Money well spent.

[Mr. Bloggs]

Take a look at the HKAOA financial statements released last week:

HKD10.5mil received from members in subscriptions and entrance fees.

General Secretary expenses were HKD2.114 million!!

So 20% of the money pilots paid to the AOA last year went
to General Secretary expenses. That's outrageous. Looks to me
like Findlay gets more than the B scale Captains in this Company.

Please forward on - this needs to be raised at the AGM.

So this email has been making the rounds. so who will present this at the AGM?

IMHO, the money can be spend else where, maybe on Lawyers to stop freighter contract abuse.

Comments?:ok:

[Harbour Dweller]

General Secretary expenses were HKD2.114 million!!

A lot of questions are being asked about this.

What does the General Secretary possibly do to justify this?

Anyone?

[jed_thrust]

Harbour Dweller and Mr Blogs,

Given that this info is being circulated by email, it is entirely possible that neither of you are members.


In that case, I can only assume that you are stirring...
If, however, I am wrong, then why don't you simply trot down to the office and have a look at the breakdown of those expenses?


Apathy is one thing, but sitting in front of your computer asking someone else to do this ON YOUR BEHALF is supreme laziness....
:=

[Night Watch]

jed_thrust well said!

As an association all expenditures are completely transparent and available to all members.

[BusyB]

Apart from the fact that I object to getting anonymous "spam" emails from someone purporting to be my colleague, I find that the information in it is deliberately misrepresented to such an extent that it is a deliberate lie.
Please go and check for yourselves, apart from clearing your mind on this it will give an idea of the sort of people actively working against the AOA.:confused:

[404 Titan]

I think you will find that those in the CPU that stole the AOA members list and private e-mail addresses about three years ago and continually bombard both my private and GroupWise e-mail addresses with crap are behind this e-mail that has now been received by most members of the AOA???? It is also public knowledge that a former AOA president who was a founding member of the CPU is on public record as referring to JF as that f*****g p***k.

[Freehills]

General Secretary Expenses =/= one person

Expenses =/= someone's salary.

The expense to any firm or organisation of a staff is much higher than the salary. Pensions, insurances, payroll taxes, allowances (in HK, these can be significant)

[Numero Crunchero]

I have also received these unsolicited emails. I have also received the one saying that CX was prepared to offer so much more but due to the ineptitude of the negotiators only a token amount was offered! If only that were true - you can waste your time finding out how much better paid other airline pilots are and save me the time and effort next time!

Now, onto the AOA staff. I am not willing or able to disclose too much due to data privacy. Lets just say that the package our gen sec is on is equivalent to a SFO.

The AOA's biggest expense is LOI insurance. If we gave up on insuring our members we could get subs reduced from 1.25% to about 0.8%. If we could get the staff to work for free then we could reduce subs from 1.25% to about 0.9%. Is 1.25% that onerous?

Our staff are competitively remunerated. Given the itinerant composition of AOA GCs over time, it is imperative that the AOA 'corporate memory' is sustained by retaining our staff over time. Our staff costs equate to about 35% of total expenses. Total staff costs at CX equate to 19% - but then they have fuel, leasing, route operating costs etc whereas we don't.

If you want a video club we can get rid of our staff and have calls diverted to an indian call centre. If you want a professional AOA that is constantly fighting rearguard actions protecting our rights, then you have to pay for it. Our gensec has been here longer than I have - more importantly he has been involved with all negotiations over that time. And unlike the 19 of us that volunteer our time, he is always available to give you advice on a range of issues.

I suspect these emails are sourced from CPU members who have had run ins with the GenSec. The GenSec and I often disagree but we respect each other's opinions. We both always have the general memberships interest's at heart.

I find this spam email campaign cowardly and mischievous. If you have a viable or practical alternative then offer it. If not, concentrate on getting CPU membership up from your 10 or so to at least triple digits. Then maybe you can send the emails to your own members for a change!

[404 Titan]

As NC has said, JF is on the same gross salary as a first year “B” scale SFO including base salary, housing and provident fund. To put an exact figure on Pprune isn’t kosher but for those in doubt his package comes within HKD$107.60 per year of a year one “B” scale SFO. Still don’t believe us? The figures are freely available on the HKAOA web sight under “Financial Statements 21Jun07[1]”.

I think this scurrilous spam e-mail has thoroughly been blown out of the water for what it is. A dishonest lie. Those that do bring it up at the AGM will be exposing themselves as someone that doesn’t do their homework properly.

[tfa456]

Re-crunching:

Total Gen Sec Expenses = HKD2,114,793
Total AOA Income = HKD10,751,979

(Percentage = 20%)

Gen Sec Salary: HKD1,349,382
Senior B Scale Captain Year 6: HKD1,337,400

Titan - excuse my ignorance but where is the "dishonest lie"?

[Numero Crunchero]

B scale CN in HKG on year 1.
$98K a month in salary
$5K a month in HDP
$15K a month in PF
$98+15K for 13th month
$0-$200K a year for Education
Free medical
$48-80K a month in housing depending on whether he buys or rents.
That adds up to $2.07-$2.49million not counting education or medical.

The Gensec had his salary and housing combined in a package several years ago. Since that time our housing allowances have increased over 20-30% whilst his salary/housing package has not.

If you have an issue please get your numbers straight, then argue it logically. And please take me off your spam email list - I already know I am an incompetent negotiator - I have an ex wife who tells me all the time - so lets just assume I accept that without my presence at negotiations the pilots would have been awarded at least 50% payrises!

[404 Titan]

tfa456

As you have elected to bring out into a public forum confidential information only available to AOA members, I will give you a lesson in mathematics as you seem challenged in that department. Before we start though there are a few rules that must be obeyed:

Rule 1: Only compare apples with apples.
Rule 2: Always follow rule 1.

General Secretary’s personal income

$1,349,382.00 + (Base Salary & Housing Allowance)
$194,902.00 (Provident Fund Contributions)
$1,544,284.00 (Total)


Year 1 “B” scale SFO’s personal income

$838,248.00 + (Base Salary)
$576,000.00 + (Housing)
$129,928.40 (Provident Fund Contributions)
$1,544,176.40 (Total)

Difference between GC & Y1 “B” scale SFO

$1,544,284.00 – (GC)
$1,544,176.40 (SFO)
$107.60 (Difference)

[BusyB]

tfa456,

Would you mind sending £500,000 to my Nigerian bank account.

You seem to believe others without bothering to check your facts. Why others have the patience to spoonfeed those too lazy to check for themselves is beyond me.:mad:

[geh065]

$1,544,284.00 (Total)


F*** me!!!

[sizematters]

More importantly..................as we always trot out...........

"pay peanuts.............you get monkeys"


do you really want a chimp negotiating your COS ???

[tfa456]

Apples with apples.

General Secretary Prov Fund contribution: HKD194,902
B scale Senior Captain Year 6 Prov Fund contribution: HKD207297

Housing, education, travel etc. Cannot compare an apple with an apple if that apple is not in the contract.

Better still:

What does the General Secretary of BALPA get paid?

To disagree with the Committee types in this forum is apparently to morph into a cowardly, scurrilous, spamming, CPUing, dishonest lier. Unfortunately that justs reflects poorly on the calibre of some of those Committee types.

Why not encourage the debate amongst the membership, after all we pay the bills and not all agree we're getting value for money.

[7FF]

do you really want a chimp negotiating your COS ???

Eerr don't we already have that?

[404 Titan]

7FF

If that’s the case have you put your hand up to be a negotiator? It really pisses me off to see these so called armchair experts criticise those that volunteer their time as committee members but won’t put up their hand and volunteer themselves.:yuk:

[The Godfather]

In my mind you can't have a negotiator who's main job is a pilot! His secondary job is a negotiator? Please

Do you see actors, lawyers, sportsman and other high paid professionals negotiating their contracts? NO!!!!! They have specialist people doing it for them.

This is my biggest problem with aviation unions, they all think that if they do a 3 day industrial relations course then that makes them negotiators.

Get professional people in to front the talks with the company. These people won't get sidetracked by petty issues, they deal with the all the issues. After all they do this day in and day out in many different fields. We work as pilots first, everything else second. We can't give 100% to negotiations, they can.

Secondly get a good PR firm to represent us!!! They have ways and means of delivering the story to the public, especially the local chinese public who tend to think that we are all paid $5 millions dollars (According to Tony T.) We need to educate the public on how things really are at Cathay.

In this time period where anything to do with aviation is in decline, now is the time to get a better package and work conditions, not a worse one. From pilots, engineers, anyone really.

[404 Titan]

The Godfather

I tend to agree. The only problem is that CX management refuse to negotiate with professional negotiators from the AOA. That is why we have pilots who have only done a three day negotiation course negotiating with the company.

[Pedro330]

Actually there were some very good pilot negotiators but they were fired in 2001 and then dumped by most of the CX pilots in the AOA. Those pilots are now left with the inept to represent them; a sort of natural justice really.

[BusyB]

Hey Pedro,

tell me all the unions or associations where the Gen Sec is paid a % of the income as opposed to a negotiated package.:}

[Numero Crunchero]

Pedro330,
I am interested to know how you come to the conclusion that good negotiators were fired in 2001? Are you implying the bad ones kept their jobs? So Nigel D, Don F, Ross L were hopeless - John W, Steve B, Brad H and Drew S were good negotiators then!?

I guess it comes down to what is a good negotiator? Is it someone who gets the best deal achievable, or one that has negotiations break down and have conditions imposed? Using that definition I can assure you that ST definitely is a good negotiator as he achieved the best deal POSSIBLE from CX right now. Nigel and JW had talks break down - so not so good, huh?

Godfather,
there have been three monetary negotiations in the last 10 years - 1999, 2001 and 2007. In all three I can assure you that the end result, whether imposed or agreed, was no where near the AOA starting position. I think many pilots have the assumption that there is much too-ing an fro-ing in CX negotiations. From my experience I can assure you that is not the case. Lee Iacocca, Henry Kissinger and Menachen Began could have been in the room for all the difference it would have made. When you have many 'not negotiable' issues, what do you do?

Negotiation is about give and take of what you WANT or NEED. Someone please tell me why the company should give us one cent? We are all still here - people are still joining - there is no industrial action etc. So if you were CX, would you give a payrise? We all WANT a payrise - where is their NEED?

So if it makes you sleep better at night assuming the negotiators are incompetent then so be it. But if you are so smart please step up and join the GC and get on the next negotiating team so we can finally get those 50% payrises we all know we deserve!

[FlexibleResponse]

I would hope that in employing someone to represent my interests to the company and negotiate my personal pay and allowances, that he was paid more than a B scale FO!

If you want a monkey to represent your interests, then go and pay peanuts! I suspect that some posters here don't even have an independent representative. Penny wise and pound foolish?

In the meantime the intelligentsia will employ professionals. Go figure!

[404 Titan]

tfa456

Don’t assume for one minute that I am on the GC. I’m not. You though like typical AOA bashers are a brand new handle. Why is that? How many handles do you have on Pprune? If you want a lesson in accounting standards and practices I will be more than pleased to enlighten you. Those that know me know that I am more than qualified to give advice in this field if required. I suspect though you won’t as you are obviously a troll who has it in for the GS and everything else that is to do with the AOA.
What does the General Secretary of BALPA get paid?
Why don’t you ask them? Again I doubt you will but if you did I think you would eat humble pie.:yuk:

[404 Titan]

Pedro330
OK then what does the BALPA General Secretary get paid?
Probably not 20% of BALPA dues!
Oh for God’s sake are you that stupid to actually believe that crap? A person’s salary is based on market forces not by turnover. If we extrapolate your train of thought further, just because CX has 1/3 the turnover of BA should we only get paid 1/3 of a BA pilot. Get real. You’re showing yourself up as a right royal idiot.:mad::yuk:

[BusyB]

Hey Pedro,

Why no answer to my question if you're so correct?

"not a credidle argument ... it just makes you look stupid."

No comment:}

[BusyB]

Its always been an Association as Balpa is.:confused:

[FYI]

If a payrise will only result from a flood of people leaving CX, then we have no hope. Given the way the airline industry and seniority is built, for the most part, the only people that will go are those who BOTH really can't stand it here (most of us!) AND those who can afford ($$) to go (not many of us). Who can afford to go.....generally either those who are in their first couple years and hence won't be taking a huge paycut to go somewhere else or those who are so well set up financially that they can handle starting at the bottom somewhere else. Its not like we all have the ability to walk to show our disgust at how we are treated and or paid.

What happened to rewarding employees for hard work, recognising record profits can and should result in better pay for your job (don't start me on the joke that is profit share), and also acknowledging that over the years, the cost of living does increase. Sure, reviewing what other airlines pay is part of the process, but if this the only element of a pay discussion then lets wave the white flag.

[Numero Crunchero]

Emirates have no union...they have achieved 40%plus payrises over the last 5 years. Their biggest payrise was due to a 5% departure rate last year which resulted in a 17%(in total) salary increase this year.

So put yourself in NPR's shoes going to the board. How can you ask for more money for pilots? Why does anything need to be changed? We have had no payrises for 6 years and we have how many thousands of applicants? Whats our departure rate?

No I don't go into negotiations cynically but unfortunately thats how I come out of them. We show them how much everyone else earns, how many payrises everyone else got and then we are told what payrise CX has budgeted for. Do you give your maid 10-50% payrises due to exchange rate fluctuations or as a reward for loyalty or longevity?

If your maid stopped cleaning or looking after your children you might pay more...only if you couldn't get another maid for the same price. Just because we fly planes doesn't mean we are any more than hired help.

If you want a payrise then we(as an AOA) need to do more than just whinge and say we deserve more. Our last payrise was associated with contract compliance...we have been cooperative ever since then and enjoyed 0% payrises in that time.

So as the americans say, sh#t or get off the pot!

[Mr. Bloggs]

NC , I can’t believe you said contract compliance. You now have 90% of the pilots running for cover, but I guess they still want a pay rise.:ok:

[sizematters]

why would anyone be running for cover ??? (apart from CX management??)

the one lesson from the 49'ers is that it cost Cathay big $$$$$.................Onshore basings, back tax etc etc......................

for sure if CX could go back in time they would not fire anyone and they surely are not dumb enough to repeat what has to be one of the most expensive F#@k Ups in the companies history........................


so, why not contract compliance ???

[Frogman1484]

The only way we can get cx to change is if we stop the people from coming. We need to spread the news to the various source of employment that :
If you join now you will be stuck in HKG for your whole career, with no chance of any base.
You will have to work to 65 in order to retire.
The HKD is depreciating making your take home pay smaller all of the time.
You will only get inflation or no increase
It will take 10+ to command
The rosters are getting tighter therefore forget about commuting .

If the new joiner realize the truth about working her they might stop or leave.

That is the only way they will fix something. The AOA should take out adverts in Flight, pprune etc stating the truth.

[sizematters]

Froggyman..you sad Barsteward...............why do people like you always want someone else to do your fighting for you.........???? they tried all that before remember ?? asl/recruitment bans..............total crock of !!!!e, no one is going to not join cx to support you.....................get real, if you want to get somewhere, stand up and be counted..............Join the AoA and all stand together................................

[The Management]

Because no one will exercise contract compliance………………………. similar to MSS. If they wanted a pay rise the pilots should have been in contract compliance long before negotiations but I guess the pilots are not that smart. Now all those negotiated deals in the hope of a pay rise are all for not. Now I know why you have free reserves and lost the 5-4-3 rule. Most Pilots are idiots; they can never figure it out. How many times do you have to get screwed before you figure it out? You are pathetic.

And the most important reason, the pilot group is scared. They get others to do their dirty work because most are spineless to do it themselves

We will not terminate ones contract for no reason next time but we will terminate contracts if need be and most know this. Very simple to find a reason, not that it matters, our Judges will not care if you go to court. The AOA will not take us to court and individuals will not have the funds. No one will want to or think of putting their head above the parapet.

We have now taken the deal off the table and you don’t have a pay rise, mindless. Don’t see negotiations in the near future, we are actually saving money. Don’t see many running out the door; our freighters are still operating with the help of Hong Kong based and overseas based pilots, thank you very much. You are actually saving us money by not giving it to your freight colleagues. The freighter ops runs somewhat late at times but our freighter pilots do a great job of using discretion when the flights are delayed and acknowledging all those short notice roster changes. Sorry, maybe next year for a pay rise freight dogs.

As for our HK based freighter pilots; well when we go onshore the tax implications in those jurisdictions may be unbearable for some pilots. With the low HK tax system, we can afford to set a lower COS and still have those on bases join the new C Scale as some have put it. But this will not affect you. This will be most beneficial to The Cathay Pacific Group because we save money due to the HK dollar but the pilot wins because they are based in a low tax jurisdiction. Pilots just can’t help themselves, they are inherently selfish.

Your contract compliance days are over before they even started because you are all spineless.

The Management

[Frogman1484]

Size matters...matter of fact I am in the AOA and did not quit like some of our friends just because they had to put up some money, so where should I be counted mate...next time think before you speak...

[404 Titan]

Pedro330

It’s pretty typical for someone with no substance to their argument to attack the individual rather than debate the topic. If you want to be taken seriously show me one company that pays its employees based on turnover. It is a fact that the GS is actually paid less than the market rate for the job he does. Maybe you are prepared to do it for nothing? Remember it is a fulltime job so you will have to give up your paying day job. Seriously though if you have a workable idea as to how we could do it differently I and many others would be interested in hearing it.

[Virtual Reality]

BRAVO The Management .......:D:D:D.............

[FYI]

How was QF "forced" into giving QF shorthaul a payrise recently? While things certainly aren't all hunky dory there, they don't have hoards of pilots leaving do they? They didn't compare what their pilot's curently were being paid compared to others in that market and go.....whoah! these guys deserve a payrise! What was the trigger for management there to agree to a payrise?