EK - Not allowed to practice NPA's.. now the procedure trainer off limits!!

[CAYNINE]

This little gem just on the email to EK pilots,

"· Anyone wishing to use the FMST 3D Trainer must book the device – Contact Mike Thirlwall, Flight Training Planning Superintendent on 04 703 7201

· Must be supervised by an instructor or simulator engineer (Like that is going to happen!!!)

· All sessions must be logged.



AdHoc use of the device can no longer be supported by training and will not be permitted. " (ie don't ask to use it)


Like, why try and maintain a standard? We're going some bad fast.

[ShockWave]

Actually, you can practice NPA GPS approaches because they are straight in Approaches and you should end up landing on the correct runway.
NDBs and VORs are off limits though, because of the possibillity of an offset.....

[410]

Actually, you can practice NPA GPS approachesThat's not the way I read AS's letter. My understanding was "The highest level of automation available MUST be used." As always, I stand ready to be corrected.

[CAYNINE]

That was the way I read it too, nothing specific about GPS/RNAV approaches. The point being though that we are expected to perform these approaches everytime we go to sim.

Some choose to go and make use of a facility at the training center that we were encouraged to use when we first joined and now that has been restricted severely as well.

:ugh:

[ShockWave]

OK, it may be just a training directive, but the interpretation is that Trainers can do gps apps. Can't immagine why it would be restricted to just training flights. Managed GPS vs ILS- not much difference as far as automation goes.

[CAYNINE]

I just find the whole situation extremely unpalatable to keep restricting us from conducting approaches that are designed and published to be used at destinations and are selectable from the data base of the FMS, why not just remove them from the box and send us to places that only have an ILS available? This is in reality what they are doing by applying this policy.

[EGGW]

I tell ya Mutt its a pain in the ass the Boing NPA's, piece a cake in the Bus by comparison. This not being able to carry out NPA's is gonna end in tears, the hand dance that we do on the Boing needs recent practice.
The way i read it, even trainers cannot carry out a GPS if an ILS is available. Crass stupidity.

EGGW:mad:

[Payscale]

VPFT has clarified that. GPS OK...

[desert_knight]

This directive is much more to do with ensuring Engineering know when the device is required and can ensure it is presented in a servicable state, ready for use.
You wouldn't expect to just turn up and take an aircraft on an ad hoc flight would you??
It is also important to log its useage so that operating/maintaining the device can be justified and the data may also be used in any future business case for an extra or updated device.
I think it has very little to do with trying to stop people maintaining flying standards.

[Andu]

the hand dance that we do on the Boing needs recent practice. I would have to agree with that.

I'd also have to agree with 410's interpretation of the directive - you have to use the highest automation available. Therefore GPS is a no-no if ILS is available.

Joe Linedriver decides he has to do his monthly practice NPA and to save unnecessary radio chatter with ATC, elects to do a LLZR rather than a VOR, (the LLZR following the same track as the ILS while many VORs adopt a completely different track). Unfortunately, many LLZR approaches have a slightly steeper profile than an ILS, so Joe gets a G/S warning because he's a little too high on the approach (remember, the G/S on the ILS is still transmitting). He submits the mandatory ASR after getting the G/S warning and someone - not, I hasten to add, from Flight Safety Department - sees all the safety reports coming in from practice NPAs and bans them.

My question is a simple one: even if you totally disregard the explanation for the 'too many' excursions on practice NPAs as described above, surely the perfect time to have 'incidents' is during PRACTICE NPAs in cear blue skies, rather than when some poor sod is doing one for real in IMC, possibly with another problem - for the first time since the last time he practised ONE APPROACH in the Sim, when he was supposed to get it right or fail the *** exercise?

[Vorsicht]

One of the greatest learning points doing LLZ was to see first hand the real effect of density altitude on your profile. As it happens, this is what causes the G/S warnings as well. As someone said previously, better to see this in VMC practice than be surprised by the real thing

Too bad the grupenfuhrer and co. dont agree.

[Ghostflyer]

Andu,

I'd also have to agree with 410's interpretation of the directive - you have to use the highest automation available. Therefore GPS is a no-no if ILS is available.


Extending that logic, does that mean there will be no manual landings unless out of limits for an autoland?

Following other people's logic about various FCIs, you could argue that a GPS approach actually uses more automation than an ILS. The FMS DB is used in accordance with the GPS rather than just the ILS on the ground. But that is a sad debate to get into.

On the bus there is no difference in automation between an ILS and a GPS approach apart from the fact that 2 autopilots are selected which is only actually relevant to a Cat II or Cat III approach. You press one button and you are off. I think that one of the more recent edicts (about MAPWP position) lead to lots of selected approaches being flown that were then screwed up. I know I flew selected approaches, when managed were available, through ignorance of the fine print.

The current directive about not practicing NPA approaches is clearly stupid from the safety risk management point of view. You obviously want to practice approaches that may be tricky in clear weather when you can look out of the window, not on a dark night, going into Tabriz with an emergency.

However at EK we have 3 types of pilots, those that are afraid of their own shadows, those that are demi-gods and the average mates. We have guys that will screw the approach up and then still try and get it in at all costs, the demi-gods, which the FCI was designed to rein in. On the other side we have other guys that shouldn't ever fly because they put the "due to an unforseen traffic accident in Satwa we were nearly unstable but were fine by 4,000'" ASRs in.

For the rest of us, is it really such a hardship to walk down the corridor and see Mike to make certain someone else hasn't booked the F3D and then use it?

Ghost

[mini cooper]

For the rest of us, is it really such a hardship to walk down the corridor and see Mike to make certain someone else hasn't booked the F3D and then use it?

Where has all the common sense gone boys? Which rocket scientist had a bright idea and said that we are suddenly not allowed to practice something that we have been doing for years? I doubt it was one person maybe a couple of rocket scientists got together to make the decision!!!! Somebody needs to come out and state the obvious (unlikely) ie if you want to practice an NPA ie NDB / VOR do it on a sunny day with good vis so that if you stuff it up you can go visual. That way when you are in the middle of nowhere on a grotty night and you have to do one for real you will have at least practiced one!!!! This company is just one knee jerk reaction after another - nothing like stable management to inspire confidence.
GHOSTFLYER: Do live at the training college? You say you just walk down the corridor to book the F3D. Personally speaking if you think that I am going to drive down Sheik Zayed risking my life and car on a day off to walk down a corridor to book a training session so I can sit in an FMS trainer you must be joking.
CAN WE HAVE SOME COMMON SENSE IN EK PLEASE

[GoreTex]

Spot on cooper, what kind of idiot would go on a off day to the college and use the trainer, who is afraid of doing NPA's, man are you all girls in EK?

[Ghostflyer]

Mini,
Personally speaking if you think that I am going to drive down Sheik Zayed risking my life and car on a day off to walk down a corridor to book a training session so I can sit in an FMS trainer you must be joking.
CAN WE HAVE SOME COMMON SENSE IN EK PLEASE

The guys that use the F3D do live in the training college. Its a Part Task Trainer with limited utility beyong the initial transition course. I know of no one that pops in to use it after they have graduated and if they did I would actually find it somewhat scary; how hard is it?

But if they do want to use it and are not in the college an E-mail shouldn't be too tough.

Haven't we larger fish to fry like cumpulsory overtime, illegal rostering, fatigue etc etc. The Docs know we have a fatigue problem but the managers will tell them it isn't real because so few people report it. There are a couple of flights that are flown under variations that are not correct, is anything done, no! Why? Guys just bitch about it on PPrune.

I think that sometimes we are our own worst enemies by focusing on the trivia and ignoring the important stuff. Ostrich, heads and sand spring to mind.:zzz:

[Farty Flaps]

The Data from a UK Boeing operator indicated that NPAs were causing the less stable of the approaches. This was addressed in two ways. An opc profile that covered NPA as a loft amongst other scenarios. Also training was adjusted to reinforce the practice of setting up (level and appropiately configured segments until the final descent fix) and flying the npa as if the wx was at minima (on ck days) with the pf head down until a pre agreed point. The transition to visual was also emphasied. This has gone along way to improve things. The tendency was for the pf to be in a kind of no mans land between viz and imc proceedures anticipating the breakout or effectively flying a visual thru the mcp, eg using the papis to adjust the v/s or vice versa, or not transitioning positvely to the visual segment either during practice or for real. The addressing of the situation is making huge improvements in Data.

They didnt need to issue a memo and the pilots didnt take it personally.

[mini cooper]

OK enough of the NPA thing!! I think one of the larger problems is that self confidence is something that EK doesn't encourage. If you are confident in your own ability, your own actions and your own ability at work then life looks a lot better. It all goes together, we all know and can see those people who put in ASRs for little or no reason to cover there own backs when really it isn't required, the people who are afraid to put on extra fuel when it really would be sensible just in case they get a call from the fleet office, the people who do not reduce fuel if ZFW drops because they aren't confident enough even though it is cavok, they always get the level required and there are never any delays at the destination!!! Those are the people that Ek management like because they are unlikely to stand up for themselves and hence are easily persuaded to fly when fatigued and not report it, they will ring up for work on days off just to brown nose and are in general pathetic.
The moment we get away from the EK managment DIVIDE and CONQUER technique then I for one will be a lot happier. When they begin to treat us like adults rather than talking down to us, when they support rather than punish then we may begin to act as a team. They then may have more confidence in us and then they may say 'hey guys practice NPAs in good vmc, because its safer' then we might have more respect for them and they for us rather than just stopping all practice NPAs...........................
IT IS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE
(unless of course you are EK Flt ops managment and I say 'management' very losely - they couldn't organise a p*ss up in a brewery - because NOBODY WOULD WANT TO GO AND HAVE A BEER WITH THEM)

Farty Flaps: 'nobody took it personally - do you really think after all your good SOP / training talk that it was sensible for EK to say no practice NPAs but by the way chaps if you have to do an NPA for real in the dark in Northern Pakistan with high ground around and in grotty weather its all right!!!!! All you 'trainers' ought to get your heads out of the books, get on the line a bit more and see what everyone has to do before doing the usual 'it says here in the FOM' answer.
ITS CALLED BIG PICTURE!!!

[Farty Flaps]

Mini,
Iam about to try and convey exasperation not patronise you so bear with me.
For gods sake calm down. EK are not alone in unstable npas due to lack of practice. I was demonstrating how another operator dealt with it. Another manifestation of the ek flat earth menality.Defensive isolationist.
As with all the many issues re ek on these boards little sympathy will be forth coming from your professional fellow pilots if the constant reaction is to assume its a vendetta by the company and all outsiders are knobs. The assumption that only ek have these issues, from DEC to NPA, ad nauseum is counterproductive. They dont, and to shout down outside opinion is to become the management you despise. Its part of an even BIGGER picture

I agree with your views on confidence and that it would appear that banning them (practice npa) is exactly the opposite to what is required.

However It does come across that people feel its was done just to annoy them. ie taking it personnally. Incompetant management is also a common industry theme and is omnipotent.
If you continue to practice npas at will why get so ....ed off. Follow your own philosophy of confidence.No point in being in the gulf if your so ....ed off.

When the hassle exceeds the fun its time to move on. Which is why Im an ex expat about to become one again.

[helen-damnation]

I occasionally used the trainer before a PPC if I hadn't been there/done that recently.
Now I'm supposed to get permission and be monitored :O

I think not :uhoh:

Of course, I usually went in after the 2 days of groundschool before the PPC:rolleyes:
Let's not go there.....:ugh:

[GoreTex]

Helen,
as I said lots of girls in EK

[ShockWave]

The info I have states that RNAV/GPS apps were not included in the restrictions which were brought in to help reduce the risk of landing on something that should not be landed on. Namely, offset NPA apps have more risks involved in them than straight in RNAV apps. So...If you need to practice NPA proceedures (as most of us do)then RNAV/GPS is the way to go because it will be identical to the ILS usually, and you can now do it decellerated so atc won't mind.

Quote:

Reference is made to FCI No. 2006-067 dated 16th August 2006, regarding Practice Non-Precision Approaches.
All Training Captains to note that GPS Approaches were not included in the above referred FCI and are therefore authorized to be conducted during line training. This will satisfy NPA training requirements during line training.
End Quote.

And MC..... As usual I don't think anybody in the training department proper was even consulted about this FCI so it's a bit unfair to blame them. As for not knowing what goes on, out in the real world on the line..get real! why do you think trainers are happy to spend time in the Sim? ....been there, done that too many times, thanks very much!

[picu]

why do you think trainers are happy to spend time in the Sim?
you've got to be kidding, right? :*

[pintofstella]

Not being funny but.... bunch of idiots!!!!!!!!! Just because we dont practise them does that mean we cant do them ... no! go to jfk and get 3 rway changes below 8000ft all with non precision app:s. Its part of our job we should not need to practise them them unless U are unable to do them. Real world gents

[ruserious]

pintofstella, yes and no. Yes you should be able to do them, but they do require real world familiarity on a semi-regular basis to maintain the skill. The problem is for those that have never gained a decent level of familiarity with them, whether that is cadets or new joiners who have only flown other types.
Its no that they are difficult, but with all flying skills you don not want pilots putting in 100% cognitive effort into something that is meant to be easy or routine.

[Wiley]

pintofstella, I bow to your superior skill and professionalism.

I'm afraid that I'm one of those lesser mortals who'd prefer to have "played the FMA piano" once or twice in less stressful circumstances than three runway changes below 8000' at JFK. I'm also happy to concede that I think I'd have a better chance of getting the FMA concerto right on all threee runway changes into JFK if I'd practised the procedure more often than ONCE every six months doing my PPC.

[ShockWave]

Picu... perhaps "happy" was not a good choice of words, but it sure beats a night flight to peshawar and that stupid blooody NPA app in crappy weather and having to orbit while you are doing it to allow the millitary to land in front of you. I love a challenge but not that much!