Female C-130 pilot - The Sunday Times

[stickmonkeytamer]

Did anyone else read the interview with the female C-130 pilot in The Sunday Times magazine? "Bringing the Royal Air Force into disrepute" springs to mind... Both myself and Mrs SMT were disgusted. The CRO or MCO (or whatever they are called this week) should be ashamed of themselves!
She made a fool of herself with Samsonite cases, not being able to shoot properly and the classic line to alienate all aircrew from the ground personnel, "In Basra I'm supposed to shack up with in the women's tent, but they get up at random times for LESS STRINGENT DUTIES(!!!). If they have a disturbed night, THEY MIGHT DROP THEIR PENCIL(!!!!!) - but I could crash an aircraft (should have had better flying skills then love!)". She goes on to state that "I'm not supposed to sleep in the tent with the guys, but I do"
She has not shown the RAF nor women in the Forces in the best light...
SMT

[stickmonkeytamer]

Posted for your perusal...
The only funny bit is the Gloria Gaynor bit at the end...

SMT

From The Sunday Times
February 11, 2007
A Life in the Day: Caz Leavey
A Hercules pilot based at RAF Lyneham, Caz (Caroline) Leavey, 26, joined the Southampton University Air Squadron while studying biochemistry, then trained at RAF Cranwell, Lincolnshire. She is currently on tour in Iraq
Interview by Alice Douglas

"The time I get up depends on my duties. It could be 2 or 3 in the morning. I’m bleary-eyed and carry all my stuff from my tent to the bathroom, dropping things on the way. I then shower and get ready — basically by scraping my hair back in a scrunchie. We have breakfast — I eat Alpen, hurriedly. Then we get our rations for the flight — sausage rolls, biscuits and fruit — and fill our canisters with hot water for tea and coffee. I call being in Iraq my fat camp, as I always lose about a stone. I think: “Okay, I’m stuck out here, I might as well glean a detox out of it.”

I wear a green flying suit for normal operations but I also have a warm-climate, sandy-coloured one — I tease the blokes it’s actually pink. If we got shot down and captured we’d immediately be identified as RAF crew and tortured, as we’d have the most information. Now they’re designing fire-retardant combats for us that blend in with the rest of the troops; then we’ll all get tortured equally!

After breakfast we collect a rifle, pistol and ammunition. I’m not a good shot: in training, target practice wasn’t my top priority. I guess I was concentrating on flying planes. We then get the tactical information for the day, and set off on a standard route: Baghdad-Kuwait-Baghdad, mainly, or around Iraq. Mostly we collect troops or ferry them around in theatre [the theatre of operations].

My parents were both cabin crew, so I practically grew up in the air. My sixth birthday was spent in the cockpit of a 747, gaily munching cake on the captain’s knee. My original dream was to be a doctor, but I fell short of the three As and ended up doing biochemistry.

I was pretty despondent, so my brother, who’s a commercial pilot, suggested joining the University Air Squadron. It was exhilarating. I could fly a Bulldog before I got my degree, but long-term I had no idea what I wanted to fly, and my decision was based on location, location, location. I’m a southern girl at heart, so that ruled out Nimrods because they’re based in Scotland. That left Brize Norton, with its VC10s, TriStars and C-17s, or Lyneham, where the Hercules are based.

I’ve been to Iraq seven times in the last couple of years, and it’s always been hairy. But it’s even more dangerous now. In Basra I’m supposed to shack up in the women’s tent, but they get up at random times for less stringent duties. If they have a disturbed night, they might drop a pencil — but I could crash an aircraft. I’m not supposed to sleep in the tent with the guys, but I do. In theatre I need to be with my crew constantly. We sleep, eat and work alongside each other.

When rain floods the tents it’s bad. The guys mock me for bringing a Samsonite suitcase with me, but when their Bergens are soaked through and mine is bone-dry inside, they’re begging to put their mobiles and laptops in it.

I have to put up with a bit of a hoo-ha when I’m lugging it off the aircraft, but you wouldn’t be a woman in the forces if you couldn’t take a bit of stick.

The first time I made a night approach into Basra, rockets were exploding on the runway. I’d been through the ropes in the simulator, but a real explosion is something else! I had to fly into Kuwaiti airspace while they checked the runway for damage. About two hours later we landed fine, but I felt bad for my 80 troops on board. It’s like: “Welcome to the base — it’s under fire.”

Our day can be 18 hours long. Lunch depends on when we’ll be at a certain air base — at the American ones there’s Burger King. But I feel safer in the sky. When you’re being rocketed on the ground you feel completely helpless. You just repair to your tent and hope. You hear a “whooo” before a rocket lands, then the ground shakes and the tent sucks in and you’re frozen as you feel the vacuum after the blast. My boyfriend was in the RAF for 10 years, and he once said: “If the rocket’s got my name on, my time is up.” That calms me down.

The Hercules can carry 120 people and has four engines. Once, a warning came up saying “engine vibration high”. I reduced the power but it didn’t go away, so I shut that engine down and returned to base. It wasn’t a panic, just something I had to do. But once I buggered up a landing, and the crew were like: “What the hell was that?” It isn’t always your fault: the wind might change, and a Hercules hasn’t got air brakes, so you may have to break off the approach. I’ve never done serious damage to an aircraft, but I expect I’ve caused bruises.

We get basic escape and evasion training, but in my view if you can’t limp to a runway, you’re a goner. A Hercules went down between Balad and Baghdad two years ago. The co-pilot was a close friend of mine. I was at a panto at Brize Norton when we got the news. It was devastating. Some of my colleagues went to 10 funerals. When I joined up there was no war and I didn’t think about that side of things. But when I’m flying, no emotion interferes: I remain cool, detached and professional. It’s on the ground I run round like a hot potato.

After the final flight of the day we return all our kit, check the plot for the next day, then head for the mess. I have a light supper and, if I’ve got the energy, go to the gym. In the evening, DVDs are the main form of entertainment — except I can’t persuade the lads to watch the movies I like, so I take my laptop and watch Pride and Prejudice, or whatever, by myself on my camp bed. I read a lot too. Then, as long as there are no sirens or rockets, I go to sleep. I always pray that I don’t get mortared that night. In my dreams I always survive."

[jungliebird]

I'm just embarrassed. :ugh:

Think I might have shared a tent with her......but then again I was on less stringent duties, definately broke a pencil that day!!!!

[Tourist]

Whats the problem?

I agree, she should sleep with rest of the crew. Possibly all at once!:E

[k1rb5]

'they might drop their pencil' :eek:


Oh dear Caz, you may find your groundcrew a little less helpful from now on. I guess in your eyes you won't expect them to read the broadsheets though will you? :mad:

[maxdrypower]

They are obviosuly giving commissions to any idiot these days , this woman has shown the RAF in a very bad light indeed , what were the flight eng and the other pilot doing when she got the not really a big issue eng vib caption and saved the world ? There is the other train of thought that she has been paraphrased by a journalist , wouldnt be the first time would it ? Best hope when the other females on their not so stringent duties , like for example sitting in the tower getting shelled whilst your in Kuwaiti airspace , arent arming aircraft etc etc , this beggars belief

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

SMT and the rest,

Bearing in mind all of what Caz will have said would have been off the cuff and at the mercy of the journo so please don't take it all to heart dear folks:rolleyes:

I know and have flown with her on numerous occasions and the portrayal you have read is a long long way from the truth:*

[maxdrypower]

Aha thought that may be the case journalistic licensing again

[Gwladys]

I have absolutely no doubt that they weren't the words that left Caz's mouth. I do not know the girl, and sympathise with her if she's feeling let down by a supposed trustworthy journalist.
HOWEVER, how on earth did this get past the RAF PR team!! I assume, of course, that we have an RAF PR team??!! This was not some page 9 article in a local rag, this was the Sunday Times for heaven's sake. The much-quoted 'pencil' line above was especially disappointing to read, particularly to those of us who try and go out their way to get on with our non-aircrew brethren. Again, not wholly the subject's fault but not the best RAF Aircrew piece I have ever read........

[Now a 'J' Bloke!!]

Dear MaxDryTissue;

The Flight Eng was probably in Calne tending to his garden as dearest Caz wouldn't be needing one of those chaps.

Looks like the journo has garnished it a bit......

NAJB

[Klingon]

Everybody wants their 15 minutes of fame, unfortunately our badly briefed CRO's are too often pushed by self serving politicos who seem hell bent on parading population minorities in the armed forces as though they were something different (or special).
No doubt encouraged by her bosses, flattered by a professional journo and lonely as hell on Det she said things she probably regrets.
Answer: Stop promoting minority representation, for goodness sake hasn't the hopeless and often backfiring promotion of minority groups in the public sector taught us anything. The Americans learnt that positive discrimination doesnt work years ago.
Cas is a victim not the purp! Where was the media minder?:*

[Prop-Ed]

I'm guessing none of you have flown C 130s in the desert. What Caz states is essentialy true. She doesn't state that the duties carried out by non flyers are not important but simply puts it that if she is not on top of her game the consequences are potentialy more serious if she was to make a mistake.
Would you fly on a BA/Virgin flight knowing the crew had F' all sleep due to constant interuptions during the night?........... Didn't think so.
However, would you let a slightly drowzy check in attendant or baggage handler assist you before the flight?.......Of course you would( and probably have!).
Look, i'm not interested in a Pissing contest between pilots and "everyone else" and I am a firm believer that we are all one team but there seems to be a fundemental mis understanding of the importance of crew rest.
I know Caz well and she is an excellent example of a professional pilot. You would do well to have her at the controls of your C130 next time you are being ferried around the gulf.
Caz, don't listen to people with half the facts or not willing to admit the importance of your job. Fly safe and keep bringing them home in one piece!:ok:

[Ali Barber]

Couldn't find the link by searching PPRuNe. It's been posted before, but had me in stitches when I first saw this:

A DAY IN THE LIFE OF A TRANSPORT PILOT

0700L - Woken by telephone call. It's another crew member reminding you that wheels are at 0700L.

0700.5L - Leave hotel room fully clothed, refreshed, with bags packed, ready to face the day's challenges.

0705L - Get to bus. Apologise to rest of your crew for your tardiness. Claim that you spent too long in the gym that morning. Note looks of disbelief. Remember not to use that excuse again.

0706L - Take seat on bus. Note t-shirt is on inside out. Hope nobody else notices.

0720L - Recline in air conditioned luxury as the bus propels you to the airport. Suspect that you didn't pack your shoes and that your washbag is still in the hotel bathroom.

0745L - Arrive at airport and debus. Note that suitcase is suspiciously light. Now fairly confident that shoes are still under hotel bed.

0800L - Negotiate airport security. Spend several minutes being told that you cannot take the knife on your flying suit onto the aircraft without the captain's permission. Explain that you are the captain.

0810L - Still negotiating airport security. Guard now on telephone to superiors. Suspect he does not believe that you are the captain. Remember t-shirt is on inside out. Now suspect that you have also not brushed your hair this morning. Try to see reflection in window to confirm. Get funny looks from guard.

0815L - Eventually allowed to pass on the understanding that you hand the knife to loadmaster for safe keeping until you reach the aircraft. Leave knife and now worryingly light suitcase with loadmaster and proceed to Met.

0820L - In depth met brief for 15 minutes as very keen met officer explains that there is in fact no weather within a 500nm radius of the airport or your destination.

0835L - extract a selection of performance figures from a variety of graphs.

0845L - compare selection of figures with those of co-pilot. Decide that they're close enough although suspect that the co-pilot isn't entirely sure what's going on.

0850L - The cause of the co-pilot's distraction becomes apparent when he announces that he has left the imprest in the hotel safe.

0853L - stop laughing to take a breath.

0854L - Co-pilot disappears to find taxi back to hotel. Decide that you've briefed enough and head out to the aircraft.

0858L - Arrive at aircraft. Loadmaster now extremely hot and sweaty manhandling pallets single handedly into aircraft, cursing the local handling staff. Praise him for his hard work. Pretend to miss his request for help and proceed outside hastily. Spot Flt Eng and GE looking concernedly at a large trail of orange fluid emanating from an engine. Saunter over casually to join them but they spot you and pretend they were talking about football. Mention the large leak. Note they both feign surprise and pretend they hadn't seen it. They dismiss it as a "seep". Retire to flight deck safe in the knowledge that they will die with you if it explodes in flight so assume that it'll probably be alright. Note tray of sandwiches on flt deck bunk.

0910L - Finish last smoked salmon and cream cheese baguette just as the now exhausted loadmaster joins you on the flight deck. Apparently he could really do with a smoked salmon baguette. State that sadly there were none. Surreptitiously wipe cream cheese and salmon from your chin and hope he didn't notice. Offer him processed ham and gherkin sandwich. He declines.

0925L - Co-pilot returns looking somewhat frustrated. Establish that imprest had in fact been in his suitcase all along.

0935L - Call for crew check in on intercom then realise you are in fact the only one on headset. Again, hope no-one noticed. Eventually gather enough people on intercom.

0937L - Commence starting checks. During start a light on the top panel comes on. Remember seeing this light during a simulator once but cannot recall what exactly it is. Flt Eng begins explaining an electrical fault with the aid of a large wiring diagram. Nod every now and then and agree with him at salient points. Wonder if you shaved this morning.

0940L - Fault rectified, taxy off blocks. Only 10 minutes late. Not bad going.

0941L - ATC pass lengthy clearance. Note the co-pilot copies down "ATC Clears Ascot 5432 to destination..." and then nothing else. ATC requests readback. Co-pilot asks - "did anybody get that". Navigator proceeds to pass the details to him. Flt Eng assists by commenting that he thought the clearance was slightly different. Flt Eng and Navigator argue. Co-pilot drops pencil. You note that your cup of tea has gone cold.

0945L - Cleared line up.

0946L - Airborne. Gear up. Now positive that your shoes are still in hotel.

1100L – Top of climb. Autopilot appears to be u/s. Express relief that it’s the co-pilot’s leg.

1115L – Commence first meal.

1130L – Replete from meal, retire to freight bay to use the “facilities”. On return, note large pallet of full mail bags. A quick test reveals the pile to extremely comfortable. Relax eyelids briefly.

1400L - Return to flight deck to find co-pilot now desperate to use “facilities”. Explain that you were delayed discussing your routing with some of the pax down the back. Take control.

1405L – Co-pilot returns. Comments that the passengers must all be asleep in the freight now as he couldn’t see them. Remember vaguely that you actually have no pax.

1415L – Pass overhead large international airport. Nil cloud or weather, calm, unlimited visibility. Co-pilot asks you get the weather for the airfield below. Look out window. Navigator asks for the QNH there. Make up figure.

1500L – Get cramp. Go to “inspect the freight bay”. Discover that loadmaster has been hoarding chocolate in his drawer in the galley. Steal the good ones.

1520L – Steal Flt Eng’s FHM. Read out the jokes at the back. Flt Eng comments that they have already been read out earlier in the flight. Look busy with Jetplan.

1600L – Top of descent.

1615L – Commence second meal. Spill curry on flying suit leg when putting the gear down.

1630L – Aircraft lands at destination.

1640L – On chocks. Aircraft met by officious customs man who demands that the can of coke you are now drinking from be destroyed before you can leave the aircraft.

1830L – Eventually find bus to take crew to hotel. Despite having been on the ground for 1.5hrs it still takes 30 minutes for every man and his dog to get on the bus.

1915L – Arrive at Hotel Splendide. Receptionist requires passports, ID cards and birth certificates from each crew member.

1957L – Eventually receive room key. Arrange to meet in co-pilots room in 10 minutes for more money.

2006L – Finally get to room. Happens to be most distant room from reception. Again. Open suitcase. As expected no shoes. Or washbag. Find trousers that go best with flying boots.

2008L – Arrive one minute late at co-pilot’s room to discover he has gone. Adjourn to hotel bar. Crew member visited this location 7 years ago. Remembers a fantastic bar. Set out to find bar.

2230L – Arrive back at hotel bar having walked around city centre twice in search of bar. Crew member then remembers that in fact the bar wasn’t in this town but one like it. Blow entire kitty on one round of beers at hotel prices.

2345L – GE gets address of low quality strip bar from hotel barman. You decide it’s bedtime. Crew members engage in harsh banter. You hold your ground.

2346L – Leave hotel for low quality strip bar. Evening becomes a blur……….

0700L – Woken by telephone call……………………..

[Gwladys]

Klingon: ......'backfiring promotion of minority groups'...
You're not calling our fine ladies 'minority groups' are you??!! Shame on you, shame on you!!!!!!!!!

[Bannock]

Easy Easy Steady!
I smell !!!!e.
Because its in print, it must be true?
How many times are we going to slag off the media in one breath then fall hook line and sinker for there next issue of bo£&ocks.
I look forward to reading the many posts in support of her if indeed this is a complete stitch up.

[Klingon]

Any group which represents only 12.3% of the total population is a "minority group".

Doesn't make them less or moreimportant except to those politically correct tree-huggers who tried to get me to sit through a whole day of "orientation".

[RETDPI]

Totally embarrassing to read . It made me feel ill.
The sense of me! me! me! ,even to the choice of platform location -(perish the thought of being "oop North").
Nope! I'm glad I'm out.
Before anybody starts whingeing about "the poor girl was misquoted ";
what the hell was the Service doing in letting such a bimbo being let loose with those clowns in the first place?
I heard very much similar cr*p being gobbed off by certain members of a Nimrod crew in the RAF Club last year - for all to hear in the Cowdray Room.
Wake up Guys-you are being your own worse enemies in letting this sort of puerile idiocy escape to a wider audience.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

I am 100% certain I would rather operate with this particular "bimbo" than a bitter and twisted obviously passed over and obviously blunt cretin like you RET:*

[k1rb5]

However, would you let a slightly drowzy techie re-rig your flying controls before the flight?.......Of course you would NOT and the list is endless of groundcrew who have very important jobs to do and need proper rest to do them effectively. Your comment is :mad: prop-ed.
I imagine Caz has been mis-quoted plenty and I feel for her if she has. However, comments like the pencil one are unforgivable if she did make them.

[Whirlygig]

"...Women must pay for everything. They do get more glory than men for comparable feats, but, they also get more notoriety when they crash..."


What would your reactions be if the person who was interviewed were male?

Cheers

Whirls

[threepointonefour]

I can't say I sympathise too much.

As for the "journalistic license" comments ... surely no journo worth anyone's salt would go into print without a transcript of the comments for fear of being sued? :eek: I suspect that the journo in question has a full record of the interview and that the words, however unintentionally, probably were used as quoted.

I recall 3 similar incidents ...

1. The closure of 23 F3 Sqn local TV feature in which one pilot describe his job as 'getting paid to waz around the sky'.

2. A certain pilot's wife once described all aircrew as childish on national TV, in ref to drinking games and the like after the sqn was filmed on exercise in Canada.

3. A FJ nav once went home to his parents' house for Christmas in the late 90's and spent all week whinging about how sort the F3 fleet was of spares, the fact that the sqn rarely had more than 20% serviceable etc etc. Imagine his surprise when his journo sister sold the whole story to The SUN the next week ...?


There are more, I'm sure. I don't know this pilot, but I am sure she's been naive at best, at worst , stupid. I'm sure she's just voiced what many of us have uttered time and again about shared accommodation, disturbed sleep patterns etc with the standard aircrew, "no-one's as good as me" slant on the issue. Unfortunately, when some others in Iraq are dying due to the nature of their tasks, her attributed comments are pretty insensitive. Shame on the PRO for letting this get to press in it's current form.

Never, ever, ever, ever, trust a journalist.

[Lizzie]

Remember the chap interviewed on BBC breakfast who said "Anyone who employs a female of child bearing age..."...?

MBE, please!

Ma'am, don't appear on my crew, please. Ever

Woose.

[The Helpful Stacker]

I'm guessing none of you have flown C 130s in the desert. What Caz states is essentialy true. She doesn't state that the duties carried out by non flyers are not important but simply puts it that if she is not on top of her game the consequences are potentialy more serious if she was to make a mistake.


Really?

Do pilots carry oif FSII checks on their fuel? (Never heard of it)

Does the bowser operator carry out FSII checks on the fuel? (Very Rarely)

Who blends F35 with FSII producing F34 we all know and love, using an antiquated blending rig that will go out of calibration as soon as look at it, necessitating them to carry out FSII testing whilst and after the fuel is blended to ensure the correct blend is achieved? (Usually a low pay band stacker, as was in Basrah for quite a while).

Although it may seem a very minor 'stacker' thing insufficient or too much FSII blended into the go juice could bring down a plane as easily as a seemingly very unappreciative growbag with a thing about people with pencils who hasn't had her beauty sleep.

And one wonders why some 'erks' generally have a poor impression of those we send off in the a/c.:rolleyes:

Everyone in the RAF has a part to play and very few are separated enough from the sharp end to not cause potential flight safety implications through fault in their work. Even the much maligned Jaffa's can cause 'Human Factors' if they don't do their duty correctly.

Of course you all knew this and were about to admonish one of your own for disrespectful remarks aimed at the enablers weren't you?

[Melchett01]

If we got shot down and captured we’d immediately be identified as RAF crew and tortured, as we’d have the most information.

I'm not sure the Int Cell would entirely agree with you there luv! And from haviing spent quite a lot of time getting briefed to death by our IntO and from reading your article, I don't think you'd have to worry too much about giving too many secrets away. Unless of course the insurgents are after a decent Samsonite :\

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

And the Int Cell gets shot down how?

Nice to see the usual "chipped shoulders" on display:rolleyes:

[threepointonefour]

And the Int Cell gets shot down how?


The int guy would be on the C130 that was shot down after the pilot forgot to switch the DAs on as her sleep was interrupted. Obviously.


Nice to see the usual "chipped shoulders" on display

Surely there wouldn't be any "chips" as Basra is a detox destination?!

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Just checked your profile 3.4 which explains a lot and reinforces my "chipped" analogy:=

[BleepBleep]

Sounds like there are a number of culprits here, that said I don't believe that there was not very close CRO / Corperate Comms scrutiny on what was been written, even after a lot of "preparation". In spite of that I can't believe that every word attributed to her was made up - for crying out loud what about quote: "When I joined up there was no war and I didn’t think about that side of things." Is she so good that she comissioned well before she graduated? Or does she actually believe that time with the UAS is true service; ignoring that she can't have been paying much attention to current affairs - when have we not been on operations of one kind or another since the Berlin Wall came down. I can only thank God that earlier operations have not been as casualty heavy as life in Iraq or Afganistan.

On the comments about being so important she can't sleep with non-crew because she more important (OK para-phrasing and the like) but it's not unusual. In Kuwait in '99 there was more than just a little tension when the Herc crews ferrying pax into theatre headed straight to the nearest 5* hotel in Kuwait city as "the accomodation was a flight safety hazard"! While the GR1 crews who were flying live combat missions North of the 34th parallel (or whatever the boundary was) and were off-loading a lot less armament than were up-loaded, while living in the cockroach infested flight-saftey hazard!! Never mind the aircrew - ground-crew friction the (minority of) multi-meal trucky fleet can casue all manner of other factions!!

[threepointonefour]

Just checked your profile 3.4 which explains a lot and reinforces my "chipped" analogy:=
I have no chips. Only 6 weeks to go now ...

And it's 3 point ONE 4 to you. :p


As an aside, as a FJ nav I never had to justify myself to anyone from Wiltshire !!

[Ken Scott]

I think we have to remember that this article was written for the benefit of civvies, & not for our own consumption. No doubt she said most of what is in the article, but probably not in the same order, & it's published with all the context removed, but that's how journalism works, bending the facts into a new configuration to make a point.

Yes, it's all a bit corny & hyped up to make a more dramatic statement, but in the end it increases our visibility in the public eye, it's not all bad even if those of us that have been there ( & shared a tent with the individual, but not in the biblical sense!) wince at some of the thoughts expressed. Ask any of your civvy friends what they thought of it, if you know any Sunday Times readers that is, & I'll bet they thought it was a bit heroic.

It beats the tripe that the Mail on Sunday writes about the military anyway!

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

And in 6 weeks you'll be flipping burgers where?:p

[threepointonefour]

Done that already. Management this time around!

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

So you'll have 5 stars and be in charge of the burger flippers:p

[Two's in]

Nearly missed this thread, got totally engrossed in the one where the RAF are accusing the AAC of being unprofessional and essentially eating their own young in public.

[threepointonefour]

5 stars gained aged 18. Like I said, management this time.

If you want, I'll put in a good word for you when u retire in six years time - we might well need someone to wipe the tables.

Rest assured, you won't have to do it all on your own. I'll give you a 'co-wiper', a 'sanitary engineer' and a 'tray load master' to assist in your task - you can also have some undisturbed breaks in the store cupboard.

[Whirlygig]

Now now boys, don't you think you're giving men a bad name?

Cheers

Whirls

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Since when did you start taking an interest in men whirls:E

[Black 'n Yellar]

I have read through all the replies, virtually sure that somebody would point out the quote from the newspaper article - but they did n't so I am going to have to:
It is not really surprising she turned out as she did because "My sixth birthday was spent in the cockpit of a 747, gaily munching cake on the captain’s knee."
Clearly she was destined for the C130 from an early age. Had she been gaily munching something else near the Captain's knee she would have been streamed to the Bumper Fun Jet!:ok:

[Whirlygig]

Since when did you start taking an interest in men whirls

..Er... since I was about 12!

Cheers

Whirls

[cyclic gal]

Interesting reading, even regular, apparently otherwise objective, sensible posters using terms such as "luv" when replying or referring to this female pilot. Get over it guys, there are female pilots to equal you and perhaps.......

[rej]

Well yet again the journos appear to have 'spun' a story from some probably well intentioned comments.
As far as I am concerned Caz is easily equal to many of her males contemporaries and is a good operator and officer. Some of the comments made on this thread actually bring the RAF into disrepute more, for their chauvenistic attitudes and childish bleatings. Grow up get a life.

[Beeayeate]

Sounds to me as if Caz was talking in 'banter' and journo was listening in 'serious'.



:E

[safe single]

Talking in banter to a journo. Hmmmm surely no-one would be that stupid... ?




I shake my head in disbelief and raise my eyes skyward:ugh:

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

I think you will find that believing what you have read is stupid:rolleyes:

[cyclic gal]

I talk to journos, radio stations. etc. every day these days and every day on my way home I listen to the news to see if they transmit what I said and its almost never. Banter or serious, it rarely matters, journalistic licence still applies. That doesn't excuse members of the military/aviation fraternity being sexist.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Sexist, what the hell would you know about that............bloody women on a military forum when there's housework needing doing, whatever next:E

[cyclic gal]

don't be fooled by the handle...these green leather marigolds have seen more than you might think!

[Whirlygig]

Housework was done ages ago after a full-time job, studying for ATPLs and caring for Aged Ps so that leaves me plenty of time!

What are you chaps doing eh?

Next!

Cheers

Whirls

[cyclic gal]

Whirls

Respect. Time to put this one to bed...

[TOPBUNKER]

The collocation and co-location of male and female team members of mixed ranks is, and always will be, a problem to accommodation allocators everywhere.
OC's Admin et.c need to point a blind eye at such groups. Inflexibility on the part of senior execs has always been a frustration and is a damned good reason for mixed rank/sex crews being accommodated off-base. - Out of sight = Out of mind.

It's never a good idea to put one's head above the parapet with journo's though.

Next time you want to uuse it, it might not be attached to one's shoulders!

Just for now let's allow the Royal Scottish Army take the flack: - can't be pleasant snorting that amount of Icing Sugar!
(I believe that's powder sugar in Spamese?)

[Blacksheep]

Pencil dropping aside, I reckon the article does what it was intended to do - give civilian readers a glamourised glimpse of life in Iraq with the RAF from a woman pilot's viewpoint. As to sharing tents with male crew members, in your old fashioned way the military try to keep men and women apart, but we civilians don't regard mixed accommodation as particularly shocking.

This quotation from an earlier post puzzles me though......hell bent on parading population minorities... What minority exactly does she represent? Women were in the majority within the UK population last time I looked. Perhaps she's a black seventh day adventist, but the article doesn't mention race or religion. Flying aeroplanes is womens' work anyway - as all we 'ground crew' know perfectly well. :suspect:

[Mad_Mark]

I had no idea what I wanted to fly, and my decision was based on location, location, location. I’m a southern girl at heart, so that ruled out Nimrods because they’re based in Scotland. That left Brize Norton, with its VC10s, TriStars and C-17s, or Lyneham, where the Hercules are based.

I think this southern girl needs a career broadening tour up north :E

MadMark!!! :mad:

[Runaway Gun]

I don't think that she actually said anything that controversial. So she carries a samsonite suitcase, sleeps where practical, doesn't like getting rocketed, and so on... So what? It sounds like an honest description of what she does during her job, and it's not especially different from anyone else's reflections. She doesn't say she likes the bad bits, she's not pretending to be tough or special, she's just talking about her job. Honesty is a rare thing to be read in the newspapers nowadays.

In retrospect ANYBODYS conversation can be picked apart, but remember that we are not all media trained - or practised (a bit like regular practise on the firing range - without it we tend to get worse).

Give her a break.

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

What minority exactly does she represent? Women were in the majority within the UK population last time I looked.


But she's not being interviewed because she's a random British woman - she's being interviewed as a female military pilot, which puts her in a tiny minority.

If the article is a reasonably accurate representation of what she said (but I trust this isn't the case), shame on her!

But if the journo has distorted her words to make harmless comments so inflammatory, where's the lawsuit?:ok:

[Prop-Ed]

K1rb5,
Read my frikin post again. Some jobs are more important than others and that is fact. Is it only pilots who need sufficient rest to be totally effective at their job?...NO, but thats not the point I was making so :mad: to you too!

[teeteringhead]

Did she not consider the (mostly southern based) SH Force ....... stroke of luck that ....;)

....... and no slight whatsoever on the number of fine SH operators whose jumpers are lumpier ..... if you can do the job I'm not too worried about your mix of chromosomes ......

[hobie]

Hang in there Caz ......

I would be proud to have you as my daughter .... :ok:

ps. My old Samsonite has done more miles than a C-130 will ever do in it's lifetime and it will see me out .... thats for sure ! ;)

[Strictly Jungly]

Aircrew V The rest...........


Remember,
You dont' have to be a pilot to "fly in the RAF".................:eek:


I know it is true because I have seen it on TV!

[Barely Restrained]

No, Prop-Ed, some jobs are NOT more important than others. Without everybody equally pulling their weight, there wouldn't be any aircraft in the sky to crash, if she doesn't get her sleep.

Journo interpretation is now irrelevant as the story has been printed and the damage has been done, regardless of what she actually said. At the Unit I am at, a thread is currently running on the intranet regarding the article, and I've no doubt that there is something similar going on at other stns. Lesson needs to be learned by whoever 'vets' these stories.

The pencil comment is rude and arrogant whether taken out of context or not...and simply reinforces the 'us and them' attitude. Please don't try and justify it just because she's one of yours.

For the rest of you truckies, how many of you Bergen wearers are going to hang around for her while she drags her Samsonite across the bondu if, God forbid, something did happen (assuming that the FP boys are unable to get out as they are too busy picking up their pencils and doing something less stringent)?

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Barely restrained,

I am positively foaming you ill informed amoeba:ugh:

"For the rest of you truckies, how many of you Bergen wearers are going to hang around for her while she drags her Samsonite across the bondu if, God forbid, something did happen (assuming that the FP boys are unable to get out as they are too busy picking up their pencils and doing something less stringent"

She like so many others uses her Samsonite exclusively to transport personal kit in and out of theater via BZN. Lots of us have purchased the US footlockers for the same purpose ie to stop the baggage crushers wrecking our kit!

Whilst flying she, like every other crew member carries her own "go kit" in bergan/belt format etc and is as prepared, if not more so than all her counterparts. I have flown with her and have ABSOLUTELY no reservations as to her capability and the contribution she brings to the crew.

Barely you are fully an arse, go read your bitter and twisted post again realise what a complete idiot you have made of yourself and apologise immediately:*

[Strictly Jungly]

Chill out Guys!!!!!!!!!!!!


See what talking to journo's does?????

[Controversial Tim]

I quite liked the pencil quote.

[Barely Restrained]

Seldom

The para quoted was written firmly tongue in cheek, the rest of it was not and I stand by it. My other half is currently at said location and gets up at 'random times' for 'less stringent' duties because she is called out every time there's a TIC. Every time she goes in she may have to assist providing life-saving treatment - regardless of how much sleep she has had and not a pencil in sight. She can also be expected to go beyond the wire to assist with casevac. She has an important job, and she does it with humility, although admittedly in a Service that 'pulls together' for the greater aim. As I said, everybody out there has a job to do and they are all equally important.

The article has provoked a great deal of negative reaction, the results of which are probably winging around an intra-net near you. I suspect that your reaction to my email is something similar to that experienced by the majority of 'groundies' when reading the original article.

[Confucius]

The cacophany of mutilated vowels grows ever more strident as one travels North from the Thames Valley. Wishing to remain in the South is a perfectly noble aspiration. I myself have no intention of staying in the grim north more than a second longer the absolutely necessary when I retire. I will not so much as glance over my shoulder as I head back to civilization when I reach 55. In the meantime I have 15 years of misery ahead.

[teeteringhead]

Wasn't it one of the Beaus (Nash or Brummel) who resigned his commission when posted to Harrogate, on the grounds that he had not contracted to serve abroad........;)

[Redcarpet]

A very worrying interview from both a pilot's and an officer's perspective. :ugh:

[desertnail]

lesson 1...don't ever talk to journos....their rep appalling at LYE.

lesson 2...the baldricks on the north side need to work harder at beating the pencil mentality out.:)

[Dukeyboy]

I'm sure the Flt Lt in question is kicking herself about several quotes, some of which have doubtless been taken out of context. I've never met her, but I can sympathise with her views about being in Basra and being shelled; a thoroughly unpleasant experience. Instead of slinging recriminations around, though, perhaps we should just learn the lesson that even though the press might offer to glamourise your account of things, they rarely do the whole team justice in the process. A dissapointing read, I'm afraid.

[NRU74]

oop north ?
we still use thee and thou oop 'ere

[Wingswinger]

Well, I think the most shocking aspect of the whole sorry saga is her use of the expressions "it's like" and "the crew were like"! She's supposed to be an officer for heaven's sake! Don't they teach them to speak in IOT these days?

[Dukeyboy]

U no its EZr 2 spk lik dis m8?

[microlight AV8R]

Dukey

For goodness sake get it right man....

U no its EZr 2 spk lik dis m8 innit?

[Prop-Ed]

Barley Restrained,

You sound like you must be pretty blunt or pretty senior but my guess is probably worst case and that you are both. (Maybe work in recruiting?)

What planet are you on!?:ugh:

[Phil_R]

> choice of platform

I didn't think you got a choice. In fact I thought it was just as likely that you'd join up, be refused flying altogether, end up as Officer in Charge of Potato Peeling and spend the next twelve years on the Falklands overseeing the preparation of edible tubers, which is something they never seem to put in the recruiting videos.

And hang on, you don't need good A-levels to fly C-130s? I'd have thought you would.

Phil

[Pontius Navigator]

Phil_R, you need civvie qualifications before you can be appointed OiC Potatoes.

[NRU74]

Shurely just Arran Pilot

[BitchingBetty]

Oh dear Caz! How naive can someone be?

Unfortunately I think your pencil comment is the most damaging. After all, let’s think about it...

...the less stringent tasks of a medic in Basrah...yes, they might drop a pencil but they might also fail to save someone’s life!

...the less stringent tasks of an air trafficker...oops, they might approve the army to fire mortars in an area where you're flying and you might get shot down!

...and what about the regt, techies, police and personnel guarding the base. I'd hardly call any of them less stringent duties!!!

The world doesn't just revolve around you pilots!!!

That said, the MCO needs to be shot for allowing that report into print!

Call me cynical though but I suspect this won't be the last time something this cringe-worthy ends up in the press!

[Runaway Gun]

BB, I hope that you go to the Lyneham MCO/CCO/PRO tomorrow and volunteer yourself to be interviewed about your job.
Maybe you won't slip up and say something you wish you'd have phrased differently.
Media chase 'sound bites'. You might have a whole encyclopedia worth of interesting, relevant and carefully selected phrases to regurgitate, and I guarantee they'll concentrate on the smallest error. Saying under your breath "This tea is !!!!e innit?" would probably become the headline of three huge newspapers.

[propulike]

BB...the less stringent tasks of a medic in Basrah...yes, they might drop a pencil but they might also fail to save someone’s life!

...the less stringent tasks of an air trafficker...oops, they might approve the army to fire mortars in an area where you're flying and you might get shot down!

...and what about the regt, techies, police and personnel guarding the base. I'd hardly call any of them less stringent duties!!!You're wrong. You can guard, dig etc when you're knackered. Done IOT? ATC can't approve the Army to shoot down aircraft with mortars, they don't singularly own that bit of the sky. Medics do work very long hours legally and without claiming it's dangerous (junior docs). None of them have to work without a break. And if they do cock up, they don't kill at least five others - along with themselves. The jobs AREN'T comparable. However.

I can't believe she was trying to belittle anyone to make herself seem omnipotent. Lots of quotes no doubt, that one used BECAUSE it would be controversial and therefore good press.

Caz, an interview given and rewritten for a Sunday paper's magazine back page readership. Made ME laugh, but - you're a damned good operator. Don't change because of the anonymous opinions of those here (as if you would!). Take a deep breath before this year's review though..... :E

[Spottypilot]

Congratulations on an article which fulfilled its' role nicely. The whole point of the "A life in the day" series is to give outsiders a window into your (possibly interesting) life, your perspectives and what is like to be you. I for one, thought that this article fitted the bill with a nicely pitched conversational tone. My mother, with little military knowledge, read and enjoyed the article, while normally quite a critical person she felt it helped her get to know what it's like to be aircrew on ops.

Caz is a great girl with a pragmatic, get on with it attitude, which many in the Forces could learn from, the personal attacks on her and her judgement are unfair and unwarranted.

Reference the much commented upon sleeping arrangements; Aviation is an endeavour in which a slight misjudgement made in an instant, under pressure can easily lead to death as has been tragically proven on far too many occasions, I suggest that getting the best sleep you can is a good idea! Aircrew are not the only people to operate under these conditions, and i really hope the Docs, nurses sentries etc get to sleep well too. However there are many in war zones who have the luxury of jobs where this is not the case. That's not to belittle the importance of the job or the person who does it or even to say that their mistakes if unchecked, will not cost lives, it's just to say that the environment may be less hostile than the one in which aircrew and others find themselves. If you have taken offence at her comments you really need to get out more and get a life!

[Flt Lt Spry]

One team, one fight. Hoorah...

Here's a useful tip: I tie my pencil to my leg with a piece of elastic, then it doesn't go very far if I drop it. The piece of elastic is long enough so that all areas of my kneeboard can be reached but short enough to stop me from poking myself in the eye by accident.

I dread to think what would happen if a Herc pilot fell asleep at the controls. I wonder if the other pilot would manage until they woke up again?

Aircrew are not the only people to operate under these conditions, and i really hope the Docs, nurses sentries etc get to sleep well too.

In fact, we should produce a list of those trades who are entitled to sleep, and those who can stay up all night guarding the rest of us. At least that would stop all this bickering and arguing.

[Doobs]

I note that all the aircrew are defending her, but all the 'less stringent trades' can actually see the article for what it is. Naive!!
She maybe a good pilot but her PR skills leave a lot to be desired. If I had submitted an interview like that, I would have been up in front of my boss sharpish.

[The Helpful Stacker]

Actually 'Doobs' I don't believe all the aircrew are supporting her.

Pprune is not as widely used as many think and the views made by some of the aircrew on this thread don't echo those I heard at Hampshire's premiere helicopter unit yesterday, in fact a very senior Chinook pilot referred to her as a f&%king idiot, well within earshot of us humble OR's. Perhaps unfair on her, after all the nasty press must have put words in her well-educated mouth, but nevertheless a differing view from a member of the same breed.

[chinny]

:rolleyes: unfortuneately this "girl" has tarred all the female aircrew with the same brush-dizzy at best,only there cause they are a girl at worst.they are not all scatty-some are very good but some of the male fraternity that read this SURELY cannot be outdone by a "girlie.

Stupid comments made with not a lot of though put into them,with a little too much self importance-my view-would never hear bloke say that-he would be shot for being a woos.:=

cc
VTSP

[viz]

Chill out boys !!

It's only a newspaper article and despite what some of you would like to believe, it doesn't represent what the vast majority of aircrew think. :cool:

[Flap62]

Yes but it now represents what a large proportion of the readership think and that's the problem!

[ranger703]

''...the less stringent tasks of an air trafficker...oops, they might approve the army to fire mortars in an area where you're flying and you might get shot down!''
Well that made me laugh.
Yes, the word 'naive' definitely springs to mind.
And how exactly does this comment make you laugh? Where is the naivety in stating a fact?
If you really think that the mortars surrounding your LZ do not need authorisation to fire when they have a potential vertex height of >8000ft,then it is you that is naive!!

[The Swinging Monkey]

Doobs,
I think you're wrong, not all the aircrew are standing up for her, and I am certainly not. It was a stupid and foolish thing to have done, and I blame her CO and her Captain as much as her for not educating her before.
Sadly, she will probably have got all these remarks and comments stashed away somewhere safe, and before you know it (when she's poss' had enough of living in the sand pit) she will be up in court suing the MOD for harrassment, sexual and otherwise and claiming millions!
Oh God, you can see the headlines now can't you???

As for her remarks about other trades, may I at least offer an apology on behalf of the Aircrew. I am sorry and embarrassed by her remarks about the rest of you - shame on her, but it's not how most aircrew feel, believe me.

Spotty pilot - how old are you really? I've never read such utter drivel in all my life:
'Aviation is an endeavour in which a slight misjudgement made in an instant, under pressure can easily lead to death' What a blinding statement!! Yes, your right, but the same goes for the Air trafickers, the armourers, refuellers, even the little Joe on the gate with a gun. As aircrew, we are NOT the only ones in this world who could potentially kill of injure someone, there are lots out there - infact I would suggest probably most of the miltary could one way or another! (even the cooks!!)
Kind regards to all, especially all the groundies (still not too sure about the blunties though! Oops!!)
TSM

[petop]

Reached ARRSE....http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/t=58412.html

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

TSM,

You are a buffoon of the highest order, you have absolutely no knowledge of the individual in question yet you making your sweeping "she's a girl therefore is bound to sue for harassment when the going gets too tough" generalization :rolleyes:

I do know Caz and am 100% confident that she would look an obviously crusty old sexist like yourself straight in the eye and tell you, very politely to knob off.

She has been back and forward to both sand pits way more times I would suggest than you and most of the sanctimonious arses who have posted here, and is currently showing none of the implied "girlishness" that curmudgeonly sexists like you perceive.

As was alluded to a few posts back if it was a male sky god being "journoed" in this fashion would there be some of the very ill informed vitriol being posted on here...........me thinks not:=

[Wrathmonk]

As was alluded to a few posts back if it was a male sky god being "journoed" in this fashion would there be some of the very ill informed vitriol being posted on here...........me thinks not:=

But had it been a male sky god I wonder how many of the male pruners (particularly those with less than 5 posts!) would be leaping to his defence?:p

It is, however, good to see that chivalry is not dead and that the secret Wiltshire airfield is still full of gentlemen!;)

[Redcarpet]

I am neither crusty nor sexist but the truth of the matter is that the only buffoon is the one who gave the interview. As a service we don't really help ourselves do we? It would be perhaps be understable if the interview was given by an 18 yr old straight out of training but to come from a commissioned officer flying on ops is totally inexcusable. :mad: :mad: :mad:

[The Swinging Monkey]

SFFP
Thank you for your such eloquent remarks - it clearly shows your level of intelligence and understanding.

I have no doubt that the young lady has been to the sand pit more times than I have, but so what? My time there was spent operating in theatre for a couple of months at a time, not trucking to and from! If you would like me to work out my flying hours 'in theatre' please let me know and I'llm be glad to oblige you.

Whatever you feel about my few remarks, I do note that you make absolutely no reference to any of the outrageous ones made by her? Do you agree with them? Do you agree with any of them?

The fact is, this girl was bang out of order, both for giving the interview in the first place and by compounding things with her stupid and ignorant remarks "they might break a pencil" - how sad and pathetic is that?

Yes, I may be old and crusty, and I may even be a bit sexist, and I sadly no longer spend several moths at a time in the sand pit, but I don't think I'm the buffoon here. I think it is she, and possibly you for defending her!

And just for the record, as AIRCREW I am embarrassed by her comments about the troops and so should you be. Without ALL of them, (even the blunties) we wouldn't have anything at all, try to remember that. They don't need to be made to feel any less wanted or respected by pompous and unwarranted comments as made by your young baby co-pilot.

TSM

[Good Mickey]

Caz is a top girl and spot on crew member, I would do a det with her anytime, no problem. So lets give her a break...I'm sure we are all guilty of spouting complete bo££ock$ once in a while. However, not good to 'diss' other trades, unfortunately there seems to be a lot of it about especially at Lyneham. Why do Herc pilots genuinely think they're a cut above the rest?
GM

[threepointonefour]

TSM / Redcarpet,

I'm with you here. Flying into and out of or continually operating in any theatre is largely irrelevant to the question.

The FACT is, she is a Commissioned Officer in the Armed Forces and should know to carefully choose her words in front of self opinionated journalists looking for a good story. She should set the standard for those (by affording them enough respect to not belittle their jobs) around her who have to LIVE for months in the very accommodation she shares and at least have the grace to understand that her discomfort will be over when she gets back to her king size bed in the next 24 hrs.

Would she have the same 'oh well, he/she's a great guy' attitude as some of you here if one of her subordinates had uttered the same things to the press. Maybe she would, but I'll bet she'd have to discipline them nonetheless.


I'm sure she's a great pilot, wonderful young woman and this was just a case of catching her off guard. This is why I think the single biggest failure is that of the PRO/CRO/CCO (whatever acronym works) and her chain of command.

And that fact does not surprise me in the least.

[Chelskiboy]

1 Had an OR given an interview in similar vein they would have been in deep trouble
2 In my experience groundcrew work long hours getting the aircraft ready before and after flight meaning sleep is at a premium when on deployment.
3 Many other personnel are in far more dangerous situations than C-130 aircrew. If I were the army I would be particularly aggrieved as they constantly deal with situations in theatre that can cost a lot more lives than a herc crew.
4 I am sure she makes sure she gets adequate rest when on a red flag or other detachments.
5 Irrespective of how she meant to come across for a supposed intelligent pragmatic individual she hasn't done very well.
6 It is precisely this kind of statement and attitude which creates the them and us condition between aircrew and ground crew.
7. As for the person who claims that having experienced guard duty on IOT and it is easy I suggest they try it in theatre or indeed for a sustained period of time anywhere. Or even living in field conditions for months at a time - That was probably an even more crass statement than the interview.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

I love it when the chipped and ill informed post, it's then easy to make them look silly :rolleyes:

"She should set the standard for those (by affording them enough respect to not belittle their jobs) around her who have to LIVE for months in the very accommodation she shares and at least have the grace to understand that her discomfort will be over when she gets back to her king size bed in the next 24 hrs."

Caz, like the majority of her colleagues will have done over previous years and will continue to do for the foreseeable future several one month detachments to both the sandy places!

Not sure how many she has done to date but the rather silly supposition that she is only there for 24 hours before returning to her comfy fluffy bed and doesn't spend a prolonged period of time on a camp cot is, rather like the poster just plain daft:=

[threepointonefour]

Ok. Did she do 4 or 6 mths solid without going home?

Was she away from her family & friends for 4/6 mths?

Did she indeed go home within a few days?


I'll bet the answers are;
No, no, yes.


You are quick to criticise me, but my main point, which you fail to acknowledge, is that these ill-informed comments should never have got as far as a newspaper.

[threepointonefour]

Ok, for the sake of sanity and probably correctness, I'm prepared to concede that she/you/they will spend lots of time in theatre.

Belittling others who are out there to the press is still inexcusable. As is allowing those comments, by a junior officer, to make it to print.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Chelsea,

"Had an OR given an interview in similar vein they would have been in deep trouble"

Why? If the interview had been approved why would anyone be in trouble?

"In my experience groundcrew work long hours getting the aircraft ready before and after flight meaning sleep is at a premium when on deployment."

As do just about everyone else including the crews, 14 hours on then 10 for 10 days at a time is not unusual!

"Many other personnel are in far more dangerous situations than C-130 aircrew. If I were the army I would be particularly aggrieved as they constantly deal with situations in theatre that can cost a lot more lives than a herc crew."

I don't disagree with some of what you say however bearing in mind how many folk travel in Albert in theater do the sums yourself.

"I am sure she makes sure she gets adequate rest when on a red flag or other detachments."

Possibly or possibly not but as dets other than the desert are few and far between who really knows.

"Irrespective of how she meant to come across for a supposed intelligent pragmatic individual she hasn't done very well."

Correct she has not come across very well but how do you KNOW what she meant and how she hoped to come across when giving the interview?

"As for the person who claims that having experienced guard duty on IOT and it is easy I suggest they try it in theatre or indeed for a sustained period of time anywhere. Or even living in field conditions for months at a time "

What is difficult about guard duty, I have done it in Best blue armed with a pick axe handle, QRF on a nuclear armed base, live armed guard as we are now and guard commander and have yet to find anything difficult about it. Yes it's tiring, boring, tedious pick your own adjective for it but it's certainly not difficult. In fact it's that easy I have colleagues who would rather do a month of it in UK than go on yet another month long living in field conditions sandy det!

There is no them and us, you just think there is :rolleyes:

[threepointonefour]

SFFP,

I'd like to think you're right about "there is no them and us", but how do you think the following reads to "them"?

From the original post: "In Basra I'm supposed to shack up with in the women's tent, but they get up at random times for LESS STRINGENT DUTIES(!!!). If they have a disturbed night, THEY MIGHT DROP THEIR PENCIL(!!!!!) - but I could crash an aircraft ..."
You also said, in response to Chelsea,
"Correct she has not come across very well but how do you KNOW what she meant and how she hoped to come across when giving the interview?"

One can only assume that we knew exactly what she meant (in a good sense - ie, I'd rather bunk with my crew than be disturbed) and that she didn't mean to come across in the manner portrayed by the interviewer. Anything else would be very damning indeed.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

So 3.4 as you agree your previous assertions with regards to fluffy beds were just plain daft have a think about this

"Belittling others who are out there to the press is still inexcusable"

How do you or anyone else for that matter KNOW what context her comments were made in, how she perceived them when she made them and how she hoped/expected them to be portrayed in the final print.........answer you DON'T and as it sadly transpires neither did she.

So maybe a little less pomposity and a bit more there but for the grace of god are the order of the day. I know the girl and would bet my mortgage that she did not mean any of the things written in the manner they were written and all you holier than thou types who simply DO NOT KNOW ALL THE FACTS should be giving her the benefit of the doubt.

[threepointonefour]

How do you or anyone else for that matter KNOW what context her comments were made in, how she perceived them when she made them and how she hoped/expected them to be portrayed in the final print.........answer you DON'T and as it sadly transpires neither did she.Answer: don't be so stupid as to utter such things to the press, regardless of your intention or otherwise.

Q. What are the sleeping arrangements like here?

A. I found that my sleep was disturbed on a number of occasions by the other shift workers so I moved tents and now bunk with my crew who share a common work/rest pattern.

Simple.

[Chelskiboy]

If there is no them and us how can one think there is? by definition the impression must have been created for one to think so!!

Guard duty is tiring ,tedious, boring and when in theatre stressful. Guarding a site in deepest darkest England when no genuine threat exists does not equate. IOT DOES not give you the full flavour and yes any person with sense would rather do guard duty than deploy.

Thank you for confirming that everybody works long stressful hours, something not readily apparent in her interview.

The statement is wrong no matter how you look at it. She must have said something along those lines for it to be printed and yes the press may have put a spin on it.

The fact still remains that for long sustained periods of time more people are in dangerous conditions than the majority of herc crews!!

No matter how you try and defend her the underlying attitude comes across as arrogant whether she intended to or not. So yes the question should be who authorised it, was it approved for release and if so does it not say something about the attitude of the PR that they cannot see the effect this kind of interview has on the military. No them and us just think about it for a second!!!

[The Swinging Monkey]

SFFP

Do you intend to answer any of the questions put to you on this forum or are you just going to sit there and slag off anyone who makes a fair and reasoned comment about what your Girlie co pilot said?

The fact is she screwed up with her remarks, you know it, I know it, everyone knows it, even she will know it by now with hindsight. For goodness sake try to accept that and stop your rudeness to those of us who have voiced our displeasure at her comments. At the end of the day, she is a 'bog-standard, Mk1 Co Pilot' end of story. She is nothing out of the ordinary, and she should not have given the interview in the first place.

I fail to see how "In Basra I'm supposed to shack up with in the women's tent, but they get up at random times for LESS STRINGENT DUTIES(!!!). If they have a disturbed night, THEY MIGHT DROP THEIR PENCIL(!!!!!) - but I could crash an aircraft ..." can possibly be taken out of context - she either said it or she didn't, and you won't deny that she did say it, so whats your argument?

Your defence of her may be commendable, but you must understand that she was totally out of order. If she didn't have the common sense to realise what might happen, then that is both her failure and those of her colleagues - including you. Her comments about our groundcrew were wholly wrong and I very much hope that some very old, very crusty and very sexist Ground Crew Warrant Officer or MACR takes her to one side and 'educates' her in the manner which befits her total lack of tact! That way, she may just think twice before she spouts off at a journo' and ends up looking a prat!

TSM

[threepointonefour]

Well said.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

I think it best I give up with this one as you good folk in here are obviously way more informed on this than me however just as a passing thought.

It's a poor example to use bearing in mind the tragedy of the day but cast your minds back to the tragic loss of the Nimrod and the swathe of highly inaccurate reporting on that day. Do you all remember the vitriol within Prune as the parentage of the journo's was questioned as they allowed their clamor for a story to bring fear and worry into the hearts of so many as they worried about their in theater loved ones. And how on many other occasions we have taken Jacko and others like him to task as regards the morality of their profession.

Now ask yourself if it's possible that someone like Caz, to all intents an innocent at large in the journalistic world could have been sucker punched in this manner by a very streetwise and headline focused journo?

Personally I am giving her the benefit of the doubt but you lot feel free to stay up there on your soap boxes :rolleyes:

[mayorofgander]

I have to share a room with a member of the opposite sex.:p

MOG

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

I think I may have shared it with her as well MOG and on more than one occasion whilst you were away :E

[mayorofgander]

:hmm: :hmm: :hmm: :hmm: :hmm: :hmm: :hmm:

Didn't think you were into ladies???/

MOG:ok:

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Not so sure she was a lady..........well not very ladylike I should say:E

[mayorofgander]

You couldn't have been that good. She always talks about the milkman....
Are you the milkman???:rolleyes:

We don't even get the milk!!!

MOG:ok:

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Well I'm no milkman but I always left her with more than her daily cream requirement:E

[mayorofgander]

Must have been past the sell by date then!!:}

MOG:ok:

[threepointonefour]

Back onto topic...

Personally I am giving her the benefit of the doubt but you lot feel free to stay up there on your soap boxes :rolleyes:Giving her the benefit of the doubt on what exactly?

1. Are you suggesting she didn't say those words (I rather suspect the journo has a tape of the entire conversation - this could be rubbished tomorrow by the MoD in tomorrow's papers if it turns out to be a made up conversation)?
- In this case then she is entirely without fault and I expect to see the smallest of editorial retractions tucked away in the small ads of tomorrow's paper (as usual!). My breath is bated ....


2. Or are you saying that she said them, but we are ALL mis-interpreting them?
- Bad form. As someone else said, we are all one team - don't (to use a modern term) 'diss' the others to the press, no matter how jokey, sarcastic or 'off-the-record' the comment is supposed to be.


3. Or lastly, that she said them but didn't know what she was saying to the press?
- Then let someone who is competent/awake speak to the press.


AFAI can see, the only 'benefit of the doubt' is in point 1 above. The latter 2 show degrees of poor judgement and leadership.



SFFP,

Without rubbishing ME or changing the subject, can you explain what u mean by 'give her the benefit of the doubt'?

[samuraimatt]

blimey 3.14 you are like a stuck record. I think everyting has been said now and you should just let it lie.
Doesn't look really good when one RAF Officer is slagging off another on a public forum.

[threepointonefour]

Read my original posts - my main issue is with the CRO (or equivalent) - I have accepted that we all make mistakes and say things we wish we hadn't.

[samuraimatt]

On and on and on and on........we should call you Ariston from now on.

[threepointonefour]

Whatever .

[samuraimatt]

Ariston and on and on..............:hmm:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sd_KwyJDN4E

[Brown Bear]

3.14 and Swinging Monkey. What is exactly a bog standard co-pilot these days because i certainly do not know ( at least not on the C130 J fleet ).
I know Caz very well and i can assure you that she will be mortified at the controversy this thread has created. I am confident much of what she said has been taken out of context so let it lie and move on. Caz has many friends in the junior ranks who would agree.
I believe all of those in HM Forces are working their nuts of at the moment whether on Det or on their Stns with limited funding and resources.
Lets all hope that those who are in the worst situations are recognised with more than a inflation-equalling pay rise this year!

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

I read the article and thought "Wow.. they do have human beings in the RAF after all".

Only joking, but don't be too hard on the lady. I spent most of my working life in ATC Heathrow, which was frequently visited by journalists. With one or two extremely rare exceptions, the results were little short of utter drivel - much to the acute embarrassment of the staff concerned. As a result I never believe anything the papers..

[The Helpful Stacker]

I'm quite chuffed at the few officers who are standing by us 'erks' and attacking the indefensible said by one of their own. I thought the officers who look out for the OR's had all PVR'd or retired but I was obviously very mistaken.

Some may think it doesn't look good to the press who frequent this site that officers are openly criticising their own but it certainly replaces some of the faith in those who are in charge that I had lost.

TSM - I take my hat off to you Sir.:ok:

[Tinymonkeys]

Bless you and love you all. I love it when the growbags get there knickers all steamed up. I have heard the same kind of stuff for over thirty years from aircrew and despite that I think that your all top blokes (non gender specific). You did drag my sorry arse around the world and didn't get too upset when I completely failed to fix Albert when you wanted to move on. More importantly you didn't chastise me when I fixed it when you wanted to stay.
The problem is that you DO have to be a bit special/dedicated/clever to become aircrew and during training you get told your special (for very good reasons). Then as you go through your career the rest of the RAF supports you, engineers, suppliers, gunners etc. etc. as is right and proper.

What I used to say to anybody that got upset by a thoughtless comment was
"Its not their fault, their brought up that way. Their institutionally selfish. Because their mostly normal and usually good eggs. It isn't a lot worse."

I would then refer them to Tinymonkeys First Law of Aircrew

"When three or more aircrew are gathered in their OFFICIAL capacity. no matter how good a bunch they are individually, you will always have a bunch of c*%ts"

I wouldn't have you any other way

[Dukeyboy]

True to say that I'm sure the Flt Lt in question never intended any offense, and has doubtless been misquoted. I also agree with others that this article should not have been printed, I do think that it shows the RAF in a poor light, though this is more than likely not the fault of said Flt Lt.

I have to admit though, the most worrying thing I think that has come out of this 'debate' is the utter indifference to, and lack of understanding of, non-aircrew branches/trades by SOME of the members of this forum.

[Prop-Ed]

Just out of interest, has anyone involved in "less stringent duties" ever gone on record making a less that complimentary comment about aircrew, and if so, did it cause the same reaction?



In reality, I think we are just getting upset about a bit of misplaced banter.

[The Swinging Monkey]

SFFP,

You are quite correct about the reporting of the Nimrod loss. I lost several very good friends, and was as hoorified, angry and disturbed at the level of reporting - it was nothing less than shameful. I would just say however, that I am certain this young lady was aware of the same shameful and innacurate reporting, which begs the question 'why did she put herself up for this interview?' Do you think she would have been treated differently because she is a girl?

I am sure she is a nice person and probably a good pilot. I am equally certain that she didn't mean to say some of the things she did. But that is no excuse. She did say them, and I suspect that it has annoyed, if not infuriated, many of our groundcrew, who work equally as hard as she does, in far worse conditions than she has and for a lot less money and credit. That is the point I am trying to make here. Her comments have offended people, especially the junior ranks and have made her, and her fellow aircrew, look arrogant fools.

Brown Bear

I have no experience of the J or indeed any mark of Hercules, but are you saying that the J co-pilot is not 'run of the mill' or something? Are they streamed differently than any other multi engine graduate? If they are, and they are not of the standard Mk1 brigade, then I wiill bow to your experience. As for your comments about her popularity amongst the
junior ranks, that remains to be seen, but I would suggest that the amount of controversy generated here seems to suggest differently. She may have been popular, I'm not sure now though. If you genuingly believe that 'those in HM Forces are working their nuts of at the moment whether on Det or on their Stns with limited funding and resources' you will have no difficulty in understanding why her comments have caused offence within the ORs, and if I was in them, I too would be pretty pi$$ed off about it.

Kind regards to ALL, aircrew and groundcrew alike
TSM

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Trying to think of the Forest Gump quote along the lines of stupid is as stupid does :rolleyes:

"I would just say however, that I am certain this young lady was aware of the same shameful and inaccurate reporting, which begs the question 'why did she put herself up for this interview?'"

How do you know she did put her self up for it, or is it just possible that she was "asked" by someone higher up the food chain to DO IT!

"She did say them, and I suspect that it has annoyed, if not infuriated, many of our groundcrew, who work equally as hard as she does, in far worse conditions than she has and for a lot less money and credit. That is the point I am trying to make here. Her comments have offended people, especially the junior ranks and have made her, and her fellow aircrew, look arrogant fools."

At the last count I believe there were over 40,000 folks in the RAF and I count 130 replies on this thread of which a large portion like me have cut the girl some slack. I have seen nothing in the National or local press to suggest this is any more than a storm in a couple of sanctimonious tea cups so maybe it's time a few of you let the subject go:=

[Winco]

Seldom FFP

If you want to put it to bed, why are you encouraging this young ladies' supporters to coninue the fight? What do you want? to continue or retire?

The fact is, that what all of these other chaps are saying is really quite correct I feel. Her comments were foolish and the young lady should have known better, as should her commanding officer and her immediate supervisor, presumably the crew captain or Detco.

You cannot now hold a torch for her claiming that her remarks were taken out of context. I have read carefully the factual content of her interview, of which a large amount was inaccurate, arrogant and disparaging for others, especially the junior ranks of the service, and I too am ashamed that a fellow officer (irrespective of her trade) has belittled our groundcrews in the way that she has.

I very much hope that she learns from her foolish mistake, and she keeps her comments to herself in future. That will ensure that our most valuable of assets are not forced to believe that their contribution to this conflict or to the service as a whole, is not appreciated. As a pilot, she, more than most, should value what her groundcrew do. After all, she puts her life in their hands every day, and for that she should be grateful.

I too would like to apologise to all ground tradesmen and women for the immature comments of this young lady. Your efforts are most certainly appreciated by the rank and file of most of us aviators.

The Winco

[Winco]

Seldom FFP,
What happened to your last post? The one about putting this to bed?
The Winco

[flipster]

People are reading too much into this.

Yes, the young officer said some remarks which did sound out of place and there is no denying that. But it is incredible to believe there was any malice intended. So, the best thing she can do is to set the record straight with all support trades - just say sorry for causing offence, that's all.

However, making a mistake does not make her a bad officer, leader nor pilot - only a human being! (ie we all c0ck-up from time to time - admitting that we do is a sign of strength, not weakness). Let he who is without sin etc etc....

I agree with SFFP - get off your soap-boxes please. :cool: :cool:

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Winco,

Might I suggest a little less alcohol at your age would work wonders:rolleyes:

"I have read carefully the factual content of her interview"

As you obviously have direct access to the reporters notes could you please post them on here so the rest of us can come to a more INFORMED verdict on this matter as opposed to making judgments based on a newspaper article :rolleyes:

"as should her commanding officer and her immediate supervisor, presumably the crew captain or Detco."

Now that made me laugh as once again someone with absolutely no grasp of the facts posts yet more bolleaux:=

"I too would like to apologise to all ground tradesmen and women for the immature comments of this young lady. Your efforts are most certainly appreciated by the rank and file of most of us aviators."

As someone with ground tradesman roots that could not sound more patronising if you tried:rolleyes:

[Winco]

Seldon FFP

Sir, you have just shown yourself to be a very stupid, arrogant and immature individual, who is either blind to reality or just plain stupid. I hate using such language, but your unwarranted comments about me are both rude and offensive.

Of course I do not have access to the original notes, (what another stupid thing to say) but I have read her remarks and if you take the time, you will find a transcript of the interview on page one of this forum.

I think it is high time that you declare what you know about this event, that clearly the rest of us don't. Do you think she was correct in her comments? Have you heard the interview? If we are all wrong, then speak up man, but if, like the rest of us, you are taking the comments by her at face value, then there can be no argument, and I stand by my comments.

I am aware that this is an anonymous forum, but I do hope that those senior officers at Lyneham who are reading this, take you to one side and educate you in the art of diplomacy and respect. If you are an Officer Sir, then you are a disgrace to your Commission. Not because of your defence of this young lady, but because of your rudeness and abusive nature to those who do not agree with your comments.

This certainly shows you in a most poor light Sir, and I feel certain that the junior ranks of the service, who will undoubtedly read this, will view you with contempt and anger. You have humiliated yourself for the whole service to see, shame on you.

And finally, if my comments to the ground crews are regarded as patronising, then I apologise unreservidly. They were not meant to be in the slightest, and I hope that the majority (if not all) of them take my remarks in the spirit and honesty in which they were meant.

How you take them SFFP is frankly irrelevant to me.
Seldon Fit For Purpose?? yes, I can see why now!

The Winco

[viz]

...it gets worse :(

chaps, why don't we stop the in-house, but very public bickering and just agree that the whole episode could have been better handled?

[threepointonefour]

Winco - "I too would like to apologise to all ground tradesmen and women for the immature comments of this young lady. Your efforts are most certainly appreciated by the rank and file of most of us aviators."

As someone with ground tradesman roots that could not sound more patronising if you tried:rolleyes:Ha. And you claim I have a "chipped shoulder".

I see nothing in the above comment by Winco that is patronising in the slightest. With a FJ background, I got to know many of the sqn's groundcrew very well and count a good number of them as friends and colleagues. I'm painfully aware that most are smarter than I and that there is little difference between us in every other respect.

I should venture to comment that whilst you multi aircrew spend lots of time with other offrs and SNCOs, hardly any of you actually know your groundcrew (by definition of centralised engineering, I know). Many of us FJ guys know exactly the worth of those who provide us with the means to get airborne.


ps. Was the Forrest Gump, "Stupid is, as stupid does" aimed at the Pruner you went on to 'disagree' with, or was it directed at the 'subject officer'? You weren't clear??

[samuraimatt]

Hey Ariston how can you apologise for comments made by someone when you don't even know them?

[threepointonefour]

I see nowhere in my post where I apologised for anyone's comments. More drivel from people who can't be @rsed to actually read the post.

Ever thought of becoming a journo, Doormat?


ps. I amended the post, just to make it extra clear.

[Blacksheep]

...Tinymonkeys First Law of Aircrew

"When three or more aircrew are gathered in their OFFICIAL capacity. no matter how good a bunch they are individually, you will always have a bunch of c*%ts"

I wouldn't have you any other wayStop it Tinymonkey - you made me drop my pencil!

The implications for Flight Safety are horrendous and I've asked the Quality Manager to ground the fleet for 24 hours, just to be on the safe side. We can't have pencil dropping old farts wandering about the hangars. I'll file an MOR with EASA as soon as I get my pencil sharpened. :=

[stickmonkeytamer]

The unedited version...

Flt Lt Caz Leavey, C130 pilot……

"The time I get up depends on my duties. It could be as early as 2 or 3 in the afternoon. I’m bleary-eyed and have to carry my stuff all the way from my tent to the bathroom, dropping the kids off on the way. I then shower, shave and get ready — basically by scraping my hair back in a scrunchie and a quick dab of right guard where needed. For some reason being on operations makes all my hair grow really fast. We have breakfast — I eat Alpen, hurriedly, which sometimes gives me gas later on. Then we get our rations for the flight — sausage rolls, pies, fairy cakes, Ben and Jerry’s ice cream, cucumber and smoked salmon sandwiches, wine and cointreau — and fill our canisters with hot water (but not piping) for tea and coffee. I call being in Iraq my fat camp, everyone else is fat or camp… usually both. I think: “Okay, I’m stuck out here for a couple of days, I might as well glean a medal out of it.”
I wear a green flying suit in the bar but I also have a warm-climate, sandy-coloured one for back in the bar at Lyneham — I tease the blokes it’s actually pink like theirs. If we got shot down and captured we’d immediately be identified as RAF crew and sneered at, as we’d have the most money. Now they’re designing pillock-retardant combats for us that blend in with the rest of the troops; then we’ll all get treated equally!
After breakfast we collect a rifle, pistol and ammunition. I’m not a good shot: in training, I used to get the rifle the wrong way round and couldn’t cock the pistol. I guess I was concentrating on being popular with the boys. We then get the tactical information for the day, and set off on a standard route: Baghdad-Kuwait-Baghdad, mainly, or around Iran if we balls it up. Mostly we collect troops or ferry them around in theatre [the theatre of operations]. There’s a nice Sheraton in Kuwait where I can get a decent bath and shave.
My parents were both cabin crew, so its amazing they managed to breed at all. My sixth birthday was spent in the cockpit of a 747, gaily munching “cake” on “the captain’s” knee. My original dream was to be a hooker, but I fell short of the ugly tree altogether and landed on the tarmac beside it so I wouldn’t have made very much in that game – They wouldn’t even let me go to Sandhurst I look so rough.
I was pretty despondent, so my brother, who’s a proper pilot, suggested joining the University Air Squadron. It was exhilarating. I could fly a Bulldog before I got my degree, but long-term I had no idea what I wanted to fly, and my decision was based on location, location, location. I’m a blonde at heart, so that ruled out Nimrods because they’re based in Scotland and I didn’t want to serve abroad. That left Brize Norton, with its VC10s, TriStars and C-17s, or Lyneham, where the Hercules are based. I liked Lyneham more because it rains in Brize Norton.
I’ve been to Iraq seven times in the last couple of years, and I’ve always been hairy as a result. But it’s even thicker now. In Basra I’m supposed to shack up in the women’s tent, but they get up at random times for less stringent duties and they all hate me because I’m very patronizing and prettier than all of them put together. If they have a disturbed night, they might drop a pencil (bless) — but I could crash an aircraft and frequently do. I’m not supposed to sleep with the guys, but I do. They seem not to mind the smell of my flying boots. In theatre I need to be with my crew constantly – I’m so insecure around people who aren’t pilots as well. We sleep, eat and work alongside each other and tell flying stories to anyone who’ll listen.
When rain floods the tents it’s bad. The guys mock me for bringing a Samsonite suitcase with me, but when their Bergens are soaked through and mine is bone-dry inside, they’re begging to put their mobiles, lingerie, duvets and laptops in it. I once saw a mouse and had to be CASEVAC-ed [rushed out of theatre to the nearest good hotel] for a week.
I have to put up with a bit of a hoo-ha when I’m lugging my ass off the aircraft, but you wouldn’t be a woman in the forces if you couldn’t take a “bit of stick” – as they say.
The first time I made a night approach into Basra, rockets were exploding on the runway. I’d been through the ropes in the simulator, but a real explosion is really really loud! I had to fly into Kuwaiti airspace to get a clean flying suit on. About two hours later we landed fine, but I felt bad for my 80 troops on board. It’s like: “Welcome to the base — I’m only here for a couple of minutes; you have got 6 months and not a hotel in sight.” They’re crazy to do that for so little money.
Our day can be 24 hours long but sometimes they’re shorter by a couple of minutes for some reason I’ve never understood. Lunch depends on what we eat — at the American bases there’s Burger King and I really get stuck in. But I feel safer in the sky – you’re almost weightless and nobody can see my face if I’m sitting at the front with a big hat on. When you’re being rocketed on the ground you feel completely helpless. You just repair to your tent (which is much safer because they’re made of canvass and they don’t aim for them) and hope. You hear a “whooo” before a rocket lands and an ahhhh when it goes off – lots of pretty colours, then the ground shakes and the tent sucks in and you’re frozen as you feel the vacuum after the blast – maybe that’s an avalanche; I do get so confused sometimes. One of my current boyfriends was in the RAF for 10 years, and he once said: “If the rocket’s got my name on, my name is Arianne VII.” That calms me down.
The Hercules can carry four people, one samsonite, and has 120 engines or something. Once, a warning came up saying “engine vibration high”. I reduced the power but it didn’t go away, and eventually they found the offending article sill switched on in my suitcase! returned to base very embarrassed. It wasn’t a pic-nic, for the next couple of weeks I can tell you. But once I buggered up a landing, and the crew were like: “What the hell was that?” It isn’t always your fault: the wind might change or you forget to put the wheels down, and a Hercules hasn’t got air brakes, so you may have to land right at the front of the runway. I’ve never done serious damage to an aircraft I was in, but I expect I’ve caused a couple of write-offs like in my polo.
We get basic escape and evasion training, but in my view if you can’t limp to a Maccy-D’s, you’re a goner. A Hercules went down between Balad and Baghdad two years ago. The co-pilot was a close friend of mine. I was in a panto at Brize Norton when we got the news. It was devastating. Some of my colleagues went to 10 funerals. When I joined up there was no war and I didn’t think about that side of things – I thought was joining the RAC for the first couple of weeks. But when I’m flying, no emotion interferes: I remain cool, detached and professional for most of the flight and only cry for ten or so minutes before landing. It’s on the ground I run round like a hot potato – have you seen them go the little blighters? Theyr’e not like cold ones at all.
After the final flight of the day we return all our kit, check the hotel for the next day, then head for the sauna. I have a light supper, or I’ve got the energy, go for a heavy one. In the evening, DVDs are the main form of entertainment — except I can’t persuade the lads to watch the movies I have been in, so I take my laptop and eat pringles, by myself on my camp bed – it makes me happy. I read a lot too. Then, as long as there are no sirens or rockets to watch, I go to sleep. I always pray that I don’t get bullied by the girls in the night. In my dreams I really am a beautiful princess and everyone likes me."

SMT:ok:

[The Helpful Stacker]

Thank God they edited some of that out, otherwise she would have sounded really stupid.

;)

[threepointonefour]

Funny, maybe.

I don't care how you want to paint it, it is no way for a commisioned officer to talk to the press.

[The Swinging Monkey]

SFFP,

I have never seen such an unwarranted outburst at a fellow PPruner as yours to the Winco last night. It typifies your ineptitude to appreciate other peoples views on the matter, and I am astonished by your comments. I do hope that

I can't be bothered anymore to continue trying to explain things to you. You clearly know more about this that the rest of us put together - maybe even more than the journo' himself. You will undoubdtedly go a long way in this Air Force, and my only hope is that someone on the Hercules fleet, with a little more experience and common sense than you helps you out soon, because you certainly need it.

Stickmonkeytamer - I loved it! The only worrying thing is that it is probably quite near to the truth! No doubt that idiot SFFP will prove us all wrong, and come charging to the ladies rescue, but I did enjoy reading it nevertheless, thanks.

TSM

[teeteringhead]

it is no way for a commisioned officer to talk ... I blame the graduate entry scheme and backdated seniority.....

...... if she'd have been a Flying Officer (like co-pilots are supposed to be), then everyone would have known she was going to talk b:mad:cks. ;)

No offence Caz - you've been stitched by the system.

[threepointonefour]

Link: Times Article (http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/article1344341.ece)

Interesting that there were no positive comments at the bottom of the page. Where are all you supporters claiming it was taken 'out of context'?

[RETDPI]

The inevitable and predictable blow-back.
Saddening.
I hope for all our sakes that SFFP will not now be imparting the benefit of his charm and wisdom to the readership of The Times.

[212man]

"It’s like:"

Do officers actually talk like this now? Do they say "whatever" and "wassup" too?

[Strictly Jungly]

Stacker, you erk,

Its not a case of us officers sticking up for you erks.............its a case of someone spouting B@@llocks to the press...........now run along and stack some more things:ugh:

[Clockwork Mouse]

I suspect that two of the comments under the article in The Times were put in by Pruners.

I enjoyed the article for what it was, an informal verbal account of how a young female RAF pilot spends her working time. She comes across as a nice, balanced, if still rather naive, young girl with a sense of humour. Gave me a refreshing and positive image of the RAF. The pencil comment was unfortunate, but so what and the public would not pick up on it. And if you think she talked to the journo off her own bat for her own glorification without clearance from the PROs and chain of command, who probably chose her for the interview, you are way off beam.

I have subsequently been left with a much more negative image of the RAF and your collective chipped shoulders since reading the tripe written here on Prune, bigoted, ignorant, envious, sexist and downright viscous in several cases. This put in by people who are claiming self-righteously that it was Caz who has let the side down.

Give me strength!

[samuraimatt]

I hope you read the above post Ariston. As for that attempt at humour by SMT, well that is just rubbish and does no one anygood.

[teeteringhead]

"It’s like:" ... even worse (if correctly reported), she said "planes"!

On day one I was told two things never to say:

"planes" - unless referring to wood-smoothing carpentry tools

AND

"raff" as a pronunciation of R.A.F (yes, we had fullstops in abbreviations then!)

....... omigawd .... I'm beginning to sound like BEags :ugh:

[threepointonefour]

I repeat my 2 points for the benefit of Windup Mouse and Samuraiprat.


1. It is no way for any member of the armed forces to talk to the press, especially an officer/leader.

2. What the &*$@ where the CC/CR people doing letting this get to press? I'm quite sure she didn't do this of her own volition (talk to the press) which makes it all the worse that someone deemed her comments fit for publication in the National press.


Please disagree with me all you like, but I have neither been sexist, bigoted, envious (?!) nor defamatory about this young officer. I have only pointed out that her comments, amusing as they may be, are inflammatory and somewhat naive when seen in print.

Thankfully for us all, I'll say no more on this thread (until you goad me into another pointless post that you won't actually read).


ps. Teeteringhead - I'm with you on both points. I've never been in the raff.

[Winco]

Clockwork Mouse.

You are incorrect, she did not come over as a 'nice, balanced, if still rather naive, young girl' She came across as a silly, rarther ill-informed and somewhat arrogant young lady, who gives the impression of being 'better than you, because I'm a pilot'

I applaud your sense of loyalty to her, as with SFFP, but you must face up to the fact that she has let the side down and let her own side down quite badly. That may, in part, be the fault of her colleagues and superiors, but she is undoubtedly to blame for the comments about groundcrew.

I agree it is time it was put to bed, but you chaps must understand the amount of ill feeling this has caused and still appears to be causing to our junior ranks. Your further vitriolic remarks against them is only adding to their annoyance and frustration of the events, and I gurantee that you will not win them over by your commarks.

I would suggest that you get the young lady concerned to come on to pprune and offer an unreserved apology for her remarks, and have done with it. Maybe then we can get some closure on the matter and put it to be for good. In the meantime, in this age of 'on the spot journolism' perhaps you could inform everyone of the dangers of speaking to the press either on the record or off it? It may just avoid another problem like this.

The Winco

[samuraimatt]

I would suggest that you get the young lady concerned to come on to pprune and offer an unreserved apology for her remarks

Why should she? Just to satisfy you pompous arrogant twits? You are after all so perfect. It is you lot that won't let this go. This really pales into insignificance when you consider the amount of people being killed on a daily basis on the streets of Iraq. You lot should be hounding Tony Blair for the withdrawal of our troops from Iraq not going on about one badly written article in the newspaper.

[RETDPI]

"You lot should be hounding Tony Blair for the withdrawal of our troops from Iraq..."
I think you're on the wrong forum.

[3 bladed beast]

Winco

''She came across as a silly, rarther ill-informed and somewhat arrogant young lady, who gives the impression of being 'better than you, because I'm a pilot''

I can assure you she is in no way arrogant, silly, or ill-informed and she does not think she is better than other people because she is a pilot.

She has done an interview, which I suspect she wont do again, however a large deal has been made out of this, more so than is needed.

Lets look at the bigger picture ,with press interviews and look at the constant lies of our politicians and our wonderful PM and judge why we are in Iraq in the first place.

[Lucifer]

What journo tosh this story is - she's obviously done a "day in the life" piece with good intentions, but it has gone out totally unedited by any PR person in the MoD, resulting in "snippets", which out of context make her and the RAF look a little silly.

I suspect that the RAF/MoD was approached for the story, and she has been flung into the arms of the journo with little appropriate support, or indeed none whatsoever.

Blame the PR - or the lack of.

[InfraBoy]

Having spent 4 months working 6 1/2 day weeks while on call for 4* 24hrs of each of those weeks at BAS, it was my guys repairing the runway inbetween aircraft landings so that it remained open. And while those in offices complained whenever their aircon wasn't cool enough and the techies worked their gu*s to turn the aircraft around in the heat (direct, reflected of aircraft and ASP) we continued to pay lip service to the heat stress index to continue to repair the hardstandings. So for those of you operating that saw semi-naked engineers (RE's) on the airfield that was because they had been out there far too long but wanted to get the work done.

As for myself, perhaps 2 1/2 days a week had 'normal' hours but I'd like to state that while I was up and down at strange hours with call-outs I always tried to not disrupt the rest of the tent, and one of them was the IntO on odd shifts too and he never distrupted the rest of us and I'd like to think that the majority of people were that thoughtful. The CRO would probably have been an educator carrying it out as a 2nd primary task but obviously not fully 'educated' in the art of OOA media!

The day in thelife of a trucky - priceless, far too familiar! So what am I saying? Please don't think of those of us that don't fly as not caring or trying. We may not have as important-a-job as the air-crew do but we put our best into what we do that supports our mighty service effort! Oh, and when I left the tents didn't leak!!! But that was obviously a year before.

[Winco]

3bb

What I merely said was that she came over in that way, or do you also disagree with that? A lot is being made out of it because people like you keep defending her, instead of agreeing that she made a mistake. That is all I am suggesting she does - own up, say sorry and ask for it to be put to bed. As long as the likes of yourself keep defending her, it will continue on and on.
She is NOT a politician, so I fail to see what your point is here. We have come to expect from our politicians, but NOT from a Commissioned Officer in the Royal Air Force, or can't you see that side of it?

samuraimatt
Was there any need for your name calling? You look a fool when you stoop to that - try to grow up a little and act with a certain degree of maturity. If you had taken the time to read my last posting, I did actually explain that an apology would go a long way to closure of the matter, and thats whay I suggested it. Calling me a 'pompous arrogant twit' puts you in the same league as NFFP which is sad for you.

Maybe the time has come to ask the nice moderator chaps to pull the plug on this one eh?

The Winco

[samuraimatt]

Maybe the time has come to ask the nice moderator chaps to pull the plug on this one eh?

I quite agree.

That way it will stop you and your cohorts from continuing this hounding of an RAF Officer. I am sure she is embarrassed enough with the outcome of the article without you banging on about it in this high and mighty way.

[Ivan Rogov]

Isn't there some media training that personnel are supposed to have before letting the press loose on them? 7644 Sqn perhaps?
This looks like a classic own goal by the PR spin machine. Like it or not the media plays a crucial part in almost all modern military campaigns, in fact some would argue that the media can win or lose them. 'Civilized' countries often don't have the resolve to do what is required win, especially when they are shown the results on a daily basis.
What happened to keeping your details out of the press (especially when in theatre!), aircrew have been taught this, aren't all personnel now taught this in pre-deployment training? This is how we should think trough out our time in the service, not now and then. It's not like anything could happen to you or your family back to Blighty either (see press for details), just how difficult is it to trace a name to an address, phone number etc. If you don't believe me Google your name, are you ex directory, what's on your name badge?
Top tip, stay away from cameras and reporters unless you really know what you are doing!:ok:
Don't get me started on Bloggs from theatre! :\

[plans123]

Yes - why don't we just sweep it under the carpet and imagine that it just didn't happen........:D
You need a reality check. I'm sorry, but its things like this that damage the aircrew/ground crew (all ground trades included in this) relationship. Do you honestly think that any ground crew, will want to do anything to help her since she marginalised them all in one sweeping statement?
You reap what you sow I'm afraid. :ugh:

[justanotherday]

SFFP

Your name just about sums it up!:D

I have never seen such an arrogant, self-important reply on this forum. It doesn't matter if what she said was taken out of context, she said it. It was a stupid statement but I also agree with many of the other replies that this should never have got past her OC, DETCO or the CRO.

As one of those who does "less stringent duties" I am offended by her apparent disregard for those who allow her to complete her mission.:=

What does she think the rest of the detachment does when she is airborne? Where does her food come from? What about weapons? Who sorts her pay out? Who makes sure the aircraft is fit to fly? Who spends much of her sleeping hours preparing the int, ops and met data? All three services, at all ranks and in all trades work just as hard if not harder. She is the talk of all three services, and none of it is good.

So rather than defend her because you think she is a good egg, agree with the rest of us that the article was foolish and naive at best and has caused a great deal of resentment and a level of anger from those of us who are not "clever enough" to fly.:ugh:

[Mr-Burns]

What was she doing out of the kitchen in the first place????

[3 bladed beast]

Just another day

''So rather than defend her because you think she is a good egg, agree with the rest of us that the article was foolish and naive at best and has caused a great deal of resentment and a level of anger from those of us who are not "clever enough" to fly.:ugh: ''

I can agree in context, but without actually knowing for sure what was said, and that it is not Journo manipulation, I will continue to defend her a a person. And she is a good person.

As for Mr Winco you say:

'' That is all I am suggesting she does - own up, say sorry and ask for it to be put to bed.''

How would you suggest she does this? On this wonderful forum, RAF News or possibly another article in The Times??:ok:

[gar170]

Qoute
"What is difficult about guard duty, I have done it in Best blue armed with a pick axe handle, QRF on a nuclear armed base, live armed guard as we are now and guard commander and have yet to find anything difficult about it. Yes it's tiring, boring, tedious pick your own adjective for it but it's certainly not difficult."

Staying out of prison when you shoot somebody who is some where he shouldn't be or in other words doing your job.

[MechGov]

Just an opinion, but..... What is the fascination with bitching about the RAF AT fleet on PPrune? We air our washing, snipe at each other and generally do our best to look like spoilt children on a very public forum. It demeans us. We are now at 8 or 9 pages of this drivel and it’s embarrassing and tedious. Perhaps we should all forgive and forget and for those of you who can't forgive or indeed feel that forgiveness is unnecessary maybe just move onto the forget bit.

[edwardspannerhands]

I see the Equal Ops Course was wasted on you then Chutley!!:rolleyes:

[Mach the Knife]

Crikey, bar must be chucking out early tonight.

[ProfessionalStudent]

Sorry Chutley. Is the e-goat server down?

[Brown Bear]

TSM, thanks for your comment in reply to my previous post but i never post anything i never genuinely believe in. As far as all the ground trades are concerned i think they are all doing a fantastic job with limited manpower and resources.
I`m not sure how much you know about the streaming process but it is true to say that to get posted to the C130J or C17 they would have done quite well at 45(R) Sqn (Multi Engine Trg Sqn) .....its all part of flying an aircraft where you do not have a Nav or Air Eng to bail you out. So yes....I do not think there is such a thing as a Mk1 bog-standard co-pilot when you are asking them to fly into hostile places on a regular basis. That is not to say they are worth more than other co-pilots, I just feel we should move away from giving a gear monkey stereotype impression. Maybe you know more than me on the streaming process or life as a C130 J Co-pilot but i doubt it.

Caz did make an unfortunate remark but i doubt very much it was made maliciously. If it was banter then that was also an error of judgement. I am sure she would apologise to any individual that is losing sleep over this.

What i am surprised at is the experienced SNCOs who are contributing to this thread and are hell bent on starting an "us and them" debate. Grow up boys and girls and pass on constructive criticism and lets stop slagging each other off.

I have earned my operational medals many times over and have been proud to work with both my aircrew colleagues and groundcrew alike.

Last post from me on this one.....time to move on when the civilian posts on this thread are making the most sense!!!:D

[Clockwork Mouse]

My dear Winco

I have just seen your post addressed to me. I admit that I am as surprised by your extraordinary presumption and arrogance as I have been by the aggressive tone of many of your fellow Caz bashers.

I infer from your remarks in other posts that you are, or were, an RAF officer. If that is the case, then attacking another officer IN PUBLIC is un-officerlike, counter-productive and is far less defensible than anything young Caz was reported as saying in The Times article.

Why do you attribute my remarks to a "sence of loyalty to her?" I am not, nor ever was, in the RAF and I don't know her from Eve and have no reason to harbour any sence of loyalty towards her. But then neither do you.

If she did indeed let the side down badly, as you maintain, the general public would probably never have noticed it until you and your fellow bashers started laying into her IN PUBLIC. And make no mistake about it, Prune IS very public.

You then suggest I should get the young lady to make an unreserved apology on Prune. And why would I want to do that? I do not know her, nor am I in the RAF. This is your own, internal, self-indulgent, RAF cat-fight, which I find rather distasteful and certainly damaging to the image of your service. But I, thankfully, am not part of it.

And finally, you suggest that I inform everyone of the dangers of speaking to the press. OK! I will make a start. Winco, old bean, take your own advice and be aware of the dangers of washing your dirty linen IN PUBLIC.

[Pontius Navigator]

Ivan Rogov, I think your post is one worth responding to.

Isn't there some media training that personnel are supposed to have before letting the press loose on them? 7644 Sqn perhaps?
This looks like a classic own goal by the PR spin machine. Like it or not the media plays a crucial part in almost all modern military campaigns, in fact some would argue that the media can win or lose them. 'Civilized' countries often don't have the resolve to do what is required win, especially when they are shown the results on a daily basis.

There is a media ops course at Halton and complementary TV courses etc. These are usually well subscribed and aimed at those who will be giving interviews as part of their job - Al Lockwood for instance - or who might become involved in the event of an incident - Stn Cdrs for instance. Then there are courses for minders and MCOs.

What happened to keeping your details out of the press (especially when in theatre!), aircrew have been taught this, aren't all personnel now taught this in pre-deployment training? This is how we should think trough out our time in the service, not now and then. It's not like anything could happen to you or your family back to Blighty either (see press for details), just how difficult is it to trace a name to an address, phone number etc. If you don't believe me Google your name, are you ex directory, what's on your name badge?

Nothing new there but once, when I refused to give my details for the 'Home Town Story' I was told I would be banned from the trip. I caved and the press did not use the story anyway - I had been 15 years away. Yes aircrew are taught and try to keep to the Big-4 and are then pressed to give an interview. Blame the MCO.

Top tip, stay away from cameras and reporters unless you really know what you are doing! Yup, spot on but see above.

Journos get invited by the MOD to visit theatres and get home town stories. Home town stories are the bread and butter of the local rag and worth quids. Land something like this and its worth big bucks. It is the delicate balance between No News and Good News.

The US Navy learnt that lesson the hard way in GW1. They went all hard-nosed and kicked the press off the boat. The USAF and Army released all the footage they could. Who had a hard time at the next defense bidding round?

The RAF also learnt to its cost that it needed good useable air-ground video for the News. The French released some brilliant footage early on. Only when the guys took their camcorders airborne did the RAF get some good footage. PR is everthing.

It will be interesting to here what the MCOs have to say at the symposium in a couple of weeks.

[samuraimatt]

My dear Winco

I have just seen your post addressed to me. I admit that I am as surprised by your extraordinary presumption and arrogance as I have been by the aggressive tone of many of your fellow Caz bashers.

I infer from your remarks in other posts that you are, or were, an RAF officer. If that is the case, then attacking another officer IN PUBLIC is un-officerlike, counter-productive and is far less defensible than anything young Caz was reported as saying in The Times article.

Why do you attribute my remarks to a "sence of loyalty to her?" I am not, nor ever was, in the RAF and I don't know her from Eve and have no reason to harbour any sence of loyalty towards her. But then neither do you.

If she did indeed let the side down badly, as you maintain, the general public would probably never have noticed it until you and your fellow bashers started laying into her IN PUBLIC. And make no mistake about it, Prune IS very public.

You then suggest I should get the young lady to make an unreserved apology on Prune. And why would I want to do that? I do not know her, nor am I in the RAF. This is your own, internal, self-indulgent, RAF cat-fight, which I find rather distasteful and certainly damaging to the image of your service. But I, thankfully, am not part of it.

And finally, you suggest that I inform everyone of the dangers of speaking to the press. OK! I will make a start. Winco, old bean, take your own advice and be aware of the dangers of washing your dirty linen IN PUBLIC.

Well well well someone has seen sense as well. This public and pathetic attempt by Winco and his cohorts to get her to make an apology is just counter-productive and serves no purpose. Let it go and get on with your own lives.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

You have to smile, you really do :rolleyes:

Go on then justanotherday please explain to me

"I have never seen such an arrogant, self-important"

Apart from trying to defend a colleague how on earth, bearing in mind not a single soul on here has a clue who I am, how do you arrive at the above, surely I would be shouting my name from the roof tops if what you say is correct.

"It doesn't matter if what she said was taken out of context, she said it."

So do you know what context was it said in? There is no sane person on the planet who would argue the implications of dropping a pencil or porking up at 250 kts and 250' in Albert but how do you or anyone else here know exactly what was said during the interview:rolleyes:

I further state that could I be bothered to trawl through the thousands upon thousands of posts in the Aircrew forum I would find hundreds of references to "the dropped pencil" from aircrew and a variety of other trade groups, take a peek at the JPA thread for some classic examples.
For those old enough to remember there was even a flight safety vid, I think it was called Break the Chain where one of the main contributing factors to a FJ mate almost stoofing in was a particularly unhelpful admin wallah, so it;s not exactly a new thought process :=

In conclusion there are 3 main types folks posting on this thread.

Those who are looking in with bemusement and wondering why in the big scheme of life this is such an issue.

Those of us with first hand knowledge of Caz who know that without a doubt the accusations leveled at her on this thread are groundless, after all is there one post yet from anyone at Lyneham who actually knows her, groundcrew or aircrew actually condemning her?

Then there are those who are armed with a little knowledge, who despite their better instincts have taken the word of a journalist at face value, made a judgment call and have gone after Caz in a most cowardly fashion........shame on you.

If you want a classic example of this check out the "a flying air trafficker" thread :ugh:

[The Swinging Monkey]

SFFP,

OK, I wasn't going to waste any more time, but I've got a few minutes before the first little jaunt of the day, so here goes.

This is what you said;
In conclusion there are 3 main types folks posting on this thread.

Those who are looking in with bemusement and wondering why in the big scheme of life this is such an issue. Yes, would agree with you there.

Those of us with first hand knowledge of Caz who know that without a doubt the accusations leveled at her on this thread are groundless, after all is there one post yet from anyone at Lyneham who actually knows her, groundcrew or aircrew actually condemning her? No, sorry. The only accusations being levelled at her are that she said the wrong things, thats the fact of the matter. And as for no one at Lyneham making comment, so what? Are you now saying that means that she didn't say those things?

Then there are those who are armed with a little knowledge, who despite their better instincts have taken the word of a journalist at face value, made a judgment call and have gone after Caz in a most cowardly fashion........shame on you. Sorry, can't agree there. you are just being silly!

This is your problem; You have a young Girlie co-pilot who has screwed up, absolute fact, unless you know something that the rest of us on this forum don't know of course?? If that is the case, then stop talking crap and tell us what she did actually say. Did she or did she NOT say those things? especially the bits about the groundcrew? Please, just for once on this forum try to answer the question.

If she didn't say those things and the transcript is wrong, then I will gladly make a public apology to the young lady, and have a rant about the journo, but you and your colleagues never ever deny what was reported, instead you choose to bleat on about it being taken out of context. I therefore have I believe the comments as reported, because you don't have the courage to admit she was wrong.

I don't have a poroblem with you defending the girl as a fellow officer. As I have said before to you and others it is admirable loyalty. What I am suggesting is that it is misguided loyalty, and you should show an equal amount of loyalty, if not more, to your own groundcrew instead of a fellow officer in this instance, who clearly made a big mistake by spouting off in the manner she did.

As for your particular groundcrew not saying anything, you will be telling us next that you are a mind reader and know what they are thinking! I'll bet you that they and most other groundcrew are pretty annoyed at her comments. I can tell you that it has been the talk of the groundcrew where I am for several days, with lots of them asking 'Hey Sir, do you know that %&%$£"$^*&*& of a co-pilot down at Lyneham?' to which I am pleased to say that I don't!

She made a mistake, you have defended it, which is wrong. Admit it and accept it.

TSM

[Wrathmonk]

Perhaps SFFP is Caz .....:E

[I've_got a traveller]

Well he acts like a little girl!! Boo Hoo:{

[cyrilranch]

Just a thought have any of you with a problem with this lady have ask her her thoughts as you are all in the same sevice and should have a telephone directory number for her!
As a outsider all this talk is worst than what she had said right or wrong.

just my 2 pence.

:sad:

[JamesA]

Another civilian view, (just to get the agro going, cos we civvies don't know what it is like in the sand box and away from home all the time. Thought the service was your home).

When I was (here we go again), in the RAF, under the list of treasonable offences was 'Talking to the press' We were instructed not to discuss ANY matters with persons of the press, if approached then said person should be referred to officer XYZ. Now, as a civilian, there is a clause in our contracts to refer press approaches to the head office, this does not regarding military contracts but general activities.
So, I see a clear lack of following procedure, not necessarily by this unfortunate, now, scape goat, but a failure of the system.

Scanning through this thread seeing the fores and againsts, my two pennorth suggests the lady was specially chosen to tell the press about her day because:- (delete non-applicable)
1 She is the only girly driver on site, therefore extra newsworthy
2 She is not flying today and has time to waste talking to journalists
3 She has been told she WILL give an interview when she returns from flight
4 Add your own reasons, being current serving members.
I can imagine #3 and returning from an extended (we are not allowed to state how many hours, self incriminating, etc.), day, having been given instruction from PR officer or whatever they are called, decides she doesn't want to do it therefore, gives scribe want he/she wants to hear, add a bit of baiting from said scribe and voila there is the Article.
Poor girl is in debt up to her arm pits having to buy many 'I didn't mean to say that' beers in the mess for all offended. I don't think slaggers-off on this forum qualify.
I know I am not at my best or most pleasant after an 18 hour day, even when not frequenting some of the nicer places you folks hang out in, so why should anybody else be ready for the press interogation after a flight.

Leave the girl alone and go after the idiot who put her up for this without either briefing her properly or holding her hand and guiding her through the interview.

As has already been said this is a lot of molehill making and has only added to bringing the good name of the RAF down. Not many people read the Sunday Times, stop boosting their circulation.

Everybody is perfect, until one day.

Experience is only learned afterwards.

[foxdelta69]

I had the prestigious honour of working with the K in Iraq. Those crews never once mentioned crew duty time and were available any time of the day at a minutes notice. True professionals. They were subjected, as we all were, to daily bombardment from mortars and rockets and then they climbed into their Albert and flew some very long missions, once again in harms way. It beggars belief that this particular J Officer has the nerve to moan and bleat that her conditions are far from ideal or that she has had her sleep interupted. She needs to think about her oppos in other areas in conditions far worse than hers (if her conditions are in fact 'bad'). The rotary crew females that I have known do not worry if they are tented with their male colleagues. They were always too knackered to worry about any modesty. As for breaking pencils, theres only one place I want to break some pencils and it is not publishable here!
Get a grip girl.

[propulike]

Those crews never once mentioned crew duty time and were available any time of the day at a minutes notice. True professionals.Sounds like it. :hmm:

Perhaps different tasks?

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Fox,

I read your other post so I think I know the crews you are referring to and you are quite correct with your assertions but their task/tasking was very very different to the day to day stuff the rest of us mere mortals do.

Without some sort of crew duty/rest considerations the daily scheduled tasking we do would never be achieved, but the guys you worked with did not have the same schedule based constraints and were therefore able to react to their "users" needs in the thoroughly professional way the did and still do.

The natural assumption is that they do all the dangerous stuff and the rest of us haul trash and in the main that is a fair conclusion as they go to some very dodgy places indeed, however consider the loss last year of the Herc in Herrick and the recent loss of another in Telic and you will see that there is always danger lurking round the corner irrespective of your type or specialisation.

You like so many others in here have allowed journalistic license to cloud your judgment and I will not waste my time trying to dissuade you however I would offer my kids into Arab slavery if you actually met her and within 5 minutes hadn't realised what a crock of sh1t the article written about her is :ok:

[1000CC'soffun]

And still the story continues.:}

I have to say that I agree with many on this forum, that some comments that Caz made, (even if perhaps "adjusted" for the artilcle) were silly or misplaced.

I do not know Caz, but I would like to think that she would not have tried intentionally, in a public newspaper article, to "big" herself up or to belittle those who are not of the pilot or aircrew fraternity.

IF Caz did really say and mean those comments to which this thread is all about then she deserves every bit of abuse aimed at her.
However,
I believe Caz was talking casually with this Journo, and perhaps came out with some comments (that in the RAF are used daily as "banter" between personnel) that perhaps she now wishes she had not said. (The article would have been no worse if they had not been published)

I know in this PC world that we live in, even now I will give as good as I get, "banter" is banter, it has gone on between groundcrew and aircrew since the first pilot flew in the military. It goes on between Movers and Teccies, Aircrew and Movers, Teccies and Admin and Aircrew and everyone. Banter is Banter, the military thrive on it, however many (non) military people can not tolerate the level of banter we sometimes use. Sure, everyone must at some stage admit to making a comment that belittles someone else compared to them, we are human, we like to think we are sometimes better than someone else, it can (sometimes) be reffered to as personal pride (perhaps) in your own mind.

I think some of the comments she made should have been confined to the bar, and not made to the general populus.
My partner (a civvie) read the article and said "Who does she think she is, what a childish comment to make, does she think she is the only one who is important in the RAF".

Childish comment............I think that may sum this up, and the constant bickering between some of the PPRuNer's on this thread........the same.

Come on guys, keep the morale up by banter at work, keep it at work though. or let's start a banter thread where we can just be childish ourselves, (oh, we have) banter however is only banter when you know the other person(s), if you don't then it suddenly becomes "slagging".

Just a thought mind.

Disclaimer

Whilst these are my views they may not neccessarily mirror those of other members of this site.

[exrotarybooty]

I am sooooooooo glad the Royal Marines Commandos are still a male only organisation! :)

Especially when I remember the female Army Capt completing the All Arms Commando Course, but never actually serving with 3 Cdo Bde RM after all the fuss.

(However, I did marry a WRAF Flt Lt Admin Sec, and served in the RAF for 13 years!)

ERB

[Gainesy]

Personally, I think Caz dropped in a bit of light-hearted anti-Blunt banter and this is hard to denote in print. That's why these :) were developed.

[Green Flash]

There is no such thing as 'off the record'. Journo's about? - keep trap shut. Become invisible. I learnt this the (nearly) hard way.:ouch:

[1000CC'soffun]

Gainsey, I think you may be correct about the ":) ". Read on!

I expect by now, if people have been bothered to read this far on this thread then they must be fed up about it all anyway.

Anyway, ultimately NO STICK, NO VOTE is the only way, so everyone who isn't a pilot need not apply (i.e blunty pen droppers) and shouldn't be posting on this site anyway. :)

Incoming.......................

[oldflyboy]

Dear Posters,

Although in the business, albeit the less scary civilian side, I am a regular reader of Prune and happened upon the military forum and this thread while awaiting a light lunch from Mrs Oldflyboy. I must say, though I respect that lots of you seem to have become very agitated about the perception that the Service may have been belittled by the Sunday Times article, you do seem to be getting your collective knickers in a twist about it!

Mrs OFB and I read the article with some interest, and our only comments were of the " Thank the Lord we dont have to do that, sounds like a horrific way to earn a living and are we not lucky that there are lots of young Men and Women who are prepared to do it" variety. Since reading various rants here I have run the article by several guys and girls I fly with, and all are of the same opinion that in fact it shows all those who serve in a good light.

Perhaps when you are in it, any implied criticism of your colleagues touches nerves, especially in a theatre of war, but I can assure all who may bother to read this that us civilians thought the article interesting, informative and OUR impression of all of you was made more positive as a result of it.

Aplogies to anyone who thinks a civilian should not infringe your specific forum, but my late Uncle Tony Moyes was a Wing Commander who flew Lancasters in WW2, so perhaps that family history may allow inclusion!

God Bless all who Fly and those who support them in these difficult times.

Oldflyboy.

[BootFlap]

Oldflyboy,

you Sir, are a gentleman. Thank you.

Others, take note! Methinks we are getting a little up our own backsides here. Let it die.

[Winco]

OldFlyBoy,

As one very mature aviator to another, I was pleased to read you balanced comments. I have refrained from further posting on here due to the somewhat imature and unwarranted comments by certain people, who know who they are.

As an 'unbiased' reader, I was pleased that you felt it showed the service in a good light, despite the fact that the comments have clearly upset some people, understandably in my opinion. Nevertheless, if the publics image hasn't been tarnished, then I would take this opportunity to ask the likes of SFFP, TSM, Clockwork Mouse and BB to agree to disagree on the matter, and put it to bed. You have all, and myself included, contributed to allowing the journolist to win here. I should think he is laughing like a drain!

SFFP, this is not meant to be a patronising statement, so please don't come back with any more rudeness to me about it. It is a humble bit of advice from someone who is a bit (probably quite a bit) older, wiser and more mature than you to call a halt to it. That goes for you all. Endex I feel.

I would join the oldflyboy is wishing all our forces, wherever they are serving at this very difficult of times, every success and all good wishes. Be assured that, irrespective of yoour rank, position or trade, you are all held in the highest esteem by the likes of oldflyboy and myself.

Yours Aye
The Winco

[The Swinging Monkey]

Winco,

I've decided to join you and the oldflyboy chappie. Thanks for putting us all straight, and apologies if I've caused any offence!
Kind regards to all, have a good weekend
TSM

[Flame Lily FX]

I quite liked Controversial Tim's post!

[RETDPI]

" 'nuff said" all round now, I suggest -me included.

[ATCO1979]

Knowing Caz since we started our A levels I am offended by some of the comments made in this forum. Most of the comments in the published article were made by her in a tongue in cheek way but as usual it has been taken out of context by the reporter. Some of you should be ashamed of yourselves speaking about her in such a way. I know her to be a thoughtful and very considerate person.
When not flying she teaches adults with learning difficulties and actively makes a difference to her local community. Not at all a bimbo RETDPI!

[rmac]

When I was at Cranwell, one of my female colleagues consistently faked injury to avoid a bit of walking in the rain, and on one occasion I came back to my basha to find that she had occupied it due to hers having fallen down, it is my regret that I was a naive young lad and turfed her out in to the rain so I could get some rest, rather than notice that a little cuddle may have made her (and maybe me) feel better :}

A few years later, I bumped in to her again, she was a successful and accomplished controller....

Everyone has more than one side, its not all black and white. Horses for courses and all that. Even Guy Gibson was referred to as "the boy emperor" by his squadron and eventually sent on a bonds tour of the US to avoid him sleeping with everyone else's wife.

Nobodys perfect.

[Flame Lily FX]

I agree with ATCO1979 and to those of you who came to her defence.

[hobie]

Knowing Caz since we started our A levels I am offended by some of the comments made in this forum. Most of the comments in the published article were made by her in a tongue in cheek way but as usual it has been taken out of context by the reporter. Some of you should be ashamed of yourselves speaking about her in such a way. I know her to be a thoughtful and very considerate person.
When not flying she teaches adults with learning difficulties and actively makes a difference to her local community.

As Miguel de Cervantes once said, "Truth will rise above falsehood as oil above water."

.......... :ok:

[Phil_R]

Sorry if my comment is out of place, but I can't but agree with the apologists. It's about the level of discourse you'd expect from someone of that seniority. I shoot and edit video for a living; believe me, if the journalist had been malicious, it could have come off a lot worse.

Completely non noteworthy; perhaps I'm missing something, but I don't see what all the fuss is about.

It's a bit like a cameraman making jokes about his sound recordist - "He just follows me around...". And we do that all the time.

Try to avoid it getting into print though.

Phil

[Chelskiboy]

The point is this. That on a "one to one level" as it were the remark might well be taken tongue in cheek.
However when aired to the public it gives the impression of devaluing everbody elses contribution. To someone not in those professions it may seem trivial but ask yourself how those ladies she shared a tent with may have felt to see such remarks in black and white.
Additionally never fit for purpose has made a great issue of knowing the person in question. Has he asked her whether she made those remarks however meant? also whether she was coerced into the interview? If she gave the interview freely then she has to accept some of the blame. If she were coerced into the interview (as can happen) then she has my sympathy.

[threepointonefour]

Even tho I said I wouldn't comment further, I have one question.

Having read the Times Article (http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/article1344341.ece), I can't help but think that it is too coherent to be uttered in an interview with a journalist.

It almost looks as though it was written by her as a funny piece and handed to the journalist in question, sort of a "Caz, I want you to write a short piece, entitled 'A Day in the Life ...' and hand it to Mr Newspaperman for publication".

I wonder what other people think. I just can't imagine (humourless as I am) responding to each of the journos Qs in such a fashion. I knits together too well to be just 'off the cuff'.

Does anyone know the truth of this? Interview or Written submission?

[Phil_R]

That's what sub editors do. It's what I do to video. Cut out all the ers and ums and reorder things until streams of consciousness make sense. I wouldn't be surprised if the phrase "less stringent" was a paraphrase of a long string of much less objectionable, much less coherent rambling.

No journalist will ever try to publish a literal word for word translation of someone's speech.

P

[stickmonkeytamer]

"Aledgedly", she wrote it rather than said it...

SMT

[Prop-Ed]

Please please please, let this thread die.

It has been flogged.

Lets put it behind us, learn from it and move on.:oh:

[stickmonkeytamer]

Surely she should be flogged...:E She has brought the RAF into disrepute.

SMT

[plans123]

Well, IF she did write it, that surely puts a different slant on it, as it was obviously a thought out and considered statement.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

The anology of a horse water and not drinking really does apply here. This thread has quite a lot of input from those who actually know Caz and we have input now from someone within the journo world who says

"That's what sub editors do. It's what I do to video. Cut out all the ers and ums and reorder things until streams of consciousness make sense. I wouldn't be surprised if the phrase "less stringent" was a paraphrase of a long string of much less objectionable, much less coherent rambling.

No journalist will ever try to publish a literal word for word translation of someone's speech."

And still some of you don't get it, there's no rocket science here folks :rolleyes:

[Mr C Hinecap]

Can I just try to sum up this thread?

The pilot in question may or may not be the next Mother Theresa, but with a brevet.
The pilot in question came across as a bit of a twit in the papers (this may or may not be down to the pilot in question).
The pilot in question may or may not learn from this, as many of those reading it may or may not do.

Have I missed anything?

[airborne_artist]

Have I missed anything?

Yes - she's out there doing her bit, for which I am very grateful. I expect her Mum and Dad are proud but anxious.

[South Bound]

AA

spot on. Nuff said everyone, let her get on with it now. Stay safe lass.

[Chelskiboy]

Quote:
Have I missed anything?
Yes - she's out there doing her bit, for which I am very grateful. I expect her Mum and Dad are proud but anxious.

Yes as are all the other personnel the article insulted.
NFFP no it is not rocket science nor is it rocket science for someone to realise that what they say can and will be interpreted by the editor. Also nor is it rocket science to realise that anything derogatory will sound ten times worse in print. Nor is it rocket science to work out that she either said or wrote something along that vein.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Horses water and drinking chels, nuff said:rolleyes:

[Chelskiboy]

NFFP In response Horses, posterior, nuff said.

[Ken Scott]

Good grief! Does the article really deserve or require 11 pages of comment & discussion in this forum? Have you all not created the mother of all mountains out of a molehill? It was published at the back of a Sunday supplement, not on the front page of a newspaper, it might well have passed barely noticed but for the furore that's been created here. Surely there are more pressing issues to discuss - the wars in Iraq & Afghanistan, under-funding & overstretch in the armed forces, the mothballing of half the RN, even the possible disbandment of the Red Arrows - no more, please!

[samuraimatt]

Even tho I said I wouldn't comment further, I have one question.

Having read the Times Article (http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/article1344341.ece), I can't help but think that it is too coherent to be uttered in an interview with a journalist.

It almost looks as though it was written by her as a funny piece and handed to the journalist in question, sort of a "Caz, I want you to write a short piece, entitled 'A Day in the Life ...' and hand it to Mr Newspaperman for publication".

I wonder what other people think. I just can't imagine (humourless as I am) responding to each of the journos Qs in such a fashion. I knits together too well to be just 'off the cuff'.

Does anyone know the truth of this? Interview or Written submission?Ariston you are back. Ariston and on and on....................

[stickmonkeytamer]

Ken Scott: Does the article really deserve or require 11 pages of comment & discussion in this forum?

Yes it does! The biggest problem with recruiting and retention at the moment is making people feel that they belong. Belittleing ground personnel is dispicable and unacceptable at any time. The current RAF recruitment video states that "You don't need to be a pilot to fly", but the reality is that we, the aviation fraternity, are a minority. We cannot operate without the support that we get from those who do not briefly slip the bonds of earth (unless you are on the maritime or AT fleet, in which it sometimes involves slipping them for 3 or 4 meals:E ). The ground based personnel can operate quite happily without us, but the reality is that we need them. To alienate them in any way, spoken or written, is unacceptable and can never be forgiven.

SMT

[samuraimatt]

SMT Has anybody told you just how boring you are?

[stickmonkeytamer]

Only Mrs SMT... but divorce is a very expensive thing!:E

[samuraimatt]

http://www.pprune.org/forums/%5Burl=http://www.freesmileys.org%5D%5Bimg%5Dhttp://www.freesmileys.org/emo/sleep022.gif%5B/img%5D%5B/url%5Dhttp://www.freesmileys.org/emo/sleep022.gif did you say something?

[justanotherday]

Oh SFFP (or is it NFFP?). Just by your tone and air of self-importance do I judge thee. I don't need to meet you to know of your type.:yuk:

I think it is normally called white noise...... she's a nice girl...she didn't mean it...she was out of town...the tux didn't come back from the cleaners... IT WASN'T HER FAULT.......:uhoh:

Grow up, shut up and get a life:D

[Ken Scott]

stickmonkettamer: the ground based personnel can operate quite happily without us...


Umm, yes....but....without the aeroplanes, & those that operate them, what would be the point?

[Fast but Safe]

Umm, yes....but....without the aeroplanes, & those that operate them, what would be the point?


Yes Ken, at this minute in time, your point is valid. But with more and more unmanned aircraft being designed, the groundcrew will have plenty of work on.......aircrew beware!! The 'playstaion generation' might just snap up those jobs! :)

FbS

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

After 50 years on the planet and over 30 of those serving my country I smile wryly at the likes of justanotherday but still wonder what possesses someone like him to join Prune, only 5 days ago at that, just to post in such a rude manner :=

As someone pretty much at the top of the baldrick cadre I have, I believe, developed a very good sense of right and wrong over the years, like to think I am a pretty good judge of character and have the very enviable trait of being able to shave every morning with a clear conscience!

Phil R, a confessed member of the media confirmed what I have asserted from the outset that whatever the words or phrases actually used in the interview they would not be the ones used contextually in the article. There are plenty of folk I work with, products of our class based military society who I would believe capable of such scurrilous comments and I would condemn them unreservedly both at work and in here for them, however I state once again that I do not believe that Caz is guilty as charged.

We are all entitled to our opinions, I believe mine is based on years of experience and a fair amount of subject knowledge all I would ask is that before anyone else posts derogatory comments on here they ponder what their opinion is actually based on and if it's simply a journalists scribblings maybe you ought to have a word with yourself :ok:

[Chelskiboy]

I have had a word with myself and have thus come to this conclusion.
1 In order for a reporter to "massage" a interview one assumes it has a basis in fact. Therefore I still maintain the sentiment if not the content was present.
2 My opinion too is based on knowledge and also interaction with the press.
3 What does shaving with a clear conscience have to do with it?
4 Once again I re-iterate that no-one has yet, to my knowledge, actually confirmed or denied that she made remarks by ascertaining the story from the author. Despite the many people who claim to know her.

Therefore I do feel justified in my condemnation of this story and the author. IF anyone can actually prove to me that she did not express that sentiment in some shape or form then I will duly admit my error. In the meantime I maintain my position.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

"My opinion too is based on knowledge and also interaction with the press."

Go on then please enlighten us?

[samuraimatt]

I tell you what Chelskiboy I think you must have been hit with the same BORINGhttp://www.freesmileys.org/emo/sleep019.gif stick as SMT. You two could BOREhttp://www.freesmileys.org/emo/sleep019.gif for your respective countries. Maybe you could both enter the Olympics in the individual Bore, I bet you would wi...............http://www.freesmileys.org/emo/sleep006.gif

[Chelskiboy]

no you first!!!

[threepointonefour]

And I thought the 'Samuraimatt in the hat' had gone away.

There are a number of posters here who refuse to believe that there must have been some truth in the words or sentiment for it to go to press. Anything else would be grounds for litigation by the interviewee and let's face it, this story was never going to be the journalist's big career breakthrough so wasn't worth even bending the truth.

[samuraimatt]

Hey its Ariston and on and on. SMT and chelskiboy are just boring you drone on about nothing in particular day in day out. Ariston and on and on.......

[1000CC'soffun]

Nothing more to talk about...................?

No...............

Dull..............

Can we all drop it PLEASE ?

We have all had our say, it won't change anything, what's done is done.

BOCS.......now then......who wants to continue, It's far more interesting............Honest it is, even BOCS is more fun than this thread now......:ugh:

Enough is Enough, leave Caz alone, leave STARS alone.......Leave BOCS in its BOX.:=

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Will you boys play nicely? One, probably, very well meaning, nice girl does an instant chavette impersonation to the wrong audience and you daft buggers just have to fall out!

I'm really surprised that this hasn't found its way to Jetblast by now.

Should anyone want to mount a defence/counter attack/whatever, I'm overseas until next Wednesday.

[threepointonefour]

Here's the sad fact; SamuraiT&@ has made about 14 posts since he joined us on about page 6. At no point has he contributed anything to the thread, other than to be abusive and rubbish other's opinions.

Well done.

[OBNO]

I cannot believe this is still going on ...and...on...and..on!

We're going round in circles - Let it go boys!