EK Overseas Basings.

[propaganda]

Due to the shortage of secondary school places in DXB, have Emirates considered basing crews down-route .
I have been considering applying however, the school issue is a major concern to many.

[Can't think of a name]

There have been a couple of "basing" proposals put forward over the years. The most recent one was 2-3 years ago, and the company response, in writing, was a resounding "no". Wouldn't hold your breath on that one.

Anybody considering coming to Dubai must make the decision based on what conditions are at their time of joining. DO NOT expect anything to change for the better. This has all been discussed extensively on the "Ek pilot's meeting" thread if you want more info.

Cheers!

[Ghostflyer]

Key Fob,

What would seniority have to do with it and which list are you talking about?! Can you show me a precedence which would back that up?

Ghost:uhoh:

[propaganda]

What exactly was their opposition to overseas basings. will their hand be forced by the overcrowding in Dubai.
CX have had crews based down-route for years,seems to work for them ?...:confused:

[druckmefunk]

Emirates and DXB is all about bringing people and money to the UAE. Emirates is by far the biggest employer in DXB and as such contributes a massive amount of money, indirectly, to the local economy, by way of its staff living here. By moving staff overseas, all that money is lost.

So, yes it is arguably operationally better to have staff based (like Cathay), but it doesn't meet the requirements of the government to bring money to DXB. The operating profit of the company comes a distant second to this overiding philosophy. As a case in point, Ek could easily base much of its cabin crew workforce and save millions of dirhams in salaries and accomodation. But they choose to keep them here regardless of the cost impact on the company's bottom line.

I suggest that the only reason that basings will ever be offered is if reasonable jobs are offered O/S that allow people to live in their home coutries, and we start to lose large numbers of drivers.

dmf

[fatbus]

Also, keep inmind the new bidding system will make it harder to commute if you were thinking that way

[propaganda]

Recently heard EK are looking at making Auckland a pacific hub.
It would certainly solve a few issues arising in Dubai.;)

[druckmefunk]

Propoganda,

That is correct, but it still has no direct connection to basings. They are separate and different issues completely as far as the company is concerned.

dmf

[propaganda]

Dmf,

Thanks for that, It's just wishful thinking on my behalf..you don't think the tides are turning then ? DXB isn't the holy grail it once was. I suppose if and when EK have problems recruiting the right quality of pilots they may well reconsider an o/seas base and try and attract some locals.

cheers, Propaganda.

[millerscourt]

Seaman Staynes

So you do need any more locals eh??

Judging by the JNB incident EK as sure as hell needs something.Can you inform us as to what EK does need rather than telling us what it does not.?:ok: :ok: :ok:

[max AB]

Ms court, Judging by the JNB incident , you've made your judgement so why don't you tell us what EK needs...!

[millerscourt]

Seaman Staynes Thanks for your reply. We need all that you need as well in SQ!!

Back to overseas basings.

SQ were slow to realise the perceived benefits to their bottom line by employing ex BA 55ers on 744 based London especially when exchange rate was around $2.6 =£stg as they were paid in Sterling and none of them were prepared to join if it meant sitting in Singapore ,so that is what happened. Now with $3.15= £stg it is costing them more to employ them also no one thought about how much Singapore Inc would lose out by them not paying Singapore Tax or spending money in Singapore because they are based overseas.

SQ also like to have control of their Pilots as do EK and others I am sure so they were very reluctant to go down the overseas basing route but money was the deciding factor at the time.

Carry on with your dreams! :ok: :ok:

[Shuttleworth]

Tax is the key issue.
Emirates pay rates are very low I'm afraid.
No one could afford to pay tax and living expenses outside Dubai on those rates - so you have to live in DXB. (School issues amy not matter to some.)

[tic]

There is no tax here, petrol is cheaper than bottled water: it's a great place, the sun shines for 364 and a half days a year. Schooling is expensive, and because of the heat, sport for kids, out-doors is not good. Boarding schools inOZ/ SA are approx one 3rd of Dubai day schools, and just as good if not better. The money saved can be spent on ID 90's to visit. I'd rather be on Jumeira Beach than Brighton Beach anytime. No comparison.
tic

[donpizmeov]

Tic,
Is life so bad in the UK that a bit of sunshine in Dubai justifies crap schooling, split families and poor pay!!!!
There are a lot of good things with EK. Mostly work mates.....but really all this talk of sunshine and sitting on the beach does not pay the mortage!
Think of the poor fella who must be joining soon (if not already) who is going to have to survive for a long time on FO pay, as all the commands are taken!!!!!
When work mates get sacked to help cover up other issues, it proves we are all living on borrowed time.
Kids grow up way too quickly..and to have no choice (as many pilots have no choice as of this September) but to send your kids thousands of miles away to get an education...is not a good option (well its not outside of the UK anyway!).
I don't think I ever saw anything other than praise written about EK prior to a few years ago. But then its agenda changed. First with our training department, then with the rest of flight ops. And all we can do is look on as our contract is further erroded.
Wearing the rose tinted glasses does not help our plight...and is certainly not fair to those who are considering giving up good jobs to come here to work. At least try and be truthful, so they may make a fully informed decision.
There are a lot of good things about Dubai and EK. But I think you would be fibbing to mention the pay and education on that list.
Rant over...will now enjoy yet another min rest (like everyone else) before before facing yet another sun rise!
Don

[Reverend Doctor Doug]

Don Maaaaaate

To help you out with your current condition I am going to prescribe you one trip back to the Great South Land for a few xxxx's, a lie on the beach, and a huge dose of cultcha.

Keep on smilin you old B*****d

The Rev

[Cap 56]

The reason why there will never be a basing is because the EK lawyers advise against it. It would make EK vulnerable to law suits outside Dubai and they don’t like that at all.

[Three Wire]

Not so. The lawyers were not even approached.

[ruserious]

If you think there is no tax in Dubai, your'e dreaming
What are
Visa's
Import tax (on everything)
Booze shop tax
Extra school fees
Expats paying more for utilities
Wages not adjusted upwards over the last 10 years to match countries with a tax system.
Of course there is tax its just called something else

[Quod Boy]

:ok: A few points:_

If EK want to keep the money in town,then why dont Cathay keep all that money in HK??

Basings/offline basing make total sense,in many ways,but whether it will happen at EK,remains to be seen,I think the "money in Dubai" is a smokescreen,mast pilots send large amounts home,the day after pay day.

With an A340 stuck downroute,through sickness,or tech,and looking to A380,cancelling flights downroute(AKL?SYD?JFK?) will have major implications,for crew duty limits,and getting crew together.

Mr Knowles was opposed to commuters(why??),but the new system is proving so far to give decent spells of time off,and with him gone,several trainers,returning for better rosters,the number of existing commuters,is set to increase,not decrease.

To expound the problem,are issues such as lack of school places,and they dont happen overnight,housing could also be a problem.

I dont think basings are for everyone,but for EK to "offer" a basing,as an option,in your career,would be a real attraction to many prospective EK pilots.IMHO.

I for one will watch the coming months and years with interest.

QB

[halas]

EK have staff all over the world.

Res, airport-dispatch/managers, sales, engineers, admin, etc.....

To say they don't want basings because of local laws is utter cr@p.

halas

[druckmefunk]

Quod boy

A couple of subtle differences.

Hong Kong was an independent economy that was not ruled by one family. It was probably the most capitalist place on earth for a period. That is a far cry from Dubai where Emirates is a government owned company where the governments entire purpose is to grow the Dubai economy. Cathay was a publicly owned company (the swire portion anyway). Therefore its overiding mission was to return financial results to the owners.

Yes a lot of pilots send some money home. I dont think many send half of it home. Regardless, the other half stays here. Cabin crew send very little home, nearly all of their money stays here.

If you had basings, all of it would go out of the country. Dubai imports almost everything it consumes, so at the moment, the only thing that keeps the balance of payments in check is the oil exports. When the oil stops there will have to be increased measures to stop capital from flowing out of the country.


With an A340 stuck downroute,through sickness,or tech,and looking to A380,cancelling flights downroute(AKL?SYD?JFK?) will have major implications,for crew duty limits,and getting crew together.

Quite right, but why is that different to a 777 stuck in Hong Kong, Melbourne, Sydney, Auckland, Brisbane, Jo'burg or any other destination we operate to. In short it isn't. EK have been operating this way for years, willing to accept the risk. Statistics show that the gamble is paying off. When was the last time you heard of an aircraft being stuck down route because of crewing reasons?

I agree that basings would be an excellent addition to our package. But given the way our management thinks it would not surprise me to see them offered to DEC's rather than us.

I for one am not holding my breath.

dmf

[millerscourt]

dmf I am here in the wings awaiting a better DEC Package that includes an overseas basing!! However as someone has pointed out because EK salaries are tax free in Dubai the package would have to be in the currency where basing is and it would have to be increased hugely to allow for tax to be paid in country of abode. I am not therefore holding my breath as it would cost EK far more where as the Cathay and SQ overseas basings save them money by not paying education and accommodation allowances.

On busy rotes SQ always have a crew on standby but take a chance elsewhere that Flight Deck will not go sick at the last minute.

[druckmefunk]

millers

you are exactly right. It is something I didn't mention previously.

I figure it would be about cost neutral for EK. By the time they increased the salary to cope with taxation, it would roughly take out the savings made from education and accomodation.

So back to my original argument, why would they forgo all the money that pilots spend in Dubai for no significant saving.

The only reason is if they can't attact pilots (DEC's that is, F/O's will always come) or someone else offers a basing package that attracts large numbers away from EK.

dmf

[boofta]

Don't believe that Cathay kindly adjusted salaries to account for
the difference in tax for overseas basings.
In fact quite the opposite, they reduced the actual pay difference
by about 30% and made no allowance for local taxes at all.
So, the actual take home pay became approx 50% of that for
HKG based people.
Emirates could do the same if they were to base pilots, trouble
is after reducing salary to home country rates and applying local
taxes- you would'nt have enough left to feed a baby camel.
The single biggest incentive for Cathay to base people was to extract pilots out of the provident fund.
Emirates would not benefit from guys leaving their fund to the
same extent.
Basings would have to be at lower pay rates, for DEC's or whoever, otherwise the pilot body in Dubai would revolt.

[druckmefunk]

boofta

Some signigicant differences between Cathay and EK.

When Cathay introduced basings, everyone was on the A scale. That was back in the days when it was considered that you had to pay people a huge amount of money to live in HK. So they did. The trade off with basings was that you took a huge pay cut, but still earned a huge salary and got to live in your home country.

Many Cathay based people didn't have to pay tax in their country of domicile so in fact they laughing all the way to the bank.

EK on the other hand pay salaries that are well below industry standards and assume that we are all happy to accept them in order to live in "paradise". My salary converted to home country dollars is below that of a LoCo. If you then apply the tax factor, it is not an option. So EK would in fact have to increase basic salaries if they were to try and base people in countries with normal taxation rules. Some of my UK friends tell me that the after tax dollar at Easy or Ryanair is more than they are paid here!

BTW even after the turmoil at Cathay over the last decade, a Cathay F/O still earns more than an EK captain. And I would suggest that a Cathay Captain on a basing would still be earning significantly more, after tax, than and EK Captain in Dubai is earning.

So as you can see, it is not easy to compare the Cathay basings model to EK.


dmf

[propaganda]

It would appear unlikely the EK management would consider such a proposal at present. However, there are a number of real issues in DXB, which unless resolved will stop potential flight crew applying.... I'm not saying they are having problems recruiting..
The long term situation may well change their opinion.. time will tell.. :ok:

[Trust]

have a look at this one!

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/businessstorydisplay.cfm?storyID=3564949&thesection=business&thesubsection=transport&thesecondsubsection=aviation

:ok:

[propaganda]

I have heard recruitment in EK and other ME airlines has slowed to a trickle and a radical approach is now required...Bases in the US/CAN/UK/AUS/NZ on the radar.......Anyone have any info ?

[Vorsicht]

I have heard similar. I believe they are going to offer basings to DEC's, as that is the most efficient way.

The reasoning is that if they were to offer current pilots basings, they would have to replace them with a new joiner anyway and that is where the difficulty is, so DEC basings makes the job more attractive to anyone qualified, and basically fills the company requirements.

[Quod Boy]

V,mate,

Why not offer existing EK pilots basings if proposed?

Plenty waiting,would keep many currently looking elsewhere.

QB:cool:

[BUS343]

Very strong labour laws in all these countries. Would EK really be interested in basing someone in a place that actually has some teeth. From what I've read and heard from friends that work there, not likely.

[Shake]

I guess that overseas basing were inevitable but it will create even more problems for EK and prove very divisive. In any case it will not solve the fundamental issues back in Dubai.

EK have already discovered that they are not as attractive as they thought they were and pilots are not applying or arriving in the numbers needed to sustain todays schedules let alone those planned for the future.

At a time when they need as many pilots as they can train, they are losing pilots both through the front and back doors and it doesn't look as if the spectre of DECs with overseas basings will solve the problem, only add significantly to them.

They continue to do anything BUT look at the issues of pay and conditions. 8% didn't cut it and throwing CVs in our faces and telling that we are 'given' accomodation and other 'perks', which are actually necessities, doesn't work either.

Pilots are not coming because the pay fails to compete in the long haul-widebody sector regardless of what any 'in house' remuneration survey would have us believe. Pilots are leaving because the pay/conditions at EK have deteriorated when those elsewhere have improved.

Unfortunately EK have chosen to follow the road of Gulf Air and the writing is on the wall.

I am in the process of finding an overseas basing for myself and like many others it is not with EK.

[CRS]

So who is going to fly with these overseas based DEC's would we have overseas based DEFO's. Now those two combined would p*ss off nearly every current EK pilot.

Keep discovering (new ways to aggravate your workforce)


EK stop dicking around and increase the pay and conditions.

I know it will hurt your ego but go on!!!!!!

brgds

CRS

PS Good article in 7 days from the Economist magazine. Standard Chartered bank estimate inflation in Dubai as 8% last year. So the last pay rise wasn't a pay rise

[turtleneck]

let them try it, it will be a welcome waterloo for some managers. many airlines have tried it before. again EK might consider asking some DEC's about these experiences, but that would be shaking holy grail.

[BYMONEK]

For my 2 dirhams worth I just can't see it happening. What would happen if these pilots wanted to join a....dare I say the word.. union? And would their salary be increased by approx 40% to cover the tax they will have to pay,which, if so,would expose our pay as a reduced salary rather than a tax free salary. Would they have to e-mail a request to leave their country on days off......"ah,hello,i'm just driving over from England to Wales for the weekend,is that okay?" Private schooling,medical.......No.Too many problems I think.

But heh.....you just never Know!:hmm:

[fatbus]

What if it was a seperate company,like SIA cargo,we do it right now with Atlas(more or less)
Have not heard anything wrt the 310Frt maybe that is the offline basings being reffered to

[propaganda]

I guess O/S basings in EK might be an issue the management
would only consider if the situation in EK got desperate.

[nixisfix]

propangas,

it is desperate, believe me...

[Quod Boy]

Surely by signing an agreement,not to form a "U****",and operating under a seperate name(SIA Cargo,Atlas,CX cargo etc),there would be advantages ?

Cost base lower?Standby coverage downroute?Reduced housing?

Pilots not leaving,to go home?

The company is already divided,irreversibly with DEC programme so just another split on a voluntary basis is hardly controversial now.The airline is big and impersonal now.

Is it not better to have your own pilots in the company,utilising their EK experience living where they want to live rather than leave to another carrier?What a loss of experience.

I think it is viable,(as CX,SIA etc have done so),but whether EK see the advantages remains highly debatable.QB

[Chimbu chuckles]

A fairly well connected and knowledgeable birdy in Oz tells me the current recruiting drive in Australia is actually for Oz based tech crew.

Terms and Conditions that 'make Jetstar look good'.

When you think about what is going on in DXB with accomodation, traffic etc and with daily flights it actually makes sense from EK's perspective to start opening bases and hire locally on lower cost base...i.e no accom, utilities and get yourself to work.

Your thoughts guys?

[airbus757]

Won't happen.

7

[ruserious]

Won't happen, it makes no sense from EK's POV, as any wages will not get spent in the great Dubai money-go-round

[max AB]

Mate there is no one from EK who is in Oz and well connected....

[Chimbu chuckles]

I am amazed you think it so unlikely...with so many new aeroplanes arriving, daily flights to various Oz ports and seemingly having difficulty attracting 'suitable' applicants to the sandpit I would think employing aircrew on hugely reduced costs compared to DXB based pilots would be a really attractive idea to EK management.

But you guys know better, obviously.

[fatbus]

Take away the allowences and you are pretty close to Jet*, I think you are right wrt commuting rosters first then on a senority basis next for any (dream on ) basings

[halas]

Uplock-

That's AFTER_TAX salary you are quoting.

Roughly, gross income would be around AU$240,000

halas

[Gillegan]

If EK did completely reverse 20 years of basing pilots in Dubai, these would probably be offered in order of seniority.
I think it unlikely EK would offer overseas basings to new recruits.

I have no idea whether there is any truth to this rumour but EK has already shown itself very willing to ignore seniority if it is convenient for them.

[Charlie Murdoch]

Mr. Ed talking about trying to introduce basings in EK. (Yes, I know we've heard it all before.)

Coincides with the commercial boys talking about EK getting 4 services a day approved into three Australian capitals (presumably Melbourne, Sydney, Perth). I'm a little unsure how they are going to operate them, paticularly when HR are saying that pilot applications are down 50%.

[happydriver]

Bring it on I say.....
Went to the recruitment/info night earlier on this year and the question of oz basings was asked and was answered by a quite frank "NO"....

HD.

[Andu]

It'll never happen - it makes too much sense.

For those who think it will solve the recruiting problem; the only way it could do that was if they formed a separate company or employed 'based' pilots under a contract not made available to currently employed pilots - because no new hire would get a distant look-in if it was made available to all.

[Payscale]

Makes sense...make an OZ base and give them 10% more than J*

[Vorsicht]

Tell him he's dreamin'.

[mckaj]

Will never happen as long as TCAS is on top. Did not work in BA so it will not work in Emirates, So he said once.

[seniortrash]

Did not work in BA

Actually they worked very well for many years as AS would admit. They just became an (expensive) irrelevance after the introduction of the much more reliable 747-400, which coincided with a calming in the aviation industrial relations scene in Oz. The disruption of the 70s and 80s just stopped and so did the Sydney basings - which were only for 3 months at a time anyway.

To be a worthwhile proposition you would require cabin crew basings too, plus the support infrastructure plus standbys plus...............

[Quod Boy]

Raised with Mr Ed at my resig interview and also my leaving interview.

Categoric NO based on:-
1) Employmnet laws and unions exist in UK UK & Aust.EK will not entertain.2)"Profound" opposition down that "corridor" ie TCAS,AH,AAR.

Long term possibly,mediumterm ummm,short term no.

Heads buried very deep in the sand except Mr Ed who has his head in the clouds.

Cheers QB

[Keith Discovering]

Control, control and control. The thing that would be lost if basings happened. EK can't afford to have rogue pilots taking them to Court for 'not so legal' practices when they no longer come under the jurisdiction of the UAE. It's a minefield that won't be crossed for a long, long time. But the rumour of basings might keep those that are thinking of leaving around a bit longer. :E

[ernestkgann]

Sounds like a recruiting tool. It's not as if the bosses aren't aware that this might be a panacea to some of their recruiting probs. The recruiting lads have been giving a 'nudge and a wink' to the DEC fellows who ask when there will be basings. 'It'll happen for sure'. For sure.

[145qrh]

Sounds like a recruiting tool, nudge,nudge, wink, wink , no guarantees, but !!!!!

We used to have guys with integrity in recruitment,what happened.

It's almost a pity that the newbies don't realise that there are 1500 guys ahead of them in the queue for the mythical basing.....same as recruitment still promising, fingers crossed, that it's still 3 years to command...............................

I think that even with overseas basings not much would change with resignations...probably because at the end of the day you would still be working for EK.

Do we really think that EK would increase the salary scales for London, Paris, New York, etc, etc to cover the taxation issues, schooling, housing, medical, pension,,,and the list goes on...Ek is a low cost carrier in the cheapest sense imaginable.

I for one think that there is more chance of AAR munching down a bacon sandwich with a nice cold stubby at the next pilots meeting than there is of basings on a reasonable contract. So I for one wont be holding my breath.

[Scooter Rassmussin]

iF ek HASNT GOT THE BALLS TO TAKE RISKS BY PUTTING PILOTS IN BASES THEN IT WILL BE THEIR DOWNFALL, Smart airlines like CX are doing it and will suck EK dry if they are not careful.

[boeing-man]

That's not true. If you join CX, you would have to be a Second Officer all over again! Therefore CX is not a threat at all.

[ShockWave]

Not true, at all..
CX are offering DEC on 747 cargo with basings in Europe and expanding them over the next few years to include other bases, possibly OZ. Transfer to the pax fleet after 3 years is the rumour. That will definately hurt EK. 4000 Int heavy command req.:D

[bushbolox]

Shockwave,you must be mistaken THe chosen few?
Emirates pilots wont apply to be a DEC in another company surely.:eek:
How could they be a DEC in another company when there are F/o's ready for command? How could they be qualified to fly CX ops when there are people who know the cx sop so well, who have had commands before, what about the seniority and all the poor cx guys who were hired as S/O and now have to fly on the right to someone off the street who doesnt know CX or ..... etc etc... Any of this sound familiar to the usual EK flat earth society on these boards.Or the "Only Dubai dodgy arab, gulf specific, licence, holders have the skill levels to fly a 777 from the gulf" Hippocracy at its best.
:ugh:

[Scooter Rassmussin]

Well CX are going to offer bases for F/os on Pax fleet , thats better than staying in EK or QR as an f/o on the same money.

[ShockWave]

I have never had any difficulty with DECs, they are generally only recruited because there is a need for them. That is not to say that pilots wont bitch about it though. Hippocracy doesn't enter in to it. If a company has a need for experienced International Captains(any company) then why is there a problem. As far as CX cargo goes I think they are going to expand considerably over the next 7 years and have identified a shortfall in experience. Like most Asian carriers.
I haven't even applied so don't bitch at me!

[Relaxed Redback]

One question I have. How does the company expect to crew the proposed Australia -South America schedules .Since the 777 Aus pairings are 7 days + now . It will be interesting to see how this will be done. :confused:

[616200]

I have never had any difficulty with DECs, they are generally only recruited because there is a need for them. That is not to say that pilots wont bitch about it though. Hippocracy doesn't enter in to it. If a company has a need for experienced International Captains(any company) then why is there a problem.
Here is the problem:
They are getting DEC's that DON'T have any international experience,that DON'T even know how an HF work and that for the first 2-3 months will constantly rely on the F/O's experience. :{

[bushbolox]

Here is the problem:
They are getting DEC's that DON'T have any international experience,that DON'T even know how an HF work and that for the first 2-3 months will constantly rely on the F/O's experience. :{

I happen to know how a hf works and quite easily show other pilots to be confident in its use on oceanic routes in one lesson.Operating out of the gulf, using a hf, longhaul new sops etc etc are not disciplines exclusive to a dodgy dubai validation .Therefore identifying specific operational trivia over combined experinece is disengenious and belittles the true problem of your management taking the piss out of you, not the DEC. These arguments just highlight the collective chip and demonstrtae a nievete (?) of knowledge concerning the true stae of the industry.

Shockwave , it was the principle of double standards from the anti dec crowd that i was sniping at , not you personnaly

[616200]

I happen to know how a hf works and quite easily teach cadets to be confident in its use on oceanic routes in one lesson.
I'm glad you do.
And BTW I have no probs with DEC's but you would admit that the system is at least unfair when you can't justify hiring people with less international experience jumping ahead of the list:ugh:

[Scooter Rassmussin]

So what if EK make 15-20 day trips to go to Sth America, if you dont like it you can always leave , like me, best feeling ever,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[ShockWave]

Thankfully most of us are not employed for our spellen...
For those EK pilots who may be deemed to be anti DEC, Iwould hope that they are able to vent their anger at the people in Management that see the need for the program and not at the DECs. Each and every one of us has been trained and given time on the line during training and afterwards to consolidate our skills.(cadets, f/os, capt's, & DECs)
Pointing your finger at a DEC because he has not had the 3 years of route exposure you may have had is childish and unprofessional. You are here to do a job, do it! Work as a team and help the guy out if he needs it, and he will help you when you need it.
The vast majority of EK pilots are going to end up as DECs at some time in their careers, so spend some time thinking about how you might like to be treated in your next company by your work mates.

Sorry for getting off topic and on the soap box guys..
Think I'll go chill now....

[Payscale]

Well EK probably figured it takes a shorter time to teach a DEC to be an HF radio operator, than an FO to be a captain.

When I leave EK one day I will also be looking for a DEC job berfore an FO position....wouldnt you?

[bushbolox]

I can speel its my figres that cannt tipe.:eek:

[LHR Rain]

Don't ever defend DECs and their actions. Yes management is to blame but so are the DECs. No one forced the DECs to take the job or even apply.

[readytocopy]

Don't ever defend DECs and their actions. Yes management is to blame but so are the DECs. No one forced the DECs to take the job or even apply.
So you will not go anywhere as a Captain. So what you are saying is that you will be at EK forever if you are a captain or you will start all over again as an FO if you went somewhere else.:rolleyes:

Not to take their side. Just stiring the pot.

[kiwi_r4]

RTC,

I have learned from experience that it's best not to stir the pot because they get angry and then some threaten to ignore you. (Big deal by the way)

Best just to come straight out and tell it how it is. Nothing worse than fence sitters!

You LHR Rain come across like a big whinging kid and the next logical step for you is to call home collect and cry to mummy.

[readytocopy]

You are absolutely right.....so I will not stir the pot. I am an FO and one day I will be a Captain. But to say I will be here forever is also not true. I might one day like to go elsewhere and I'd like to go as a Captain. We work all our lives to go forward in our careers; from the right seat to the left. It is very hard to start again physcologically and from a pay perspective. So people who say they will never do it are probably the people who will do it first. I do not agree with it but that is how the world runs and one day you will find yourself doing the same thing you said you would never do.

[LHR Rain]

I find it strangely ironic that I am being labeled for something that I might or might not do in the future. I have not done anything wrong or unethical. It is the DECs and the company that have done a disservice to the indusrty. Get it straight boys!

[ShockWave]

Broakenenglish, I never expected to see that again!
I must have just been dumped on when I wrote it.
However, I wasn't griping at the DEcs , just the way EK had gone about it at that time and how it was going to effect us if things did not change.
Since then (I think)their conditions of employment have changed and ours as well. So I am not quite as bitter and twisted as I was then, thankfully, or I would probably have left by now. (or died)

I still just don't understand, why guys feel the need to get pissed off at DECs in general on a personal/professional basis. If you have a gripe about some one in particular fine.
If you feel that your career is being stuffed up by the company employing DECs then Get pissed at the company, as I was, and pointed out to me by broakenenglish above.:O

LHR rain: just how exactly are DECs to blame? Blame for what?
we can go back a little further and Blame, the idiot in Gulf air who couldn't fly an orbit at night or the F/O who could not take over!
They were to blame for the new requirements/ restrictions on upgrades, and while we're at it lets blame the guys who failed their upgrade transitions, which put a stop to that happening for a long time and now with heavy restrictions to try to prvent the same from happening. Or lets blame the guys who have had accidents and incidents within Ek lately and scared the !!!! out of everyone!
F-ckit lets blame all the guys that are yet to have their accidents as well

[readytocopy]

LHR, I half way agree....I don't blame the DECs at all, I blame the company. Like I said in one of my posting that we have made flying here a science and a nightmare in getting an upgrade here. There is only so many ways to fly an aircraft, lets not make it a harder than it is and upgrade the many qualified FO's here that are capable and let us not frett over the small stupid things they ask you in the interview. It is funny when you are a captain and having the big picture means something completely different as to when you are an FO trying to get an upgrade and trying to make a good impression on the people that are giving you the upgrade. You aren't a good pilot if you don't consider everything being an FO trying to get to the left seat, but being a captain it shows that you are prioritizing. Is there a solution, yes, upgrade all those that are entitled to it and that have been in the company for 3yrs and know the network. I think we are scared of our own shadow that something is bound to happen. As far as DECs go, nothing against them....but that is just me.

[Plank Cap]

It's that time again - seems like some very intense rumouring going on about EK management relenting on the overseas basing issue. Anyone care to confirm, deny or add to the latest (moderate) excitement?

[Vorsicht]

When Hell freezes over my boy.

What i have heard though is that due to the problems getting enough bums in seats, they are going back to the contract companies for DEC's, which should still be good for us because EK pilots make up the bulk of the names on their books.

I wouldn't mind betting that they offer some contract jobs via the contract companies jobs that include basings.

You have to look at it logically. If they offer us a basing, then they just have to recruit someone to take our spot, which they are unable to do. On the other hand, if they offer basings to new DEC's i reckon the would be deluged.



V

[dunerider]

I have also heard about the DEC's being offered bases and even worse we are moving to the airport hotel in BKK.:uhoh:

[L1011]

Vorsicht I reckon you are correct. Only possible faux-silver lining is that they (in their generosity) offer 10+ year skippers a 50% paycut to take a 'basing'.
Several advantages to the company for doing that. Best of all, assuming most guys refuse (ala' J*), they can turn around and offer it to DECs saying "I told you so, people love living in Dubai". Either way EK wins.:{

[MR8]

EK permanent basings are impossible!
If you will be based in a country, you will have to pay local taxes, and that's not only the employee, but also the employer has certain fiscal obligations to fullfill. Let's just think about social security, pension schemes etc etc... If you look at the EK books, it's quite easy to see where to company makes it's money compared to other airlines: cost of manpower. One of the main reasons EK makes a lot of profit, is because of the low cost of manpower. By opening up permanent basings, the routes flown by these people will suddenly be less profitable. Knowing EK, this will never happen.
What is a possible scenario? Temporary basings! EK could for example allow people to be based in London for 3 or 4 months. They will not pay for a hotel, but will give a financial bonus to people to find their own accomodation. It's a win-win situation. It will cost less to EK (otherwise they would have to put guys in an expensive hotel with daily allowances to be paid), plus EK will have standby people covering Europe (from London, it's quite easy to get you to any European destination and still be able to fly onward to Dubai with a split duty..) As for the crew: some guys who still have a house in the area would love to take the extra money (let's say half of what it would cost EK to pay hotel and allowances) and spend a few months flying from their real home.
That's how I would do it, but then again, little Alan probably has more relative brainmass (*) then I do...
MR8
(*) relative brainmass = size of brain / size of body

[jinglied]

EK Basings? IMO, never.

The relative cost for the company is an obvious issue for them. But I believe EK's biggest fear is the liability they will suffer with respect to labour laws of the country in which the basings are held. Can you imagine EK dealing with labour laws of a western, first world country?

Jinglie'd

[correamd11]

Well EK probably figured it takes a shorter time to teach a DEC to be an HF radio operator, than an FO to be a captain.
When I leave EK one day I will also be looking for a DEC job berfore an FO position....wouldnt you?
Payscale,
I strongly agree with your position. People don't really think that s*** can happen to them too and that someday they might be looking for a job as well.
The only thing that I cannot agree is: why a DEC makes only one LOFT and an F/O has to make 4 for his upgrade ?
Why the F/O has to make an FOM test and a DEC not ?

I am not against DEC at all, but having the same criteria would be nice...

Fly Safe !

[White Knight]

What a lot of you guys are forgetting is that EK already employs people in several other countries (airport staff, engineers, sales reps etc) and I'm sure they all fall under the labour laws of those countries........... So basing pilots wouldn't be any different from that point of view would it?