What's the opinion on the EK 777 fleet transfers? (The Angelo & Felipe thread)

[CAYNINE]

Have been unable to make a lot of sense out of the "opportunity" to volunteer for the 777.

Have any of you gentlemen come up with some definitive numbers on the Airbus FO list that indicates whether the option to go is worth while or a poorly thought out knee-jerk reaction to another crisis? :confused:

[145qrh]

It really is a difficult question to answer.....

If you move to the dark side, then your date of upgrade is pretty much fixed, by which I mean, transition then 6 months on line then upgrade, and best guess is approx 10-12 months after start of transition coarse...

I spoke to Airbus fleet management and was advised best to move,,,but and here's the whatsit in the woodpile....there projections are all based on no-one leaving the bus..ie skippers....and no fleet increase..well I think the 346's are nixed but who knows about a couple of 332's or 343's coming at short noitice....no guarantees, and purely guesswork..hey I could be EK manager:}

I would also bet on a few more guys leaving the top of the list, how many would it take for you to be in the picture....12,20, 50...I believe about 90 have left this year

IF you stay on the bus then there is a chance of change, if the dark side beckons....... you are stuck...

And with EK "training" being what it is, all it would take would be a 3 in your training then who knows:{ what they would do???

At the end of the day, you play your hand as you see your cards.....go or stay you will still be with EK:ugh: :ugh: :ugh: ...also not sure if they re-bond people. anyone know??


But as I said I was advised to move,as it looks best for command,,if that is true and it's a big if, it will put me on about 4 1/2 years to upgrade.....and yet they still tell people 3 years at interview := :=

[donpizmeov]

Also factor in that the first 332s are still to be handed back starting next year. This could/might change. This is a horrible go/nogo decision for the guys to make.
At the moment the only expansion for the bus fleet is when the 380 arrives. I am not too sure if many are betting on what that date will be.
There is however no extra bond for those who wish to cross dress. There is however a few early mornings in the training centre to look forward to.

Good luck with the decision making fellas. I hope it works out for you.

Don

[CAYNINE]

Hmmmm... the thing that bothers me the most is that you will have to wait for a course to become available, this is inherently flawed as if you sit in about the mid bunch of guys on the list just getting started will take around 8 months, plus the 6 month....then wait again for an upgrade course.... it keeps stretching on and on with no real direction as to what the hell the company is going to do in the meantime.

Then there is the accelerated guys..... they have now effectively put every pilot behind the 3 year guys into commands before them that meet the accelerated criteria... what they did tell us at the interview was that we were "eligible" at three years.... but wait now you have to do another year on the 777 to be "eligible" what a croc!

If a pilot has completed his 3 years and has passed his PPC's without drama why pray tell me isn't he given the opportunity to not "volunteer" as an FO on the boing, but be put on an upgrade course forthwith?????

:ugh:

[Fart Master]

Plus the fact that the FMA said that the transition courses prob wouldn't start untill mid 2007 at the earliest, so for the 3+ year airbus guys this could mean greater than 4 1/2 years to upgrade, good no:{

The letter was smoke and mirrors so that when the airbus guys saw it for what it was and then complained the wonderful management could say that they had done something....yeah right:D

[MR8]

Although it looks like a great effort from management to do something about the 'Airbus F/O upgrade crisis', this new policy stinks!!

Let's see how a typical almost 3 year F/O's situation will be:

Let's say Angelo joined in may 2004 (so that's 2.5 years in EK now to, make it easy). The people who were recruited then, had typical about 6000hrs, most of them had a command, or were very close to obtaining one. These people were told that they shouldn't worry about command in EK, three years would be it, give or take a few months..

Now, Angelo is 2,5 years in EK, has aquired around 7500TT. He is well aware of EK procedures and the route network. Unfortunately, he's an airbus F/O, and because of some fcuk ups in Toulouse and Berlin, the A380 is delayed, and so will Angelo's command course.

EK management, in an effort to calm down the Airbus F/O's, has found a solution. Transition upgrades! Now, Angelo might start a transition course in the second quarter of 2007, so he will be here for more than 3 years already. After the course, Angelo needs to fly 6 months on the B777 before he can start his upgrade. By the time Angelo can do his upgrade, he has +8000TT, and will be in the company for about 4 years (and that is all best case scenarios, e.g. starting in the first available transition course..). Of course, his upgrade will be the standard EK upgrade, where the LOFT exercises are quite difficult and Angelo wouldn't be the first one to fail on this..

In the mean time, Angelo's twin brother, Felipe just stayed at Air Mickey, flying low cost B737's over Italy. They started their career together, and Felipe has about 8500TT as well, been a Captain with Air Mickey for the last three years, and Angelo told him the pizza in Dubai isn't that bad (Round Table), so Felipe wants to join EK. He does his little recruitment thing and is in. Although Felipe never flew a wide body, never left the European skies, thinks that ETOPS is a strange disease and Dhaka the capital of some African country, EK offers him a DEC course on the B777. Oh yeah... Felipe is already a Captain, so he doesn't need to do these anoying LOFT's, just one exercise where we fly into Sanaa for your qualification, and let's call that a LOFT to keep everybody happy...

And then some people tell Angelo NOT to be pissed off??? !@#$!@%^#%

Look, the only solution is to allow upgrades as per seniority!! If the F/O with three years wants to have a transition upgrade, the company can even bond him for another three years if they like.

Then the other cr@p: let's say that this whole thing is a veto from higher up and the guys in Flight Ops are not to blame.. Why only start in about 6 months from now?? Start with the F/O transition straight away and every new F/O that joins can go on the airbus, there's plenty of training resources available on the Airbus sector after the new A380 delay. It would at least save another 6 months for the guys, plus, EK would have enough F/O's to crew the B777's left seats without DEC's in a few months.
So even though this new policy is far from perfect, an IMMEDIATE incorporation would be necessary to keep it acceptable.

Last thing, forget about the Accelerated Guys overtaking their colleagues, it's almost as bad as DEC's...

MR8

[Yossarian]

So then, surely the Airbus FO's should be encouraging current Airbus skippers to go to the 777 (cash incentive perhaps?). Wouldn't that slow down things somewhat on the Boeing while opening up some spots in the left hand seat for the Airbus FOs who are ready for upgrade?

What sort of ratio are EK looking at? How many skipper transitions versus FO? When are these transition courses supposed to start?

[GoreTex]

Angelo should have listened to the people who wrote here about EK and not come, now poor Angelo has to wait.

[ekpilot]

To fill the 100 captain's positions on the B777 the numbers will look something like this:
Airbus Captains: 20+
Accelerated Airbus FOs: 40+
Boeing FOs: 20+
Airbus FOs Yeah, that's right - sweet nothing:mad:
So total upgrade slots for non-accelerated FOs up until April 2008 will be less than 50.

[Fart Master]

Yossarian, good point, apparently there are plenty of Airbus skippers who want to go over, at least 30-40 just to start with, prob more with time............. but surprise, surprise the company said they are prob only going to move 10, maybe 20.

They are not interested in whatever solutions are put forward, UNLESS it is the cheapest one, thats the bottom line with anything EK does:ugh: :D

[ShockWave]

If they wanted to fix the problem they could do it by next month at the latest.
Simply count the number of AB guys who want to move then pick the same number of F/Os plus a couple more (just in case)and put them on an immediate upgrade course. If you have to send some transition guys to egypt or Manchester then just do it.
Once the F/Os start their line training send the Captains off to the boeing for their transition, anywhere! it does not have to be Dubai.
Both fleets crewing satisfied with a minnimum of fuss and effort.

At first glance someone in accounting is going to complain about the additional expense of outside simulators but management quickly point out the benifits to crew moral and less wastage due to less resignations and the positive benifits to recruitement of new crews after hearing about the fantastic and logical way the EK system works. And upper management applaud and aprove the quick fix suggested by me and promise an extra bonus for makeing things better for all. I feel so good for sticking it out so long and never giving up on them!
Isn't life wonderful......

[AirbusDaddy]

Very interesting analysis there by MR8.

In the mean time, Angelo's twin brother, Felipe just stayed at Air Mickey, flying low cost B737's over Italy

Finally we have an admission that Angelo came from Air Mickey.


Although Felipe never flew a wide body, never left the European skies, thinks that ETOPS is a strange disease and Dhaka the capital of some African country, EK offers him a DEC course on the B777.

You make assumptions that every DEC is from the same background you came from (sorry I mean Angelo :) ). Well that just shows how well informed you are, believe it or not quite a few DEC's were longhaul widebody skippers since the days you were in diapers. But what the heck you have to vent your frustration somewhere so go ahead. The reality is that no one promised you command after 3 years what they did say is that you will be eligible for command after a minimum of 3 years.

If you want to work for the fastest growing airline then you must take the good with the bad boys. You simply cannot have the cake and eat it too.

[616200]

[QUOTE=AirbusDaddy;2937045]Very interesting analysis there by MR8.



Finally we have an admission that Angelo came from Air Mickey.



Here's another story..Angelo and Felipe went to attend the selection process for a major Flag Airline but only Angelo made it thru.
Felipe was then hired by Air Mickey without any interview because he had big connections there and became captain after 2 years.
Then guess what? Air Mickey bought 2 5th hand 767 that Felipe is now flying.
Guess he's more than qualified now to apply as DEC right? :yuk:

[GoreTex]

I guess it's the owners right to decide if he wants felipe to fly in the left hand seat even he is not as good as the guy in the right hand seat, as long a TRE thinks he is good enough to do the job.

[theidler]

You make assumptions that every DEC is from the same background you came from (sorry I mean Angelo :) ). Well that just shows how well informed you are, believe it or not quite a few DEC's were longhaul widebody skippers since the days you were in diapers.

Could AirbusDaddy be a DEC?

Surely not.


But what the heck he has to vent his frustration somewhere.

[mckaj]

Here is my reaction to the new transition policy:

Its a load of camel pooh.

6 months in the right seat is a fcuking insult.

I have decided to stay on the bus and then sometime next year leave the company. I am unable to deal with this type of management.

So long

[MR8]

The whole Angelo-Felipe thing is just to show how crooked the whole career progress is in Emirates. When I joined, they just started the DEC thing to crew the A343. Since I was very concerned about that, I specifically asked the recruitment team (including the pilots) about DEC's. They all told me that it was a one off thing because of the deal they got on the A343's, and they were unable to crew them from the inside.

Again, I am not p1ss3d of at the DEC's, I am just raging about the way EK management does not follow a set of rules that was layed out when we signed the contract. I'm not a hypocrite, and a know that the DEC's that joined just took an opportunity, and if person X doesn't take it, there will be a person Y who does. So no bad feelings guys, I would probably do the same thing.

There's two things about DEC's that I cannot stand though: first of all, the opportunity should never have been there for these good people, and that's something I blame EK management. Secondly, I'm absolutely gutted by the AirbusDaddy's, Tartans and Brians in the company (probably just one guy though..), who are still trying to convince people that they are necessary. (EK needs our experience - EK can't grow without us - we were longhaul widebody skippers since the days you were in diapers - ...)

Shockwave, I agree with you, and would make it even better.. For the first few months, new joiners on the Airbus. Because of the delays in A380 training, there must be open resources to get that going. In the meantime, use the slots that were planned for DEC and new joiners B777 for the transition (this can start as early as next week), pair up an Airbus Capt. with an Airbus F/O to make up a crew for the transition. This way, no DEC's needed, no accelerated guys needed, all done as per seniority.

Goretex, it is the owners right.. But it shows of very poor management if the owner changes the rules of the game every two months.

AirbusDaddy, I'm not even going there. I know my background, that's fine for me...

MR8

[Mistah Kurtz]

Couple of excellent, succinct and well argued posts MR8. Very difficult not to get annoyed by patronising and condescending posts like AirbusDaddys.

The whole transition/upgrade policy is inconsistent, devisive and deeply flawed. Flight Ops management know this internally but still trying to get the message through to the higher levels of management.

[atiuta]

Great post MR8.

[Fart Master]

Mistah Kurtz,

"Flight Ops management know this internally but still trying to get the message through to the higher levels of management."

On the contrary TCAS and Mr Ed are VERY firmly on the management side, they couldn't care less about doing the right thing, to put it politely, they don't give a s**t, as long as they keep the manager above them happy the rest of us can go to you know where:ugh:

WRT what you said about MR8's post..... spot on

[GoreTex]

MR8,
I can only repeat myself and say that is was posted here that EK is s**t and change contracts whenever they want, there were so many warnings on this website, but I guess listening is not one your strong sides.

[MR8]

GoreTex,

This is a rumour website. Wouldn't it be completely stupid to make a career choice by what's written here?
It's not that because I was warned before, that I can't fight for what's right. I like my lifestyle in DXB, it's very easy going for me. I don't like the company very much, but it's no good just to stay on the side and moan about it. I try to get opinions from colleagues, assess where the problems with this company are, and try to address them. When was the last time you wrote a letter to Ed or TCAS about things that bother you?
I appreciate that the result of my writing to management will be next to nothing, but at least it gives me peace at heart for trying. And maybe if more people would raise their voice, things would be done... maybe....

MR8

[turtleneck]

might not be valued much, but anyway:
i very much appreciate your posts, mr8, and hold them up.
ttn

[Saltaire]

The lack of a direct command transition on the 777 is especially painful in light of the fact that it was done once before and after the quoted gulf air incidence, of which relevance fails to compute. Two locals getting overwhelmed in a 320 over six years ago......hello? Not knowing sir....:ugh:

Can't seem to understand the logic in any of the forementioned policy, other than of course, the cheapest way possible and with complete disregard for previous policy and a fair and reasonable process.

Take all the eligible FO's and upgrade in seniority with continued FO recruitment on both fleets, like every other airline in the modern world. Simple? Guess not...

[Mistah Kurtz]

Normal Transition Upgrades ie. without some pathetic, utterly irrelevant 6 months as F/O will have to happen. In my earlier post I was saying that some of Flight Ops management see this, it's a case of waiting until the inevitability of this dawns on higher "management"

[GoreTex]

MR8,
wrote enough letters to the TCAS and Ed, got in trouble for that had to see Abbas the other day for some brainwashing, with the effect that I decided to leave this circus.

Anyway a bit of research would have not hurt before joining EK, you obviously didn't enough especially after you were warned, EK will not get better as some of you still hope, just wait till they raise the 900 hr limit and the overtime threshold.

[Ramboflyer 1]

Well im going for the 777 even with the 6 months. At least its a certain command in 9 months , not 12 as you would also waste 3 months doing a seat swap as well staying on the A330.
The other thing that worries me is when the 380 comes it will happen quick and maybe unexpected so Decs will come to fill the 330 gaps and F/Os may not get released on schedule .
There is also a chance of the 6 month rule being dropped so im gonna take the risk , I think it is lower risk than staying on the Bus.
Heard many 777 Capts are looking at leaving in 07-08 so the 6 month rule may get squashed anyway.

[FOreverFO]

At least its a certain command in 9 months ?

Are you an optimist or just naive? While you will do your (minimum) 6 months RHS, there will be plenty of 777 FO and accelerated guys.
Then guess what, they will change the rules again...

it will happen quick and maybe unexpected so Decs will come to fill the 330 gaps and F/Os may not get released on schedule.

Quick and unexpected? That's the common excuse, but is it acceptable for normal people? We must be getting used to this disgusting policy.

Finally, I don't feel less capable than my collegue who has some LHS time.

I am getting so tired of this ...:bored: Tired of this? On your first post? :confused: 4HP :ugh:

[atiuta]

ahem....

Plenty of B777 F/O's? Why do you think they are moving A330 F/O's?

...and that would be plenty (hypothetically) of F/O's and accelerated F/O's that were junior to the A330 F/O....

It's a crystal ball so who knows, have to say though that your arguements are a little flawed.

[Saltaire]

Consider once you even start the 777 course the clock doesn't start until your FLC, at least a few months after you start, then 6 months then a full command course. Count on a year after you start your course....however, the airbus music could stop for awhile and thier could be more delays with the 380. Almost like separate companies between fleets. Sad really...

[Ramboflyer 1]

With 777 deliveries till 2012 its a sure bet for a command in a year , im happy to try prove it.
I dont agree with it but it is the best option in my opinion.

[MR8]

As far as I understood, by volunteering, you just show INTEREST in a transition course. Nothing's in stone, so you can withdraw from this idea up to about 3 months before your course starts (Ed's FAQ).
The question will be at the time you HAVE to decide: "Will I make Capt on the airbus in the next 12 months?".
YES - Forget about the hassle of transition and 6 months right, and the upgrade on a fleet where you don't know any of the trainers etc etc...
NO - Start seriously considering the offer, as it will most probably advance your time to Command.

Even if you have a YES/NO/NOT SURE answer to the question, if you take the Boeing option, you will never waste more then a few months in worst case scenario. If you stay on the Airbus, who knows what happens next...

So in my opinion, I think it's good to volunteer, and take a decision once the course dates come closer.

This does, however, also have a sour taste to it. Although it seems better to volunteer for a transition, it might also send out a signal that we actually agree with the plan. This is absolutely not the case for me. Actually, by volunteering, it feels like bending over again and take the sh@fting once more, but this time actually asking for it...

What to do???

MR8

[chinawladi]

Spot on MR8. That's why the whole thing stinks. Evryone above you has the same option to pull out if the situation on the bus changes. All your calculations and considerations will be a jab in the air. It sounds great not having to commit, especially at EK, but this leaves the whole exercise to be as accurate as the RTA's road planning........
I just let it flow and it will still turn out the other way.
China