recruitment at cx [Archive]

ironbutt57

9th February 2002, 14:39

The ban is a bunch of scare-tactic crap,just like alpo during the 80's going 'round calling eastern pilots and continental pilots scabs, then admitting them into the union after all when the coffers needed replenishing...same story here, these union morons are trying to use the potential nw hires as pawns in their own games against management...but they sort of forget the newhires are also probable union supporters...or were..now it's doubtful..so once again the unions are snatching defeat from the jaws of victory so to speak...

fast cruiser

9th February 2002, 20:40

There is currently a holding pool at the moment for pilots that passed the selection process late last year and these guys are waiting on course dates at some stage this year when all the a/c are back in the sky etc.

The letter I received at Christmas basically said they did not know when courses would start.

I understand that there is'nt any more interviewing planned until the hold pool starts to reduce in due course.

Hope this helps

and guys give us a break regards the f**king recruitment ban, its getting boring now!!!!

BMM389EC

10th February 2002, 02:47

"until the hold pool starts to reduce in due course.". .Do you know something I don't Fast Cruiser?

ronnie123

10th February 2002, 11:23

Does CX accept all ATPLs for the SO program.. .Or does it have to be CASA or JAA.. .Will they say yes to ICAO ATPL.

TALUFTEN

10th February 2002, 19:49

Beenthere,. .ICAO Atpl is just fine as is an FAA and JAA. From what I've read about CX, the minimums used to be about 3500TT for S/O candidates prior to Sept11 and are now much, much higher.

james_780

11th February 2002, 05:20

thankyou,

ive had some mates get into cx with as little as around 1300 tt. is this possible. seems quite low to me?

despite the trouble cx is going through at the moment, i think its a great airline and hope things pick up there soon.

................

ronnie123

11th February 2002, 08:59

So true James, . .I got a reply from CX saying 1000+ total and ATPL writtens is all they want.. .Im working on my ATPL .

EMB Bras

11th February 2002, 10:19

In the past there certainly have been pilots that have been accepted into CX with around 1500hrs. I guess the key thing to remember is that the '1000hrs' that they state as their minimums are exactly that, only minimums. On average most guys have in excess of 3000hrs and Turboprop time.

With so many unemployed experienced drivers out there at the moment looking for jobs, I'd have to say CX will have some pretty experienced guys on file waiting for interviews etc when/if recruitment picks up again.

fast cruiser

11th February 2002, 17:58

BMM389EC

I have know idea when the hold pool will start to reduce hense (In Due Course), but as the market very slowly starts to pick up I dare say there will be a phone call from CX.

But as I said I do not know when this will be, so just have to play the waiting game.

cheers

FC

TALUFTEN

11th February 2002, 21:44

James and Beenthere,. .Yeah...go ahead and apply once you've got the 1000TT and ATPL writtens passed. Then submit your flight hours every 3 months or so to CX and in return you'll receive their acknowlegement in the form of a postcard(this info was obtained from this forum and I would recommend that you browse through the archives from before Sept11 to get a better idea of how things are done at CX). Hope it goes well and maybe you'll get lucky. But I don't know if luck is the right word given what's going on at CX right now.

ronnie123

12th February 2002, 09:15

I got a letter from CX telling me what excatly they wanted.. .1000tt. .ATPL writtens passed no restrictions.

Are all ATPL valid at CX.

ipanema

12th February 2002, 11:06

I'm over 10,000 multi hours, 7,000 turbine, submitted the CX application a while ago. No response at all yet.

I'm a union man to the bone, always have been, but the fact is that in the current employment climate it is very difficult for a union to keep both credibility and Members while holding a hard line against management.

My own union (a regional) had hard choices to make on a monthly basis, and has had that situation continuously for over a decade due to the airline's poor finances. But the Executive face the facts that inappropriate action on the pilots' part can close the airline for good and put them all out of work.

So when their backs are against the wall there may be brief industrial action - a sick out once a year, maybe, and a day-long strike if they are really pressed - but a hiring ban is not going to work in the long run and the union will eventually have to accept that.

Having removed a group of pilots, not even a western management would now save face by hiring them back. There must be a way for the union to extricate itself from the situation and for both parties to get on with business.

Obviously this is not a straighforward matter, but there is a solution to every problem and the fact is that closure of the airline is not going to happen. It is also pretty clear that the dismissed are not going to be taken back.

Any news on the hiring of someone for the new position of middle-man buffer between Management and Flight Crew??

[ 14 February 2002: Message edited by: ipanema ]

raitfaiter

12th February 2002, 12:34

Ipanema,you may have been misled by the rantings of 411a etc. The union is not the guilty party here. The only way for this dispute to end, or at least for some normality to return is for the management to either take one of the numerous outs offered to it by the HKAOA,or come up with some sort of face saving formula itself. The dispute has now reached the stage where only the lawyers (in the High Court in London) are winning. Most, if not all the 48 left would accept a properly constituted redundancy deal as indeed offered company wide a few months before this all started. For those thinking of joining the ban, and I accept we all have mouths tofeed and toys to buy.......wait until you are in a crewroom (as I have been), watching survivors of the Oz 89 dispute toasting each other due to news of one of the scabs spearing in in a lighty.....then you realise how long your name will be remembered! <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

Tonto Kowalski

12th February 2002, 12:53

Anyone know when the last guys to start actually started? When did they interview? Are these last guys onboard subject to the ban?

How about the hold pool...any idea of how many there are waiting to start when things return to some kind of normality? How long have people been in the hold?

Vince Brown

13th February 2002, 04:06

<img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="confused.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

DREAMERS DREAMERS DREAMERS…………

As If I am going to waste the last 10 years of hard work towards a career with a huge international airline , just because some bitter and twisted guys are trying to pull the company down……If you are that hell bent at getting back at the management from CX well YOU!! Stop flying , call sick and do what other games you do best to disrupt “the hand that feeds you”…….

Have a strike – get together hold hands and all have a cry……But don’t you dare even for a minute try and intimidate ME or any other guy who’s spent years in GA working towards a job of a life time….

The hiring of SO’s initially is to facilitate expansion and the acquisition of new aircraft and routes , which will happen soon in the near future…..

Yes the way in which the 49’ers were dealt with was rough but by all accounts that’s for you guys to sought out – so strike / don’t accept upgrades…. BUT YOU WILL NOT change the course of my life for your own bitter benefit , when the airline is still expanding and needs pilots.

I have numerous good mates all at CX – saying enough is enough with this crap and they are sick of contributing their money to support the cause and they are ready to accept an upgrade, They know the job is fantastic and speak highly of the company.

Ignore me on the flight deck – throw peanuts at me at the bar – call me a scab but and play your childish school boy games if you wish ………

WORK IT OUT ANOTHER WAY GUYS BUT DON’T STUFF OTHER PEOPLES LIVES AROUND – AND USE US AS PAWNS IN A BITTER BATTLE.

EMB Bras

13th February 2002, 04:39

Well said Vince!!

flyingkiwi

13th February 2002, 07:31

Vince, best speach yet on this forum!!!

411A

13th February 2002, 09:09

Why would the company CARE about the malcontent pilots....as they clearly do not care about the company? Another 49+ to go would be a good start....makes room for others who will give their efforts to achieve success.. .CX management WILL prevail...like it or not.

the looka

13th February 2002, 16:24

Dear 411A, Maybe if you spent your career at CX (couldn't get in old mate, pitty that) you could be calling yourself 441 and afford to fly the thing occasionaly instead of sitting on your fat ar$e contributing crap on a forum based 6000 miles plus from the hole that I doubt you crawl out of all that often. Why is the erosion of the CX package a good thing. I pushed GA heaps of **** around for to long and live to far from home to see any logic at all in your point of view. Get Stuffed.

wild lion

13th February 2002, 16:58

WELL DONE VINCE

yes well done vince and well said

These people are trying to discourage others from applying to CX. .they don't care about me one bit. .after all the hard work, just like us all have put in to get where we want to get, or where we are going in aviation.. .When i have to go to a friend's house to be feed. .bacause i have put all my money into aviation to get where i want to go.. .When these guys have had a lucrative and very attractive lifestyle not once have i had a knock at my door to come and help me. .and these are the people i am meant to luck up to

Also one must think that some people try and dissuade others so they can benifit from it themselves. .i.e. like reading pprune

many of times i have asked for help. .only for it to fall on deaf ears

Vince WELL SAID

CX my application will be sent shortly

had_enough

13th February 2002, 23:37

Ladies and Gentlemen,

So you think that nobody at CX put in as much time as you building hours etc. Nobody in CX worked to get here. Nobody at CX went without. You think that all of us are fat cats. You obviously think that 90+% of us are just out to lunch. I don't suppose you would consider that we were all onside, keen and happy in the past. I guess we all just woke up one morning and decided to take on CX management - just as a bit of sport to brighten up our dull lives.

Well come on in - you have no idea what you are getting yourselves into !!

But just bear in mind the figure 90+%, yes 90+% is what you will have to deal with. Oh, and don't forget your biggest problem - CX management

Looking forward to flying with you.

Standing by for the standard childish playground replies from the usual suspects.

411A

14th February 2002, 03:02

Actually lokka, we closed on a 441 just last week....and a nice aeroplane it is too...!. .The CX guys are on the bottom rung now, and really NOTHING they can do about it.. .Tough beans.... <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

Vince Brown

14th February 2002, 03:48

<img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="confused.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

Yet again another idle threat from “Lovely Morning”…….

Mr. Morning…..I and many other people do not think you are “fat cats” or that you just woke up with a big gripe ……We’ve all done the hard yards as I’m sure you well know.

My point is – Take it out against the management in what ever way you feel fit BUT DON’T expect other pilots not to take a “second officer position” …….as a second officer you don’t even get a seniorority number until you’ve made your upgrade…..

Employed As a second officer you are coming in BEHIND everyone and there for not a scab because we haven’t taken anyone’s job we are being recruited because of aircraft acquisition and expansion. Direct entry FO’s or Captains positions replacing the 49’ers would be another story.

Prior to Sep 11 Cathay wanted to DOUBLE its fleet size – meaning there was / will be jobs galore for the right candidate, even for the 49’ers.

So make waves or take action to help get your friends jobs back ASAP – but you cant tell me to turn my back on my dreams.

Sooner or later the whole thing will have to come to an end and I hope for some of the genuine guys they get their jobs back and get flying again.

You can still take action against the company in many various ways – enough peoples lives have already been ruined by this whole event – PLEASE DON’T TRY AND RUIN ANYONE ELSES……

VINCE

. . <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

had_enough

14th February 2002, 12:39

Vince, as I said before,looking forward to flying with you.

Obscurum per obscurius

14th February 2002, 14:59

Congratulations Lovely Morning, you have proven yourself to be highly unprofessional.. .In “looking forward to flying with Mr Brown” what exactly do hope to do once that chance arises, assuming you don’t get the bullet before then, which for the sake of the rest of us might not be a bad thing.

90%+ you say, don’t know where you get your figures from but they are completely inacurate. Considering recent resignations from the AOA and that most of the membership couldn’t really give a rats arse where or when a pilot arrived as long as they do a good job (its called being a professional).

Kindly keep your threats and “childish playground replies” to yourself; you make a mockery of Cathay pilots.

ronnie123

14th February 2002, 18:08

Oh James !

No one still seems to answer your question, which will be of great help to me as well.

contraxdog

14th February 2002, 20:47

I listen to all the whining and bitching with great wonder.I wonder if some of you forgot, that all you ever wanted to do was fly, anything that could fly. You guys seemed to be so involved about the politics that you seem to forget that somewhere out there,there is a young pilot that will live in his car to in order to fly. He will live on airline food day in and day out to fly. He is hungry, he will fly double the duty for half the fortune that you fly for. Remember no one forces you to fly for for CX you are always welcome to resign and try your luck somewhere else and make place for some poor bastard who really wants the job. Well said Mike Brown.

BlunderBus

14th February 2002, 21:08

Ah yes...but then suddenly he'll be 45 with a wife and kids and looking for a little return on all those 'wonder years'.....22 years service and sacked for 'no particular reason'.....how would YOU like that?

Jabewar

14th February 2002, 21:41

I'm not making any statement regarding the hiring ban. The following quote from a previous post nicely illustrates the root of some of our problems in this profession. Basically we love this job, and will compromise ourselves in ways others wouldn't to do it.

. ."You guys seemed to be so involved about the politics that you seem to forget that somewhere out there,there is a young pilot that will live in his car to in order to fly. He will live on airline food day in and day out to fly. He is hungry, he will fly double the duty for half the fortune that you fly for"

. .Realistically, therefore, the hiring ban will only be partially successful. Some will ignore it for various reasons and some will abide by it. Complete cooperation is impossible.

IMHO <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

cpdude

14th February 2002, 21:51

James,

Cathay is currently in a hiring freeze as I'm sure your aware of. They are hopeful that the economy will rebound this summer and hiring will once again commence. I suggest you submit your resume/cover letter and give updates every 2-3 months until you get a reply/application. You must be patient as it is very difficult to determine the future state of the economy.

Cathay itself is a good place to work and I consider it the "best contract job available". In comparison to other Asian or Middle East airlines it is far superior in salary, benefits and job security. Unfortunately, a small percentage of pilots believe it should be run like a North American airline with high salaries, great schedules and a strong union to support any and all pilot actions. Sounds great but it wouldn't work IMHO as the cultural environment would not allow it and a militant union would have a devastating affect on the future of the airline. Look at the trouble many North American airlines are in. United, American, Air Canada, they are suffering at the expense of harsh union contracts. Would you rather have a great salary for a short time or a good one for a long time?

For Blunderbus, "22 years service and sacked for 'no particular reason'" you don't really believe that do you? Never called in sick because you didn't want to fly? or make a decision to take action which will only hurt the company? I can't say all 49rs did but I understand many did. Some people have become so bitter that the only option is for them to go as well. Unfortunately they will not resign so they must get fired. Do you think this conduct would draw any other reaction at airlines like Emirates, China Airlines, Eva, Korean etc, etc?

I expect a couple of harsh reply's from some of these bitter people but the truth is most people enjoy it at Cathay. Yes we have problems but who doesn't! I say the best way to work them out is to talk not fight.

IMHO CPDUDE

cheesecake

14th February 2002, 22:44

Spot on there cpdude ... very well summed up.

If a ban is needed to stop the replacement of the 49ers, then it should be a ban on upgrades. How many 49ers were S/Os ?

But the upgrades are happening (already happenned?)? How many 49ers were S/Os? So how many 49er replacements has the ban prevented?

Mega hypocrisy if you ask me (which some people won't)

So, allow upgrades, but ban S/O recruitment. What does that achieve in a time when CX is heavily overcrewed?

Same as the AOA always achieves ... sweet F A.

had_enough

15th February 2002, 00:11

Obscurum per obscurius - jumping to many conclusions aren't you.

Many have joined with stars in their eyes with thoughts like fat cats, won't worry me etc. Then reality starts to bite.

Trying to get kids into school, arriving at dispatch to do a Taipei return (1.5 hours each way) to be told that you are going to LAX(14-15 hours flight). When you complain you are told, sorry I know the temperature here is 25C and in LAX it is 6C in rain, but haven't you read the new Vol 1 amendment (take clothes for every condition and for several days - takes care of the complaints received the last time). You could try looking for commonsense when you say, but that will mean that I'll have had no sleep for 30 or more hours when I land at LAX - you will be told it's legal. Then the killer blow, Oh, and did we mention you'll be coming straight back as a passenger on the same aircraft.

I could go on and on, but the new guys will find out for themselves. Then many of them, will be sitting in the cockpit bitching with the same aggression as everybody before them. Yes, in a childish sort of a way, I am looking forward to flying with them. I want to say, well you were told !

To the real pilots looking for a job who post in this forum, be careful as management are here in numbers.

[ 14 February 2002: Message edited by: Lovely Morning ]

cpdude

15th February 2002, 03:32

Lovely Morning,

I am not management nor do I condone some of their actions they have taken but I do resent the constant complaining I hear from several pilots. Get a life! Find something positive to talk about or don't talk at all.

Your one of PX travel LAX/HKG was probably First Class, which is not hard to take. I Base Traveled 45 1/2 hours last month and will travel 52 1/2 this month. This is not commuting but company rostered base travelling. I have 82 credit hours this month and like I said 52 1/2 (PX/PT). If we received the 1:1 base travel credit I would have over 108 hours this month.

I don't complain although I admit it's tough not to. If I did fall into the complaining trap I could easily become depressed and miserable as many of you have. Again, it's not easy but necessary for a happy life. If you can't handle it go home. Maybe an Expat job is not for you. I can assure you that this job is much easier than my last Expat job.

I’m not trying to cause controversy here I just wish people would grow up and be constructive rather than destructive.

frankg, if the new hires are scabs than the large number of pilots accepting upgrades are as well. You throw around the "scab" term every time you transfer the blame for your own inadequacies. You must be very young and have never seen a real picket line.

IMHO CPDUDE

[ 14 February 2002: Message edited by: cpdude ]

Kubota

15th February 2002, 04:48

"dude", I guess mediocrity is acceptable judging by your earlier comments. There is NOTHING WRONG in aspiring to a better, more efficient and less punitive roster. Although spoken in a somewhat different context, I cannot help but recall how Edmund Burke once said "All it takes for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing."

Our mangers (sic) NEED line crew feedback if anything is to be done to improve all our lot (PAX and frt). I would rather have a long career for a good salary, etc., but your flying about 50 hours without credit is not only immoral on their part, it's also stupid on yours. It's NOT ACCEPTABLE.

If you have been around as long as you profess, then you would know that this is not industry standard practice, but way, way below. It's not supposed to be the equivalent of a sweatshop. We are all well paid professionals who deserve better. YOU SHOULD KNOW THAT.

Propsrforboats

15th February 2002, 06:08

To the CX Managers:

I have 3500 hours, 1100 command turbine, muti crew time.

Stuff the ban, Hire me

VINCE, when I meet you at CX, I will be one of many to buy you a beer!!

cpdude

15th February 2002, 07:08

Kubota,

Feedback is good and as I said earlier, I would rather talk than fight. But, are the only options all or nothing? What ever happened to a compromise?

As for "but your flying about 50 hours without credit is not only immoral on their part, it's also stupid on yours. It's NOT ACCEPTABLE". What do you suggest I do? Phone in sick? Not a chance, I could never be so dishonest.

As for "industry standard" I ask who's standard? North America, I've covered that one earlier. Then Europe's or the Middle East because you certainly don't mean the standard in Asia because we are already well above standard on that front.

I'm not saying it's perfect but we’re trying to attract flies here with vinegar. These people do not react well to gorilla tactics and we don't have the law on our side. Get it?

IMHO CPDUDE. . :) :) :)

Vince Brown

15th February 2002, 09:00

Well “Propsrforboats” – if or when I get in Beers on me , it’s been my life long goal….

For the people who are that mentally disturbed that they have to sit at home on a PC and make Scab lists , you better turn to your own SO’s for their full names and contact details…………you wait and see , not just some but a lot of guys WILL take the upgrades BELIEVE ME…….

Even your own drinking buddies will , you’ll be surprised……people stay quiet and keep a low profile but they will accept the chance for an upgrade with open arms, because it’s their lively hood your dealing with.

Imagine how much of a tosser you’d feel like sitting in front of the fleet captain and the entourage after enjoying some nice..”tea and bickies” and then staring them in the eye and saying …..NO I DON’T WANT AN UPGRADE because of the treatment of the 49’ers. Very few will have the gall to go through with such a tall order. WAIT AND SEE.

So don’t just sit back and try to deter recruitment for outsiders applying for SO positions because even your own peers have had a gut full of the ongoing situation.

IF YOUR OWN PEERS ARE WILLING TO GO AHEAD AND TAKE UPGRADES – HOW THE HELL DO YOU EXPECT US NOT TO ACCEPT A POSITIONS AS AN SO???

No I am not management I’m a regional driver from OZ so stick that in your pipe and smoke it……..

There is no other Job that will provide YOU with the lifestyle , security , pay and progression that YOU can get through Cathay.

Some of you are obviously not cut out for the EXPAT LIFESTYLE , so get a base elsewhere and move home and take a chill pill.

How can I comment you say? Well I’ve lived in foreign countries myself and to be honest I had a blast of a time and have never looked back.

So like adult men and not school yard bullies – GET twenty of your finest Cathay Captains organise a meeting with management and find a COMPROMISE for this problem and resolve it.

The guys that were hardly done by for no undue reason should be given a second chance and the ones which have a “shady” past should be dealt with in the appropriate manner. END OF STORY.

I DON’T LIKE TO MAKE WAVES BUT IT’S TIME TO SAY WHAT EVERYONE ELSE IS THINKING…….

VINCE.. . . . <img src="frown.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="frown.gif" border="0">

Mark CRUISE

15th February 2002, 11:47

Id love to have a career with Cathay scab or no scab. So be it, it certainly beats flying crapy planes with crapy pay that is G.A. Sometimes you have to do whats best for yourself. I think that the lucky guys and gals that did it tough and made it into Cathay are not the ones that are miserable and complaining and bitching all the time. Think about it. Dont lose yourselves in the panoramic picture!!! I wish everyone in, and trying to get into Cathay all the best for the future. Its ashame that there are so many selfish and cold-hearted people in this world. . .You guys really have it made at Cathay. . . <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

cisco

15th February 2002, 12:37

This is becoming a " wannabe " section. Maybe most of you young grasshoppers that don't know their a** from page 4 should keep their obvious lack of knowledge and move on. Most of you don't sound like CX material or should I say the CX of old. Advice: wait for things to settle down and make an informed decision if you are lucky enough to have the opportunity. Beefing off with heresay and speculation is a waste of everyone's time. The ban is valid and ongoing despite the opposition. Be patient. I'm out.

kavu

16th February 2002, 02:38

With regard to upgrading and the ban I think that the ban effects new hires only. To be in a position to take an upgrade then take it.

The ban is a hiring ban not an upgrade ban as I recall. Take the upgrade and the company will soon be needing SO's, FO's.

Oh by the way - hope progress is made soon on the ban front, it's a tough situation to be in and I for one wouldn't want to confront it but maybe I will in the future. Anyway hope it works out for all parties concerned and please start the hiring again soon.

Liam Gallagher

16th February 2002, 13:50

Vince,

You can obviously see what none of us in CX can see. So help us with one thing;

Lets say you get your 20 Captains in a meeting with 'management' and it becomes obvious that 'management' are happy with the status quo. They like the idea that rostering practices, housing, medical, education benefits can be changed/deleted on their whim and with a pay review due in July all they need to know from your 20 Captains is how many guys/gals need to be fired before we all agree their new (reduced)pay structure.

What do you say we do then; bend over and take it?

No problem if we elect to bend over (we had it coming I hear you say), however do you think there is any possibility that managers of other airlines will not gain encouragement from the events in HKG (if they haven't already)?

Grateful for your views.

[ 16 February 2002: Message edited by: Liam Gallagher ]

Moon Unit

16th February 2002, 15:10

Liam

I understand that you are rightly distressed, by the attacks from the Management, on your terms and conditions, salaries and rosters. . .The sacking of the 49ers was a terrible blow for union men everywhere(BTW is there a list of names on the net).. .But sadly, the fact is, unless you are prepared to strike. Not sick-out, but picket-lines the lot, then nobody in the rest of the world will take you seriously.. .The company is prepared to play hard ball, but instead, the union talks about saftey and contract compliance. The company is able to follow its current line and the only people to lose out are the pilots.. .As for the Recruitment Ban, this would appear to be another own goal. People will take up CX jobs when things move on and live with the consequences. Those CX Pilots who are unable to live with this will become yesterdays men and as we have seen in politics before, become redundant as a voice for the entire workforce.. .Just out of interest, I contacted IFALPA recently. They new little of the Recruitment Ban, dodged making comments on its legitimacy and sounded distant on the whole matter, they quickly refering me to the AOA in HK. . .Do they know something you don't?

cpdude

16th February 2002, 21:37

The reason the HKAOA cannot find success is that they continue to alienate themselves by cutting out several different groups of potential supporters.

They refuse to let the ASL pilots join because they took their jobs away and are now considered "scabs" by many members. Many ASL pilots signed over to Cathay Freighters in Jan 2000 and gave up years of seniority among their own group to be with Cathay Pacific and they are still looked at as the black sheep. The newer Freighter pilots, although members of Cathay Pacific and on the same seniority list as all the other Cathay Pilots, are often referred to as ASL and not welcomed by many mainline pilots. And, now the new joiners have been called scabs.

I know many have left the HKAOA from the freighter division as they feel they are not supported or even welcomed by the other members. They could have almost 100% participation of the 1700+ workforce but because of their on going discrimination and favoritism they continue to lose members and blacklist others and probably have less than 60% representation at this time. It's a great little boys club for the Hong Kong based pilots but a credible union, I think not!

Of course this is IMHO. CPDUDE. . <img src="frown.gif" border="0"> <img src="frown.gif" border="0"> <img src="frown.gif" border="0">

ironbutt57

16th February 2002, 22:34

Sure looks that way from the outside cpdude, but remember that this behaviour has also been manifested at airline mergers in the states, when two union groups, or one union and non union group are merged....strange lot they are for sure...done lots of good for us pilots for sure over the years, but seems they could do a little better if they got a grasp of the whole pix before launching their crusades against management, and percieved threats from outside pilot groups, who just may be ready to support their cause...if given the chance to

recceguy

17th February 2002, 00:04

OK gentlemen..... .Those stories about . ."the ban or not the ban" . ."why the ban? . ."so the ban.. " . ."well the ban," . ."do you know that the ban.." . .have been on those topics for more than six months, ABSOLUTELY THE SAME - which means, if I read the inputs from yesterday 16 Feb and compare them with those of september, I will see no difference !

Couls you introduce something new please about your nice company and environment ?

cpdude

17th February 2002, 01:38

Hey Recceguy,

Just a quick review of your previous posts and with only 3 to your credit, you obviously have a real problem.

Here is one of your quotes. "so you get the answer: I don't care about any ban !!! I choose in life the people I obey to!"

Sounds like you’re the typical loner, hotshot anti-establishment type person that CRM courses were designed for. Not a chance you would get through a modern day interview with human resource people.

Just a little advice, learn to think about others and become part of a team.

<img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

Liam Gallagher

17th February 2002, 04:53

cpdude,

Recceguy is a wind-up merchant; don't fall for it.

The points you raise about the Freighter Fleet are often said. I however, don't hold a lot stock in those views. No one held a gun to our heads when we signed across to Veta; we knew the seniority we were "giving up". Guys forget or are unaware that the AOA has got further agreements from the company to ensure that freighter folks are not disadvantaged by being held back on the freighter. Whether or not the company can now be held to those agreements are another matter!

Turning to the issue of the ban, glad that someone has contacted IFALPA as it is their ban. It would seem that those concerned by ban should pressure IFALPA either directly, or through their present union, to have the ban either lifted or some form of closure drawn on the ban; coming on here and "whinging" and falling prey to the lurking wind-up merchants does little for your cause or future careers.

411A

17th February 2002, 15:45

Liam G. a short while ago, mentioned the "bend over and take it" routine....and if it was noticed by other airline managements.. .The short answer is...yes, and it has been going on with many carriers in the middle east for years...nothing new really.. .With the labor laws in HKG the way they are, the AOA guys have no other option....other than to move on to another employer.. .And, considering their many hardline attitudes...who would want them?

flyingkiwi

18th February 2002, 00:40

I too have also discussed this ban with IFALPA, they explained it is there from request by the AOA, and thier laws say they cannot question the request, so it is actually in the AOAs court to not be hypocrites and not to pass the blame to IFALPA as they are just carrying out orders.

The person i spoke to is very concerned by the situation and wants to call for an ammendment to the constitution allowing IFALPA to question the requests. I dont believe he is in a position to do too much, so all the guys reading this not liking the hypocricy of the AOA, give your local IFALPA a call and lets try to get them to start questioning the ethics of the AOA and how they are using us as cheap pawns. The majority of us trying to get into CX are fully paid ALPA members after all, so who is representing our side of the argument.

An example...I read some minutes from one of the AOA meetings and when John Findly was asked why dont the training captains just resign from there training positions he answered.... we cannot exepect them to make such a sacrifice...HYPOCRITE!!!!!

[ 17 February 2002: Message edited by: flyingkiwi ]

[ 17 February 2002: Message edited by: flyingkiwi ]

Liam Gallagher

18th February 2002, 14:37

Flyingkiwi,

Good effort in getting hold of IFALPA. If memory serves me correctly the guy you need to correspond with is one the Vice Presidents. I think his name is Capt.Dolan and he is in charge of Union activities. He visited HKG in early August.

The argument you and others lead regarding the dual standards of the AOA is compelling, however I feel you make a grave error in singling out the Training Staff. You may not be aware that CX has previously encountered the Training Staffs flexing their muscles. The company's response then and now would be to insist the trainer resigns from not only the Training Department, but the company. The company has also been shrewd enough to ensure that a suitable balance of numbers exists between AOA and non-AOA staff in this department. I believe you do a disservice to yoiur cause by pointing your finger at any one group, as your argument is surely that all members of IFALPA unions should not participate in the recruitment/upgrade program at CX; that way everyone makes a sacrifice and no individual takes a benefit. Conversely, if everyone is not prepared to make that sacrifice, then no one group should be forced to.

[ 18 February 2002: Message edited by: Liam Gallagher ]

recceguy

18th February 2002, 21:50

So the ban is still enforced ?

ironbutt57

19th February 2002, 02:38

In two words...pathetic hypocrites <img src="frown.gif" border="0">

flyingkiwi

19th February 2002, 07:33

Thanks for your reply Liam, its nice to get a resonable discussion going. So how do we get an across the board fair playing field for ALL ALPA members involved... any ideas?

and remember folks contact your nearest IFALPA rep and lets get this sorted instead of sitting here moaning about the injustice of it all.

flyingkiwi

19th February 2002, 08:47

Oh James, as we have hi-jacked your thread, to let you know when i had my interview I had 3500hrs, with 700 turbine command.

Good luck

Liam Gallagher

19th February 2002, 13:38

flyingkiwi,

I don't think aviation is a level playing field; it's more to do with right place-right time. I also think us pilots are being relegated from players on the field to waterboys on the bench! (but that's another topic)

However, if you want to jack your end of the playing field up a bit I would contact and then write to the aforementioned Vice-President of IFALPA and put forward your arguments. I would also copy the letter to your local union and hope they endorse it. At least that way, should you take a job with CX and subsequently leave, you may be able to get yourself sprung from a blacklist in your home country. (I stress the word may)

I note there is no ban on interviews so if you haven't had your interview in HKG yet, grab any interview opportunities and listen to the views of as many people as you can; particularly those putting forward ideas contrary to your own. Go home and mull it over and if you are offered a job I am sure you will know what to do.

However, what I would not do is place much stock in some of the info on this website as the situation in CX and HKG is not as reflected here.

Finally, before anyone posts; I have absolutely no idea as to recruiting and interview policies of CX and to infer anything from this post to the contrary would be a huge error.

Good Luck

pontius's pa

19th February 2002, 21:06

Flying Kiwi,

I confess to being out of date, as it was a few years ago, but guess what? The last time I had dealings with the local IFALPA rep. he was also a big geezer in the HKAOA.

Well meant advice to consult the local IFALPA rep, I have no doubt, but possibly not too fruitful.

An anecdote.

Many years ago, when Air Hong Kong was still independant of CX, AHK had its own union, and received a rather pompous invitation to affiliate with the HK AOA. One of the "privileges" of this affiliation was the responsibility to support, with industrial action, if so mandated, any action that the AOA might take against CX management.

When the AHK union (LDACA if I recall correctly) enquired if the AOA would similarly take industrial action in the event of an LDACA dispute with AHK management, no-one was surpised when the AOA indignantly replied that of course they could not jeopardise the careers of their memnbers by involving them in a dispute by which they were not directly affected.

Of course the players were different, and the AOA did not then have the benefit of the advice of a someone who, if rumours are correct, was the number two man of the leader of the most spectacularly unsuccessful industrial action ever undertaken in the UK, if not the world.

It is fashionable on this site, as on most FG sites, to put down the CX aspirants. How many times have you seen slurs implying that the poster of a message was bitter because clearly he was not as good as the CX pilot insulting him, or threatening him with a lifetime ban with any airline whose employees were in any way associated with IFALPA, if he dared to accept a job with CX in spite of the AOA ban?

I sat back for a moment and wondered why I bothered to make this long winded post.

I was lucky. The Queen trained me and it didn't cost me a penny. I even got paid. But I vaguely remember how as a youth how keen I was to be a pilot and was amazed when I made it. If you want something that much, you don't allow some supercillious ignorant bully to get in your way.

So to the job seekers, I say if you want a job with CX, and are offered it, take it.

recceguy

21st February 2002, 01:17

So there is a sort of a hiring ban at Cathay Pacific ?

AoB

21st February 2002, 10:59

Dont worry Recceguy, as they wont recruit until all aircraft are back in the air and by then lets hope bothsides have resolved their respective issues.

james_780

21st February 2002, 13:35

thanks for all that guys,

sounds like a lot of you need to head down to the wanchai district.......................

nothing can really be that bad?!?! no airline, and company for that fact is perfect. you take the good with the bad and get on with the job, which i think cx as a company does really well. i learnt a valuable lesson reasontly which is that a company will do what ever THEY WANT / NEED for their bottom line, nd their is not much anyone can do about it. you can either accept it move on..

i read a book a few yeare ago; Beyond Lion Rock. from that day on the only airline i wanted to fly for was cx. i had approach plates of the rwy13igs, and was, to say the least pissed off when they decommissioned that airfield, as im sure a lot of you were as well. would have given my left testicle, and still would, to shoot an approach in there in crap weather... magical. what a place to live in as well.

just hope that one day im given the opportunity to join the long and distinguised rank of cx.....

on a final note, i recently lost my job due to company being taken over. our pilots had long and protracted negotionations with management, and still are. and to what avail??? i left, and moved on... maybe not the best move given the current aviation climate but we cannot win against management.

wish you guys all the best with it and hope it sorts its self out soon.

regards.

ps have com 2 regularly tuned into the high level freqs and love to hear those cx position reports while im cruising 30 odd thousand feet below....

PlusHundred

21st February 2002, 13:51

http://www.ifalpa.org/images/lower_logo_v2.gif

IFALPA Recruitment Ban

The International Federation of Air Line Pilots Associations (IFALPA) has enacted a. .ban on recruitment into Cathay Pacific Airways Ltd., Veta Ltd. and USAB Ltd. on. .behalf of the member pilots of the Hong Kong Aircrew Officers Association (HKAOA).

The Recruitment Ban comes into effect for any pilot who accepts employment. .commencing on or after 9 th October 2001.

The recruitment ban has been enacted in response to Cathay Pacific management’s. .firing 53 pilots in July 2001. These pilots, with two exceptions, were terminated for no. .reason and they were denied the ability to appeal the decision through the. .contractual Disciplinary and Grievance procedure. The ban is to maximise the. .pressure to re-employ our pilots whilst the dispute continues. Recruitment of. .replacement pilots reduces the likelihood of a successful resolution to the dispute.

Until further notice the acceptance of a contract of employment as a pilot with any of. .the above-mentioned companies will result in that pilot having his name placed on a. .list to be compiled by the HKAOA. The list will be circulated to all Member. .Associations (MA) of IFALPA for information and any action that MA may deem. .required in accordance with its own constitution or resolutions.

Any pilot whose name is placed on this list will be ineligible to become a member of. .the HKAOA. Such ban will be for life. Furthermore, pilots who accept employment. .whilst the recruitment ban is in effect will be made unwelcome by the membership of. .the HKAOA.

The HKAOA will not provide support for a listed pilot in any circumstances whereby it. .would normally act on behalf of a pilot. This includes Accident and Incident. .investigations, Discipline and Grievance procedures, legal representation in foreign. .countries, etc.

ironbutt57

21st February 2002, 21:32

Looks like the folks ot the HKAOA...(hong-kong angry-old-assholes) are once again showing their ignorance

flyingkiwi

21st February 2002, 23:20

Plusonehundred, wake up and read this post before you speak, your post is about 8 months too late!!

GlueBall

21st February 2002, 23:37

<a href="http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/020221/dcth035_1.html" target="_blank">Appeal to Unided Nations over firing of 51 CX pilots</a> <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

recceguy

22nd February 2002, 00:43

Very smart !

United Nations have nothing more important to do nowadays.... so no doubt this matter will quickly be solved.

I heard there was a ban somewhere ?

backspace

22nd February 2002, 02:35

PlusHundred,

As you seem to have a handle on the HKAOA/IFALPA end of things, can you explain why the ban is only in place to stop recruitment and not for upgrades. Surely the 53 are a lost cause because members of the HKAOA have accepted upgrades and taken the positions of those unfortunate 53.

I would have thought that the only possible answer here would be to stop all movement/employment until the 53 were re-instated.

grand slam

22nd February 2002, 14:03

Frankg is caught on the horns of a moral dilemma, which self-interest prevents him from addressing. What is 'normal' or mandated to IFALPA is irrelevant. If a recruitment ban is morally justified, then so is an upgrade ban. The new recruit and the FO getting his command are taking advantage of the same set of circumstances. Frankg gives further insight, if any were needed, of the convoluted thinking of union activists when questions of morality are raised. Hiding behind concepts such as 'mandate' simply re-states the obvious; the Emperor has no clothes on.

grand slam

22nd February 2002, 14:07

grand slam

24th February 2002, 01:06

Thought you might be an FO. However, if you are not, disregard the reference to self-interest. That just leaves the moral dilemma facing the AOA and its acolytes.

Tarek Nor

24th February 2002, 22:17

A question

Do CX (or any of the airlines in the region) have expat Ops people. Having been made redundant again. .I'm looking for something new.

rgds

411A

25th February 2002, 06:38

Well then Tarek Nor, have AirAtlanta pi@@ed on your boots once again? <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

Tarek Nor

26th February 2002, 21:23

No 411A

I escaped from there over a year ago. :)

The company I have been working for have just. .changed hands, and most of the staff have been. .terminated. Aside from that I spend a fair . .amount of time in Asia and the Far East, and . .would be happy to make that a more permanent . .arrangement. Unless of course you'd like me to. .come and help with your L10's in the USA. <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

[ 26 February 2002: Message edited by: Tarek Nor ]

recceguy

1st March 2002, 01:03

I just read that the ban was going to be terminated, because of over-focusing the minds of the involved crew-members. . .So in order to enable them to speak about something else (anything, politics, sport, sex, wildife conservation in Northern Okavango) the whole idea of the recruitment ban was going to be discarded.

ipanema

1st March 2002, 07:58

frankg, my life experience tells me before long you will personally be severely disappointed by the actions of various Officers in trusted positions. When political expedience enters the scene (and the UN is a wholly political body) you will be surprised at what some people can be forced to do.

IMHO (with the emphasis on HUMBLE) the HKAOA has long been beating a dead horse and is straying some distance from today's reality - as are you. In today's job market the airline that employs you can - with some difficulty, I would admit - fire the lot of you and find replacements in no time flat, whether you like it or not. Cathay is known as a plum employer and I am sure qualified and current pilots would leave their present Sad Sack employers and jump the fence in the twinkling of an eye, ban or no ban, if it looked like permanent work.

You can only take any cause just so far. I would suggest that limit is approaching, however slowly/rapidly, and I would HUMBLY suggest that those who cherish their jobs at CX should take a serious look at how much they appreciate their careers in this time of severe pilot job shortages... once laid off from CX they then carry a red stamp on their forehead for future employers.

Perhaps it is time to revisit reality and either cut losses or make a deal, my friend.

And at the very least you might consider cutting back on the rhetoric against those who are entitled to express their own opinions on this forum - you are not in the hallowed halls of the HKAOA here.

[ 01 March 2002: Message edited by: ipanema ]

recceguy

1st March 2002, 18:53

Frankg and others...

Remember, you are not in USA or Australia or Canada, but in China, in case you have forgotten it.. .When all of you have been duely kicked out by your management and replaced by brasilian, argentinian, belgian and french pilots (and I forget the russians) it will be time for you to moan... and for the rest of the world to smile.

And please, don't label your contradictors so easily as "wannabees" or "management plants" (I know I'm not, but it belongs to me) it just shows up the intellectual weakness of your positions...