FI Jobs In E/SE Asia...?

[Kai Tak 13]

In 3 months I will have the following:
-Approx. 250 hours flight time [50 multi-engine]
-FAA Ratings: CPL IR ME/SE, CFI, MEI, CFII

I'll be looking for a FI job that will hire me as a beginner. My interest though is flying/living overseas particularly in this region. I read the post on FI jobs at a few Malaysia schools, are there any others you know? If not, do you know some good websites that will point me in the right direction?

Thanks so much! :) :) :)

[haree]

Few flight schools in india are looking for Expats but they require 1000 Hrs+ instructional experience.

Heard that Chinese flight school hire people with 200-250 hrs instruction hrs.

Maybe members from that region would have better tales

Haree

[airbus2boeing]

Just wondering; how can you have an MEI rating if you only have 250 hours? I think you need 250 hours minimum just to get a commercial certificate.

[ASIAN FROG]

You have a chance in China. But with FAA licences forget about most of the other countries.

[PicMas]

PanAm Beijing might be worth a try.
a2b:
By taking a 141 course...
Is my guess

[bafanguy]

Kai,

oops...did it again...

[Kai Tak 13]

Just wondering; how can you have an MEI rating if you only have 250 hours? I think you need 250 hours minimum just to get a commercial certificate.
The 250hrs are for Part 61 schools, I'm part 141. :)

[Kai Tak 13]

You have a chance in China. But with FAA licences forget about most of the other countries.
Is there a particular reason for this? Air travel in this corner of the world is exploding, one would think there would be a whole bunch of different flight schools desperate for instructors. :ugh:

Is there something about FAA licenses that other countries don't like?

[Kai Tak 13]

PanAm Beijing might be worth a try.
a2b:
By taking a 141 course...
Is my guess
I actually know a person who was at PanAm Beijing for a few months. He left for two main reasons, one, that he was only getting around 20 to 30 hours a month in the planes, and two, the instructors there have gained a bad reputation in town so they're pretty isolated.

Thanks for the idea though! :)

[ASIAN FROG]

to Kai Tak 13
The FAA licences are low level licences (Theoretical knowledge)compared to Hong Kong, Singaporean, Malaysian, JAR..... that's the reason why several Authorities are not accepting those licences.
Sorry but it is like that...

I do not want to hurt you, there are already numerous threads on this topic. If you compare a JAR licence and a FAA one, the JAR Ground Studies require around 1000 hours of Ground School (at least three times more than a FAA one) and the pass rate at the first attempt is around 80%, the CPL flight tests are similar, but the JAR IR is generally recognised as tougher. And in plus, you have to get the MCC. Malaysia, Hong Kong, ... are related to the former UK system, they are midway between JAR and FAA. But for example, Malaysian DCA is aiming to join the JAR system.
As a principle, a Flight Instructor must have -at least- the same knowledge than his students.
In USA, the major Airlines require a strong University background in plus of the FAA licences and/or a deep experience in General or Regional Aviation ....which is demonstrating that the FAA licence by itself is not sufficient to fly in a Major US.....
Canada, (previously its licensing system was parallel to the FAA one) is moving toward the JAR one. You can read the well documented "2001- Human Resource Study of Commercial Pilots in Canada". Analysis in depth and reasons why (Mainly complaints of Airlines due to insuficient knowlege) the Canadian authority has decided to modify its licensing system. This document is available on Internet

[Kai Tak 13]

Hmmm.......

[Mag]

to Kai Tak 13
But for example, Malaysian DCA is aiming to join the JAR system.


I do hope that this is not the case.

With the incredibly LOW STANDARDS in Malaysia and slack enforcement/policing by DCA, I think that they would struggle to get JAA approval. At least I hope so!!:E

As for FAA being "low level licences", well whilst SOME are, you need to take a look at SOME of the people being issued with Malaysian CPL/IR licences....then you would know what a "low level licence" is!:ok:

[ASIAN FROG]

Mag
I confirm "aiming" and not ""getting"". However, look around: Malaysia is not the worst situation. What about Chinese license ... Go to Panam Website

[zob]

i just feel uncomfortable reading about the malaysian license being above the FAA one...
Sometimes people getting their training done under FAA part 61 (flying club) don't attain the standards compared to part 141 organizations (flight school), although it is not always the case... but in no way these standards are lower than the malaysian standards.
It is true the JAR training is well above most others when it comes to ground knowledge as well as IR... but the malaysian license is nowhere close to compete with any of the one mentionned... I am not familiar with all the training organizations throughout Malaysia but looking at the one i know, i have never seen people coming out of a flight school, an IR-ME in hand, with skills and knowledge so low (if any at all)... :yuk:
It is just pathetic and an insult to all other license holders... and they r the guys who will be flying people around.. "now ANYONE can fly" :}

[zakka]

Asian Frog, you got it all wrong. There are NO licenses superior to FAA and JAA. Malaysia won't have a chance joining JAA - NEVER.
Also from my experience the Chinese license is superior to the Malaysian License (At least the students in China put in a bit of work compared to the lazy Malaysians)
Zob is absolutely right in the qoute "Now everybody can fly":uhoh:

[ASIAN FROG]

I have never stated that the Malaysian licences were over other ones. On contrary I have stated "Midway".
I am an experienced JAR instructor and I have spent 4 years in Malaysia. You must not consider only the Flying part. But the overall result of Ground + Flight (Including synthetic) studies and the entry level in Airlines.
1) Ground Studies:
the Malaysian licence is half local (technical), half based on the old british CAP 509 syllabus ( CA6 + CA 2). The total of Ground school required is around 850 hours. Yes, the technical question bank is very limited and ICAO has pinpointed the non updating by DCA and yes, the Navigation part of the Question bank (CA6 from UK-CAA International) is also well known from students because of a very slow renewal and some students are working only the questions. But at the end this level is far better than the FAA one.(less than 200 hours of Ground Studies)
2) Flying Side
It depends on the schools:
-MFA is based on an obvious very old concept, and certainly not in line with a modern vision of training. There is an old link trainer than you cannot compared with a modern FNPT so the synthetic flying is nearly nil. But, overall, it is structured and not too much messy.
- HMA Ground School is in order, Flying School is a mess but a huge work has been done in the simulator in order to compensate the Flying School deficiencies: batch 1 and 2 are "standard" at the output, MAS is happy by the result -Thanks to the FNPT II -. However the simulator department has its limits. From my personal information network, DCA has been obliged to intervene for rectifying the situation as it appears than the Flying School is really very far from normal standards.
-Asian pacific Flight Training is just starting the operations. We have to give them some credits as it is just a starting business.
So you cannot say Malaysian system is under the FAA system (less than 200 hours of Ground School). The Flying School situation is not acceptable by modern standards for the two main schools: I agree but apparently some corrections are under way. You cannot base your opinion only on the Flying school on one FTO.
I have trained several batches of MAS and AA cadets and they were not lazzy. Yes, some private students should not be in the "pipe line" as they have not the required entry level and their attitude is not acceptable during the training, but the vast majority of Airlines Cadets is OK.

[Mag]

Asianfrog
I also am an experienced JAA flight Instructor with many hours and I too have spent time in Malaysia. I can tell you that I have seen some good results here but, generally,the standard of the END PRODUCT in Malaysia is very poor.
Yes 'ANYONE CAN FLY', thats a fact now as long as you have the money or are 'well conected'. I have seen students' IRT broken down and flown in small segments so that they can get through!!! How wrong is this?
WHY ARE THER SUCH INCREDIBLE DIFFERENCES IN FLIGHT TRAINING STANDARDS THROUGHOUT THE WORLD?
I have to say that I am disgusted with ICAO (or whoever is responsible for the standards of international flight training) for not taking action to rectify the situation...and I have seen ICAO in Malaysia doing an "Audit".


THESE PEOPLE ARE GOING TO BE FLYING YOUR FRIENDS AND FAMILY AROUND THE SKIES!

[ASIAN FROG]

As I say, you take only the aspect of one Flying school and not taking into account other aspects (Ground Studies, FNPT). I am in touch with ALL the schools. Issues are not the same in HMA and MFA. You should avoid to extend your conclusion from where you are to the other schools.
Also I guess you are young. We are in Asia, time value is not the same than Europe: It takes a lot of time to rectify a situation, more than in Europe.
ICAO standard is the minimum which everybody must comply with as per Chicago convention
ICAO is checking this bare minimum: they have done it recently in Malaysia, DCA is taking into account their findings... It is not going as fast as maybe you would like but it is going in the right direction. Malaysian officials are under pressure, it is not always easy for them as Dato seri, Tan Seri, Sharifah, etc ... are powerful.
I have experienced teaching in the Middle East: it is more difficult than in Malaysia. Academic level is quite low in the Gulf area, most of young nationals are not very motivated as they have money too easily....But quite soon the schools will face the truth as the cycle of Civil aviation in Malaysia is on the down slope.

[zob]

Asian Frog, as i said, i havent checked all training organizations throughout malaysia out and it's true that my comments are mostly based on the place i know. This doesnt prevent the fact that i also know people working in these other places or heard about these places (and not while having a drink in a bar but from first-hand actors) and all the feedback i got was that the particular place i know was the one turning out the cadets with standards the closest from acceptable... and this is scary... True, APFT is just starting up so nothing to say about them. But HMA has been around for quite a while now... even if they r putting some effort onto the ground school, there are still well below what is expected from these ICAO minimums...
Nobody here mentionned about the laziness of students but i think this would deserve an entire thread about the subject... and i would honnestly say that not only a lot of private students should not be in the pipe line... but also a lot of the cadets... I have heard so many stories from students themselves telling me about their interview/selection process for cadetship, it just saddens me... From my experience here, only 5 max per batch could make the cut in any other country in terms of getting a license... Most of them holding a CPL-IR would not even be able to get a PPL in any country having a flight training deserving that name...
Mag, you are young!!! how good does that sound??? :}
Anyway, as it has been said, things take a long time around here to be changed and i think most of us gave up in trying to get things improved... I know i have... i just go to work and try to hide my frustration... And by the time things get improved and finally meet decent standards, quite a bunch of students/cadets will be in the right hand seat not having a clue of what's going on and that's what frightens me...
Jumpa lagi

[ASIAN FROG]

In HMA a great job has been done with the FNPT and a Professional European and very experienced Airlines Instructor has bring batch 1 and 2 at what we consider the "Standard " level (Entry level in European Airlines) in spite of the Flying School mess. The FNPT is an important tool and when professionnally used it can make the difference. From my information network, MAS has been very happy by the result.
So you have to consider the whole training Ground + Flying including the synthetic. Do not forget that some are proposing 70% of the training on Simulator (MPL). I disagree personnally with such a ratio but a modern simulator is a superb tool in the hand of Professionals and this is a brilliant demonstration

[airbus2boeing]

Another pissing contest, hmmmmmm. :rolleyes:

[Kai Tak 13]

The FAA licences are low level licences (Theoretical knowledge)compared to Hong Kong, Singaporean, Malaysian, JAR..... that's the reason why several Authorities are not accepting those licences.
Sorry but it is like that...
I do not want to hurt you, there are already numerous threads on this topic. If you compare a JAR licence and a FAA one, the JAR Ground Studies require around 1000 hours of Ground School (at least three times more than a FAA one) and the pass rate at the first attempt is around 80%, the CPL flight tests are similar, but the JAR IR is generally recognised as tougher. And in plus, you have to get the MCC. Malaysia, Hong Kong, ... are related to the former UK system, they are midway between JAR and FAA. But for example, Malaysian DCA is aiming to join the JAR system.
As a principle, a Flight Instructor must have -at least- the same knowledge than his students.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming you for the world's general consensus on FAA licenses, but...
... WTF?? You can require all the ground school time in the world, but what separates good students from the rest are their willingness to take time and learn more on their own, to go above and beyond what is required from their instructors on the ground and in the air. To simply compare FAA and JAR systems based on their requirements is one thing, but to compare the quality of the students each one produces is ignorant. Sweeping generalizations like this should be frowned upon, and if these flight schools in Malaysia and elsewhere in SE Asia feel that way about the FAA, well... it's their loss. With aviation travel BOOMING in this corner of the globe, you'd think they will wise up and realize there's a bigger talent pool to hire from. :suspect:

[Kai Tak 13]

i just feel uncomfortable reading about the malaysian license being above the FAA one...
Sometimes people getting their training done under FAA part 61 (flying club) don't attain the standards compared to part 141 organizations (flight school), although it is not always the case... but in no way these standards are lower than the malaysian standards.
It is true the JAR training is well above most others when it comes to ground knowledge as well as IR... but the malaysian license is nowhere close to compete with any of the one mentionned... I am not familiar with all the training organizations throughout Malaysia but looking at the one i know, i have never seen people coming out of a flight school, an IR-ME in hand, with skills and knowledge so low (if any at all)... :yuk:
It is just pathetic and an insult to all other license holders... and they r the guys who will be flying people around.. "now ANYONE can fly" :}
Thanks zob, I agree with your assessment. I'm pretty confident FAA 141 pilots would have NO PROBLEM teaching students in E/SE Asia, and the barrier is simply the flight schools there whose standards sound unnecessarily high. :)

[ASIAN FROG]

Kai Tak 13
I respect your opinion, But it is Authorities and Airlines you have to convince.

[Kai Tak 13]

I respect your opinion, But it is Authorities and Airlines you have to convince.
Indeed. :)

[kwaiyai]

Hi Kai Tak,
You will prob 40 find that the rules will change. The school I used to work for had to change there intake regs due to lack of FI's available. From what I hear recently there is going to be shortage. Keep applying or whatever,
Regards.:cool:

[watchyourairspeed]

G'day Kai,

Just a word of advice about BPIAA in Shijiazhuang-P.R.C. Talking from own experience. They do have serious problems in terms of getting the student's through their PPL-IFR-CPL followed by a frozen ATPL. Variables such as Weather (hardely have VMC), ATC (in a designated training area only 3 A/c's permitted at one time or 2 A/c's permitted in circuit pattern while RWY has 3,400m) and the Military (ex-airforce retired pilots) trying to do their training.

Not very sure about how part 141 of FAA regulations is conducted in U.S. but here in BPIAA it is just a big babel. Flight dispatchers don't dispatch, ground school is hardlly stucturized (the few instructors left are over-worked), flight department (is short-staffed for the always arriving hordes of student's), standard department ( is a group of FI's trying a self upgrade to the "never-arriving" King_Air), and the top management (always outside the loop and inefficient whenever they do need to make corrections and delineate important directives), oh well but if you were getting 4000US$ /month ... :D

Yes to put it more bluntlly all FI's are well paid (2000US$ / month) still they can only fly an average of 20 to 30 hrs/month, considering all the !!!!e that people have to put up with, it's a bit shamefull.
Or by the way if you decide to embark on this adventure, be aware that there is only one or two restaurants in the academy's vicinity (do you fancy russian food ?) and your hotel room has merely two channels in english.

Long chronic this one. Good luck with your decisions.

Cheers,
WYA

[ASIAN FROG]

just a confirmation... It is the PANAM school? If yes, I have been told that there were some improvements planned particularly the utilisation of a second airfield. What about the other Chinese schools? Any infos?
Thanks

[watchyourairspeed]

G'day Asian Frog.

Yeap BPIAA is PAN_AM. The improvements that are expected for the future aren't solid enougph. At the moment Binzhou (one other satellite base) suffers from the same weather problems as Shijiazhuang, and NO VMC weather conditions. Obviously both instructors and specially ab-initio student's are stucked getting a flight here and there (lacking on flight consistancy :ugh: ). BaoTou (another satellite base located in the inner Mongolia) seems to be doing OK, but (I guess) they will have serious icing problems in the comming winter.

Other known flight academy's in P.R.C.:


CAAC Guanghan flight academy located in Sichuan (also known by CAFUC)
Qingdao Jiutian Spartan Flight academy located in Linyi Airprt Shandong province.About this last one, the only info that I have is that they are also going to operate under CCAR part 141, and they are still in a early phase of business. Well it's about all.

Good luck and regards,
WYA

[VNA Lotus]

Hello! :)

do you know a website about all the jobs in Asia ? I particulary am interested by Vietnam, Vietnam Airlines.

thank you very much!

VNA

[Kai Tak 13]

Hi Kai Tak,
You will prob 40 find that the rules will change. The school I used to work for had to change there intake regs due to lack of FI's available. From what I hear recently there is going to be shortage. Keep applying or whatever,
Regards.:cool:
Hello! :)

Which school did you work for? I'd be more than happy to apply to any school in the region, however finding these schools is extremely difficult, I've spent countless hours searching on the internet and have found nothing more than what has already been mentioned here. And thus far, all that has been mentioned are schools in Malaysia [Asian Frog] which apparently will not take FAA students without extensive experience, and China, which I've heard from both forumers here and my own friends, are poor quality and located in less than desireable towns in the interior. :(

From my personal standpoint, that engineering degree I have is looking more and more desirable. Because if I cannot find a job in aviation abroad, I'm certainly not working here in the USA. I'm sure you're all familiar with the situation here, it's not pretty. And more importantly, it doesn't pay enough to live off of.

[Kai Tak 13]

G'day Kai,

Just a word of advice about BPIAA in Shijiazhuang-P.R.C. Talking from own experience. They do have serious problems in terms of getting the student's through their PPL-IFR-CPL followed by a frozen ATPL. Variables such as Weather (hardely have VMC), ATC (in a designated training area only 3 A/c's permitted at one time or 2 A/c's permitted in circuit pattern while RWY has 3,400m) and the Military (ex-airforce retired pilots) trying to do their training.

Not very sure about how part 141 of FAA regulations is conducted in U.S. but here in BPIAA it is just a big babel. Flight dispatchers don't dispatch, ground school is hardlly stucturized (the few instructors left are over-worked), flight department (is short-staffed for the always arriving hordes of student's), standard department ( is a group of FI's trying a self upgrade to the "never-arriving" King_Air), and the top management (always outside the loop and inefficient whenever they do need to make corrections and delineate important directives), oh well but if you were getting 4000US$ /month ... :D

Yes to put it more bluntlly all FI's are well paid (2000US$ / month) still they can only fly an average of 20 to 30 hrs/month, considering all the !!!!e that people have to put up with, it's a bit shamefull.
Or by the way if you decide to embark on this adventure, be aware that there is only one or two restaurants in the academy's vicinity (do you fancy russian food ?) and your hotel room has merely two channels in english.

Long chronic this one. Good luck with your decisions.

Cheers,
WYA
Hello!

Yep, that's exactly what I have heard from another person whom I know has taught at that school. It's a failing school that pays well, but is located in a not so desirable town. I've also heard [and I've been to China before so I'd believe it] that the air quality there is extremely poor, and that the FI's at the school have a bit of a negative reputation with the locals. It really does sounds quite awful. :(

Thanks for the heads up, perhaps China is not the best country for flight schools. Perhaps another country? :)

Regards, Jeff

[ASIAN FROG]

Watchyourairspeed,
Thank you for the information.
So no real change in one year, there were some feedbacks on Canadian websites.....

[kwaiyai]

OK Kai Tak 13, I sent you PM.
Regards,