DXB - Vectors or Hold

[helen-damnation]

There are, I think, 3 ATC watches in DXB ATC and they all do things slightly differently (legally:ok: ) to move us around when we are inbound.

One of the differences is the style of delaying you. Some have started to use the hold and some vector you all over the UAE.

Personally, I would rather go into the hold with an EAT. With that, I can plan ahead knowing track miles and time/fuel etc.

However, that's just my opinion ;) , what's yours?

[jack schidt]

Hold, thats what it's there for and it keeps you in the loop as to where you are in the queue. Works well in LHR and then the pilot can plan, ATC knows where they all are and everyone is happy. Its getting bad on the way in, "turn R 90 Deg, decel to min clean.....turn left 180 Deg speed 280". Whats wrong with a nice organised hold, especially when you are tired its nice to let the AP fly you round, rather than manipulate the LRLRLR turns, wondering where you are in the pattern/plan. Finally and most importantly, not RAVEC everyone around means a lot less RT chatter and less room for mistakes from everyone.:suspect:

[Andu]

Holds rather than vectoring please - but not half way to Karachi or Theran as we currenty do (Bubin and Desdi).

Coming in from Europe last week during the midnight rush, I was sent to Bubin - 60 miles the other side of Dubai - to hold. Granted, we didn't quite get there before being turned back for the approach.

It never ceases to amaze me how EK goes to such great lengths to have us save fuel... except at the home port. The early descents, (I heard one aircraft being given FL230 30 miles before ORSAR last night with RW30 in use at Dubai), the remote holding, but most importantly, the drag it in vectoring results in all those savings in fuel elsewhere - and more - being squandered every night of the week by standard arrivals into Dubai. On average, in my experience, you need nearly twice as much fuel from top of descent into Dubai than at any other port in the EK network - that's almost two tonnes as opposed to around one tonne, which is not inconsiderable.

The guys on Dubai Approach do a damned fine job handling the amount of traffic they're presented with every night given the p***poor hand of cards they're dealt by the Viking gentleman in Abu Dhabi. I just can't understand why TCAS or someone high up in EK doesn't demand Abu Dhabi gets the hell out of the equation and lets Dubai handle the incoming traffic efficiently. The current procedures are costing EK (and every other user of Dubai) a veritable fortune in unnecessary fuel burn.

End of rant.

[Schnowzer]

Dubai's problem is that they only have limited control of the stack. They have constantly been refused control of the arrival holds by Mr ATC at Abu Dhabi. Holds work for me and speaking to the ATCers it would work for them as well.

[Fly Through]

Back to this thread again..........and I left 2 years ago!! You're right the ATCO's would love control of a closer hold, as it is in the rest of the world but it's that bloody danish git in Abu Dhabi. It's all politics and whose built the biggest empire, won't change until EK create a big enough stink in the corriders of power.

[Nimmer]

The holds again!!! We all agree holding is best for everybody, that is except for Mr. Dane at abu dhabi. Dubai needs holds in the TMA, especially in single runway ops. Classic example last night, no outbounds so 5 mile gaps order of the day, however by the time ACC vectored the stuff out of the holds and gave it to us in approach, we had outbounds at the hold!!!

ATC isn't rocket science, holding by approach controllers works everwhere else, why can't Mr. Dane see that I wonder!!!!

Amazes me how both ACC and Dubai provide the service level we do with these procedures, however compared to other ATC units our service provision is crap.
To sum ATC in the UAE;
Safe, Orderly expeditious, SAFE-just (But we have our moments), orderly (hardly), expeditious (never).

[Wiley]

May I add my vote for close in holds?

[ShockWave]

After being vectored 30NM left then 20 right the other night and told to keep my speed up, I finally lost my patience and asked why I couldn't slow up. The answer from UAE control was that If I slowed up it would have a knock on effect for following traffic! I just couldn't grasp his logic I am on descent and any other traffic behind would also be on descent and we are all heading to the same or neighbouring airports and presumably end up on final approach with the correct spacing, so why, why, why do I have to tour the UAE airspace at high speed??? Please some one explain this preference for fuel wasting. I try really hard to remaine objective and calm with these guys but after spending your whole day trying to save fuel and time they just don't seem to be interested in playing the same game. :ugh:

[Funk]

Until the powers that be institute proper flow management, we at the UAE ACC will vector, speed control, hold for 10,15 or 20 mile trails as DXB require then you go over to 124.9 no speed control direct yada yada. Keep telling your bosses at Emirates/Arabia etc how much money it is costing them by having this bazaar (bizarre) mentality to DXB flow and maybe they will wake up and fix it. :ugh:

As for DXB having holds, more power to them :ugh:

[Wiley]

Seems to me that rather than sending us messages about Tupolovs landing on the wrong runway, TCAS' credibility would soar with his troops if he sorted this one out without delay.

Emirates is the major 'end user' of the 'product' - ATC - into Dubai, and frankly, from an end user's perspective, the product is badly in need of recall and replacement.

Surely if EK senior management went to the Sheikh (pick a Sheikh, any Sheikh), and told him the current system is costing his airline a fortune in unnecessary fuel bills, and that even the poor sods providing the 'service' agree it's a disaster on very rickety wheels, said Sheikh would simply tell the Dane down in Abu Dhabi to sort it out poste haste.

'They' say that EK management read these posts. If that's the case, please prove it to be so by sorting this current disaster out. It's a win-win situation for everybody but the Empire Builders. Happy chappies at bothe ends of the microphone and bigger bonuses for senior management.

[LDG NO BLUE]

Airport movement should be restricted by its capacity and accordingly allocate slots instead of holds or long vectors!

I guess that's a more political, then technical subject, isn't?

LNB

[ShockWave]

I can feel several Capt's special reports comming up about this, hope it helps!
The one and only time I got to visit the shiny new ATC unit in DXB was quite surprizing. Buried away in the bowls of the tower were a bunch of hard working guys and gals staring at antquated out of focus screens that made me want to puke up after just a few minutes. I guess once your eyesight goes it prabably looks OK. The powers that be apparently didn't want to update something that nobody else could see!!!

[helen-damnation]

LDG NO BLUE

A bit difficult in a company that, because of its geographical position, has two major peak flows with (at a guess), 70% or more of its a/c coming in or out of DXB.
Single runway ops does'nt help :ugh:

Time for all those CSRs :oh: :ok:

[Muttley Crew]

CSRs do jack schidt.

I prefer vectors if delay must be given. Who wants to go around in circles? Just take a little "extra" for mum and the kids and enjoy the tour.

If they are going to sort out efficiencies, let's start with a freakin' ACD frequency, so when you roll off the high-speed and stop just short of "K", you can actually get a word in instead of listening to tw.ats saying:

"Dubai ground Air India ***???"

"Air India *** go ahead/pass msg"

"Air india *** for mumbai mumbai, request clearance?"

(no more callsigns......)

"What's your bay?"

"Bay F4"

"What type?"

"Boing 747"

"What is requested level?"

"FL 350?"

"Dubai ground, assman *** request taxi???"

"Standby..."

"Go ahead??"

"Dubai ground, air india ***???"

[Wiley]

2nd top item on my wish list - data link for pre departure clearances at DXB, for the reason given above. The (lack of) self discipline displayed by far too many users on DXB GND freq is on a par with the self discipline you see among the majority of drivers on Shk Zayed Rd.

I never cease to be amazed at the number of overtransmissions you hear in any given fifteen minute period as people come on freq and start talking without listening out, and then don't give the required information in one hit - exactly as described above.

It must drive the poor bloody ATCOs spare.

[Ali Bin Somewhere]

same old same old.........

pilots- some prefer vectors, others prefer to hold, some prefer to fly their own speed, others prefer their speed isued as they take off from whogivesa@#$% and every single one of you think you should be number one even though there are 10 a/c in front of you...... :ok:

easy solution is enroute slot times. you make the time you get your slot to land at a set speed/decent profile. you cant make the slot time or cant comply with the speed/decent profile you go into an enroute hold away from the arrivial and wait there till a slot opens up. simple.

on another note

every night we are supposed to give dubai 10nm in trail (rwy 30) through desdi and 15nm through bubin no closing between all a/c be they props or jets. these are the rules that we have to operate under as issued by both dubai and uae acc.

without fail dubai app call us up with "we need anywhere between 15nm to 30nm from 1830(ish) both gates" with the occasional "everything 230-250 ias by desdi/bubin" when asked why we are told reasons rangeing from "it might get busy" to "there are a couple of depatures to go". so we go to the effort of vectoring/holding/speedcontrol to give the required spacing. then after much work the a/c are transfered to dubai app. dub on first contact issue "cancel speed track direct to.......":ugh:

result dub are called a fantastic bunch of guys/girls and why dont they do all the sequencing cause we always get this from them, when in reality they are the ones asking for double or triple the required spacing.

uae acc are called a bunch of idiots who shouldn't be allowed to talk to a/c when in reality the vectors/speed/holds are due to the extra spacing requirements given to us by the dubai app controllers.

this will of course go in one ear and out the other along with all the basic r/t and airmanship that everyone is supposed to have but there you go. its only the middle east so what does it matter..........:(

[Nimmer]

Ali Bin Somewhere, the best argument Ive heard for Dubai having holds in the TMA, the conditions you describe are a great indication of how these antiquated procedures are failing!!!

Find it amazing how night after night you vector A/C all over the sky, working far too hard, costing the airlines money, when a "route to .... Hold maintain .... Feet and contact Dubai approach" would solve all the problems.

Mr Dane, either pay a visit to the London TMA or just leave!!!!

[Ali Bin Somewhere]

what would solve some of the probs nimmer me old son is dubai accepting 10nm as they are supposed to instead of this 15,20,25,30nm spacing we have to give "in case it gets busy/there might be some depatures" . :E

perfect example my first night shift 7 inbound all approx 8-12nm in trail. would have worked a treat with some speeds till dubai asked for 30nm in trail as they had some depatures pending. in one easy step we have gone from a 70nm trail to a 210nm trail. so vectors holds and speeds given with the correct spacing handed off to dubai. on first contact dubai did the usual "dct no speed". well i suppose if there are ALOT of depatures going and being single rwy ops i can sort of understand some increased spacing. but 30nm?????
total count for depatures within the hour period from the start of the sequence??? 4.........:\

as has been said earlier you want the holds do a saftey/economy case, prove your point and go to the bosses. i hope you enjoy them.

I AM NOT A DEFENDER OF THE GREAT DANE AND HIS POLICIES but he didn't just take the airspace/holds etc from dubai. the bosses in dubai had to agree and sign them over. they are as much to blame as he is.

[Fox3snapshot]

At the end of the day nothing will be solved at this level.

Whilst the odd manager may read it and have a giggle at the power they have to make life difficult for operatives and operators alike, it will take the company's to formally complain before anything will ever get done.

The reality is with

(1) An Open Skies Policy (note here please Emirates Operators that this means ANYBODY can come here and is afforded the same priority!!!!!!);

(2) Works In Progress that should have occurred 10 years ago when we decided to make this the hub of the world;

(3) Antiquated equipment;

(4) Understaffing;

(5) Outdated and Dangerous Procedures;

(6) No Slot Times

(7) Limited or No Dialog with adjacent units or sectors;

(8) Independant Agenda's within the UAE States

(9) Non Compatability of Radars and Associated Equipment in our own Emirates; and importantly....

(7) No Industry Goodwill

..........we are destined to bleat at each other on PPrune and cry into our keyboards for a long time to come (as the England soccer fans are probably doing in public as we speak :E )

Sorry team, but there is no answer to this in the short term.

Smile, wave and log onto your offshore accounts and think of your next holiday. Welcome to the Middle East. :(

[Nimmer]

Ali,

My old mate, you describe a fine example of the differing standards throughout the watches. Some want 8 mile gaps for departures, other controllers happy with 6, some watches put loads of flow rates on, sometimes without even looking at the prevailing traffic situation, others prefer to be flexible.

hey you know this your on the receiving end, but why you may ask? well one of the problems is that NOBODY fails to validate because we need staff. The procedures help to keep the standrards low, as they are based around the lowest standard, examples;

5 aircraft sector loading on arrivals, total crap, but helps those that can't cope. Gap sizes for departures, 6 works but you have to be skillfull, 8 is for the lazy controller.Needing a runway length between a departure and arrival, because some don't know what to do in the event of a late go around!!!

Plus combine the above with incident investigation that automatically suspends the controller for 6 days, and you have a unit that has a system that has contollers controlling on fear of doing anything wrong. and having no inclination in wanting to move traffic.

Will things change, not in my lifetime, back to the real world for me!!!!

[Ali Bin Somewhere]

some watches put loads of flow rates on, sometimes without even looking at the prevailing traffic situation, others prefer to be flexible

approx 29 times flow was issued from dubai for inbounds for june and when i checked it was about the 25th, still 5 days to go (will get exact figures for you if you like) "flexible" crews must have been on leave.......

well one of the problems is that NOBODY fails to validate because we need staff.

If our guys dont meet the std then they are failed. 3 expats sent home who couldn't cut it, 1 sacked for failing his yearly theory, 1 sacked over incident as well as at least 8 locals not even finishing the sim phase of training. all in the time i have been here. we have been short staffed all that time as well, so perhaps your check officers need to grow some balls and get rid of those who are not up to the std.

. The procedures help to keep the standrards low, as they are based around the lowest standard, examples;
5 aircraft sector loading on arrivals, total crap, but helps those that can't cope. Gap sizes for departures, 6 works but you have to be skillfull, 8 is for the lazy controller.Needing a runway length between a departure and arrival, because some don't know what to do in the event of a late go around!!!

sounds like a good reason NOT to give dubai control of holds that can have up to 11 a/c at one time :E

your right fox. not going to change soon. we can bitch as much as we like but until one of the airline bosses stops smoking his hubbly-bubbly for more then 30sec and realises how much money its costing him nothing will be done.

[Capt Groper]

Definately Holding,

1/ Less chance of Human Error in having A/C circle in a prescribed area than with numerous RT calls and changes of vectors over the UAE airspace,
2/ More fuel efficient if the standard STAR was flown from the hold to landing allowing the A/C to follow a standard profile CDA to touchdown,
3/ Less RT if the standard arrival could be flown, obviously with SPD and ALT constrains.
4/Loging of actual holding delays would help in planning prior to Departure to DXB,
5/ Plane common sense.:) :cool:

[Wiley]

So how would the controllers who troll this site feel about a 7000' min alt holding pattern over Sharjah that could feed either runway with minimum disruption if a runway switch occurs? (A sort of "Lambourne on Sand")

Such a close in hold, particularly if it was 120 inbound and a right hand pattern, (ie, in between Dubai and Sharjah), would cause minimum disruption to DXB and SHJ SIDS and would allow an almost constant descent onto finals after release from the hold.

With EK management's current fixation on saving money at all costs in all areas, I can't believe they haven't tumbled onto the incredible waste in unnecessary fuel burn they're incurring under the current system.

[Red Dragon]

approx 29 times flow was issued from dubai for inbounds for june and when i checked it was about the 25th, still 5 days to go (will get exact figures for you if you like) "flexible" crews must have been on leave.......


Ali,
By that do you mean that anyone requesting more than the idle rate is being inflexible? That's a little naive don't you think? Surely the option of increased flow is there for a reason to control the amount of traffic entering the CTA. If it's busy with inbounds it reaches a point very quickly even with the Director position open where the sectors are at their maximum approved loading. Hence greater gaps in the arrivals. Let us not forget that according to the letter of agreement we cannot request speed control on individual flights to control the flow. The only way we can is to increase the rate. I'm sure there are some that do it too soon or too much, but everyone is well aware of the result if it's too little too late. I think it's obvious from the responses from the crews in this thread that holding is preferred to the ridiculous conga line that we get when insufficient flow is put on at the appropriate time. If it means applying the letter of agreement 'to the letter' it'll prove that the system doesn't work and that things need to change.

RD

[Ali Bin Somewhere]

red no, just because dubai ask for extra spacing does not mean they are inflexable.

the inflexability is when dubai use "lots of dep's" as an excuse when there are 4 in the hour, or when they say its going to "get busy later" usually after 1930 and they put the flow in place of 35nm at 1800, or when we have a stream inbound from the west where we can give you 10-15nm intrail with just speeds, nothing inbound from the east for the next hour, with 1 depature pending and we are told no still need 20-35nm no reason given..... and the a/c are still given "track direct no speed" on first contact with dubai. :mad:

use the holds? yes i do when needed. vector? again guilty but try and avoid at all costs big multiple vectors. speeds again yes. do i use the holds more as a result of the points of view expressed on here. no. the traffic is on the arrivials sectors not on pprune.

if we are talking about sticking to the letter of agreement, ranbi gate heading 285deg does not = direct orsar, riket isn't direct tonvo and 3 dep through tonvo every ten min means 3 not 5. but you still ask for that stuff and we help you out because we are trying to "work together". :ok: howabout a bit of the same from dubai. use the big range to look at the traffic and flow accordingly.;)

[futr-kofeshop-dweler]

I've kept shut for a while but Ali B, but you got to be kidding me...

Back in the day, if the Co-ordinator was switched on, he would look long range and assign speeds for the inbounds, (eg. first 3 guys less then 10 miles is ok, high speed and direct, then slow down number 4), and as long as the co-od knew what was up, it all worked out fine. Then we get a retarded memo, that we can't call you guys, and co-ordinate individual aircraft.

You can't have it both ways, either let the co-ordinator call and co-ordinate what comes into our airspace and at what speed when it's busy, or get used to 30 miles and 230 kts for straight ins. There are tower controllers who REFUSE to use less them 8 mile gaps, and it is well within their right, so I would like you to work out how much space you need between 2 straight in arrivals to have 8 miles at touchdown? 10 miles with both of them coming thru 320 kts? Nope...

If they just let the Co-ordinator do his job, there would be 90% less BS then what goes on today... And that would also require having co-ordinators who are actually trained in the position... Ah forget it, sounds like work... nuthin will change so we're all just pissing in the wind...

Oh well, go Portugal, all you Dubai boys, when I get back I am collecting on those "friendly wagers!" If only Figo and Ronaldo we're running this airspace.....

[Ghostflyer]

They'd be trying to get their mates sent off!:}

[Nimmer]

Figo and Ronaldo running the airspace FKD!!! Be to busy rolling around on the floor in agnony after they had sprained there little finger!!!

Never thought I would ever say this BUT GO FRANCE!!!!!

[Fox3snapshot]

Sorry did I miss something...is England out!!??? :E

[ATCODAD]

FKD

Thanks for clearing up the mystery, the DUB coord has never actually worked according to what they are supposed to do? So blame the procedure you have never followed??? Does anyone in Dubai know whatthe coord is supposed to do?

The coord is supposed to determine the flow rate not coordinate individually, we are busy enough as it is, we do not have time to answer Dubai's call every minute. How about learning how to determine a basic flow rate and then having the balls to stand by it. Running at 30 miles is not determining a flow rate, that's determining a slow rate.

I'm getting too old for this, time to move somewhere where ATC's are ATC's and sheep are scared.

[Ali Bin Somewhere]

Back in the day, if the Co-ordinator was switched on, he would look long range and assign speeds for the inbounds, (eg. first 3 guys less then 10 miles is ok, high speed and direct, then slow down number 4), and as long as the co-od knew what was up, it all worked out fine. Then we get a retarded memo, that we can't call you guys, and co-ordinate individual aircraft.

the instruction i believe you are refering to was issued by dubai due to the ammount of times dubai app would issue flow instructions eg. holds, speed reductions etc when the a/c were overhead/past the point they wanted the speed/hold to occur. ie uae123 overhead desdi, dubai call me on north to hold him at desdi. managed to get him into a hold just past desdi only for duabi then to say no dont hold him bring him in h090, so canceld hold he had just started and turned him right h090 and handed off to app. see the a/c make a 180deg turn and then a/c calls me tracking to desdi to hold. dubai then call back and say changed mind as they have a depature pending and need him to hold for 2 patterns. 100% true. the memo also only came out 6 mths ago, in my time here before then the only flow we tended to recieved was when it had already gone to %$^# in dubai airspace :ugh:

Then we get a retarded memo, that we can't call you guys, and co-ordinate individual aircraft.

true you are not supposed to co-ord individual a/c but you can look on the big screen and see whats going on, and change the flow rate to suit. ie we only need 10nm until baw12 then 15nm. or the bunch of 10 coming trough from the west we only need 10nm but hold the 2 from the east till time ..... or tell the twr to hold the 2 pending dep on the ground till time .... while you accept 10nm for the next 10a/c etc etc. pilots happy due less delays in the air and happy as they are useing less fuel instead of holding for 30nm spacing, controllers happy as things run smoother giving 10nm instead of 30nm, mangement happy as you are complying with the memo and just adjusting flow rates not giving instructions for individual a/c. sounds a bit better then Ah forget it, sounds like work

10 miles with both of them coming thru 320 kts?
we are required to give you all a/c 10nm {or 15nm from the east on rwy 30 }in trail when the second passes the gate and all a/c are to be 250ias from the arrivial gate if they are less then 250ias we must co-ord and let you know. so not sure where the 320ias came from.

no its not a perfect system. yes we are beating our heads against a wall trying to get others ie. app, pilots, management etc to understand our point of view. but its very frustrating to read on here how bad a job uae acc do by slowing/vectoring/holding to give dubai such huge spacing when the reason for all that is due to dubai app and the enormous restrictions they put on in the first place.

[Red Dragon]

Ali,

Apart from the concensus that holding is better than a conga tour of the Dubai CTA it's sad to see such a lack of appreciation of how things are done at each other's unit. I'm happy to say that I've been to the centre so have a better appreciation of the conditions/procedures you work to. Maybe it would be a good idea if some of you guys took a trip to Dubai on a busy night shift and see first hand what we are up against. Single runway ops, limited taxi routes available and a building site for an airport are just a few of the issues we have against us. I have it on good authority that famil visits for you to us are positively discouraged but I think it's the only way we will have a better picture of what's going on and work together. After all we're batting for the same team.


or the bunch of 10 coming trough from the west we only need 10nm but hold the 2 from the east till time .....

Sorry but we're not allowed to do that. We can only stipulate the flow rate, it's up to you to decide whether holding is required...(except emergency holding). It would be great of we could but the LoA doesn't allow it. More proof of a poor system.

RD

[03Rnow30R]

ATCODAD and ALI B. So which is it? Set up the flow and leave it all night so we don't call you and waste your time? Or call and try to do the "10 miles between this one till that one and then back to 20 miles" thing? You contradict each other as to which you would prefer.

I worked a nightshift a while back with the dreaded 30 mile spacing, we adjusted the flow east and west as the traffic determined. Arrivals ended up with 8 miles spacing on final with everyone turning on between 10 and 15 miles. Yes they were holding, but it worked very well with no daisy chain pushing up past the Barracuda. With no slot system out of Dubai, we can't plan an accurate arrival rate every 30 minutes as we have no idea how many will be starting. Wish we could.

I agree some guys on the coordinater put in more work than others, but the same can be said for the "less pro-active" down at ACC. Some do it better than others. Some are a pleasure to work with and others are not. I am sure you feel the same about some of the Dubai lot.

If you think this is bad, wait till the next phase of construction starts.

We would love to see you guys up here for a look see and hopefuly improve relations. Anybody accept?

[ATCODAD]

03Rnow30R

Not so much a contradiction than a willingness to accept a flow rate that suits the traffic at the time, this does not mean 20nm now and after 10 mins 25nm and then back to 10nm 10mins later, rather look long range and give us a flow rate we can work with before the aircraft start calling us. We used to get flow rates imposed on us at the last minute which would end up in a dog fight, we are now at the other extreme of flow rates being placed with no justification. I agree that not all shifts do this and it is perhaps the inconsistency of the application of flow that frustrates us even more.

I agree with station visits, how about a boat trip out to the palm??

[Ali Bin Somewhere]

red and 03 all im asking for is some forethought and flexability.

30nm in trail seems a smidge of overkill at 1800 when the arrivials burst isn't scheduled in for another 1 1/2 hours. double spacing just to fit in 4 depatures in the next hour seems a bit excessive. keeping the flow rate on till well after the fun has finished comes across as a triffle lazy. i know we are all hard workers blaa blaa blaa but making us give you 30nm between 3 a/c at 2am with no dep pending and nothing in from the east you can understand why some people would think that.:ooh:

as far as visits go would love to come down to duabi and have a look at why things are the way they are and how you cope. i have tried 3 times since arriving to get down there. twice through work to be knocked back and once on my own to be told by app that i was not allowed access to app as it was not approved by management.:(

talking about the next phase what are the restrictions going to be and how have your bosses told you to handle it?

[Fox3snapshot]

A social get-together a few coldies, a shwarmer, a bit of chest poking followed by a few more coldies should iron out a few of the problems we are all facing on a daily basis.

Lets face it we can't change the policy in this environment but at least we can gain a better understanding of each others problems and at a unit level try and help each other out.

We are all in this together!

:ok:

[03Rnow30R]

Agree very much wth the social idea. Will ask management about the the Dubai policy on visits.

Regarding the next phase of construction. Not sure what the flow will be that is going to be dictated by the authority. The problem is not going to be the runway, a few more of the taxiways are going to be closed (among them "k"). The GMC guys are going to have a nightmare trying to move the acft around the place. The fact that the EK hanger has moved to the other side of the runway, now sees a huge amount of towing traffic crossing the runways. The options to get them to the bay will be reduced to one, and that will be contraflow to the single taxiway servicing the runway. Cool huh?

Sorry guys, I think this is going to go on for a while more.

[Muttley Crew]

A social get-together a few coldies, a shwarmer, a bit of chest poking followed by a few more coldies.........followed by you losing your mobile/digi camera/sunnies (again) and passing out on someone's floor..... :D

:E

[Fox3snapshot]

Mutley!
OK so I was going through a phase, rehab really works....now where did I put my drink...hick... :8

I did a quick calculation and I don't think I came out too badly...:oh:

Ticket........................... 150 DHS
3 Buckets of fizzies........... 450 DHS
2 Bottles of Grape Juice........... 400 DHS
6 Pies......... .................. 40 DHS (The most critical part of the operation, phases 2 and 3 not possible without them!)
7's Jersey........................ 300 DHS (proof of attendance and a method of retracing one's steps)
1 Sony Digicam...................... 2100 DHS
Oakley Sunnies....................... 350 DHS
Mobile............................ 1700 DHS
Girlfriends perfume................ 450 DHS (safely stored in Sony camera bag)
The Girlfriend...................... 500 DHS (replacement fee from Le Cyclone dating service)
Taxi fare there...................... 25 DHS
Taxi Fare home..................... 300 DHS (possible clean up fee and via Ras Al Khaimah included in that)
Pride............................... 3 DHS (lost that when I tangled up with the Dubai mob so cheap to replace!)


Total for a top day out: 6,768 DHS give or take.

Now where else in the world can you get value for money like that!??

Now does anybody have the final result from the last 7's, for the life of me can't recall seeing a footy kicked, was it called off ???
:p

[Yakkity MK2]

:} i know have said this before, but just to poke once again.
Mr Dane of the GCAA has all the cards . He DICTATES what will be doen in and out of Dubai's Air space. I know that there is still a letter on file in Dubai threatening to fire anybody that holds aircraft in the Dubai CTA. It might be amended for go arounds by now , but the matter still remains. The Mr.Dane is in charge and rules by big stick. By the way , he never worked Approach in his career , except in Abu Dhabi So go figure.:ugh:
Good luck all.:)
Same bun fight differnt Decade.

[Muttley Crew]

Is he still there?? I thought they didn't like anything Danish in the middle east anymore......???