a nice early retirement for someone.

It is often said that a sure sign of stress is incessant babbling. And boy, is The Management ever babbling.

No doubt, they are worried that any coup that ousts the President and GC will garner significant negative local press. Imagine the panic, if a militant regime takes over the AOA with great fanfare and lots of press, just before the busiest travel season of the year.

It makes me shudder.

Ciao

[AnAmusedReader]

NC Didn't u quit the union when ND was president - too militant for you, or something like that? Then you quit the GC because ST wasn't militant enough. Now u think you can rally the troops - all the brave but anonymous (and at the end of the day gutless) contributors to these threads on PP.

Will you actually find over 100 who will have the b@lls to sign their names? It has to be up front doesnt it, not hiding behind a PPrune handle.

Then, if the motion is passed, you have to find a new president and 20 new committee members. There weren't 20 prepared to stand last time. Will you get 20 to stand and lead the charge?

All you'll do is end up adding more to The Management's bonus.

What change did the FAU and LSU stop? They just delayed it by a few months.

BTW, is it true that ND is baling out to take a freihgter job in the UK?

[SAD]

Yes heard ND is taking a freighter base on A scale since there is no more FACA. Could be just a rumour though.

[Oval3Holer]

Will you actually find over 100 who will have the b@lls to sign their names? It has to be up front doesnt it, not hiding behind a PPrune handle.

Do you really need b*lls to sign an AOA petition to remove the GC? I think not. If so, are we scared of our own association?

[The Management]

Mr. NC, you don’t get it do you. We will not put the leaders through a D&G process; we will terminate the contract of the less than well off followers.

We will terminate the contracts of Captains with Families, First Officers with families and possibly Second Officers with families. Those pilots will find it hard to find a wide body job that have the benefits/pay of The Cathay Pacific Group. Most of these will be the sole breadwinners of the household. We will pick ones that use our owner/occupier program. They will find it hard to pay for food and the mortgage at the same time with no income.

When the rest of the pilots see this, they will not be so militant with your contract compliance or industrial action. Most of the pilots around since the late 90’s know this and will be very reluctant to join your industrial action. They will be fearful before they are brave. They have families to raise and will not jeopardize this. They have seen what happened to the 49ers.

We all know very clearly how the pilot membership takes care of their members. Don’t here much from your CPU friends with regard to the court cases. They will not win in a Hong Kong court, we will make sure of that.

We are taking notice of pilots taking your PRA’s as some pilots call them. Calling in sick at a moments notice and going over their allotment for the year. Be very careful.

I can’t see how pilots that are very fearful of contract compliance be able to go on strike while on a base. It’s not going to happen. We know the pilots and what they are capable of as the pilots know what we are capable of. Did the court cases proceed in Australia, USA, Canada and other 49er bases? Only one pilot stood up in the UK. That says it all.

Do you actually believe you will find over 100 pilots to sign? I can tell you now; the First Officers and Second Officers will not sign, as we will hold back their upgrade. We all know how much pilots want their upgrade; they will crawl over their own to get there. The Captains will believe that they are doing it all themselves and that they are the only ones sticking their head above the parapet. They will not do it.

As the vocal minority, stay in your box and let Mr. ST (and the majority) get on with the AOA duties.

To my Bonus.

The Management

[willnotcomply]

Not all pilots

[Liam Gallagher]

1. "The Management" is clearly an experienced CX pilot (not management) who adopts (whether he/she believes it is not relevant) a position; amps it a bit; passes it through to a "Chinglish filter" and produces something that will make you think....

2. NC, IMHO, produced at 0433 a reposte that requires careful consideration by the pilot body...

This is an interesting thread... keep at it guys......

[moosp]

Yes irrespective of whom The Management is, whether fifth columnist or loose cannon, he certainly knows how the Hong Kong Hongs treat recalcitrant staff.

They do (and we have seen CX do) all of the things that he mentions when they terminate staff. Their actions seem to be a combination of the vindictiveness of power, and an attempt to "encourage les autres."

It works in the short term, as any pirate captain will demonstrate. But in the long run you lose productivity, build a tarantula of resentment (thank you Nietsche) and ends up with the senior management being pursued by paid investigators to find that one mistake that gets you two years in Stanley for insider trading.

I am sure there are better ways of running a company.

[Liam Gallagher]

big thread creep (shame as it's a goodun)... if we are talkin about the same "pirate captain".... I thought it was mutual consent....

[Loopdeloop]

I don't know about climbing over people for a command. Most F/O's I meet now seem to be putting it off to stay on a base as an F/O or are leaving the company soon so couldn't give a rat's about an upgrade.

[Peebee and Jay]

Reading "The Management's" post, just confirms the feeling I have had for the last 3 months... (Actually a lot longer then that, but the bucket is now overflowing). Who wants to work for a bunch of W:mad:s like this anyway? Not me. I have ticked the last box. Sold the house and now with cash in hand, I am scouting for a better deal, and believe me, with the HK$/US$ vs my home currency, there are many good opportunities.

Until then, I say... where do I sign.

To The Management! Enjoy your bonus. :D Might be a little tight next year. I'll be joining a rather large group of FO's and get the f:mad: outta Dodge. Basings and relatively short time to command is something of the past.
What's left? Pollution and rule by fear.

No glue on my the palms of my hands and I refuse to grab my ankles thank you very much. :=

[Numero Crunchero]

I have always believed that the President is a notional position - not a position of power. It shouldn't matter who is in the seat. The President and GC lead where the membership want to go.

2001 vs 2008

In 2001 we had Sep 11, failure of Ansett and most of the owner occupiers were looking at negative equity. B scales had had payrises every year since 1993. We had hong kong employment law. EK salaries were less than ours.

In 2008 we have a world wide shortage of pilots. Owner occupiers are in positive territory. B scales have received a 3% payrise(on some bases) to cover the period Jul01-Dec08. We still have hong kong employment law but CX now have the clouds of 1st world labour laws impinging on their 3rd world labour practices. EK salaries have already risen over 40%(last 5 years) and if the rumours are true, in Apr 08 they will be almost double what they were in 01, and well above CX salaries today. In the last few months, KA have been given payrises amounting to 19+%, sim instructors 13%, ASL FEs 14% and B scales in CX, 3%!

So if I were starting out in CX, I would want to know what sort of future I am going to have. One driven by fear, cronyism, below market pay, but shiny new jets!? If that is the case, why fear anything they may do to you? Since 65 is becoming the industry standard, who cares if you spent the first 5-10 years in CX and the remaining 25-35 years at some other airline?

CX is just a job - with shiny new jets.

[CXYummyMummy]

Get the 10% needed for an AGM and get rid of current president and GC.

As far as contract talks etc. get everything and give nothing. It's a pilots paradise at the moment. Get more now and then we can give away that which we don't need.

I don't understand that they want stuff from us? There is a shortage of pilots and we need to take full advantage of this. They need to give back to us what they have taken over the last decade!

2008 is going to be an interesting year!

Plenty of rumours floating about.

Cathay product is lagging way behind the rest of the industry and Swire is not doing anything about it. For example look at the new Business class. They said they consulted with people about it before hand and did big public relationship deals over it BUT it was a lemon and now they try to cover it up. Admit to the mistake and get a new business class product. Cathay is losing Big time paying customers to the opposition.

As the advert campaign says for Cathay..."it's the little things that matter"

It might pay to listen to your own messages Swire!!!

Whoops - got distracted.. sorry :)




meow......

[BusyB]

NC
The Dragonair payrise was 12% and thats stretching it. Sold taxis, food to get it, The SI's got the rise because they were over 50% undermanned on the -400 and the 777.

Fair enough if the GC get voted out but in a years time I'd look forward to seeing what some of the posters will be saying then (or even if the same names go on).:}

[routetuner]

should be a good month for overtime then?

[luvmuhud]

"We will terminate the contracts of Captains with Families, First Officers with families and possibly Second Officers with families. Those pilots will find it hard to find a wide body job that have the benefits/pay of The Cathay Pacific Group. "

Phaaaa...Ha.....Haaaa ha ha ha ha ha!

Now that is some funny !!!!!!!!

Mate, I could take my wife and kids back to Oz, sign up for Centrelink unemployment benefits, and still have more disposable income than I do as an SO at Cathay!!!

Yes, it's definitely the current salary keeping me here!! Where else could I find a job which has me amassing wealth (hang on, that should be 'haemorrhaging a !!!!e load of savings') at my current rate???

Classic!!


Haa...ha ha ha!


EGM???? Yeah, I'll sign for it.

[Kitsune]

And it's well worth remembering that lawyers in UK will work on a 'no win no fee' basis on industrial disputes...........:E:E:E:E:E

[Lost_Cause]

This is is great thread! Well done!

You are spot on. I'm totally with you on this one. Let's get the 10% numbers, and get rid of current AOA leadership. Sign me up. Time's a waistin!

As for The Management; ignore him boys and girls. He's still working from the old rule book. Times have changed... and he knows it.

[jed_thrust]

No, No, No!

Do NOT ignore The Management!

I have just finished printing out most of his posts, and I tell you, they make interesting reading. In fact, I am quite sure my solicitor will find them enchanting as well: he has already mentioned to me that any action (by the company) of the sort talked about by TM is going to lead to interesting times in the court room.

It is illegal (in HK, as well as nearly everywhere else) to actually put in place the activities so heartilly endorsed by TM.

So, the company is going to have a seriously hard time proving that any D&G procedure has nothing to do with: a. union activity, and b. was not a natural consequence of The Management's posts of - essentially - warning.

Oh, thank you, TM!!:)

[Ex Douglas Driver]

Back to topic.

So how are the required signatures going to be collected? The highly scientific PPRuNe straw poll suggests there is a desire for change, or a least a bit of a shake up at the top. It's going to be a while before the results are collated if the intention is to use a voting-slip in the mailbox.

What about the AOA online voting facility (or does that require 10% member approval....)?

Let's not just talk about it (hiding behind a pseudynom) and then not take action (like seems to happen more times than not).

Fly safe

[Interested_Party]

NC, you contributed to losing alot of guys their jobs in 2001, what are you up to this time? Yes, let's replace the Prez and VPs, but wait the GC is not even full, especially after you threw your toys out of the cot, so who is going to be stupid enough to work to better your lot? Why are your spending so much time apologising to the B Scale for the contract you are on? Stop whinging and put some real work in.

[Mr. Bloggs]

What is the real work?:confused:

[Numero Crunchero]

mini cooper,
my calculations have 10 years in EK worth well over 30% more in after tax dollars without using ERP. ERP is like the CPALRS ( A scale provident fund) currency compensation....it is supposed to compensate you for changes in the present exchange rate versus what it was a few years ago. The EK ERP system is 'opaque' so we don't know what time period they are looking at. I do know the A scale prov fund compensation has been reducing...and obviously CX is ahead of the curve with B scales by offering no compensation for currency movements!

To the others that have asked me questions or attacked me....may I suggest you are attacking the man instead of the ball? If I could relive my life I would do many things differently....this thread was not about what NC coulda or shoulda done. This thread was about what do the members want to do about where we find our selves now!

Something I want to make clear...I have no doubts as to the integrity of the executive of the GC....far from it. Its just that I think the direction they want to go in is very different to the direction the membership wants to go in. I personally think the best way forward is to wait until the normal annual changeover of GC members and then change direction. But I started this thread as many people advised me that the best way forward is to take action now. I can assure you I have no aspirations for AOA leadership...it is a thankless job normally undertaken by those with incredible self sacrifice. I have worked for 3 different presidents and I have admired them all!

I like reading the 'managements' posts as it reminds me of what I am afraid of....I am afraid of not getting my next months salary and meeting my commitments to my ex wife, the banks, bill payments etc. But then it makes me aware of the yoke I have placed over my own shoulders and how my happiness is not actually dependent on my next month's salary....I am responsible for my happiness, CX just contributes to my cash flow.

[iLuvPX]

Good post NC and thanks for the efforts you are putting into CHANGING the AOA into a representative body for it's pilots, unlike it's current state.

Ignore the ad homonym attacks. We all have skeletons.

[The Wraith]

Its great to have skeletons....they prove you are still alive!
Oh yes, where do I sign?:ok:

[missingblade]

CX is just a job - with shiny new jets.Wrong - some of those old 340's are pushing ten years and getting tacky - to the point where I get hayfever from the crappy air coming out of their Air Systems that never get cleaned. Which complements my wife's allergy attacks on most dirty days in Hong Kong.

Sorry for the thread creep...where do I sign?

[Night Watch]

freightdog188

Send a PM to aoa insider .... the numbers are growing by the day!

[LostinAirspace]

Let's have an open and democratic vote on whether we wish to retain our leader. Bring on the EGM and support fully whoever gets elected. Turbulent times are ahead and we need all members singing from the same hymn sheet