JAR 66 CONVERSION TRAINING

[aeroguru]

Hey Mr. Average A AND C guy got 8 weeks and minimum 2820 quid to spare(without travel and accomodation etc.)????
AST Perth are offering modular courses for experienced licensed engineers to JAR66 .
I think I know which sort of LAME'S will go for that.
Then you have the CAA charges of course.
Think I'll stay as a grandad rights type.

[Penn Doff]

Hey aeroguru, are they having a laugh at AST or what!! Even CSE (not famed for their cheap prices) are charging less than a grand.
This subject has been discussed before, apparently KLM UK are also doing courses to convert to JAR 66. Interesting to see that our Scandinavian friends are being given the new license (see ICAO II thread)

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"please report further"

[Bus429]

Penn,

I think the original Scandinavian licence is a bit different from the UK BCAR. Hence the easier conversion.

I've just sent my BCAR ticket in for slaughter. The cheque's been cashed - hope the JAR 66 is up to scratch when it arrives!

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Bus429 - the pilot's pal!

[Penn Doff]

Good on you Bus, have you done the dreaded "X" or are you converting to a restricted JAR 66?? What did it cost you??
Any info much appreciated either through this thread or by e-mail at the address above.

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"please report further"

[WenWe]

KLM UK are running JAR66 conversion courses, but are not yet 147 approved to conduct the exams themselves. (BTW, no I don't work there).
A couple of us are trying to figure out the best way to convert to 66. Should we take section L electrics or go straight to 66?
Anyone got any pros & cons? Anyone gone down either route?

[ATechman]

The company I work for are not bothered in us getting the JAR66 full license as it would only cost them unnecessary money in training as we will have the grandfather rights to sign off the avionic extension items anyway. Even if we did get the full license they would'nt pay us any extra for it.

[spannersatcx]

Penn Doff, Bus 429 is Avionics rather than one of us greasy types.

[Bus429]

Penn,

Converted BCAR LWTR Elec/Inst/Autopilots Aeroplanes/Comb Inst-Autopilot & Radio/Radar.

Have applied for 7 types based on 145 authorisations (pay for max 3). Total with basic conversion = £438
Applied on JAA Form 19C (Transfer of protected rights).
QA Depts of UK airlines/engineering orgs have been sent letters setting out guidelines to make it all less complicated. They have set out a proforma letter for QA to send out. Contact ELD or your QA for further details.

With regard to JAR 66 conversion, my employers have spent a load on sending A & C guys on course. We even contracted two organisations to conduct the training at both main stations for five weeks duration. We have run 3 courses. Offered seats to other airlines/engineering orgs - no joy.
With protected/grandfather rights, conversion courses are a long term service to industry.

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Bus429 - the pilot's pal!

[This message has been edited by Bus429 (edited 24 February 2001).]

[rightstuff]

Hello Bus,not seen you around for a while.How long have you got?Be sure to see me before you depart these shores.

[DoctorA300]

Penn Doff,
The Danish Licence (ICAO type II) that I hold, is not directly convertible to JAR 66, we need (Swedes and Norweigians aswell) a 1 week course in Elex/Acionic Tool training, Crimping, soldering ETC ETC. Not much I agree, but then again, most scandinavian engineers have some experience with Electrical and Avionic work, maby not a lot of practical experience, but our Licence cources and basic training does cover it.
Buy the way, do you need both practical and theretical training, or only therory ??
Brgds
Doc

[Blacksheep]

Ah the good old JAR 66 "X" exam rears its ugly head again.

What worries me about this particular part of JAR 66 is that 'electrics' is as much about about trade practices as theoretical knowledge of electrical systems. What contact part number would you use for position 12 in connector D47778P? What tools would you use to change it? What tool settings are needed? Are any special inserts required? Have you ever used a Time Domain Reflectometer to find a fault in a co-axial cable? The store is out of BMS13-51C Type XII Class 2 20 Gauge. What alternatives do you have? Can you strip a cable and crimp a connection without cutting any strands or making a weak joint? Every time? In the dark and rain on a cold night on the line? Get the picture? It isn't about academic or theoretic knowledge. Try and imagine avionics people, having done private study from books and passed a multi-choice paper, going out to do structural repairs on the aircraft. I know it's fun to take the p*ss out of avionics and our 'electric string' but wiring is dangerous if it isn't done right. Remember SwissAir 111?

Employers and regulators are gambling on the dwindling numbers of avionics people helping out by passing on our knowledge before we retire. In the meantime we will cooperate by using our 'grandfather rights' to certify electrical work. Yet another twist to the joke that is engineering in Britain. In the USA and the rest of Europe, employers spend an average 3% of annual turnover on training. In Britain our employers spend less than 0.15% of annual turnover on training! That is why the Scandinavians are able to convert directly to JAR 66 and that is why JAR 66 could become a safety hazard in UK.

I'm no Luddite. Maintenance engineering needs to keep up with the times and the changes in the way aircraft are designed and built. But it is essential that full and proper training is carried out by the airlines. As usual in UK, the individual is left to do his own training with nothing but book learning and good luck. It's about time that British employers and the UKCAA got off their backsides and did some proper training so they can remain competitive. In fact a bit of management training wouldn't go amiss...

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Through difficulties to the cinema

[Bus429]

Blacksheep - valid points. Some companies are stipulating that recent B1 converts cannot do wiring repairs beyond simple , single cable repairs related to their newly applicable ATAs. They need practical experience. This is a policy decision and is common sense.
Most connectors carry wiring related to multiple ATA chapters, so it would be a good idea to let the protected rights B2 or BCAR carry out repairs and mods.
This could be contentious!

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Bus429 - the pilot's pal!

[Blacksheep]

True enough Bus, but those with grandfather rights won't be available for ever. Old licence holders may never die but they certainly fade away. The JAA's intention as expressed in JAR 66 is surely that Electrics is to be absorbed completely into Airframes and Engines. In most JAA states this is not a problem as the existing Licence holders were trained in electrics from the beginning. In UK they aren't and if the change over is to be succesful then proper training should be given. Here on this forum we see LAEs scrambling about in the dark trying to get lists of questions to help them pass exams. Is this really the way to go? We can easily deduce the CAA's attitude to training from their lack of interest. Plenty of lip service but no action.

When I retire I would still like to fly away on holiday. Perhaps I should stick to foreign carriers though?

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Through difficulties to the cinema

[itwilldoatrip]

Couldn't agree more. With Grandfather rights we have the same as now one A & C and one Avionics engineer going out on job together as now,nothing changed. With JAR 66 we have one snotty nosed kid who knows jack s**t on his own doing ????.
We get a JAR 66 license then who gains but C.A.A. by 500 odd pounds.
Understand if you work overseas they will only give you license on any courses done in the U.K.. This excludes any manafacturer courses as well,but if you return and your new company needs you then this may be reviewed.
Double standards again

[Bus429]

Got my JAR 66 ticket today. Guess what?
I applied for CAT A ratings in addition to my B2 and they have omitted them from the licence. Did everything they asked, too.

[aeroguru]

Get your kicks on JAR66!(apologies to Chuck Berry)
AST is doin' a "special offer" for A and C guys
4 weeks for the X elec element (sect L mod 21) and 2 weeks JAR module 5.
1,245 pounds plus the dreaded VAT.

accom at 147 plus VAT per week.On the web at www.airservicetraining.co.uk/indexa.html (http://www.airservicetraining.co.uk/indexa.html)