Corporate jets and JAA age 60 rule

[Bingo Bango Bongo]

There are rumors of ramp checks in Europe lately of N-reg corporate aircraft, and pilots over 60 being busted for breaking the JAA age 60 rule. Can anyone confirm this? Are pilots over the age of 60 allowed to operate a corporate jet into Europe?

Would anyone have a link to the relevant JAA document?

Many thanks,

bbb

[PorcoRosso]

Doesn't the Age 60 rule only apply to air carrier involved in public transport operations ?
Me thinks , a privatley operated business jet doesn't need to comply with that rule.
I may be wrong.

[Bingo Bango Bongo]

The rule apparently applies to all flights operated for remuneration or hire, which would by definition include business jets chartered by private individuals for the purposes of flying into the EU. No one seems to have a definitive answer on the subject, the ramp checks in question appear to have been conducted with uncertain knowledge, the outcome relying largely on the particular inspector's interpretation instead.

The rules also appear to vary considerably from country to country.

[AA717driver]

I've also heard of inspectors in certain countries(bon jour...) busting people for having a 2nd class FAA medical and acting as PIC of a jet.

This pissing contest has got to stop. Either go to war or leave us peons alone.TC

[V1 Rotate]

I hope that US authorities are fully aware of this so that French aircrews can benifit from the same treatment on a reciprocal basis.
V1:cool:

[Kopeloi]

Don't you worry. There is no french pilot flying commercially after they reach 60. Older than 60 pilots must be an unique american speciality....
nikolai:E

[Bingo Bango Bongo]

Would anyone have a link to the relevant French DGAC rule?

[AA717driver]

Kopeloi--The Europeans have yet to experience the wonders of "de-regulation" to its fullest extent.

We have "benefitted" from this to the point that we have lost our only source of income and pension(including health benefits) at or near the age of 60.

Maybe European pilots will one day share our experience. (For their sake, I hope not!)

[Chimbu chuckles]

Kopeloi in Australia there is no such thing as mandatory retirement for pilots, nor New Zealand, nor PNG. In Indonesia pilots can continue as PIC of part 121 to 63 and the only restriction for pilots of foriegn registered aircraft is that they comply with the country of registrations laws...hence a QF pilot could be 75 and still act as PIC of a part 121 flight between Australia and Jakarta...for instance.

More and more the mandatory retirement of pilots at age 60 is a uniquely EU thing.

[H.Finn]

As far as I know, France and Italy are just about the only countries in Europe where they don't allow pilots to fly beyond the age of 60. And I'm not even sure whether this is only limiting the commander, F/O being able to be above the age. Limiting age for commercial operations is now 65 in most European countries, I believe. In our company (bizjets, JAR-OPS 1 AOC) we have at least two pilots over 60, both being only limited for flights to the said countries. Also, no two pilots over the age of 60 may crew an aeroplane together.

[Bingo Bango Bongo]

So as I understand it, despite the JAA rules, France and Italy still apply their own? When are they planning to adopt the wider JAA policies?

Your over 60 pilots, Finn, do you list them as SIC on flights to those countries, or do you not even send them?

[H.Finn]

As I do not fly on the same aircraft type as these elder airmen, I am not sure if they fly to France or Italy at all (or over these countries), or as SIC. Maybe someone else knows the rules and regulations better. My belief is that as long as the operation is not public transport there should be no limitations, but again I may be wrong. If this is the case, flying N-registered aircraft on Part 91 should be no problem, whatever the age of the pilots.

[Chisum]

Not only does the EU have restrictions on commercial flight with PIC over the age of 60. In some countries there is not part 121, 91 etc. It only has private or commercial flying. Some of these countries limit the age of the PIC in commercial operations to 60 (or 63). So you need to ask if your flight is commercial in nature, then apply the rule.

Also some countries don't publish an age 60 requirement. They refer to ICAO and adopt there advise as rule.

Always pays to check the AIP for that country if in doubt.

All of this seems stupid. How does a birthday limit the ability of that Pilot? One day at 59 years performing well and the next day at age 60 he is not fit to fly in commercial operations??

[Kopeloi]

There is also some states that do not issue a commercial licence for pilot over 60. At least Bahrain and maybe some other arab states also.
As far as I know, this limitation is for PIC only in France and Italy. Private part 91 should have no restrictions. Such limitation most probably initiating from they strong pilot unions.
Nikolai

[redbar1]

BBB,

The JAR reference you requested in your initial posting is JAR-FCL 1, Section 1, Subart A, item 1.060. JARs section 1 can be found here (http://www.jaa.nl/section1/jarsec1.html)

As you will see, this limitation applies to commercial air transportat operations only. It is, however, correct that a few JAA member states have stricter rules, and that pilots, on ramp checks in at least one country, have been 'asked' to leave the crew and pax home. C'est une malade!

cheers,
redbar1

[Bingo Bango Bongo]

Many thanks redbar1, found the reference in JAR-FCL 1.060, pg. 1-A-8.

Looks OK for 60+ (SIC only) in JAA states, except for Czech Republic, France and Italy.

[H.Finn]

As I read it, there is no limitation on private operations (JAR OPS 1 regulates only commercial operations anyway). As for commercial operations, the limit is 65 years, except for France and Italy, where it is 60 years, and Czech where it is 62. For single pilot ops, the limit is 60 in all JAA countries. In a two-pilot crew, one of the pilots must be under 60 in any case.
In the case of the Czech republic it only concerns pilots with Czech licences.

[mutt]

Suggest that you look at ICAO Annex 1. France and a few other countries have filed an exemption to limit the age to 60.

In the same fashion, FAA doesnt require the FO to be type rated, ICAO does!

You will have a wonderful time trying to explain the finer points of these rules to any European ramp inspector.

Cheers.

Mutt.

[Bingo Bango Bongo]

In which country, mutt, do ramp inspections occur most often?

[mutt]

Cant say that these are the worst, but we have had problems in Germany and France.


Mutt.

[Bingo Bango Bongo]

The country of France is a recurring theme in this thread, I now consider myself as having been given fair warning. Anyone know what the financial and operational costs are for an unsatisfactory inspection? (Not that I would even consider crewing an airplane with geezers on a flight there, just curious.) Many thanks.

bbb

[pilotfa90]

i'm flying around europe with a captain who is over sixty.Has anybody been ramp checked in france or italy ? if so,what happened ?

[PorcoRosso]

BBB, Why don't you directly ask to the DGAC (French Civil Aviation ? )

I would tipically ask a couple of Yes or No question like :

-Does the 60 years Old rule apply to a professionnal pilot involved in private operations ?

-Is my job considered Private transportation (give a SHORT description, keep it simple, ) ?

Then, try to get a fax or a letter, with a name & signature and Keep it with your licence.


here (http://www.aviation-civile.gouv.fr/)


If some of you are interested, I will try to speak directly with the licensing personnel (in French ) and sort out the case precisely for non-airline pilots

If you have a more specific question, send me a PM, I will translate it for you to the authorities (They don't speak english there
:mad: )

Cheers