Are EK manuals on CD practical? aka EK's new SEZ operation.

[Shake]

I love trees as much as anyone else, but have we gone too far by putting docs like the FOM & FCOM on CD?

The pros may be a large reduction in printing and paper costs but that is just indicative of all the changes that are constantly being made.

The cons: The CDs are very hard to use for reference when revising for PPCs etc. You need access to a computor...lap top preferrably. You can't use colourful 'Post Its' to ear mark the important bits (clogs up the computor drive if used on CD).

The pros: At least now I have at least 10 CDs covers from past updates, retractions & re-issue...but still use the hardcopy manuals anyway.

Pain that it is to do any amendments, at least it gives us a chance to look at any changes...even if it is just twice a year to clear the pile prior to PPC.

Just wanted others thoughts on the subject as most I have spoken with think the move towards CDs is impractical and we should stick with the paper copies of the FOM & FCOM at least.

[sluggums]

Have spoken a a lot of Captains and FO's about this and everyone agrees that it is not a good idea.

[Cerberus]

Not everyone! Its the implementation of the CD that is the snag. If it were easy to Id the changes then it would work fine. Beats the heck out of amending the books all the time. If you are multi-fleet flying you are doing so many amendments that you don't have time to read the book itself. At least when I look at the CD at home I am certain that it is within a month of current

Last PPC, I made notes from the LPC (rather than using sticky bits of paper). And used the aircraft updated docs, never work at home when you can work at work. Then used my lap top for reference on the course.

Rather than changing the technology, I'd change the system whereby currently an amendment can be amended by an amendment before the second amendment is amended by the first. It would be nice though, as we are now becoming a web based company, if the company actually provided a lap top, a la South West.

Ludites of the world unite:sad:

Cerberus

[BigGeordie]

I think Cerberus has the right idea but as I don't have a laptop it does make preparation for PPCs a bit of a pain- I used to go through FCOMs in hotel rooms downroute when I got sick of CNN. If the company is going to give us documentation on CD it should give us the means to read it! How do other airlines manage?

[Shake]

It just seems that there will be problems with the way it is being implimented especially as there are no highlights currently accompanying each CD.

I agree that with a multi a/c fleet we probably need to streamline the amendment process, but with so many changes issued so frequently we risk losing the salient info we need on the line, especially as many of us will have restricted access to the docs without a lap-top.

I would still prefer a hard copy of the FOM & FCOM Vol1 at the very least.

We have already had a costly farce with the new CFPs which were imposed rather than introduced. With a little thought and perhaps a trial run, the format could have been changed to a more practical one and saved time and money in the process. Are we to witness yet another backtrack over this current paperless policy?

Why are we, the end users, never consulted? Please get out of the IT office and talk with the guys who have to use this stuff.

[White Knight]

Hard copies required, all this techno mumbo jumbo and I haven't got a laptop.......C'mon managers, give us all laptops so we at least use the CD's downroute for when we're bored of Jap telly!!

[desert_knight]

Why not go out and BUY a Laptop instead of watching Jap telly!!?

:p

[Ghostflyer]

Whats wrong with Jap Telly? They had that Monkey show and Enduro.......Classics of their type. Beats risking the sushi menu.

[Yossarian]

If we are not to get hard copies, then we have to be given a laptop. Surely?

[halas]

Cerberus

At least when I look at the CD at home I am certain that it is within a month of current

Yeah, just like he last one where they forgot to put the latest FOM amendment in!

It's only good point and even that feature gets screwed up!

halas

[Cerberus]

Halas,

Its more chance of being current, even if its not on the CD for a week, than it has when it sits on the table in my spare room for 4 months. By the way, weren't the CDs were issued 2 days apart; once the mistake had been spotted? Thats a pretty quick correction.

I accept that hard copy or soft they are no use unless you get to read them. However, in my view it is easier to find current info from the CD, than carry out paper ammendment 2,023,429 of the month on fleet number 3.

Cerberus

[skyslave]

The problem with this system is that you have to go through the whole cd, (which is bigger than my library) and find the changes on specific pages (Up to 100 scattered all over the place). I have never looked at the whole thing, as it is just a way for the airline to meet the requirements with complete disrigard for actual compliance.
The best thing they could do would be to issue CDs with ammendements, or include an ammendment section on the CD, then we could read the actual things they want us to read....

[145qrh]

Why does no one suggest to flight ops that they put a section in for the updates, or is it just easier to whinge about it on PPrune.

:cool:

PS .I am not too keen on CD only but at least it saves a 6" pile of amendments sitting on the coffee table until the maid files them for me .


New A330 route---- DXB-SEZ ,EK705/6..from 1/1/05

Is it official yet...

[skyslave]

145qrh, what a great idea, why don't you suggest that to someone, see what reply you get. Besides, the point being, that if one is to implement such procedures, a working group should have identified potential shortfalls, and memos for suggestions should have gone out asking us about what we think.
But hey it is more important to contribute about the airbus seat and its comfort levels, than realy important issues....

[picu]

DXB - SEZ next year? Bet it's a night turnaround............

Can't say I like the CD to study from - tried it once and gave up. Bit worrying to keep in touch with amendments, unless they put them in a seperate section, or even better, e-mail them to us in the portal so we wouldn't have to use the CD at all !!!!
Will stick to studying during cruise from the aircraft copies. Anyway Desert knight suggests that flight deck cameras are a good idea (see other thread) so it would please big bruvver........

On a final note, not having to amend the manuals in the future will be a great bonus.

[145qrh]

EK 705 DEP DXB 0230 ARR SEZ 0710 Flight time: 4h 40mins
EK 706 DEP SEZ 0840 ARR DXB 1310 Flight time: 4h 30mins

Days of operation: Tue, Sat, Sun

Looks like a night turnaround !!

Let me think Cok or Sez, not much of a choice is there????

Now lets see ,, a working group before any changes , it might just work.........if you had a union !!!

I cant study from CD so at least it;s something to do during the cruise after the crossword.

[bus canuck]

I vote for less paper, sorry. I understand why some guys don't like the CDs, but once you start using it/them, you get better at it.

Rememeber, it's for 'reference' - it's not reading material. In that regard, using the search feature makes looking up items much easier than in a book.

Just MHO...

[Shake]

The question I suppose isn't about the concept but the implimentation. There has been no consultation and perhaps if there was we could prevent any unecessary problems for us all.

[woftam]

Out of interest guys,what format are the CD's in? PDF?
Cheers

[4HolerPoler]

Yes, PDF. As the guys say, difficult to move around in. Still, beats the piles of paper IMHO.

4HP

[woftam]

Thanks 4HolerPoler.
Yes,from my limited exposure to this format for Ops manuals on CD it is far from ideal.
As you say though it sure beats all those amendments!!
:(
Cheers.

[dooner]

Just my 2 cents worth, having spent the better part of the last 4 months using these things to prepare for the Upgrade I wish there was a good "search engine" for lack of a better phrase.

I gave up trying to keep the manuals for all 3 aircraft up-to-date and now rely on the CD. It has been very handy sitting in down-line hotels but it is frustrating at times looking for something when you need the answer quickly.

The VACBI CD's are useless do to the lack of info and having to listen to that audio:mad:

I believe they are "a step in the right direction" I just wish you could navigate a wee bit quicker from one section to another.

Anyone familiar with how Companies like Jet Blue, who are "paper-less" deal with this issue.

Dooner :confused:

[4HolerPoler]

JetBlue have a great system; each pilot is issued with a laptop and it has all of the FCOM's & a whole bunch of other documents loaded on the hard-drive. From what I've seen it's not PDF format & a lot easier to move around in. They do all their weight & balance calculations on the PC, the Ops Manual is there; in fact the only thing JetBlue doesn't have on the laptop is their Jeppesen's and that's only because (I'm told) the Fed's have an issue with it.

Can we say congrats on the upgrade yet dooner, or are you still in the mill?

4HP

[dooner]

Into the meat grinder (aka the sim) on Friday morning!

Dooner :uhoh:

Good luck bubba - keep us posted 4HP :ok: