Xpats in Indo ?

[rziola]

Chaps

Are there any oppertunity's for Expats in Indo ? Mainly looking at low houred oppertunitys, perhaps with a320 or 737 type rating would open doors ?

[Glorified Donkey]

Typical :* Willing to pay for their jobs.

[zedex7rrrrrrr]

I know an expat who has been working in the Far East and in particular, Indo for 15 years now, not as a pilot but in the maintenance side. He informs me that expat pilots are pretty much non-existent. There's too much *ahem* "nepotism". Personally, I think that's the real problem, not those willing to pay for a TR.

[Glorified Donkey]

Do you blame them? They want to give the jobs to their own people first they don't need 200hr wonders paying for type ratings and whoring themselves to get in. Go instruct!

[rziola]

Not paying for the job, but looking for an oppertunity ! Been to Indo and spoke to a few Indo pilots, lots of 200 hour FO, but captain was telling me there flight training is not as developed as in the US or Europe ! ( Not sure if this is true)
But lets face it, I rather fly with a JAA license holder than a FAA holder, in terms of license quality. ( Please note that I meant license quality, not personal skills)

Paying for a type rating is slowly ( unfotunately becoming reality) developing into a skill that will give me an edge. Anyone here anything about those A320 that ADAM Air is supposed to fly ?

[Glorified Donkey]

No its a reality in Europe. Everyone is looking to jump too fast. Do you think you are qualified at 200hrs to sit right seat in a jet when you've just learned how to fly? When the !!!!! hits the fan its the poor captain stuck doing all the work while you are sucking your thumb.

[speedtwoten]

rziola, ADAM AIR does not operate with A320, they have B737efis and B732, but :ok: they do really need FO, but don't know if you can have a chance there, try to email them give a try to Capt. A. Salmiar his email address [email protected] tell him, what you want:)

[Glorified Donkey]

If you say it is becoming a reality, then that means everyone will buy a type rating you will sooner or later have too many type rated pilots and not enough jobs on those aircraft types. So now the guys with the most time will once again get the jobs and be paid like crap because there is too many type rated pilots, so now you've not only screwed yourself over, but everyone else that didn't have their parents pay for their type rating. And thats how you screw up the industry, not to mention all the pilots and captains you will fly with that will hate you.

[rziola]

Chaps,
Thanks for all the nice ( and not so nice feedback).

What it comes down to is that some of us have more oppertunitys than others, blessed because we can pay for a type rating and speed things along, but instructing is also a option, but since I have the choice, why not?

If I work for Easyjet in europe, I pay for a type rating anyway !
Might as well work somewhere nice and warm ( Yes I have lived in jakarta for 1 year and it's ok !)

As for being qualified, how about the indo pilots with 200 hours on 737, do you think that they are more qualified than a 200 hour European student ?

Glorified Donkey

Pent up frustration ?

PS: I pay for my own study\'s, no mymmy or daddy here to spoon feed me.
Yes, I am a working adult in the consutling business, oppertunity is everywhere, just needs to be found.
The airlines are changing, simply too many of us who want to fly, therefore everyone one for themselves in order to find a edge ! It is called competetion ! Deal with it ! I see it in Jakarta everyday !

[crewmeal]

Gentlemen, calm down. The world is about supply and demand, pilots paying their own way is not new. Some time ago, in Europe, the only way into airlines was via the military or sponsorship, oh how things have changed - and for the better. Yes, it's now extended to guys hocking themselves to the eyeballs to pay for a type rating, but big deal. As for 200 hour wannabees - I've experienced 5000 hour pilots that I wouldn't send my family with and 200 hour cadets that it's a pleasure to train - what they lack in experience they make up for in adaptability. I have no problem flying with young, low time, keen pilots, but I can't bear flying with boring, bitter and twisted has beens!

[Billacabella]

Glorified Donkey says

"They want to give the jobs to their own people first they don't need 200hr wonders paying for type ratings and whoring themselves to get in. Go instruct!"

Sorry you have it wrong. No one will get into airlines with only instructional experience. Charter is the only way

Billa

[Glorified Donkey]

I don't instruct, I don't plan on instructing. But even an instructor with some PIC time is more employable than a 200hr wannabe that thinks hes doing himself a favour to buy a type rating. Its your employers job to pay for that.

And I do know many instructors flying in the airlines, on one the 727 Freighters that went right seat after instructing and is now left seat.

Do everything in stages, you can't become a better pilots by programming FMCs. If you want to get good and fly jets fly a DC9 or 727. My questions to all you 200hr guys, how do you expect to go left seat with such little PIC time??

[rziola]

Glorified Donkey

Just like all the other 200 hour guys flying all around the world ! (Ryanair, EasyJet, GermanWings, All the US Regional carriers ! Plenty of low hour guys there.
Soon that will include me, just wake up see how things truly are, move with the times or loose out !

[AIRJAE]

plz check your pm

[cochise]

rziola....
This is not an attack but some friendly advice. I would not be so bold faced. This industry is very diverse and things change on a daily basis. Yes, it is becoming a reality that buying a typerating may help secure a job but look at where that is leading. We as pilots have started whor!ng ourselves out to the lowest bidder that's willing to give us mediocre employment. People are coming to airlines willing to do anything. Soon we will be working for free and paying them to fly their heavy metal...
I'm just saying the law of cause and effect still applies...
Good Luck to you all. I know how hard it is to get a job in this industry and I appreciate that you're willing to do what ever it takes...but there are consequences...

[Kaptin M]

Here's one version of how things might go for you, rziola.

Rziola rocks up to one of the Indonesian airlines (having paid for his return ticket from the U.K. himself, and entering on a tourist visa), "Hullo, my name is rziola, I have a quality JAA licence with a few hundred hours, and a type rating on the aircraft your airline operates - how about giving me a job as an F.O.? I lived here for a year, and love the hot weather."

"Why Encik, we've been looking for expats like you. What we need to do is line you up for a medical check by the company's doctor, just to make sure you come up to the Indonesian standard. The cost will be $300 U.S., and then you're almost ready to start training. Is that okay?"

"Sure, Captain errrm..Captain. $300 is NOTHING after what I've spent so far. When can I do it?"

"Captain Harga is my name, Encik rziola. Let me see now, I think our doctor can see you in 2 days time, at 11am - the check will take almost all of the day."

2 days later...............
"Well encik, your medical check was A okay :ok: Congratulations! Of course, we realise that you have a quality JAA licence, and that the flight training in Europe is much more developed than our Indonesian system, however it IS company policy to ensure that all pilot recruits meet a certain standard, and to do that we require them to undertake a simulator check with one of our company check airmen. The check will be in the same type of aircraft that we operate, and will last about 1 and a half to 2 hours. We're really only looking at basic flying skills, such as steep turns and stalling, a couple of instrument approaches, and a visual circuit, and to see that you have some procedural knowledge.
Just basic stuff.
The cost to you will be what it costs us to run the sim, plus the hourly rate for the checker, whom we'd have to take off revenue operations to slot you in.
Probably only about $2,000.
Is that okay, Mr rziola?"

"Errrmm...$2,000??"

"About $2,000 - it might be a little less - or it could run a little over, that all depends on you on the day. We all have our good and bad days. After a successful check, you'll be almost ready to start line training."

"Well Captain Harga, I suppose $2,000 is a drop in the bucket compared with what I've already spent. Sure, no problem - when can I do it?"

"I'll need to check sim availability, and the check Captains' rosters. You go back to your hotel, and expect to hear from me in the next 2 or 3 days, rziola. Get to know Indonesia, but don't go too far from your phone."

3 days later, rziola gets the phone call from Capt Harga, advising him that there has been some problems with the sim. but that they've squeezed him in a week later.

After the sim ride................
"Well rziola, I can see that you've only JUST got a bare type rating, but I'm sure the extra time, and instruction, was a great benefit to you....3.5 hours to be precise. $5,000 U.S..
That leaves only another $3,000 you owe us before we sign you up. I'll drive you back to your hotel, but let me take a contract of employment with me from my files.
Do you have the cash at your hotel?"

"Contract of employment? You mean I'm hired?"

"Did you ever doubt it, encik? Will you be paying in cash, or t.c's?"

"Err, travellers' cheques, if that's okay." (Thinks to himself, that sure cuts down on the amount I'd allowed for living expenses here...oh well, I guess there must be cheaper accomodation around.)

"......four thousand nine hundred...five thousand. That's all of it. As a matter of fact, you got a bargain there rziola, because I only charged you at half the going rate of the usual Check Captains, for doing it myself.
Here's the contract. Call, me when you're ready to start."

"Well actually, I'm ready right NOW, Captain Harga. Can I sign it now?"

"Ha ha ha. rziola, I would start you right this very minute if I could, but DCA Indonesia requires you to have an Indonesian licence. You'll need to sit an Air Law examination - it's not too much different to your own country's exam - just like I'd have to do, if I wanted to fly for one of your country's companies.
We can provide you with the study material, and book an exam for you, if you wish?"

"Yes, please.....thank you - terima kaseh, Captain Harga."

"Fine, come out the day after tomorrow, and I'll have all of the study books waiting for you. The exam booking fee, and the study material is just another $500.
A drop in the ocean compared with what you've spent so far." :E

[Mr. Green]

Kaptin M,

You forgot to mention about giving a stash of greens to the persons marking the exams; or bribing the Indo. DCA to get an Indonesian license and also the immigration dept.

The list just goes on and on and on.....at least the govt haven't gotten around to start a Wawasan 5050 yet!

[Kaptin M]

That's probably about Chapter 3, Mr G.
I wonder if rziola gets the drift, though.

If he thinks it's going to be easier getting a job in Indonesia, by simply buying a basic rating, then he hasn't done much background digging.
The "low time" expats who got a go there before with airlines, had considerably more experience than a raw licence and a type endorsement.
I'd suggest he probably has a far, far greater chance of employment with the Easy Jets and the Ryan Airs, in Europe, than in Asia, at this time.

Many of you seem to think that because the Asian currencies are generally weaker than the European and American currencies, you can pick up flying jobs with lesser requirements than is sought after in the West.
I think those same people would be surprised to see the high standard of qualifications held by the expats in this part of the world.
Asian companies are "cherry picking" - taking the more experienced pilots, by offering salaries to ATTRACT these people away from their current Western employers.
On the other hand, the Australian, American, and European airlines are gambling that not a lot of pilots will trade their current lifestyle for a vastly different one, and hence are leaving salaries alone.
The trade-off is lifestyle versus dollars.

Look at the number of furloughed pilots in the U.S., who would rather stay unemployed in aviation, than move to Asia.
By the same token, many of those pilots don't have the minimum experience levels required by Asian companies, and/or they are a long time out of currency.

[bluepacific]

And that rziola sums it to the tee.:ok:
What is going on with the youth of today, rush rush rush, I can remember when having scored a job in the field I choose for a career was just fantastic , and you appreciated what you had. Now days I guess it's off the 152 straight into the left seat of a 737/320. What next ???:confused:

[rziola]

Chaps

I appreciate the honesty, having lived in Indo, I am well aware of the Bribery in government branches. It was more an enquiry really, but points taken. Figured that type rating might be hard to get for the average Indonesia ( $10K to $15K) So figured a year on low salary, 500 hour, 1000 TT and then back to Europe. Although this would not make me a experienced pilot by any means, 500 hours on the 737 or A320 would make me employable with several European or Middle East Airline.

So, maybe to Africa then ?
:D

[Glorified Donkey]

First off last time I checked a 737 or A320 type rating was $30,000, most likely the company will want to sign you onto a contract, 2 or 3 years minimum. Middle East airline for sure would not hire you with such low hours unless you were lucky with a small carrier like Air Arabia. But Qatar, Gulf Air or Emirates forget it!

[rziola]

http://www.hubair.net/boeing%20737%20Type%20Rating.htm

18,000 Euro or 26,000 Euro with 100 Hour line training, I am well aware of what the costs are, 30,000 USD for a 737 Type rating ? In the states, Flight safety will give you a 737 type rating for 12, 000 USD and 4, 000 USd for base check.

[Glorified Donkey]

When they say 50 hours on type they mean in a real plane not in a simulator. When they say 1500TT and 50 on type, they know you most likely won't have 1500TT and 50 on type you'll have more TT, but they require minimum an ATPL and 50 real "real hours on type" which you would probably have more. if you had any real flying time on type. Just like some carriers require 100 on type or 500 on type.

[bluepacific]

Airfranz I've flown with arses like you , you're a danger to aviation, a ace in your own eyes.

:yuk:

[rziola]

Chaps
Regardless of what you are all depressed about, plenty of low hour guys out there flying, I intend to be one of them soon, type rating and 500 hours on type with TT 1000 will get me employed, according to Parc and Agency's. More importantly, according to certain HR's in the Middle East, you all know who they are.

[Glorified Donkey]

airfranz, I wish my mommy and daddy were as good to me as yours were to you.

rziola, Good luck to you you'll be competing with guys that have over 3500 hours or more applying for the same job.

[Deske1]

I have started as a glider 16 years ago,then towed gliders.
Spent 2 years in a Flight School as an instructor.
Flew 3 years on turbo-prop,night cargo operation as F/O.
5 years as F/O onthe 737
And now F/O on 4 horse power "big bird" in Asia.

And I am proud of it mr. airfranz.

Its a profession for us and we want to pay the bills of my families and secure the future of our childreen,not a kindergarten for the high ego rich boys who dont care if he has to pay to get a seat,otherwise never could get close to an airplane within 100 meters.:yuk:

I hope when you are sick,your doctor will be that kind who has bought his profession for money and didnt climb the ladder of his profession,cause he didnt want to wait until a stupid CEO thinks he is qualified for the job.:ok:

[rziola]

Chaps

Like Anything in life, nothing is guaranteed. But I have been assured that although this is not the traditional way of gaining airine employment, that my chances are just as good. Does this make me any less of a competent pilot ? What I lack in Experience, I will learn and make up with enthusiasm on all levels in terms of dedications.

Seem like some people here thing only because it is not a traditional way, it not the right way !

But everyone has there own opionion, we will see in a few years how I got on, I can be judged then. for now, I will do what will provide me with the best options.

[A330AV8R]

RIZOLA

If you are compelled to pay for your rating then by all means go ahead , jus to give you an idea some companies will initially pay for it then theyl cut it off your salary every month however if you can cough up enough greenbacks to pay for it yourself that will save you the Bond period which is basically what everones doing these days !

Yes Aviation in Indias booming at the moment with a lot of Airbus A320's and Boeing 737's being influxed in the market so if your typed on either of these machines your good to go

Personally if you can an Airbus A320 type there will be nothing like that cause form there you can move on EVENTUALLY to A330 /340 or for that matter 380 as well .

wish you all the BEST !

[zedex7rrrrrrr]

What I lack in Experience, I will learn and make up with enthusiasm on all levels in terms of dedications.

Rziola, don't justify your self, the above goes without saying. These guys have simply got a chip on their shoulder. That's their problem, let them get on with it. Given the opportunity, they would have done they same as we are doing now. For whatever reasons, they didn't have the opportunity and now they're just bitter and resentful.

And by the way, my mummy and daddy are not particularly rich, they are not giving me money and every single penny I've spent to get this far, I either made or borrowed against my own name. It's pretty offensive to assume that someone with initiative and determination only succeeded by way of the silverspoon. The "little rich kid" line is a bit childish really, isn't it? Give it a rest.

[Glorified Donkey]

Well I look forward to reading about you guys in the accident reports, while you make fun of the low time guys working !!!!ty jobs, its us that make into the big airlines and dont have to dish out thousands of dollars while you go from one !!!!ty little discount airline to the next. Happy Landings...

airfranz.. Once a whore, always a whore

[A330AV8R]

Well I look forward to reading about you guys in the accident reports


what a looser man ? wow Ive heard of guys who are real frustrated about what they do but Mr Donkey your really talking this to a whole new level ....sorry to have hurt your poor feelings DONKEY !

by the way THANKYOU ZEDEX7 ...... but as you clearly said these poor chaps probably never got the opportunity in life ......hence the bitterness ..... tsk tsk all very touchy yes but ..... life does go on don't it !

and DONKEY KONG ! despite of what you said to me just remember this pal .... when you point your finger at someone else 3 fingers are pointing back at you ! And I suppose your talkin about the whore bit when your lookin in the mirror eh !

Remember that my friend .

Happy landings

[Deske1]

airfranz wrote:

No you don't have to go through the whole prop / instructor / Corporate until your old bald and ugly (Which I really think the 3 of you Guys are ) befor you hit a major !




My dear little friend airfranz,

big surprise on the way,I have passed 32nd year two month ago.really I didnt have to wait till I am old and ugly(maybe i am beautifull also heh?) to hit a major.
:ok: :ok:

[rziola]

So,
What are you all saying, low houred pilots are not competent. I beg to differ !
Either way, different options, different opinions !

[Glorified Donkey]

You beg to differ with what experience? Typical of low houred guys to think they are Gods gift to aviation.

[BlueEagle]

OK guys, this thread has turned into a slanging match and doesn't serve any useful purpose anymore.
If you want to continue abusing each other then please use either Email or PM. Thanks, BE.