Resignations at KA

[joebanana]

2 HKRO Captains resigned today - more on the way apparently.

[Lowkoon]

How many does that leave on the HKRO? 3?

[Apple Tree Yard]

two more resingning today

[Numero Crunchero]

Ummmm, whats a HKRO?

[Ka-life]

HKRO= Hong Kong Report. A contract with no expat benefits. Only 6 Captains accepted this contract before it was put to an end by DPA.

[whatsforlunch]

So starting with 6 captains less 5 resignations leaves 1 right? Good work TW, a well executed plan-not. Anybody know if any of the HKRO f/o's are resigning?

[joebanana]

Not yet but I understand that several of them are waiting for course dates at Oasis.

[joebanana]

Update to my previous post. 3 FOs just resigned today according to my sources. No prizes for guessing where they are going.

[Outtahere]

Started with 9 Captains, 3 resignations to date, 1 long term sick & another 2 with applications in elswehere. 2 of the 3 resignations have come without formal job offers elswehere (ie they just had to get out).

Despite the poor HKRO contract, its not just these guys who are resigning. Manchester & Local contract guys are also resigning, an indication of how deeply the rot has set in. The Gmo & his not so able 744 fleet manager are entirely responsible for the mess they find themselves in, although no doubt they'll rustle up a another scapegoat (can't blame the HKRO guys anymore, they're almost gone!). As they are finding, if you threaten people with termination long enough, eventually they'll walk of their own accord.

The HKRO F/O's have their names on a blacklist somewhere so they may not find it easy to eject.

[mngmt mole]

my sources inside KA tell me that KA mgmt are now blaming CX mgmt for 'creating' the mess...! Nice to see that the crazy are at war with the insane...

[newbie1972]

Yes. The blame game begins. Pity they don't start with the basics. You know, like treating people with respect and in a fair manner...????

[great southern land]

KA are in terminal decline. I suspect that CX is actually hoping to weed out those who don't have the 'stamina' to endure. Once they have culled these miscreants...they will start to move some of our SO's and jrFO's over to the Airbus fleet. Eventually KA will be an seperate airline in name only.

[jtr]

"Get Dragonair pilots on board. It will solve many of the problems.

I didn't realise they/you weren't on board.

[joebanana]

Actually Vermin, I think that you will find those command slots will be taken by current Captains moving over to the 400. Overall there are very few extra command slots available over our current number.

MAN based FOs who do not wish to go to HKG (of which there are many) will be sitting in the right hand seat for at least the next 2 1/2 years. There may be a couple of Classic command slots in the immediate future but these are going to dry up completely as they phase out the aeroplane. All future commands at MAN will be on the 400 and will be taken by current Classic Captains or HKG based Airbus Captains.

With a 4% pay rise offer on the table, I don't see much incentive for junior FOs to stay.

[Lowkoon]

To add fuel to the fire, didnt they sell of the sim centre last week? Also, went in the training side, and you could have heard crickets if the polution didnt kill them all.... Word is that no one turned up for the september course? Any truth to these rumours?

So now, they cant even replace the guys leaving! Interesting times if it is true.

Joe, I think you might find Vermin was taking the p!ss. Command flood? Bwahahaha!!!! :}

[Fly747]

JB I would agree that things are bleak for MAN based FOs. I was told that all training stopped on classic now but as you say maybe a couple of commands, but why bother when the first aircraft goes next year and there aren't enough FOs on the classic so you don't need the CNs.
Any FO will then have to wait at least two years plus and that is the FOs who have only just missed out on recent commands, with all the current classic CNs ahead in the queue for the 400. Then if CX don't give us any more than the 7 jets then further commands will be very slow, for new joiners it will be many years.

[Fly747]

Hi Buzz, good idea to get another rating before you leave in fact its a must if on the classic.
Of course this plan is very popular on the -400. KA is now the Oasis training department.

[shimmydamper]

Since getting ratings seems the latest fashion!

I hope 2nd floor realize, that most of the local guys have UK passports or elligble to work in EU, can bid on MAN to get the 400 rating, and then jump to the neighbours.

clusterf%^k in the making

s

[Fly747]

Another little known fact is that if you transfer from Dragonair to FCS or vica versa then you become probationary again for 6 months and only have to give one months notice to quit.
They used that clause on PW when he failed his 320 conversion. What goes around etc!

[Dan Winterland]

That wasn't the case with me. And those 74C F/Os thinking about converting to the Airbus LHS - think again. You will find yourself in the RHS again if you don't have extensive prior Airbus experience!

[Lowkoon]

Hearing lots about " Back On Board". When will this masterpiece of management stratergy be released to the plebs? There must be a lot of pressure on it. Imagine if they get this one wrong what morale will be like. It really is a lot of sh!t to put up with to get a narrow body command with one of the most poorly organised GA outfits going. Not sure what the incentive is for the junior guys to hang around. 320 commands are a dime a dozen everywhere else in the world.

[Outtahere]

'Back on Board'........ the Titanic.... no thanks!

The once rudderless ship has aquired a rudder in order to steer itself into China again. Unfortunately, while installing the rudder they drilled a rather large hole in its side & I'm afraid 'bilge pumps... ahhh.... out of stock'.

Lifejackets available for all on level 1, I'm afraid none big enough on level 2. Lifejackets are orange, red & white.

[Fly747]

What is this "back on board"? Has a post been deleted?
Just show me the money and I'll climb straight back on.

[And Then]

Back On Board is a rumoured upcoming KA management policy. It will be a a kind of detente of sorts. It is a likely realisation that things have gone too far and some sort of proactivity essential.

It may even be an urgent back peddling approach forced on a reluctant KA management by the new owners. Of recent, the situation almost escalated, with KA management recommending sackings of problem pilots. With resignations trickling in, this policy seems to have been abandoned. And the situation has become so dire and morale so low, problem pilots are spread across the entire pilot demographic group.

At a guess Back On Board would be seperate to current pay negotiations.It will entail an end to open hostility and obstructionism from Personnel Dept and friends. It will cost the Company nothing but will be a severe loss of face to two senior managers in particular.

Dragonair was made lean and as overpriced as possible for sale to CX. Some current managers are culpable. The damage is obvious and the victims have been staff. The ball is in managements' court.

Back On Board?

[Lowkoon]

It is going to be fascinating to see what they are going to come up with to improve morale, while offering us a pay cut at the same time! This is going to be a chuckle if nothing else! :}

Whats the bet Kenny has lost patience with the resident managers responsible for this mess, and has told them to get it fixed. This program will be a true reflection of their collective management skills. I for one cant wait to see their Pièce de résistance! :ok: (Or could that be 'swan song'?)

[ka500]

I wonder how Kenny and the bosses at Cathay will react when they find out the GMO, GMP, and MCR have been knowingly breaking U.K. law by allowing staff with no right of abode or work permits to take up Manchester based positions.

They will certainly be in hot water when the U.K. Border and Immigration Agency come knocking.

[OldChinaHand]

You have to be kidding KA500. How many ?

[A. Le Rhone]

ka500..one trouble-maker tried to stop a colleague from taking a MAN command on the grounds his UK residency may be doubtful and actively went to management to undermine him). Charming act of bastardry. You wouldn't know anything of this? We are our own worst enemies without the KA mismanagers interfering.
In any case, you don't need UK residency/right of abode to work ex MAN. You can live in various countries in the EU and simply op ex MAN. Your info is incorrect.
And the mismanagers trying to get staff Back on Board?
It takes more than words to undo the mess that they have put us in.

[inciter]

It's EU citizenship that is required to work out of MAN. Any European (EU) passport holder can be legally based in Man.

Cathay has recently sacked at least one after finding out they had lied about their EU residency status

[OldChinaHand]

A. Le Rhone,

you are completely incorrect. You must remember that you will be BASED in the UK, not just operating "ex-uk". The basing requires the right to work in the UK. Inciter, Some of the recently admitted (New) countries dont have the right to work in the UK, so EU citizenship alone is not the answer.

A list of the requirements are published on the Immigration/Visa website. It seems of late that certain managers have been a bit lax in checking the details of a couple of individuals. The MGT believed it was the responsibility of the individual, (funny how they never thought that when there was no problem finding suitable Crew).

However, now the proverbial is about to hit the fan big time. The last thing CX/KA needs is to be caught riding rough-shod over UK immigration rules so soon after being caught with the pants down by the Inland Revenue. So as the mismanagers run for cover, those who have lied about the right to work in the UK can expect a swift kick up the..... .

[shimmydamper]

from the MAN based KA crew website where this discussion going on as well

http://www.ukvisas.gov.uk/servlet/Front?pagename=OpenMarket/Xcelerate/ShowPage&c=Page&cid=1018721067826

From the UK Visa section website on right of Abode.
And:
Who requires a work permit?
Anyone who wishes to work in the UK and who is not a NATIONAL of the European Economic Area (EEA). EEA member states are: Austria, Belgium, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Republic of Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, the Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, United Kingdom and Switzerland.

It is interesting to see it states NATIONAL, it does not state resident.
National means passport holder, residency means nothing for a work permit.
In most countries in the EU you cannot have 2 nationalities, so time to make a choice for some.

For me as an EU resident, who cannot work in USA/Africa/australia/south america/rest of the world, its simple,
you have the right to work in EU, how you got that right I do not care and you are very welcome in MAN, or you do not have the right and stay away!
thats what the EU is about
S.

[Fly747]

Next year MAN based will pay UK PAYE, you sure as heck need a work permit and NI number for that.
To employ someone illegally is a criminal offence on the part of the employer.

[dragon521]

@Vermin

Tax free base!! you make me laugh!

We all pay HKG tax to start with
Most guys on MAN base who live in UK have payed taxes since the beginning of the ops.
And the others with residence outside UK, file tax with the home country, and most have a double tax agreement. so end up paying the difference/only HKG tax or really lucky (60days) nothing.

For me UK payee means the 3rd tax authority I have to deal with, It also means we fall under UK law<- see above comments about work permit etc

521

[MJMJKG]

1 more 744 F/O resigned today, 2 more to submit before the end of the week.

[Lowkoon]

Seriously, that has to be 5 gone from the HKRO, wasnt there only 7 to begin with? Successful contract with a minimum of 50% leaving in less than 6 months. Surely TW cant still put a positive spin on this failure when the facts are on the table.... Good to see the locals grow some b@lls and move to greener pastures! :ok:

[FEArookie]

Lowkoon
Please try and humour me. Just imagine that you're home, Sydney, Melbourne, London, wherever it may be, This is your home and it gives you the lifestyle that you treasure. That city is actually a country in itself with its own government.
This state only has two major airlines, and if you're at one, you can't join the other. You're a local and you have many expat brothers who are earning the same as you, but if you include all extra benefits, it nearly doubles the amount, moneywise. The local pilot body is the minority and if the expat majority is having a hard time getting what it wants,you know the local minority is hardly likely to make any inroads. You can put up with this as you have no other option. Yes you can move abroad, but this place has a low tax base and no matter what your expat brothers have to say about it, you're pretty well stuck here . The money and conditions aren't that great, but what are you to do, apart from move away. Something which isn't that appealing as you're at home and all family and friends are here.
So you're biding your time, and next thing you know another option appears, another carrier, one that treats everyone on an equal footing, AND the money is better for a local than at your present carrier. What would you do..after weighing up all the pros and cons, probably go for it, right?
So there you are, maybe talking to an expat brother, some guy that you have no problems with, since its the company's fault that everyone is pissed, tell them that you're leaving for greener pastures..and you here him say "congratulations..and finally you've grown some balls.."
What would you say to your expat friend after hearing a comment like that? An honest answer would be appreciated as maybe I have misread your meaning.

[DrunkenAir]

100% correct Rookie.

The locals have been mistreated, certainly by KA and most probably by CX. It is very true that that was little or no option open to them until very recently. I applaud those that have resigned. It has nothing to do with b@lls, and everything to do with opportunity, and dare I say it, memories of how poorly they were treated.

While on the subject of opportunity I shall continue with my thoughts......

CX and KA "A" scales came into being because of a shortage of skilled labour willing to move to Hong Kong almost 2 decades ago. "A" scale pay was the going Hong Kong rate for some 10 yrs. "B" scale has been around for about 15 years. "C"adet scale has been here for about 8 yrs, and in KA, cadets were re-introduced to address the high turnover rate of expats on B scale.

It is probably worth noting that neither KA nor CX have current management that was present when A scale was introduced. They do not know the costs (losses) associated with keeping aircraft on the ground. The current management teams of both airlines are intent on simply containing salaries, beliveing this will increase their profits. They believe that the change in retirement age to 65 will fix their crewing problems and keep salaries low. This will not occur. Both companies shall lose experienced crews to retirement and other operators as they continue to treat their crews poorly. This exodus will only escalate with time.

If, and it is a big if, half the peoiple who talk of leaving KA do, then they shall see a turnover rate of around 5% in around 9 months.

Now that is not very big by anyones imagination. However, trying to find experienced crews is becoming more and more difficult. Even now KA is cancelling flights due to crew numbers, and soon this will be a chronic problem for them.

In order to avoid the losses of aircraft sitting on the ground, I suggest that big increases in salary are not that far away. They will be paid to stop the rot and attract experienced crews.

Opportunity for all is not that far away!


Drunkenair
Cheers (hic)
:}

[Lowkoon]

fearookie, agree with everything you have said. Lets look at some facts, you can count on one hand the ammount of locals who joined KA with the minimum requirements to fly for Dragon, so in effect, this is their "GA", this is their training ground. Probably why they dont get the same salary. (Note I didnt say 'deserve'). They deserve the same salary when they have at least the minimum requirements expected of new hire expat FO's. Not before. I think thats fair. But they dont get the same pay, nor have they done much about it either. The only real option available to them, if they want to improve their lot, is to leave. We are talking about a pilot group that the majority wont join the union as it may appear 'unfavourable' to the company.

I will stand by what I said. It takes some Kahunas to stand up for yourself, and do something to change your lot. These guys are leaving the company that gave them their start in aviation, and it doesnt matter how you want to say it, that takes guts or balls or courage the likes of which we havent seen until now. We are finally seeing some of the boys doing this instead of waiting for miracles, and I applaud them for growing some balls and doing something, instead of just complaining that they are being treated like second rate citizens. Or if you would prefer me to say, "I applaud their courage".

Hope that clarifies my opinion for you.

[And Then]

More resignations this week. Another yesterday and did the rumoured few today eventuate?

"If you don't like it here, piss off and show us your feet."

I think they are taking you literally Red Leader. :\

[FEArookie]

Lowkoon
I'm going by your logic and not looking for an argument, but then a lot of chaps that AREN'T on local pilot terms are also complaining and not leaving? So i guess it would be just as easy to say to them that they should also show some courage. In fact, wouldn't it even be easier for them to show courage and leave if HK is not their home?
Doing something about it? we pay for our rent or mortgage, by ourselves, nothing given by the company and the union would like some money. Unions have traditionally had little effect in HK and so it maybe a cultural thing, but why should one join? I mean on this forum there are many guys unhappy with the proposed package, and thats the MAJORITY view, our lot who are the MINORITY, aren't going to get much and leaving is the best option. Again, not an argument but it would be a good time now to sell the idea of why one should join the union, as I reckon this is your idea of doing something about it(please correct me if I'm wrong).
Nextly, rightly or wrongly, expats are complaining and its hard for locals to sympathise when one does not get housing or the 15% gratuity. So now we've got an option that is treating every pilot equally, and its base is our home, so we're showing the courage to go, but this was probably an option to ALL the KA DEP's because they had the hours to come here, or go anywhere in the world, including their home..so if you're going to standby your statement, I reckon it should be aimed at ALL pilots who are unhappy and are leaving because they're all showing the courage to take up change. Its even EASIER for expats to show courage since they are much more attractive with the hours and command time that they're probably required to have before joining here.
So i guess my point is, its not just locals who are complaining, but insult to injury when we're the ones who are pointed out for complaining when in fact we've probably got the worst package of the lot!
So if you've just like to rephrase and say that you'd congratulate EVERYONE whose grown some balls..

[OEB]

How many resignations in the last 8 weeks? I think we're up to 14? (heard 3 more today)
Response from GMO?
Zero.

Check my maths but I think thats 5% of the pilots either resigned already or in the next few months.

I personally know of another 6 who are waiting for gratuity etc then resigning in the near future.

[OldChinaHand]

Hmmmm!

"Plaps".......are they similar to "Plafs" ?

[DrunkenAir]

Well, it seems my prediction of a 5% staff turnover rate have come earlier than I guessed.
Might I now go for a 10% turnover rate in 12 months.

If that is not "voting with your feet" then I don't know what is.

Drunkenair
Cheers (hic)
:}

[Enuff Said]

Dear Mr FEArookie,
I am an outsider trying to come to grips with your post. I Understand that your expat colleagues are earning double the amount as a local would earn?
Are all local pilots training costs in KA paid by the company..by that i mean,all ab initio etc to commercial or atpl standard?
Have your conditions been changed since your agreement to accept the terms and conditions of your training and subsequent employment ? Are these what you agreed to in the first place?
Traditionally it has been very difficult for an Expat F/o to get a job.The standard company line of why should we employ you when we can employ a local pilot has always made it very difficult.The number of airlines that do this and offer a career progression have been very few. It appears that some of these people have arrived on your doorstep. I do believe that if you want to live an American lifestyle or an Australian lifestyle etc that you should do that in your own country. It is not an easy step leaving your own country to achieve your dreams be it money or career prospects.
You have mentioned Unions as well.They are generally an important circuit breaker when things get heated from either side.Your union will try to negotiate a general payrise in the core elements of your pay.ie base pay,overtime etc,that way every pilot benefits,not to mention the insurance packages offered ..
Lowkoon has mentioned that as a local pilot(Most likely your first job) that there is a difference in experience,but not on expectations.We all want a career path and a decent salary.It has been made difficult when different groups have accepted different terms and conditions and especially when your airline have offered you local terms with no choice. Unfortunately if your agreed to terms have been violated then fight...if you simply now think it is unfair ..perhaps it is too late and the only way to achieve something better is to apply for that airline across the road or further afield.
Each expat pilot will have a different reason for his arrival overseas. Pay..quick command??? KA is a little different in that it offers a long term contract(Open ended) not the two/three or five year gig.There are plenty of jobs out there if you want this type of lifestyle(look for a new job the moment you start the current) but most of us want a long term,stable career path and we move to a place that will offer this.
Are you protected in any way by being on local terms?
If an expat was to screw up..would he or she be kicked out of the country?
I am rambling now
that's about it
enuff said

[joebanana]

Another resignation today - 320 Training Captain off to Jetstar.

Those floodgates have been well and truly kicked down - time to discuss 'market forces' with dear Tim again. :hmm:

[smilie]

Let the frog stew

[And Then]

Another resignation I hear.

[Australia2]

Another trainer I hear.

[And Then]

Indeed.

And a few others awaiting interview results evidently.

[Lowkoon]

A dozen guys doing final sim checks mid Nov, wont be hard to pick them, they will be the ones requesting the vor/dme back in to hkg!

Might be hard to find crew over these days.... Good luck fellas! :ok:

[Outtahere]

Hey And Then- I think they know the results, just waiting on start dates. If KA would ditch the 3 months notice requirement, many airlines would be most appreciative. No one shows up for those 3 months anyway!

[Lowkoon]

Another 330 captain resigned today. Got to be over 30 guys so far? GMO says 20 airbus commands next year... Surely that will only just cover the guys going to the freighter, and Air China contract.... What about the rest? Or do they plan on reducing services even further?

Interesting times! Time to step in and sort out the mess I think Kenny, you have had 12 months to see where the problems are... Time to actually do something. :)

Look forward to seeing some leadership around here. Anyone "back on board" yet?! :hmm: What ever happened to that little gem???

[HKG Phooey]

kenny has no clue as to what is going on..... Have you read his latest gem? Blah blah...... Exciting..... Blah blah...... I have just had a week in Japan!

This place is &$@#%d

[And Then]

Four more captains on interview this week.

"If you don't like it leave" says the GMO?

Will that statement ever be retracted? :\

[Outtahere]

Unlikely to be retracted, but I suspect regretted by the end of the financial year. Hard to hide several grossly underutilised aircraft & large numbers of cancelled flights from the financial boffins across the road without using the words 'chronic crew shortage'. Its then only a short leap to 'why'.

[DrunkenAir]

"Unlikely to be retracted, but I suspect regretted....."

You have it all wrong - he is now saying he was mis-quoted and that we "took it the wrong way."

Cheers
Drunkenair (hic)
:}

[Fly747]

He may have been misquoted but he still implies it with the recent pay offer.

[Lowkoon]

This is the only place I have worked where the captains leave at twice the rate of the FOs! This has got to hurt! Why are we in such a hurry to sign off on anything? The longer this goes on, the better it is for the DPAs position in negotiation! Management state we will never get cx terms, but the longer this goes on, stating the obvious, the more chance we have of getting close. So we pull out of negotiations until JC has done his indepth analysis of the rise in rent prices in hong kong.

We pull out of negotiations until this analysis is complete, then we go for back pay because of the companies delay. In this time of indepth analysis by the company, another half dozen captains have resigned, and the company is potentially parking aircraft, due 'crew shortage'. One thing you can count on, if we sign off before this crack team have analysed the property market, there will be no increases. The same thing for schooling. Lets just hold off until it is complete. Time is on our side, not theirs. Current T&Cs no longer attract new hires, new hires not turning up can't be put down to a coincidence anymore.

The same for rostering. management say we are making 'progress'. Why should we sign off on anything until this "progress" is incorporated into the agreement? Otherwise it is just bs propaganda to get us to sign off in the 'hope' things will improve. This is akin to telling children that if they are good, santa will come. A hollow promise, when you realise that santa doesnt exist, neither does any rostering agreement. Lets see the agreement,(or santa) then we sign.

May we live in interesting times!

[DrunkenAir]

Getting back to the original thread, I hear that another B744 Capt has just resigned. :D

If this, combined with the other resignations, is not an indication that KA is not the airline to come to for a career, then there is nothing those that are here can say or do to make you listen.

Of course you can come and get that 'Bus' or 'Boeing' endorsement and then take it somewhere where you are looked after.

Cheers
Drunkenair (hic)
:}

[Fly747]

Yes and he was a trainer too! In just over a year of the -400 operation what percentage of those converted onto the -400 have gone, 25%?
KT do you read this?

[Lowkoon]

Gday Vermin, you have the honour of being the first person on earth to call me an optimist! Thanks! Completely agree with hold the line. No question. The only thing we disagree on is the 'bloody nose'. I honestly think we can just sit back, relax, and watch them give themselves uppercuts to their own noses. We dont have to do anything, infact, I think the crewing issue is so terminal, dropping contract compliance tomorrow morning wont change a thing. It is way past 'good will' fixing their inept crewing missmanagement. Way past it. In a way, because we have CC, they have something to blame the problems on other than themselves. Dont forget TW told Kenny that CC only affects a few trouble makers, so he cant use it as an excuse to the board or new owners without looking like a liar, so we are safe there.

People are leaving way faster than they can hire, let alone train! Just sit back and relax, and enjoy the show! (And expect way more rostering disruptions than we ever thought possible!)

[Australia2]

Interesting times for sure,

Makes you really stop and think, when one of KA's favorite sons joins the rapidly growing list of departures.

I feel we will see a lot more of this in the months ahead, it remains to see WHEN the management will take this seriously.

To anyone considering KA, be very careful, where there is smoke there is fire!

Would the last one out please turn off the lights (to save power)

Cheers

[And Then]

Is there anything positive coming out of the talks between the DPA and the GMO? Have heard murmurs the GMO doesn't believe there is a problem at all. He can't work me harder. Can he? :\

[ACMS]

mini cooper: I gotta feeling that any S/O that resigns from CX wont stand a hope in hell of getting into KA.

However I do think CX will send S/O's to KA in the future for training.

[Australia2]

On it goes,

A great guy lost yesterday, recently B744 rated (at what cost Cathay must surely ask eventually) the second lot of Airbus C&T credentials out the door this week!

The Air China cantidates still to be notified with several others in the grips of the Tiger/Jetstar process as we speak.

The next round of Oasis start dates due by easter with upwards of 30 rumoured to be on file.

Surely L2 must be concerned, particularly as the replacements are proving increasingly difficult to find under the current state of operation.

Oz2

[OldChinaHand]

Guys n Gals, last one out, please switch of the lights in KA house, Thank you.

[Lowkoon]

With no aircraft on order, now is the time to put on a mega cadet course! :hmm:

They can at least hang on to those guys until the have the experience for Oasis. :)

[DrunkenAir]

The hot money is on 2 more resignations next week. It now seems that whatever offer KA finally come up with, it will be too late to stop the massive staff losses they have and will continue to incur.

Cheers
Drunkenair (hic)
:}

[Capt Basil Brush]

So how many are off to Tiger Aus?

[Trevor the lover]

5 that I know of guaranteed, maybe some more hiding in the woodwork

[And Then]

I heard three A330 Captains resigned yesterday. And a 320 FO a few days earlier.

"Show us your feet. If you don't like it leave". Ummm I think the new owners better step in because this is going to get worse.

[DrunkenAir]

No-one likes being wrong. I aplogise for saying that only 2 were leaving next week. I see it was actually 3 A330 Capts and this week.

But lets not forget the newly checked out B744 Capt also tendering his resignation.

Cheers
Drunkenair (hic)
:}

[OldChinaHand]

So many guys taking up the GMO`s invitation to leave. Guess he did not expect that. Whats the cost to KA of this brash statement.

[OEB]

A330 Capt resigned yesterday.

Another one is resigning Monday

The idiots choped yet another guy doing CT5 on the 400 and he's resigned on the spot and already left Hong Kong!!!!

Quote:"If you don't like it leave!"

Think that's 10% of the pilots resigned.

Response from management?

ABSOLUTELY ZERO!!!!!

The silence is deafening.

[IBTheseus]

Who was the bright spark on the B744 in control of CT5. Not someone that H.W. mentioned while declining KA's continued employment?

[IBTheseus]

Is that 10% for the year, or the last few months. I'll have noone to fly with soon:ugh:

[OEB]

This loss of trained professionals would not be tolerated in just about any other industry.

Management have been quite happy sitting back getting the cushy rosters, weekends and Xmas off, and all the perks not to mention the extra$ for years now.

When they are required to step in during a crisis, take action and justify their positions in the company and why they get the extra pay.

THEY CAN'T DO IT!!!!

They're blaming CX

[Fly747]

KA, melting down faster than the Arctic!
TW, You pay, We stay.

[junior_man]

News of the problem from BKK:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breaking_news/breakingnews.php?id=123054



Troubled Dragonair forced to cancel flights


Hong Kong (dpa) - Hong Kong's second-biggest airline, Dragonair, is being forced to cancel up to eight flights a day as pilots quit the airline in unprecedented numbers, the airline confirmed Sunday.


Six captains resigned within a week earlier this month, and 34 first officers or captains have handed in their notice in the last six months, say pilots who link the departures from the short-haul carrier to a dispute over rosters and pay.


On October 13, eight flights were cancelled - five between Hong Kong and Shanghai and two between Hong Kong and Taipei - with crew shortages cited as the reason in all cases and specifically cockpit crew shortages cited in two cases.


A year after its 1.5-billion-US-dollar takeover by Cathay Pacific, cancellations by the airline, which flies to routes around China and the region, are running at a rate of two a day, pilots say.


Pilots claim the resignations have been sparked by "bullying and intransigence," saying management have repeatedly refused to implement rostering agreements to ease the strain on pilots handling a growing volume of flights.


Dragonair, which has around 400 mostly expatriate pilots and operates around 100 flights a day, said in a statement Sunday that it was being impacted by a worldwide shortage of cockpit personnel.


A spokeswoman said that eight cancellations on October 13 were due to "crew sickness." The airline had already hired 57 new pilots this year and planned to hire 10 more before the end of the year and another 50 next year, she said.


One senior pilot who has been with Dragonair for more than 10 years said: "I have never seen morale so low. Pilots are leaving because they're thoroughly fed up with the management.


"We haven't had a pay rise for seven years, but it's not really a pay issue. We have asked for a roster agreement for years and years. Our union has provided two draft agreements, but management just look at them and nothing happens. The management are bullying and intransigent."


The pilot, speaking on condition of anonymity, said that eight cancellations in one day was unprecedented.


"It has usually been about two cancellations a day, but the situation is clearly getting worse," he said.


Dragonair pilots have imposed a contract compliance policy since March 2005 in their efforts to secure a rostering agreement, and a captain familiar with ongoing negotiations between the pilots association and management said talks were deadlocked.


Another senior pilot said: "The salary for a Dragonair pilot is no longer competitive because of inflation and the state of the US dollar, and the rostering situation has become untenable. With the increase in the flights schedule and the wet leased flights in China, some guys are doing 14 overnights a month, and they're just fed up with it.


"Our pilots are leaving to join Korean Air, Emirates and even Air China, which is offering postings based in Australia. In one week, we had six pilots leave - all of them captains."


A spokeswoman for Dragonair denied that the resignations were linked to the rostering dispute.


"There are currently more vacancies than there are pilots throughout the industry," she said. "Therefore, it is not surprising to see a degree of pilot turnover at Dragonair and many other airlines."


She said that talks have been ongoing with the Dragonair Pilots' Association "for some time" over issues including pay, conditions and rostering practices.


"We are awaiting a response from the pilots' representatives to our offer on the salary and benefits packages, which was made in early October," the spokeswoman said. "In addition, the company has formed a team to review the provision of some of the additional benefits provided to many of its pilots."

[Jose Jimenez]

I don't know if this has been said already (well, 5 pages is a lot to read!) but, management ought to take a look at what Gulf Air did to stop the exodus... pay rises of 50-70% or so...

Unfortunately, things at Cathay are not yet as dire, but... with NR mentioning that oil prices might make Cathay have difficulty "sustaining profitability in 2008," (yeah, right!), there are most certainly interesting times ahead for Cathay's pilots AND management!

:eek:

[Rice Pudding]

Cathay are very busy keeping their very own crew shortage under wraps. They simply don't have time or the inclination to be worrying about the KA problem.

This week alone they have lost 3 more F/O's. Many are now taking the lifestyle choice and passing up the command to remain on a base.

As of 2 months ago, 7 F/O's who were all within 6 months of a command opted for a permanent basing, and all as F/O's. The company has tried to talk them into staying in HK to do their command, but all have "declined" politely.

Part of the problem as I see it, is that many of us joined what we perceived was the best airline in the world to work for. And now, quite simply, it isn't the best any more. The have never treated us fairly. Now, fortunately, there are other options, and the most popular one is to be based in your home country, paid a good income, and work for an airline that treats you as human. Unfortunately that airline is no longer Cathay.

[Follow the Follow Me]

Hey Pudding

The thread is not about Cathay mate. How many of your captains are resigning by the way ? Percentage wise, our resignations are dire. Plus we made the papers.

Easy to fix too. Pay more money and buy the rostering team a computer.

[Dixi Normus]

This is going to be a snowball effect. The guys (gals) that are on the fence about staying at KA will be pushed over the edge by the upcoming roster chaos. People who normally don't call sick will start doing it because it is the only way to have a normal life. Have anyone tried to get a requested G day on the last roster?? Without a hefty pay adjustment and some good will gesture from L2, there might be more flats for sale in DB.

[nowaykashowmethepay]

Informed today from a level 2 that 2 more resignations this afternoon... 1 from the Hong Kong Airbus fleet and 1 from the B747 fleet.......

[The Management]

We at CX will take action when approiate. We are just deciding whom to keep. Which Managers have what it takes to be a Cathay Manager?

Do the current Managers have what it takes to dismiss 10-20 pilots to keep the rest in line (it is coming)! We are waiting to see.

If not resolved, the CX Management Team will have to step in. We now have seconded a reconnaissance Team to KA to assimilate the damage and see where the terminations will come. It may be Management and most definitely be pilots.

It is very easy to take over KA routes with CX pilots with our A330’s and B777 aircraft on the major routes. Some of the secondary routes may have to suffer until we get the KA situation under control but it is the long-term goal that we are looking at.

We have a superior training team, which will get the job done. Our CX pilots will enjoy flying to Beijing for the Olympics.

When KA Management cannot control their current group then we at The Cathay Pacific group will sort it out, guaranteed.

Here is to my bonus.

The Management

[checkedandset]

Management

I'm sure all the KA boys will be more than relieved that you can step in a take over Beijing and hopefully Shanghai too from KA, you will appreciate the controlling ! Good proving ground for all the new CX commanders.

Enjoy the delays and of course all the new ASR's that you will enjoy filing.

Don't CX have a crewing problem too ?

[Feather Boa]

The Management

I enjoy reading your posts, generally they are well thought out. I believe you're slightly off the mark with this one though.

Early 2008 KA will be drastically short of crew, so as ignorant as I believe The Management are, I do not believe they are stupid enough to take another 20 pilots out of the roster.
Aside from that I truely believe there is very little Management can do to threaten us or "keep us in line". We are really getting to the stage where one of the buckets is full..
As we all know there are jobs for us all in almost every part of the globe that we would wish to go, Uk Loco's are paying upwards of GBP100,000 and I understand commands at Jetstar are 2-3 years away for those that join now.
KA may have been a career airline 3-4 years ago, it is not now.
CX on the other hand still offers the guys the chance of basings and destination far more appealing than the filthy mainland places we are continuing to expand into.
How do you believe threatening a guy at KA with his job, is going to make him tow the line, when I suspect approx 25% of the guys are working on an exit plan anyway.

Fx

[nowaykashowmethepay]

Management.......

Oh please please take over PEK.... and make sure your boys are booked into the Landmark hotel for their lovely night stops........

[jagman]

For some time I've found Managements half truths quite amusing but now it's beginning to grate (exactly as he wants I'm sure).
Are the executives who are 'managing CX' so delusional now that they think the CX problem is so well addressed that they can simply move these brilliant minds sideways to KA and everything will be rosy? Is CX running like a well oiled machine? Not from where I am. In every department the input from Aircrew 'Management 'is woeful. They simply haven't got a grasp of what is going on. I can't think of anyone who even begins to have any leadership skills at all. They are the most despised group of people I have ever had the pleasure of avoiding.
Aircrew are fed up with being abused and intimidated. They will retaliate individually and collectively - they already are. How? People will either leave and go somewhere else, or maybe stay and just waste tons of fuel a day. Or go sick or refuse to 'help out' by working on Gdays. No chance whatever of extending an FDP. Why? How do you know how you will feel at the end of your extended FDP? You don't so it's unsafe so don't do it.
Stay guys - you can do more damage inside than outside.
Good luck Management. Enjoy while you can - our day is coming. Actually - I think it's here.

[Dan Winterland]

I've always found 'Management' to be a valid parody and a useful insight into how an alternative mindset could work. In his posts, he is always at odds with the mainstream and very confrontational. But recently, his posts have been ignoring the problems facing the CX group with no idea of how the world pilot shortage is going to affect them.

Just like the real thing! Keep up the good work Mr Management :ok:

[crewsunite]

Management this is a batting wicket - play but here you'll get hit for a six! :} Let’s say you represent PW. I'd be banking you bonus if I were you. Because u’ve got SH...T coming boy & it all your fault.

Same goes with Managers at KA - CX Managers will blame u for the KA Crew problems & u'll be on the street.

So why don't all managers buckle up and bowl line & line from now on since the pitch is hot. :8

There is plenty of business out there for us all to share. Get your teams behind you. Get pay & rostering together then attract the last of the remaining pilots out there. Order those additional 20 B777 for CX. And grow KA so we can fill all the last remaining slots before others do. :)

HK GOV & Public will try find fault esp. high ticket prices & delays etc. Why because we're a monopoly. So becareful bowlers this game will become very interesting if you bowl short deliveries. :eek:

As for folks leaving KA & CX well done on taking the courage. You're certainly booking your slots ahead of those that will be flowing. ;)

This is just a warm up. 2008 is a batting wicket guys. You might feel pressure with 11 to 2 on pitch. But watch those balls and smack the short ones. Enjoy:ok: Where have the bowlers gone where the bowlers gone!:D

[Truth Seekers Int'nl]

better get out of that office more mr management........there's a pilot shortage out here old buddy and it ain't getting better.........you wouldn't have the ballz to sack 20 pilots!!............plus your minder wouldn't let you do it...don't count on that bonus either....no pilots to fly your aircraft... means aircraft on the ground...means NO REVENUE!.....can you figure the rest out mr management or do i have to help you out again!;)

[Deske1]

There cant be a flightdeck crew shortage at KA.Have valid HK Licence with 744 rating,passed the 2 interviews this year,signed and forwarded the contract.......and 5 days before the commencment date e-mail comes.....Employment Offer withdrawn........3 days after I have resigned from my previous airline.......:D :D

Thanks a lot :yuk: :yuk:

[Lowkoon]

Deske, probably doesnt feel like it right now, but you are one of the luckiest guys I know! think of it as a lucky omen. There is another 744 operator in HKG that actually has growth plans! novel I know, but give them a call.

[Very Tired]

I hate to say it Deske, but there isn't exactly a dearth of information about KA and it's management style. If you ignore all the friendly advice and warnings about the way they treat people then you can expect very little sympathy.

As Lowkoon says, consider it a lucky break and try your hand at an airline that actually treats you as a human being.

[Trevor the lover]

Deske

You weren't a scab in your career past were you? A scab was once employed by KA before and he received the same letter 3 days before starting after he quit his job, sold his car and sold his whole house full of furniture.

Ditto on the other guy's comments - they did you a favour. Now maybe you will believe this 6 pages of stuff here that you obviously chose to ignore.
Take heed anyone else interested in this place - 6 pages here sums up the management of this airline pretty well. Deske chose to ignore all the friendly warnings and now seems upset at them for acting exactly in the manner which everyone had warned him about.

[Deske1]

I am too young to take anyone's position in a past industrial action,and my origin is from the EU,but flown some years in Asia.To tell the story in sequence,let say Interwiew1 as day1,
-interview2 on day30--(with the request to present a letter of resignation from current airline upon arrival to HKG)
-employment offer on day45-with the commencment date on day90
-signed and returned on day47,
-travel plan comes on day 60
-resigned on day 70 with no obj. letter from current airline-letter forwarded to DA,AS,TW
-employment offer withdrawn on day 75
-reply for my general Qs-(why?)-we dont give any info.........
And finally,job hunting from day75 till day110......
Roughly,thats my story with KA.......
All letters of release(3) were handled on day1

[vikena]

Thats a really tough station you got there Deske.

However I'm not surprised in the slightest and I know you may not see it like this right now but you are extremely lucky not to be employed in KA.

[Harbour Dweller]

All future applicants to KA should take note of Deske1's treatment.

Is this really an airline you wish to work for when there are so many other better jobs on offer.

[crewsunite]

:bored:
KA has some serious issues.
CX need KA to be successfull but have been too busy parting to realise what's going on.

They cannot keep their own show on the road successfully. :ooh: GMO just been fired..

CAD you had better give these operators a warning to pull them into line.
Refer to Swiss cheese article. :cool:

Emotional, stressed & overworked pilots in a difficult enviroment like in this part of Asia. Esp with bad SOP & a huge cockpit gradient with new joiners subjected to this stuff is a recipe for dissaster. I'm sure CX will follow at some stage. :\

This safety factor was one of the major reasons to pay more to employ more experience pilots (ie sacrifice seniority back home) etc.. now u have to scrap the barrel & still little interest. HK public pay a premium for that if an accedent were to happen & they find out what is starting to happen they'll be mad! :uhoh:

At a stage when u are printing money on these routes (basically a manopoly) Something seriouslly wrong with your planning.. :yuk:

KA & CX should be expanding together big time! & building up pilots not knocking back the culture. :ok:

[Flap 5]

Respect is not a term associated with KA management. GMP has always disliked pilots. An unpleasant piece of work. GMO is a bit part actor. A yes man for senior management. COO came from Air Hong Kong with a reputation for poor pilot relations.

The whole set up was bound to end like this. I am just surprised that you have all stuck with it for so long and others are willing to put their careers on the line to join KA.

It's all downhill from here.

[sawadecup]

Would somebody please tell me something about your package(basic, housing, education, gratuity, chinese new year bonus, medical, travel...etc, if any) at the moment given by KA, given all that poor conditions of work in there? Thanks a lot.:)

[Lowkoon]

Sure Sawadecup, all you have to do is apply, and they will tell you all about it in the interview. They will even give you a copy of the terms. I think if you bothered to read, no one is leaving for better terms, infact guys going for less than half. They are leaving for the reasons posted on the previous 6 pages. Feel free to read them then go to the wannabe section for recruitment details if you still think it is a good gig.

[Lowkoon]

Sorry Sawadecup, make that the previous 7 pages. My mistake.

[555orange]

Just call them and ask for it...

you could almost guess at it. probably about 80g usd yr for high experience FO. And I think they dont hire unless you have type right? Any dragon dudes confirm this? Plus housing allowance the the usual asian thing.

Alot of flolks thinking of working in Asia..when they add the house allowance think its a good deal. but remember, HK living long term..like many asian countries...is apartment living. If you want to have a family and have the highest standard of living...a western country is best. Do you really want to have a family in an apartment for the rest of your life? Think about it. Those that chose this route end up with an asset in their pocket maybe, but the paid a much higher price for it in my opinion.

We only live once! Go where your lifestyle will be best. Dont split hairs and go somewhere just because you#ll have a bit more pocket change.

My 2 cents worth?

[OldChinaHand]

The level of stupidity of some who hold Pilots Licences never ceases to amaze me.

How many ffffiiii#*nngggg posts have been produced here, on other forums informing the masses about resignations of dedicated professionals, due to poor pay and conditions, inept management, rock bottom morale, horribly polluted working environment and very little hope of improvement......and yet, they still apply and spend time and money attending interview. !!!!

Rostering........Hopeless...even under new CX manager it will still be the same KA managers messing it up.

Crewing..........Dont even know where to start.

Hong Kong......Eye, skin, lung infections due pollution. How many have sent the kids home because of asthma. How many have faced marriage difficulties because wife decides to bail out with the kids because of the bad air and they are left to sort out the massive mortgage.

Crew Hotels..How long have we been telling management about the poor quality of some Crew Hotels....Yes, they listen...but then we are still in them years down the road...one not so fondly known as the "skidmark" for the quality of its rooms.

Hong Kong Dollar.....becomes more worthless every passing day.

Wake up and smell the coffee guys, take it from an incumbant, it aint pretty.

[hbloom]

well for what it,s worth same here in Taiwan,resignations etc.no raise or any contract improvement as well yet half of total pay of hkg.we shall join you on your long march(to better jobs,enviroment etc)what field of employment demands so much yet pays so little now,who has a decrease in living standards not many !!time to just stop and let the cargo and passangers wait.we need so much,
good luck to all

[Lowkoon]

Think you just summed up 7 pages for everyone OldChinaHand. Anyway, why arent you at work????? :}

[Flap 5]

I think you guys are being charitable to sawadecup. I thought he must have been a wind up considering the subject matter of this thread. There is the wannabe forum after all. :hmm:

[OldChinaHand]

Sorry Lowkoon, I think you may have mistaken me for someone who gives a sh1t. I could not be bothered. :ugh:

Hey, Red Leader, bet there's plenty smoke from your ass now. :D

[Flap 5]

Oh now you are being disingenuous - he never was Red Leader! :=

[Millstream]

Pprune is big. It has reach. Despite the very obvious limitations (unverifiable comment), everyone reads it. Does anybody out there know a pilot that does not read it from time to time?

I have not met a single new joiner in recent years whose opinion of the company was not influenced to some extent by Pprune.

If I was in cx/ka management I would definitely spend some money on shoring up my reputation on Pprune. I would expect my PR people to be able to do that - its what I pay them for.

It seems obvious to me that they are lurking out there somewhere. Probably posting in this thread!

Milly

[blaireau]

Are wanted by Jet Airways and Kingfisher. If you have a B777 rating you can come this afternoon.

[A. Le Rhone]

The problems with KA do not seem to be comprehended fully at CX.

The CX DFO, repeating earlier words of Tony Tyler wrote yesterday "The long term plan for Dragonair remains unchanged - the aim is to grow the airline as a regional, short-haul operator in China and Asia with a
complementary route network to Cathay Pacific".

That is a problem, not a positive.

Many crew came to Dragonair (eg ex-Ansett) when they knew they could be based in Australia and would operate the A330 on basings. That was shot down after the take-over by Tyler.

In the year and a bit since that plan was terminated they have seen:

- Godawful, arrogant, head-in-the-sand and dismissive management getting amazingly worse (the only management mantra being 'if you don't like it f***-off).

-Stressful and tiring, repetitive flight operations into horrible destinations.

- Abysmal rostering practices (the GMO & GMA are only partly responsible for that, the buffoon who runs the section should have been dismissed many years ago). Productivity may not look good on paper to new owners but the stresses on families of being exhausted has been telling.

- Associated huge increases in divorces.

- Pollution killing their families at a faster (if you could believe it) rate than before.

- Plummeting US/HK Dollar (meaning they are far worse off if expatriates).

- Complete lack of company interest in improving T&C.

- Foolish set-up of 747-400 basing policy (GMO, against directives and the pilot union stance paid less than his Manchester base and has destroyed the operation - so many pilots have walked they face sidelining a newly delivered airframe, is this some perverse joke?).

What a way to run a business.

But CX need to be clear, removing the GMO and a few minions is only a small percentage of the problems that need to be addressed.

Even if the haemorraging of aircrew stopped today (it won't, the momentum is there now and the corporate advice of 'if you don't like it f***-off' has been heeded) KA faces a grim future.

Globally amongst professional pilots, KA (and increasingly HK) now has an appalling name and whilst CX may still attract pilots to their operation because of the attractiveness of bases, seconding them to KA will not appeal to pilots any more.

There is a great deal of work needed at KA, telling pilots they will be confined to pergatory forever as per the above missive is not a good start.

[And Then]

Tony Tyler's letter just lost another half dozen KA crews. It was insipid and uninspiring.

Steady the ship he bellows ?

[And Then]

Alright, I apologise Tony. A bit harsh. But give us a sign. :)

[jtr]

Please share And Then

[TheChitterneFlyer]

I 'walked' from KA two years ago and I've never looked back. It might well mean a drop in salary and an increase in local taxation, but what price can you put on your own health and sanity? The downward spiral just keeps on gaining momentum and the very poor management style has simply added energy to what was originaly an incipient spin. Originally, money wasn't the issue, but it 'sure as hell' is now; however, KA haven't ever recognised that they've abused their own crews with illegal rostering practices, and, certainly haven't inspired them with good leadership. There are now far too many issues to be addressed throughout the whole company and the damage is now done. L2 leadership just hasn't ever been in place, nor anyone with the balls to stand up and be counted. It's one thing to replace the GMO, but there's no point in giving any support to him unless the new incumbent is prepared to put his neck on the line and give some needed support to his troops!

I'd like to think that a new GMO would 'cut some slack' to his crews and give some good advice to the CEO... or, tender his resignation... which the last one should have done some years ago! It aint easy is it?

Good luck to all of you chaps :ok:... I sincerely hope that 2008 might bring some hope into your lives.

TCF

[Truth Seekers Int'nl]

..........i note the maggot (aka The Management) has not responded to my post of the 31st October...U C lads........... no BALLZ! he ain't gunna sack 1 pilot let alone 20.................the man ain't gor no culture....:mad:

[The Management]

Mr. Truth Seeker, you haven’t been around long have you? Not in the difficult times anyway, most likely after the dust ball was still in the air.

You have no idea what we are willing or not willing to do. If we have to sack pilots for the benefit of The Cathay Pacific Group in the long run, we will.

Pilot applications are stacked very high in recruitment. We will just lower our requirement i.e. hire from regional airlines instead to legacy carriers.

Young man, a little word of advice “Never under estimate the will of The Management of The Cathay Pacific Group”. You have been warned.

Most likely will never put your head above the parapet, but may ask others to do it for you.

Good luck with your career.

To my bonus.

The Management

[VR-HFX]

The Management

Me thinks ye hath lost the plot.

I can assure you that Tony is well aware of the dire straits that KA is now in.

Richard has carte blanche to protect the franchise. Expect some positive developments for without them the franchise is worthless.

[The Management]

Carte blanche, you are sadly mistaken.

Trust me; there will be no money involved. Let’s wait and see. Time will tell what our strategy will be.



To my bonus.



The Management

[Fly747]

Mr M, I used to like your posts but now you're getting irritating you'll be pleased to know. Unless more money is involved then the KA meltdown will continue. Then let's see who loses money.
KA is only a short step ahead of CX so they'd better use it as a learning opportunity.

[poydras]

to the management;
just out of curiosity, how much was your bonus last year??

Or it is a secret...............?????????????????????????

[bazbogan]

The Management
Young man, a little word of advice “Never under estimate the will of The Management of The Cathay Pacific Group”. You have been warned.

Sir, I do believe you have a very small winkie!

[And Then]

Time will tell what our strategy will be.

1) Free beers. ( meanwhile half a dozen more KA crews on interview )

2)...........?????????

Look The Management. We want to help. The demise of our GMO was rather vicious in a corporate sense. It is a lonely place when pilot attrition is apportioned to your watch. But 12% in six months is a basket case. He had to go. Thatcherite management practices are untenable.

If KA pilots keep leaving. And they will as pathfinders are already reporting back. It could be you who is uncermoniously dumped.

Two KA aircraft are parked. We want to help. :)

It could be you next. The Board is watching.

[DrunkenAir]

I can only sit back and laugh in disbelief. Management had been warned repeatedly of the problems facing the crews, yet they chose not to act. What was needed back then were some simple rostering rules and benefits that were, and are, the norm for an expat, as well as a little pay rise. Rather than improve the terms and conditions they let the HR dept loose on them and cut them so as to make KA less attractive. They did this so well that it is even unattractive to locals and ex-cadets.

So what is needed now? I would suggest that anything less than CX parity in salary, housing, education and other benefits might be too little too late. A rostering agreement is also essential. And discussions need to be held sooner rather than later on CX/KA crew integration. After all we don't want another ASL/VETA/CX Freighters fiasco.

As for The Management, thanks for the heads up on your possible plans. Let me repay the favour. In 1989 almost the entire pilot workforce of Australia fought for better terms and conditions. They didn't win. But neither did the Airlines. Of the 4 airlines involved none exist today, yet the majority of pilots, if not retired, are still flying.

CX was close to a similar situation in 2000. Then you fired 52 employees. That was smart - but look at the skeletons that came out of the closet and the issues that continue to affect, and cost you, even today. Try it again and you never know what things will surface. So my advice is not to try it again. The sores are still there and if you scratch too hard they will start bleeding.

In closing, I don't begrudge you your bonus. In fact we should all get one. But having dozens of planes on the ground is a sure way to reduce your bonus, possibly even your position.


Cheers
Drunkenair (hic)
:}

[sizematters]

So what is needed now? I would suggest that anything less than CX parity in salary, housing, education and other benefits might be too little too late


dreaming again ??

[missingblade]

Here's a challenge for NUMERO:

Try and calculate the damage done to KA by this current situation.
Quite a challenge to put in $$ the cost of goodwill, contract compliance, retraining/re-hiring, payouts, public image - loss of sales, cancelled flights etc etc.

[And Then]

Drunken Air

I would add that intimidation of the pilot workforce is more applicable to our CX bretheren. In the case of KA pilots, it is an obsolete management concept which would be quite difficult in application.

Why ? Financial and professional manoeuvrability. With undertones of apathy and disinterest: KA is a crap job, no future prospects and I can walk very quickly and easily in the present environment of a near zero pilot jobless rate.

[And Then]

dreaming again ??

Sizematters.

Are you too stupid to realise the disadvantage of having a lower professional cost base in your midst ?

KA will be offered multiples of your 3%. And they will still leave. Why ? Because they can.

And you ? Miserable and insecure. Take the 3%. :)

[sizematters]

Are you too stupid to realise the disadvantage of having a lower professional cost base in your midst ?


er, "andthen" what is it about Cathay's multiple pay scales that no-one told you ???? Swire will compare you with "American Eagle, or some other Feeder carrier and disclaim any comparison with other airlines just as they say "UPS, Fedex is not our competition in the freight market, and we pay based on what we think the US carriers would pay if they thought they could get away with it..................


yes you'll get a multiple of 3%...........like times one ..er ....= 3%

[checkedandset]

Sizematters

I dont think you quite get it - no-one gives a sh1t anymore, 30% probably would'nt do it. People are walking and will continue to do so - its not just the money anymore. We are fed up with the lifestyle or lack of it.

Bully-boy tactics will just make it happen even faster.

welcome back onboard ! :sad:

[gyro]

Err, Size m' boy..... Cx haven't paid 10 BILLION dollars for American Eagle.

[Lowkoon]

American eagle arent flying 3 class 330s either.

Funny how that arguement only works 1 way. Why arent we using that same arguement for our freighter fleets? What does UPS and Fedex pay? :hmm:

They guys are leaving for many reasons. The truth is 12% payrise would not have stopped any of them leaving. This is not a money fix. The only ones stupid enough to believe that are across the road. The only thing the money will fix is that the new hires might start turning up.

People are leaving for many other reasons. Some (senior FOs) because there is no future growth planned for KA. Tony and Nicks letter made that very clear. We may pick up another mainland destination or 2, but who would stay for that? We are under no illusions though, no one joined KA for the exotic destinations. There is no fleet progression, the disasterous HKRO saw to that. What must that have cost them??? Whats the bet most of them would have stayed if they could progress on to the 400 if they could stay on the agreed HKG package? You would have been killed in the rush to get on it. Also they left for lifestyle issues like no rostering stability, even when there were no aircraft on order they couldnt get the crewing numbers right. Does anyone still think there will be 20 commands next year? That might cover the guys going to CCA.

In short, Kenny had to clean the place out, the managers at all levels had been caught lying to him so many times. "Sure Kenny, we can crew the new destinations." "Sure Kenny, the freighter will be crewed and ready for the christmas increased schedule." "Dont worry Kenny, CC only affects a few trouble makers. We have it all under control". "Dont worry Kenny, its only a hollow threat, none of them will leave." "I was misquoted, I never told them if they dont like it to leave." and from leave dept, "We have a new leave allocation system we found at download.com that will improve the leave management, the crew will love it!" "No Kenny, its normal for half the fleet to be terminating before 8pm. Nothing to do with lack of crew, there may be a few troublemakers on sick leave, but they will be dealt with. Our passengers just dont like to fly at night."

Who can the poor bloke trust? Selling softdrinks would never have been this much fun! :)

[And Then]

Lowkoon

I agree that the first wave of attrition ( 12%) could not be a attributed to financial factors alone.

But the next wave(s) will. If pay isn't addressed shortly it will be fair indication of what the future holds.

Rostering will take a long time to fix. Money talks in the meantime!!

[Liam Gallagher]

"This is not a money fix|"

Strangely... this seems to be the view coming out of the big house across the road. What, if any, are the KA driver's initial thoughts on RH parachuting into KA house?

Whilst I don't imagine RH has a pot of gold in his nav bag; what things would you like to see. Some suggestions being mentioned around the campfire are a "CX styled" Roster Practices Agreement; the "prospect" of Integration with the CX Seniority List giving the "prospect" of Basings and commuter rosters. I use the word "prospect" because KA pilots going on CX bases in the near future doesn't solve KA's immediate crewing problems....... it makes it worse!

Having met RH a few times, one thing you will get is a measured and polite style of Management. I am sure he will give you the impression, at least, that you are being listened to and respected. Time will only tell how much power the CX Board has devolved to him to make meaningful changes.

So, assume RH reads these pages, what changes would you suggest?....

[And Then]

Guys will continue to leave and guys will continue failing to show. One recent Airbus course had one of four new joiners turn up !

Money is a very big factor. Especially with command prospects slowing. A KA FO wage is tough going and an unattractive prospect for the medium to long term.

I would like to help. :)

Could I please have J class travel on CX.

[Australia2]

1. Rostering
2. The constant attacks from personnel to make our lives more difficult.
3. Rostering
4. Rostering
5. I think you get the idea.
Have to agree with the above, I think it is almost too far gone.
The next "wave" about to begin, including Captains checked to the line less than twelve months.

Surely that indicates the depth of the problem!!

Oz2

[A. Le Rhone]

Basings.

Expatriates are beginning to comprehend that you can't raise children in the toxic cesspool that HK has now become, for many/most it already doesn't or soon won't matter how much you pay.

KA pilots are only leaving sooner than CX crew because their lifestyle is far worse, rosters appalling, divorces skyrocketing, flying stressful, management 1950's RAF-style, inadequate hotel accommodation and the salaries lower. The recent edict from CX that KA pilots will forever be condemned to fly regionally has also accelerated the desire of many to escape.

Immediate parity with CX pay scales may provide temporary relief but I suspect CX will also face the same issues of staff attrition too, should it not expand its own basings availability. Environmental issues are becoming paramount.

Pilots need to be able to do 7-9 days on and identical days off with confirmed J/F travel to/from a CX destination, the same will need also to apply to CX crew. There will also need to be some form of currency protection.

Inconceiveable now? It's not a 'big-ticket' item and will in all likelihood be the key to corporate success or failure.

[Allou dri]

KA now targeting 2 local young operater drivers, one stone kill 2 birds! Jet school for :mad: Sw re group, quick and much saver for quality guys to line.:ok:

[WTB]

Sizematters

Enjoy your 3%. An educated guess tells me we will be given a lot more than 3%. Reason? Pilots leaving (many of them Captains) at a faster rate than they can be recruited and services cancelled.

Mini Cooper

New services to Busan, Fukuoka, Sendai and shortly Kathmandu are all operated by KA aircraft and KA crews. What are you talking about? It's you that doesn't get it. The whole CX strategy for HKG is based on sucking revenue i.e. transfer pax out of China and booking them through Hong Kong on to the CX network. That's why they bought Dragonair - not the slots. The brand is well known on the mainland and as long as they sort out the mess at KA the big plan will work. If they don't KA will implode within 3-9 months. At that point the price paid for KA would look a little over the top.

Now I'm sure in the long term CX would eventually mop up the mess and would be happy to start a shorthaul network in China. But why would the Swire group do that when they have just bought one?:ugh:

The KA pilot group are quite happy to crack on with the job but only if we're getting a fair deal. If we don't get it we WILL leave. Reason? Most of us have got medium/heavy jet command time so it's easy. This isn't CX and we're not tied to a so called 'career'. We're here for one reason only - MONEY. At the moment the majority of the company are working on exit plans. I just hope for Cathay's sake it's not too little too late.

You lot over the road need to stop being so arrogant, you might find we are paid more than you shortly. After all, we work harder and fly to crap destinations in China - something you seem to aspire to........

[F-16]

Days off?

[Trevor the lover]

Vermin, Lowkoon, and a few other very vocal Ppruners,

You guys have been very very vocal for quite a long period of time now about how bad it is, particularly you Vermin. With all your talk of how bad it is, how there's jobs everywhere, how we can all walk at any time - just why are you guys still here????? You are easily the most vocal about how bad it is yet you're still here whilst other guys (12%) have just quietly gone off and voted with their hoofs. What ARE you waiting for???

[Ka-life]

F-16
An average month would give us 7-9 days off. Most of the time before you have day off you will finish between 2000-2300. Not so many early starts.
On 320 you might do 4 sector days but not on A330. Usually you do 5-6 days on with a few rosterchanges 1-3 days off and then the same again.
On A330 you will spend more than 300 hours away from base with no OT. The roster will change almost every 2-3 days so you can never make any plans.
Usually days are fairly long between 8-13 hours. Nightstops are bad with strange hotels in suburbs around in Asia with Cabin crew that don't want to meet up.
Overall the KA gig when it comes to roster is probably one of the worst but we do have more than 10 weeks leave a year. Most guys use some sickleave to balance lifestyle also.
Money is not so good any longer and thats why most guys are planning their exit.

[And Then]

Another for the wish list. The things that cost nothing. Is an end to the 'special rostering' for some. The guys that get the least overnights but somehow blessed with more standby days. Overtime is far from consistent.

I hear it is worse on the 320.

1- J Class ID 90

2- Equitable rostering and no special favours.

And everything the DPA asked for.

I want to help. :)

[Lowkoon]

Trevor, its sweet that you want to get to know me more intimately, but trust me big fella, Im not your type! :O

In all seriousness though, my family and friends know my plans for the future very well. If I have flown with you, then you probably know it too. I appreciate that your observations of life at Ka may differ from mine, feel free to post them here, give potential new hires a balanced perspective if you think thats what is missing from a thread titled "Resignations at KA".

If you dont like it you can leave right Trev? Sounds vaguely familiar... :)

[Trevor the lover]

Lowkoon,

1. What the hell are you on about, what is this "want to get to know you better rubbish." Just where have you dredged up that pearl from?

2. Thank you that you appreciate that I may have a different opinion to you regarding life at KA. I don't actually (which is why I at least have resigned) I didn't insinuate that. I AM insinuating that for a long time you have told the world how bad it is, but unlike me, you seem to be stickin' around. Of course you may be digging a tunnel out, that's not for me to know, but bloody hell, its taking a freakin long time.
As I said, I agree with most of the comments about KA, and I for one do not have any opinions to "balance" against these.

3. Yes, that old line, if you don't like it you can leave - the circle is complete, it gets back to the question to you on my post - for soooooooo long now you have told the world how bad it is and how we can all walk in the job rich environment, but you are still here.

4. I am sure we have flown together, or at least know each other well - and I am equally sure we probably like each other and get on like a house on fire.

Trev

[Trevor the lover]

Lowkoon,

As you know verbal intent is lost with the written word. I wasn't trying to impy if you don't like it leave - not at all. I was actually trying to get at your reasons for still being here - ie, kids two years to go in school, 500 more wide body command hours. Everyone does have their reasons.

Dan Buster,
Great post mate!

[Liam Gallagher]

Sorry to interupt the Lover's tiff....

but Ka-life; you say "more than 10 weeks leave a year"..... how many weeks leave a year do you get at KA?

[Australia2]

We get 6 weeks a year with the option to append days off to these periods.

The combination can then be approx 10 weeks max.

Nothing is free as we all know, and going without your days off for the remaining period can leave you wrecked prior to your leave. The company also has an unwritten policy of cramming a months work into the remaining weeks further adding to the fatigue levels.

[Liam Gallagher]

I thought that was the case as I had heard a Dragonair guy saying they could take a week off every month by taking 4 days leave and then appending 3 days off (G days) to it.

The CX guys in the conversation all looked at the bottom of their glasses as they had visions of an 8 day pattern followed by 3 days off followed by 4days leave and then a further 8 day pattern..... no wonder you guys are leaving.

Whilst not knocking the ability to append G-days to leave; G days can easily become leave days in the company's eyes.

[The Management]

What a novel idea!

To my Bonus.

The Management.

[DrunkenAir]

Liam,

Just to clarify the leave question, you should note that KA crews can bid for up to 10 lots of leave of 4 days to which the company will append 3 G (no duty) days. If one bids and is awarded this leave we can expect we will get roughly an additional 4 G days off for the remainder of the month.

That means a total of about 11 days off, inlcuding your 1 weeks leave, in a month, and you will still do either 70+ hours (320) or be away for 10 nights (330) for the remainder of the month.

And realise the fact that to be eligible to get this 'generous' leave you must bid for it prior to September the previous year. They then
allocate according to fleet/seat/seniority and a points system. Senior guys get around 6 or 7 periods approved while the junior guys get 2 or 3 approved, if lucky.

Oh yeah, and if you happen to miss out on bidding, or are employed after September so are unable to place bids, then your leave is allocated at their discretion, and usually with no consultation. In some cases the first you know of it is when it appears on your roster. Some guys only get 7 days notice!

And any leave can be used as part of the recovery and min rest periods between flights. And there is no guarantee of additional G days appended to any leave allocated you.

Still sound OK??

Don't just take passing comments around the bar as Gospel, and look into the claims fully before you make any grandoise judgement.

Cheers
Drunkenair (hic)
:}

[Liam Gallagher]

"Don't just take passing comments around the bar as Gospel, and look into the claims fully before you make any grandoise judgement"


Just so we understand each other... no grandoise judgement, but one of your colleagues (KA-life) stated he gets 10 weeks leave, which on first pass, sounds good. Clearly, his view of what constitutes leave is different from mine (and I suspect yours).

Whilst the scheme assists people to get a block of days off per month, (which I applaud) it comes at a heck of a cost.

"Still sound OK?" It didn't sound OK the first time I heard of it, hence the reason myself and the others looked into the bottom of our beer glasses and the reason our astute friend The Management has shown some interest.

[Fly747]

And don't forget that the 42 days a year leave includes the bank holidays which pilots are rostered for like any other day, what, 10 a year? So 32 days is less than 5 weeks. As with everything in life it depends how you look at it.

[A. Le Rhone]

abc1....So how many of you guys would actually do something about it and leave....

Oh, about 12% of the pilot workforce in the last 3 months with more to come.

Is that enough for you?

[boocs]

I'm surprised no-one has mentioned that another KA 330 Capt resigned this week.....:confused:

I can only guess that it's not really news anymore but commonplace.

b.

[OldChinaHand]

Its been very quiet since some muppets got "free drinks" Boocs. Alas now the honeymoon is over. In the bible the Saviour healed the sick, In KA the one they believed was the saviour "sacked the sick". That was excellent timing Dick. As the Mai Tai`s et al were being savoured by the those who graced Dick with their presence, Pilots on long term sick leave were being terminated.

Next step, retire the clasic freighter fleet 11 months earlier than planned. Crews were told by an email confirming a "Rumour". For the FE's, years of loyal service thanked with a "rumour confirmed".

Now the "new Dawn" has been realised. There is no magic bullet. There is no Roster improvement, There is no pay offer on the table. There is just talk, stalling, playing for time and the last few scraps of meat being sliced from the KA Carcass.

And lets not forget the freindly advice being meted out out by KA senior managers "Whatever you guys do, dont turn down the companies offer". Realisation is sinking in amongst the troops, resignations are gearing up again.

[Frogman1484]

CX did not go to fix Dragon, they only went to "Find Out why they are leaving". It is rumored that after 3 weeks they still cannot figure it out!!!

They cannot believe that someone is not prepared to work for nothing just because they are Cathay!!!

Nick has spoken at Kitty city saying that if we give them a big raise we are going to have to give one to everyone else.

So guys do not expect CX to come with a better offer because they will not...cannot set the precedent!!!

[Follow the Follow Me]

This time next year things will be worse for KA pilots.

I will resign within months. Depending on offers forthcoming.

Good luck all.

[Buttie Box]

The logic really does escape me. "You can't have something because someone else can't have it."

SO?!

For example, we weren't allowed to jump seat on the freighter because it was a benefit another group weren't allowed.

I'm normally a dispassionate poster but do they really think we're daft?

BB

[BScaler]

When B-Scales were introduced at Cathay in 1993, the term 'Market Forces' came to the fore. It suited the bean counters back then to blame the introduction of B-Scales on the rules pertaining to 'Market Forces'.

It appears that when 'Market Forces' come back to bite them as they are now, they look to disown the term with every excuse they possibly can.

They make the rules, they bend the rules they made, and then they flat out just seem to want to break them.

The guys leaving KA, (and the guys and girls leaving Cathay...), are showing the Company the true meaning of 'Market Forces' - but so far it appears that the Company doesn't really want to learn the lesson.

[Feather Boa]

"Its been very quiet since some muppets got "free drinks" Boocs. Alas now the honeymoon is over. In the bible the Saviour healed the sick, In KA the one they believed was the saviour "sacked the sick". That was excellent timing Dick. As the Mai Tai`s et al were being savoured by the those who graced Dick with their presence, Pilots on long term sick leave were being terminated."
OCH

Get off your high horse.

Muppet

Fx

PS. has this not been discussed on the DPA site

[Arrowhead]

Interesting to see that some of the BS that has afflicted us just on the west side of the PRD (mgmt, pay, no-growth strategy) has spread to the east side. We are up to 16% of pilots lost so far this year, so it sounds like we need to work a little harder to catch up with out traditional lead.

Admittedly the rostering here is not so bad, but we do have an abnormally high proportion of psychotics (both Capt and FO), so cockpit atmosphere is frequently abysmal. So dont bother coming, frankly.

And now to my point. We are replacing losses with endless supply of Aussie turboprop drivers, and are currently rapidly losing guys to Etihad (A320).

Conclusions:
1) KA will have no problem hiring guys (albeit with no Bus experience, but who cares so long as it flys, right?:ugh:)
2) If you cant stomach India (literally or not), then there is a big career airline with multiple types, routes, lengths, which is building up an A320 fleet. ...But you do have to live in the land of sand.

[DrunkenAir]

One more gone!

Off to the sandpit, and I believe more to follow now that commands have blown out even more.

Cheers
Drunkenair (hic)
:}

[whatsforlunch]

F/O or Captain?

[Follow the Follow Me]

Dragonair. Don't come unless you have to ! Sad that an outfit with a good bunch of people at the coalface is spiralling so rapidly.

A newjoining FO is taking a considerable professional risk by joining. Why ? Command prospects are blowing out by years as more bad news follows. Classics going. 400F going. Expansion slowed. Flights cancelled with possible damage to the brand. Many more flights to be cancelled as attrittion hits hard and those left are demoralised and questioning their own reasons for staying.

The biggest risk is that Cathay, a few years down the track, absorbs the operation. Leaving the poor sods left with broken promises and " To the bottom of CX senioirty list you go ".

Cathay has shown nothing, absolutely nothing that suggests that KA pilots will get anything but a shafting. Their only concern is if resignitions become ridiculously disorderly. They may then have to write down the the embarassingly high price they have paid for Dragonair.

As much as we need folks at the moment. Be careful.

[Outtahere]

Whats for lunch, while it may have been 'Capt or FO' earlier today, by now it is highly likely to be 'Capt & FO'. Today & every day this week I suspect. The great communicator seems to have adopted the KA standard very quickly- that is to communicate by rumour, a common trait of all dysfunctional organisations.

[Loopdeloop]

is the answer Orange?

[Kitsune]

Have the resignations stopped? Has Big Dick won you all over? :eek:

[DrunkenAir]

This thread has been quiet for some time as we give "the new boys" time to digest what is required to fix the problems at KA. Their offer is due this week.

We will just have to wait and see if they are smart enough to fix it.

That being said, I know a lot of work is still being done by the lads in looking at other options. EK still high on the list of prospective employers as are the stretched Oz operators.

Stay tuned!

Cheers
Drunkenair (hic)
:}

[Fly747]

He is a very nice man. He has bought a round. We all like him. There is no more problem.

[Lowkoon]

50 commands you think?... 8 advertised for April... Wont even cover the captains leaving in January... What am I missing here? Are we going to not renew some aircraft leases or something? Or are they expecting the FCS guys to come flooding back to KA, after they reject going across to CX? Surely there is a plan somewhere? What do they have to review with the cancelled command courses? Whether there will be any FOs left to upgrade? EK must be thanking TW for the boost in their applications recently... Enjoy the sandpit guys, at least they have plans to move forward, not reduce services in the fastest growing market on earth. God help us. :hmm:

[sergiokl]

Hi Lowkoon!
Just curious (http://dict.leo.org/ende?lp=ende&p=eL4jU.&search=curious), since I read some of your posts recently. Because there is nothing good about HKG and KA just wondering for whom do you work? And if it is KA/CX aren´t you leaving for something way better???
Cheers Sergiokl

[Lowkoon]

Sergiokl, feel free to pm me if you are that interested in my personal details. I dont see too many people laying out their personal details and plans for the future on prune. I dont intend to be the first.

There are a couple of ways you can effect change. You can quit, or you can work within the system to make it better. For KA to improve, we need both of these. The guys that stay, owe those that left, or are leaving, alot. Without those guys voting with their feet, nothing would happen. Be under no illusion though, those guys that left, all stand to gain from leaving too. Either in quality of life, or getting to see there families, or avoiding a divorce, or just getting to go home. Not even going to touch on the health aspects, this is about resignations at KA, not the !!!! we have to breathe here. see other posts for that.

Also, if there weren't guys working to improve terms and conditions from within the company, the efforts of the guys leaing would be in vain, we would probably just get the same as CX. 3%, take it, like it all lump it style. Thanks to the hard work of a lot of guys who want it to change, but want to stay, we will see improvements. It is very short sighted to infer that the only course of action available to us is to leave.

Feel free to point out where my observations of KA and HKG are wrong, and we can have an open, unemotional, impersonal constructive discussion.

[DrunkenAir]

Hey Lowkoon

It seems we will have a lot of people to thank for voting with their feet. My intel tell me that the offer was so poor that the committee could not endorse it which is why KA went back to the drawing board and we are still waiting for the "back on board" offer.
This poor effort by management will only escalate the need and want of crews to get out of here.
Who knows we may even have to thank oursleves!

Cheers
Drunkenair (hic)
:}

[SlimShadey]

A Knight Templar had been done in..what better offer do you think the Round Table is going to offer? Remember, it wasn't the money in the first place ..according to the training captain that resigned...

[Lowkoon]

And that training captain was right. The money wont stop people leaving. Guys will leave if the pay is increased it for A scale. The guys are leaving because they hate the job, and they are leaving for lifestyle improvements. FOs are also leaving because the company is shrinking in the most dynamic business environment that aviation has ever seen. Not a healthy sign. Locals are leaving because they are treated like second class citizens.

KA have to up the money to attract new hires. Thats there real problem. People leaving, and no one applying to replace them.They are offering an average package for a job with no growth pospects, thats the issue they need to fix.

[DrunkenAir]

:= Sorry guys, but I tend to disagree.

'A scale' salary will resolve many of my problems, and those of other crew. No-one objects to working hard if getting paid enough.

Show me the Money.

Cheers
Drunkenair (hic)
:}

[Lowkoon]

I wouldn't knock back A scale pay either, no one would, but having spoken to most, if not all the guys leaving, most of them stated they wouldn't stay even for A scale if there was no improvement on lifestyle,and the beligerant bully boy management style that exists. How much harder are you prepared to work for no improvement in rostering and late finishes and early starts surrounding single g days, and unlimited ability to extend your duty on arrival back in hong kong? Considering any payrise will be erroded by inflation and currency depreciation easily by the end of the term of the next agreement, if not already. Would this get you out of CC?

You will be ok if you are prepared to buy food from wet markets grown in the mainland. Oh hang on, their inflation is running at 4% per quater too, thanks to some pig ear disease. Delightful. :hmm:

Merry Christmas everyone! :)

[TheChitterneFlyer]

I voted with my feet in 2005... four years was all I could stand of KA's management delivery. The schoolmaster told me even then that I couldn't expect any improvement to my own 'percieved' crap lifestyle; night after night of transporting rubber dogsh1t between Shanghai and Honkers... interspersed with more nights out of bed between Taipei and Honkers; a schedule that was supposed to return into HKG at 0055L. Only about 10% of my TPE trips got back on schedule, but it was OK to carry on continuously with being late returning because it didn't count as a night sector! Yeah, right... add to that recipe some rest periods of 18 to 30 hours and you very quickly discover how tired you are. I did go sick and my doc gave me a week off, but management insisted upon a second opinion... that second opinion from the senior medical man in HKG sent me away for up to six months! True to form, crewing delighted in telling me that as per the Vol.8 that I couldn't leave the country whilst on sick leave! The senior doc soon sorted that out for me and shipped me home for some R&R. However, I had to agree to providing a weekly update to the company (KA) as to my own considered fitness to fly! CC telephoned me every other day to quiz me about my considered fitness to return to flight status... all that with a sick-note from the senior HKG medical man; it beggars belief? I happened to be in a remote area for several days where my mobile wouldn't recieve any service; however, when I did get back with signal range... I got a bollocking for missing my weekly diagnostic report!

By all accounts... nothing much has changed since my departure; however, even considering that I took a flying job that paid me 20% less than KA and that I had to pay a considerable hike in income tax... wild horses (and a payrise) wouldn't drag me back to KA.

I've had a fantastic flying job back here in the UK where my manager's have been both considerate and polite. I've had every weekend off (public holidays included) and I've worked with a bunch of great people. I'm relaxed, fit, and well, and, I look forward to going to work on a Monday morning; whatever the weather! I've now hung-up my flying jacket, but I'm about to make a move to a sunnier (tax free) climate and export some of my aviation knowledge to pilots with 'L' plates... maybe see some of you guys in DXB?

I've never regretted my exodus; there is a life beyond HKG!

Take care 'yall. Oh, yes, and I don't have to keep the Vol.8 down the back of my trousers anymore!

[Big Night Sky]

The reasons people are leaving are wide and varied. There seems to be 3 core reasons 1) Salary 2) Lifestyle/rostering 3) Pollution.

Each will use one, or all of the above depending on how they feel on the day. For example, one poor chappy cited pay as the main reason for going back to Oz, but then decided that it was actually for the sake of his childrens health. I'm not saying for a minute that your families health is not important, but I think some get a bit confused with the exact reason for them leaving. The same guy said he'd probably stay if they gave us all A scale! In fact, many have said the same thing, going as far as saying that they would do anything that the company asked them!

The same guy above has hated HKG from day one, but thought it was ok to keep his family here long enough to get his gratuity! All for your families health? Yeah right...

[Flap 5]

All you have proved Big Night is that there are a multitude of reasons to leave KA. :hmm:

[Big Night Sky]

Yes, that's right. Just pointing out that for some it's all really about money, despite what they may say.

[DrunkenAir]

Each resignee has his/her own reasons for leaving.

But if you look at the resignation rate of A scale against B scale you will see a much higher percentage of resignations in the latter. I would suggest a B scale resignation rate of around 1500% greater than A scale (15-1).

So, if the companies do wish to reduce their crew losses then all they have to do is pay. That will also attract more experienced crews to apply for vacancies so that crewing numbers can be incresed, and we can all get that long sought Rostering Agreement.

Only then will all be fixed.

Cheers
Drunkenair (hic)
:}

[A. Le Rhone]

Yes Drunkenair exactly correct. Fixes aren't that hard for the 3 core problems Pay, Rosters and Pollution

1) Increase the pay. Pay or Park.
2) Fix the rostering. No more single sectors to crap hotels for hours on end, with crap transport in awful locations.
3) Have a proper basings/commuting package. Even Air China recognise they need to do this to get the correct crew.

[Flap 5]

I'm amazed there are any A scalers left! Considering there is no unfair dismissal in Hong Kong as long as they give you your 3 months notice I am surprised they haven't sacked all of the A scalers!

[Lowkoon]

Time to crank this one up again, with a couple of senior captains pulling the pin this week, and quite a few more to go. Good luck gents, who's going to train the new blokes? :) Cathay?

[ka500]

The departures from the freighter are about to get into high gear, with all the leaks and rumours going around. Most guys are very unhappy with the uncertainty about the future, combined with a poor pay increase and no lifestyle improvement. :uhoh:

[Lowkoon]

With the managers leaping off the freighter at the rate they are, cant be too comfortable for the line guys... As usual, they are the first to know, and the first to jump. Plenty of slots on the bus. All the freighter guys coming back to hkg will be interesting. That will have the senior FOs who havent dusted off their resumes yet, off to buy printer cartridges.

Nothing like suddenly dropping another 50 - 100 seniority numbers from a command overnight to have you looking elsewhere. Especially when you realise there are no new airframes until 2012, "but only if we can crew them." Suddenly 4 years away from a narrow body command. WOOOOHOOO! Think what you could do with that 320 command on the open market! Plenty of LCCs dying to snap you up. :hmm:

[gliderboy]

HKGPEK1

Is that fact what you state or rumour?

Not being smart but I haven't heard about the exodus from freighter to airbus.

Gliderboy

[Fly747]

It's still all rumour, nothing has been passed down to the troops yet.
A robust defence of our rights by the DPA appears to be stalling things.
Big problems re seniority and who ends up where and in what fleet and in what company and in what seat etc etc.
We had a nice happy little base at MAN until TW demonstrated his management skills. New man then shows how much better CX are at the job!!

[Outtahere]

And to top it all off, TW gets a newly created T/IRE position in MAN (the shrinking base) on the B744 fleet (the state it is in being largely attributable to his incompetence). It appears Cx have still not fully grasped the problems at KA.

Be interesting to see whether the A scalers being sent back to the Airbus fleet keep their training positions- wouldn't want to upset them by taking that away despite their being some of the poorest trainers KA have in their ranks.

[OldChinaHand]

I think TW will have a lot of companionless meals down route on the freighter. He will not find many friends.

No need to send the A scalers back to the Bus, I hear the scramble to run back has already started !

[dragon501]

Just love all the RUMOURS here....

Hope u freighter blokes will be ok ;-0


Otherwise atleast come to HKG and get an airbus endorsement b4 u goooo

[And Then]

The KA Safety Dept has been set back of recent. Big mistakes being made by the interim CX team!

[DrunkenAir]

The rumors are very close to the truth.

CX do not want the classic boys to come to HKG and want to put them at the bottom of the CX list and allow them to keep their basing. It will put every FO back by around 8 - 10 yrs as they will need to start climbing the SNY list again. Capts will be offered rapid uprade to command, but that has not worked well for many in the past, with high failure rates in the CX system.

And consider that many MAN based guys want to come to HKG to get a bus rating. But they will then promptly dissapear back to the EU when they have that rating, earning as much or more than what they could in CX.

The new management, supported by the AOA Pres (who desperatley needs a win) simply want the DPA to accept the deal and roll over.

Well guess what - THAT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. And if they try to force thier hand then the only ones to win will be the lawyers. Oh yeah, and the other airlines who are short of crews.

Cheers
Drunkenair (hic)
:}

[dragon501]

Fact of the matter is that all FCS guys (no more gals there..) have the right to bid (and have to be rewarded) for an Airbus rating whether CX/KA like it or not... And yes, of course they will bugger off to a (decently) paid European job if they wish so, so?

The CX seniority list is great (not) but that would mean that KA airbus drivers will be junior to the freighter boys when they are send over to the dark side in a matter of years... Now THATS interesting........:rolleyes::rolleyes:


I don't think this will be an easy one AND the DPAC won't roll over.....


Cheers boys, shame the era of 3 men 0.84 comes to an end.......

[BusyB]

Drunkenair,

What makes you think the AOA has any input at all? I suspect someone is taking their name in vain!:confused:

[dragon501]

The AOA has nothing to say in CX let alone in KA.....

[DrunkenAir]

BusyB

Nudge Nudge Wink Wink!

Cheers
Drunkenair (hic)
:}

[OldChinaHand]

Dear all,

Rumours by management and management by rumours shall continue. This is not a management strategy, it is due to the fact that old rumours are now inexplicably entwined with new rumours and underpinned by lack of fact because of so much fiction. When the facts are known I shall advise all, but in the meantime please do not pay attention to rumour. All your jobs are safe, its just that we are not sure who will be doing them. As soon as we know, you will be informed, by colleagues, bar conversation, flight deck chatter or if all that fails, by leaky managers. In the meantime I would like to thank you all for the professionalism shown by you. Pity we cannot emulate same.

Have a great weekend.

[Fly747]

Why you go so slow 501? Must be on EFP. 87 the norm.

[AnQrKa]

The next big thing at KA is the integration with CX, set to be complete within 12 months.

KA crew to keep current seat but datal seniority.

Should be fun.

[ACMS]

ANQRKA: you really expect all of us at CX to let KA Pilot's get datal seniority on our list??????????????????????????

Tell him he's dreaming...........................


This is a wind up isn't it?

[chards]

And you think we will have a say ACMS???

[Mr. Bloggs]

This is going to get NASTY!!! Just watch and see.:ouch:

[Loopdeloop]

Given that the pilots from CX's other wholly owned subsidiary joined at the bottom of the seniority list just 30 days ago I think it unlikely that the KA pilots will get a better deal.

[Very Tired]

ACMS climb down from your soapbox and read the other thread title "KA to implode"

No seniority for KA pilots coming to CX. You will have to resign from KA and join CX on COS 08 at the bottom of the list. I'm sure you think that is just fine and dandy but in a private reflective moment, just consider what your reaction would be if it was the other way round.

Oh and by the way, under UK law (TUPE), stripping seniority in a merger or takeover is illegal, no matter how great you think are.

[Fly747]

We will fight the TUPE corner I'm sure.
In the meantime how will CX freighter FOs feel about 30+ MAN based CX freight commands now being offered to KA captains?
We are being told we join at the bottom of the seniority but with rank and pay point protection as long as we pass the rapid exit command course!
I guess we join under CoS 08, for FOs does that mean we fly pax too?
I would suggest that a lot of grief could be avoided if all KA pilots (MAN and HKG based) were just put on a common CX/KA seniority list from the date of the take-over. In addition all pilots KA or CX should be able to bid for any position within the "Group" with suitable provisions for current rank and pay.

[dragon501]

My suggestion? ALL freighter pilots to bid for the Airbus... Now I would like to see what happens then. All for the laughs hahahahhahahahaahahahaaha

[AnAmusedReader]

It would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

You are right tho Dragon 501. They should ALL apply for the Airbus. Lots of the guys in MAN say they don't want to go to HKG but for some short-term pain they would have much more longer term gain. Having the Bus on your licence is good to have in Europe nowadays.

PS I'm told that RH and KA CEO have sent out letters. Has anyone seen a copy?

[Lowkoon]

Letter has been sent to all crew, and can also be viewed on DPA website.

[Karrupted]

To All KA Crew,

The unmitigated, management-inspired disaster that is unfolding on the KA FCS operation requires a coordinated and determined response from all company pilots. The derisory 'solution' as promulgated by our new GMO is being packaged as a fait accompli without even an attempt to address the serious implications for our seniority system, or any reasonable recognition for service in KA.

Perhaps CX assumes that KA pilots will follow the AOA lead and roll over without even a whimper ... :=

In the meantime,

PLEASE WITHOLD ANY EXPRESSIONS OF INTEREST AND COMMUNICATIONS WITH KA MANAGEMENT UNTIL THE DPA CAN FORMULATE A CONSIDERED COURSE OF ACTION WHICH RESPECTS AND PROTECTS OUR RIGHTS AND CONDITIONS OF SERVICE.

Without a doubt, CX is trying to rush this sham through. The DPA has had no input into this decision and management has ignored our protests. However the CX group can ill afford to lose any pilots, let alone the experience within KA, and they need to realise that far from expanding the group, their narrow-minded actions will accelerate the resignations.

It makes me wonder how they ever got as far as they did ...:uhoh:

More soon.