Emirates... or not?

[FreeSpeed]

All comments welcome, I'm a captain with about 7000hrs operating for a LFC in europe, with an offer to join Emirates. Is it worth the jump back to the right seat or not.

[helen-damnation]

Freespeed,

All depends how long you are prepared to wait for the LHS again.
Joining now you will have to do the min 3 years (on todays plan) plus any longer depending on further expansion. Some think that those joining now will have to wait about 5 years but it's anyones guess.
Just my humble opinion.

Good luck.

H-D

[FreeSpeed]

Thanks for that H-D, how about the rest of the terms and conditions? how is the morale? I know that no company is perfect but in general are most people happy? Something I'll have to get used to is time away from base, do days off compensate for this?

[Shake]

This will not be a balanced opinion, just mine:

I had similar hours to you and left a good airline to come to EK.
If I knew then what I know now I would have never had come anywhere near the place. I was guilty of seeing what I wanted to see and not what was actually there, fuelled by the slick PR & recruitment process.

Since I've joined the T & Cs have been changed to the detriment of F/Os in favour of DECs: they can do anything without the threat of recourse. The training system is a mess. Pay has stood virtually still while the $s slide has meant a net drop in pay of nearly 25%...despite what they call 'exchange rate protection' which doesn't come close to protecting the shortfall. We fly more hours (majority at night) and are away from base longer (allowances are poor and are calculated with discounts provided from hotels taken out before you get them).

Professional satisfaction has been replaced with professional frustration as there is little or no respect or trust between the management and flight deck crews which in turn has led to very low morale generally.

With your hours and experience I would personally suggest that if you are intent on coming to the region you consider Etihad. They are the start-up 'national carrier' and have billions behind them backed by the UAEs President. You would have higher relative seniority and hence a command opportunity should come quicker. Their pay is better, 30% if rumours are to be believed, and the management seem a great deal more able than the ones we've had to deal with recently. You could still live in Dubai if you so wish but it is a building site at the moment with a great deal of strain on resources such as schools and accomodation.

It is a hard decision to make but there is a great deal more info available than there was when I jumped...and remember when you jump it is extremely difficult to climb back. Once you ship your life down here it will cost a lot to reverse the process so do your homework well.

At the end of the day it is all relative. To many the job at EK is a great deal better than they had elsewhere. There are other opportunities here also where some are making a living away from the company with other businesses and have never had it so good but they only serve to distort the picture when you only consider EK as a career in isolation.

From a purely personal, European & flying career perspective though I believe that this was a bad move.

Good luck with any decision you make.

[Cerberus]

They pay better, 30% if rumours are to be believed, and the management seem a great deal more able than the ones we've had to deal with recently.

Shake, how do you know what their management is like? You can't even find out what Etihad's package is officially. Its all rumour. EK have had their recent difficulties as they have transitioned from a small to medium sized outfit. Etihad will go through the same crap down the line.

I would agree with you though that Etihad might well be a good place to go to because you will go in at the top of the seniority list and they obviously have ambitious plans with the financial muscle to back it up. Question is then whether or not Abu Dhabi is for you, I live 100 miles from it and don't feel the urge to go there very much.

I am generally happy at EK, its not perfect but beats a lot of other places to go. As to the changes in T&Cs and morale, there is no doubt that AAR has screwed a good company by his misguided management practices. But if you read about AAB at Qatar; who is to say Etihad will be any better.

Just food for thought!

Freespeed, I am sure you have seen what has been written on the web. All I would say is look at all the info provided dispassionately and weigh up whether or not you think you will be better off. I will guarantee that EK did not 'promise' a certain time to command to anyone; but some guys will still have pencilled in their command date before joining. I think some joined with unreasonable expectations, some of it company generated but a lot of it self generated. One plus for me is that I can go and have a cold one in the sunshine and bitch about it rather than sitting in the pouring rain before disappearing into a 200' cloudbase for the rest of the day.

Good luck.

Cerberus:uhoh:

[Shake]

Fair points C, but with better management Etihad could well avoid the unnecessary crap you mention.

Mine was openly -ve as is my view of EK from the inside...wish is wasn't.

[DIsco FEver]

Well said Shake, I agree with everything you have said, I would not advise a friend to come here, an enemy maybe, but that would be nasty!!!

I never thought I would miss the company I left in the UK, but hey you live and learn.

I never thought I would hate night flying so much, every duty this month has finished in Dubai between 5.30am and 6.30am, so far I have not had more than 3 hours continuous sleep in the last week.

Allowances downroute--EK avail themselves of Airline discount before we see the money, I think they have misunderstood the term Airline discount!! :D

Almost every layover I have done I have had to use my own money to subsidise EK, and no it's not always the bar-bill, chance would be a fine thing.
:O


If i could return to my old job , I would jump at it ,both feet first,but T's and C's there have changed for new starts. Such is life.


So freespeed if you want to feel trapped , I am stuck here because of the bond, and the bond is in US so even that is more than I budgeted for.
You will also sit in the right hand seat until they run out of DEC's .

The DEC guys I have flown with are a breath of fresh air, experienced, competent and not yet sucked into to the EK way.

If you have had a command for any lenght of time you will probably hate sitting sitting in the RHS for any length of time.

Only little things but it will get to you, it gets to me, and I am usually a tolerant sort of guy, well some of the time , well OK not very often......

If I knew then what I know now, I would have joined Easyjet.

Before you make any life changing decision take of your Rose tinted RayBans, I wish I had...........

Some of the Ek posters on PRune have an agenda, so it can be hard to work out what is what.Some of the things here are OK,Dubai is a nice place to live ,it's just that some of our guys confuse that with EK being a great company , not the same thing. London is a nice place to live, that does'nt make Ryanair a good company just because they base you there.!!!!



Memo to me --- steam vented and relax.
:zzz: :zzz: :zzz: :{ :{

[porkandbrew]

That's where EK is going. We are trapped in DXB during the steaming hot summer because the Managers ( that are away on leave) have miscalculated the required number of crews, alternatively did not manage to recruit any due to the extremely poor package that is on offer.
Any wannabe must consider that we are not allowed to leave base on days off ( if you have more than 2 consecutive) without asking permission from fleet management... Pretty hard to believe isn't it? I have been in EK between 8 and 10 years, and morale has never been worse, every F/O I fly with tend to complain from start to finish.Especially the ones that have to use up savings to pay the bills are worried and regretful about their move to the airline that calls itself "The Finest in the Sky"... Even the local dudes are unhappy with the company and the clown that was sent from engineering to "manage" the pilots.
Stay away from EK, it is run in a very unprofessional way and the financial package is totally inadequate.
Stay in Europe!
Regards,
Porkandbrew:\

[yardman]

Freespeed,

I'm an F/O and have been at EK for just under a year. I worked for a couple of major carriers in the west before coming here. I'm not rich, but I'm quite happy. The night flying isn't too bad either. I usually do about three or four of them per month. I have quite a bit of time off at home with the family, and Dubai isn't really that bad a place to live. Apart from the hot summers, it's very nice indeed.

I have no doubt that these guys have given you their honest opinion, as have I. It just boils down to your personal circumstances in the end. As for time to command. The last plan was for 133 aircraft by 2012. Now I hear it's up to 160+ in the same time frame. In other words, I wouldn't worry about it too much.

Good luck in your decision whichever way you decide to go.

Yard

[Cap 56]

Freespeed

It is really very simple.

If you expect that in EK, the management is able to have a balanced vieuwpoint on anything, then you are mistaken.

They only look at one side of the coin. Now, I know that the perfect airline does not exist and that we all have to add some water to the wine from time to time but at EK that stage does not even exist.

EK is a can full of worms and you only find out when it is too late.

In the Middle East a pilot is no more or no less than an Indian who cleans the toilets. Therefore, do not get trapped by your own ego in thinking that when EK makes you an offer you are part of some kind of elite because you are not.

I you believe that EK is in any way differant from the other carriers in the Middle East then you are having an illusion.

After 15 years you will not have any more money and you will have aged 25 years from the night flying.

Sure it\'s fun to fly one of their A 330,340, 380, B 777 but after a while it\'s less fun than european short haul, that\'s were the real flying is and it\'s very rewording unless you want to show off with another rating. The price you pay for that is however very high.

Those that are happy at EK do so because they have no other alternative and consequantely have to twist their minds to avoid depression.

On top of that, Dunbai is a very artificial enviroment and if your children grow up in such an area the will eventually pay a price for that.

In short, EK is an aquarium full of sharks and Dubai the biggest brothel in the Middle East.

Shake is right, do not be selfish, do yourself and your children a favour, listen to him.

Life is more than flying alone. I know the way they present themselves it\'s tempting but so is the devil.

The DEC offer may look reasonable, but in the end your fellow pilots blocked in the right seat wil hate you for it .

Trainers and examiners will find a way to humiliate you in favour of their long term friends in the right seat or simply out of personal jealousy and boredom.

They like wild stories in EK and will invent some to kill the day.

[Bo Jingly]

For those considering EK, I'd suggest you wait for the return of our illustrious leader from his leave at the end of this month. :uhoh:
I think T&C's are about to change 'again'. As to what, I really don't know; but when has it ever been in favour of the pilots? :hmm:

[Cap 56]

Latest rumour is that EK will start using contracters.

One year contract basic pay, no frills.

[DIsco FEver]

YardMan..


198 for 4. Chasing 568 all out!!!

ouch!:) :) :)

Its not over, but hey good so far.

[Mice]

God,
depressing isnt it!

If you reckon your lot is bad, then you want to be on the technical side with Mudguard Airlines.

They produce so much B/s and self promotion about themselves that they now firmly believe they are invincible.

I wory that another Gulf Air is firmly in the making.

[yardman]

DIsco FEver
:* :mad: :(

[AVIATOR757]

They say that if you remove the whinning factor from Emirates , its probably one of the best on this globe . Hey if an its all that bad I don't see too many people towards the out gate. Given the scenario that Emirates is in, may require a chapter 11 in the west and in the toilet that the indian cleans(To put it in a profound manner as mentioned earlier). Ofcourse you are bound to have problems when your expansion is exponential. O.K I MAY HAVE TICKED A FEW WHINNERS, and I apologize if anyone feels that way, but I am only trying to put things in persective, and its purely my opinion. Can you imagine an Airline anywhere with 45
A380's anywhere?. And I dont mean Baby Boeings. I am really glad that mess here is better than what is out there. Give it time and instead of 250 awards it may win 500. Go on Shoot at me.
:=
Cheers
A757:ok:

[thegypsy]

Just returned from the 2004 Farnborough Airshow yesterday and there was a large half page advertisement from EK for DEC's on B777/A330/340/310 in the Flight International Show handout.

Clearly EK are now firmly established as an Airline like SQ and others where DEC's are the order of the day and probably forever so any ex Captain joining as an F/O takes a big risk IMHO.

[Shake]

757...

'They say that if you remove the whinning factor from Emirates , its probably one of the best on this globe'...who are THEY?

I have no doubt that we will win more awards as we will be presenting them to ourselves.

It is a mistake to confuse opinion and genuine concern with 'whinning'. DECs and contact pilots may well be the way EK decides to go, but it a short term solution. Tackle the fundamental problems and EK could become the preferred option again to pilots and not just another airline...no awards for that.

[BYMONEK]

Freespeed
I wasn't going to get involved with this but after the biased replies from CAP56 and Dungfunnel,i'd like to put my own views forward.Firstly,how Dungfunnel can offer a balanced and subjective view of 'actual family life' in Dubai when he doesn't even live here ,god only knows.Quote"didn't go,don't regret it".Fine,shut up then! A week visiting Russian hookers isn't what many of us aspire to!Also.without going into too many details,CAP56 has 'HISTORY' with Emirates and no longer draws a tax free salary here!
I was in exactly your position approx 2 years ago.The most difficult decision is the one you're about to make and ,as you will see,advice varies tremendously.
Firstly,Aviation has changed over the last 5-7 years and people here in Emirates tend to only think it's happening here.I'd been flying 4 years left seat,for good UK Charter,with 13 years total flying(all jet).Rosters were unstable,long night flights,no pay rise for 2 years but enjoyed Company/company, good pension and 'secure' future.Nice house,kids in good school.....settled!
Once decision made to join EK,have never looked back.I know it's early days and yes,Dubai is somewhat of an inigma and some things can be frustrating.Driving is poor verging on Dangerous but you do adapt.Summers are hot but wifes/kids escape for 6-8 weeks and seems to work.Other 8 months the weather is sublime!Nationals tend to keep themselves to themselves and most people tend to gravitate toward their own culture/friends.School places have been in short supply but Gov't/Airline is aware of this and there are plans for more to be built.Fact.Please check with schools direct re.places but Emirates will try,where poss,to assist.Yes,there is a lot of night flying,but no more than your average charter airline and to be expected with longhaul.There's no 4/5 hour coach tours around the countryside(not that there is any in Dubai anyway) before or after flights and the best bit is the private pick up to take you to/from work.A delight after your 5.30am arrival!Your Accommodation will vary and may not be what your shown but we are very happy with ours.3 big b/rooms,2 bathrooms huge kitchen,utility,large lounge/dining and study.Upstairs lounge as well as large maids room+bathroom. 3 mins drive from lovely beach(public).Schools are of a high standard both academically and discipline.start early around
7-45 but finish around 1-15.Most a/noons spent relaxing at one of many clubs that as pilots we can access thru pilots club for approx £12/month(family of 4)!use of gym/pool/beach plus up to 40% discount off food/drink.There is plenty else for children/grown ups including horse riding/sailing clubs/golf/tennis/cinemas/hockey...yes,ICE hockey and soon there will be the worlds largest indoor ski slope.There are also some excellent parks that are ideal for Kids.Plenty of modern shopping malls and lots of high quality restuarants,many in 5 star hotels at a fraction of cost compared to rip off uk prices.Emirates medical facilities are superb and from recent experience will testify to the outstanding level of service that we received when one of our children was recently taken ill. No waiting,no fuss,just clean efficient medical care in Private/en-suite rooms. Petrol is only 18p/liter,that's cheaper than water and cars cost less as well.Flying itself is good,in 17months only one 'odd' ball Captain and not one change to my roster.What you see on your roster is what you fly(99%)Initial training can seem pedantic and sop,s need sorting(seem to change every few months) but seems to be improving.Bid system is good with 5 month rotation.Normally get your request in top 2-3 months and most of requests in rest...if not too greedy and bid carefully!Routes are expanding every day and good to fly to places i'd only ever heard about.Can book buisness class for you/family and first class if you're Captain.Time to command is still around 3 year mark and DEC's are to fill a gap while Airline is short.Doesn't concern me as 2-3 yrs experience on new type/route/sop's/Airline is good before L/seat.All DEC's so far are around early/late fifties and are not long term!.Last years profit pay was 8 weeks,this years was 10!People here still moaned as they were expecting 12....no pleasing some eh?
I've put my point across,overall i'm pleased with move.I actually appreciate the UK more now i don't live there but i can always visit it for a week for £500!My wife is very happy and settled and so too are the children.I ensure they never lose touch with reality while at the same time bringing them up in a safe,clean country with a very high standard of living.There is no 'brainwashing' here.It's what YOU and YOUR family choose to make of it and i wish you all the best in your decision :ok:
p.s Try and leave some money/investment especially if in Europe as dollar is currently weak(not Emirates fault) but otherwise this shouldn't effect you too much if coming long term.Spreads your investments is one way of looking at it.Also,if you have good furniture,take the allowance and ship it out.The furniture here is crap.
pps Don't forget some factor 20+ sunscreen! :\

[AVIATOR757]

Good choice of words and fine job of laying out the facts. Thanks for your time and safe flying. "THEY" is for furloughed buddies out west and good honest people looking for ways to make ends meet. :O
A757

[Shake]

Bymonek makes the good +ve case...it's all relative.

Believe it or not I am a good honest person trying to make ends meet too.

[max AB]

So what BYMONEK is trying to say is that any place is better than the UK..Yeah, I think I got that right..

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

The thing most people on here are saying is the UAE is different than their home country (in my case OZ). I wouldn't stay here for 10 or 15 years, but with two young kids getting their education paid for, and living in a largely crime free country and the chance to see a culture close up they would never get the chance to back home, I think the kids and I are benefitting from the experience.

As all the guys have said, either on the positive or the negative, the UAE is a personal choice, and will not suit everyone. My advice if you know anyone living out here, make the smart investment of at least a week or two out here, just living the life and see what you think. I personally love it. The beer is cold and the weather is fantastic (even the summer is sort of ok once you get used to it.)

And just finally to the guy who commented about not wanting to fly for ettihad due to the need to live in Abu Dhabi. I agree that if you live in Dubai it's hard to justify a visit to AUH, but most people living here who have sampled both cities, swear by the fact that AUH is a more family friendly city, and a more liveable city in general. Traffic jams are non-existent, the schools are easy to get into, cheaper, and from most reports of a more consistantly higher standard than Dubai's, there is still heaps of great restaurants, the nightlife is ok, and the "Club" is a cheap and well appointed club. So Abu Dhabi , while maybe not as wild or exciting as Dubai, is still not a bad place to live.

[BYMONEK]

maxAB
Okay...so maybe a bit detailed but the guy needs to get as much info as poss.And yes,coming out and staying with a mate in his house for a week or so gives small taste of real life outside shiny new hotels.Regarding my post,i'm not saying Dubai is better than UK,just very different.We were very settled but wanted to make move while Family still young and move on to avoid same 'life' for the next 20 years.It's not everyones cup of tea and yes,there are some things that i miss.Strangely,rain being one of them,and pubs and the countryside and ....... but personally,Arabic coffee is tasting nice so far! ;)

[White Knight]

BYMONEK - very god post matey. I agree with all you've said, although in the past I've been accused of having the old rose-tinted. It's what you make of it guys!!!!! And seriously, if you don't like working here then get on an aeroplane and GO.....

I'm not saying that everything's perfect at EK, but every airline has issues. And with a 100 odd aircraft to come to the airline in the next eight years you'll have your command in three years.

Yes, lot's of night flying - it's a LONG HAUL airline:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

My family and I still having a great time in Dubai, all these months after being told I was talking sh1te. Sorry to disappoint you doom mongers.

I've personally seen far worse driving in Brussels than here in Dubai, although there are some real corkers here it has to be said :E :E

[Shake]

Seaman...

Too late for me I'm afraid....I've jumped and am here already...it's 'Freespeed' who's after the advice, thanks anyway.

[Cap 56]

Freespeed

Be very careful on how your interpretation the post of BYMONEK.

Dubai is a big theme park and yes they have all the nice stuff he mentions but it's there for the tourists who have a go at it for a couple f weeks.

You kids will be moaning al the time while in fact they have to make their homework. It's very expensive too and in the summer it's useless, the whole place just runs empty.

School standards are very low to a few exceptions.

Do not mess up your life for a few years f sunshine or a quick command that will take you away from your family for days flying 16 hr sectors.

Dubai is a place for bachelors and selfish ego trippers with the exception of a few but they are very rare believe me.

Also medical standards are very low. I had my youngest son poisoned and refused by EK clinic since it was closing time. Other colleagues were nearly operated for no reason whatsoever, after running away from he lace to Europe the doc saw tat here was nothing wrong at all. In the UAE they cut you open just to make a few bucks.

I am about to finish my book on all his with names, reports and facts that cannot be manipulated as is often he case on PPRuNe.

[Cap 56]

White Knight seems to be a typical fatality of EK. I do not know his past but basically one does not leave a healthy European Airline to go to the Middle East, so I leave this issue open.

It is clear and even normal that in such a fast growing environment as the UAE things are bound to get overlooked or mismanaged.

There is plenty of evidence on PPRuNe that this is the case at EK but that is not the real issue.

The real issue is that soon or later because of this, you might have a difference of opinion; could be in any field. The way these differences of opinion are handled is the real problem.

In an Airline with so many different cultures and backgrounds this needs special attention by people with the right qualifications and personality. I am not saying that these individuals are not there but they are not always in power and if they are they have to be very careful not to act against the system.

It’s all about money and power and almost never about a genuine cooperation to make things better. Yes, things do improve from time to time, but only at a moment when the one who initiates the change can take credit for it. Very often the idea comes from someone else who with a lot of patience and tactics managed to convince a superior to change things.

What has happened to the guys involved in the A 340 incident, nobody knows. PPRuNe has gone completely silent.

White knight has been very cooperative on that tread in delivering some data. Data that would never have seen the light if I had not pushed him a bit to do so. But that is how it works at EK, do not expect an open and hones constructive debate on anything.

In the end other PPRuNers opened the can of worms and the conclusion was that the crew did not even land on the longest runway available after mishandling the rotation for whatever reason. It was only because I criticized the crew that other PPRuNers, in their defense, came up with some real and genuine information. Information, that in the end may safe the reputation of the crew.

People are too scared to show their opinion in such an environment, the price you pay for that is simply too high. That’s the real difference with Europe. Although there are many Europeans in Dubai, basically they are there only for the money and that makes them so protective and closed about the decisions they make.

Everybody tries to be friendly to everybody because they do not want to reveal what they really think; therefore you will never really get a complete picture.

On the psychological level, there are quit some managers and trainers that are not very sure about what they are doing, this makes them so defensive, as true sign of their vulnerability.

There are things they do not know and are afraid to ask because of the risk of exposing themselves. I managed to tap into that by getting their confidence and that’s how I got into the inner circle very quickly.

I somehow sacrificed myself by asking the questions they were afraid to ask and as a consequence we made some quick progress on many issues. It’s because of jealousy and greediness of those that were not involved that I got into trouble and that the system showed it’s true face.

If in the end you decide to go to EK then I hope that this information will serve you to navigate around the cliff’s and maybe, just maybe this post will serve to many about to made that decision in a prudent and balanced way.

Personally I give a lot of credit to those that show their real feelings about things. They may not always be right, but most of the time they are genuine and that’s what counts.

Those that are charming and friendly to everybody usually have something to hide. So if you get an interview, just be honest to yourself and ask the questions you really want to ask. If then EK does not take you, you have no reason to regret anything.

Dungfunnel

You are right; the UAE accepts the rating from any ICAO country. EK is desperate for crews and you may be babysitting for a long time. The fact is that things are going too fast at EK and that is not very healthy. Slow and prudent growth is the way to success.

However in the UAE they may get away with it because of the huge amount of money the have to repair the mistakes. But it is not easy to change the foundations of a building that is already there while everybody is saying no problem I will fix it. The tread on the ATC delays is another symptom of this problem.

max AB

THe EK management is from....yes....the UK

[picu]

CAP 56, you say : "Dubai is a place for bachelors and selfish ego trippers"
Since you worked in Dubai a while ago, and you're definiteley not a bachelor, that makes you a selfish ego tripper........
Best post you've sent so far.

[Cap 56]

I believe they are doing their best, but if HH Sheikh bla bla says; “that’s what I want” nobody will say it’s not possible.

All those that are out there for a quick command will jump in the air crying “here is my command” because for him that’s all that counts. Just watch them when they get it.

Picu

If you want to quote me then do it correctly, if not you will only duscredit yourself

Dubai is a place for bachelors and selfish ego trippers with the exception of a few but they are very rare believe me.

The intelligent reader will understand that I am talking about those that plan to leave a healthy Airline/Country in exchange for EK.

Shake; You quote

With any luck the delay will be long enough for those who were qualified once to requalify for command within the company therfore reducing the total number of DEC required.

You must be very unhappy, anyway good luch with your perception of your move

[millerscourt]

White Knight

Surely you have not been accused of wearing the "rose tinted" have you:confused: Whatever next I wonder.

I was wondering whether Bymonek was you in another disguise!!

Still it is horses for courses. There will always be those who either love it or loathe it. Most once there have little chance of going anywhere else as probably Mick Jagger who is a B777 Captain at EK has probably now discovered having looked at both SQ and Dragonair. Most of us are prisoners whether willing or unwilling once we become ex-pats.

[Dropp the Pilot]

Has to be said again:

1000 pilots at Emirates, 4 malcontents posting here. Draw your own conclusions.

I have to go clean my pool now (both maids are on holidays). That is the greatest downside I can report to my life at EK, but then I'm not Australian.

Cap 56: Your pills are in the amber bottle next to the suppositories. Take them.

[Reverend Doctor Doug]

Freespeed

As you can see there is varied opinion on the merits of joining EK. It does depend largely on where you are now and how you see your future.

One thing is for sure, the opinions you read here are often at either end of the spectrum. I would caution you on BYMONEK's post. I freely accept that it is his opinion and he is entitled to it.
I can assure you it is an opinion that is at one end of the spectrum.

I don't have the time to debate each point he raises. Some are fair enough some are biased and exagerated. I will quote you one example

Can book buisness class for you/family and first class if you're Captain

Fact: As an F/O you can only access business class on an upgrade basis if space is available. If you are travelling with children under 16 you are not entitled to business fullstop. The same goes for business/first for captains.

That is one "fact" that BYMONEK has misrepresented. There are others in his post and many other points that can be argued at length.

BYMONEK is definitely a glass is half full guy, which i admire him for. Unless you are the same type of person, then don't rely too heavily on his opinion.

As a general rule, I dont think you will see many posts from people who have been here more than a few years that share BYMONEK's optimisim.

From where i sit i see that the aviation industry worldwide is in a downward spiral as far as conditions for pilots go. I think that EK is probably one of the best expat jobs around at present.

If you desperately want to be an expat, then EK is probably a good choice. On the other hand, if you are just desperate to leave your current job, are you prepared to become an expat in the Middle East and accept the burdens that come with it?

Cop U Later

The Rev

[Cerberus]

Rev,

Everyone has a bias, that is life. Perhaps, you are showing your bias as a glass half empty guy in your example. You question Bymonek's facts but what about yours:

Fact: As an F/O you can only access business class on an upgrade basis if space is available. If you are travelling with children under 16 you are not entitled to business fullstop. The same goes for business/first for captains.

I will agree that with kids you travel a class down and duty tickets are upgradable Y/J as an F/O, J/F as a Captain. However, if you buy a First ID 50, you travel First and I have not yet been downgraded on either an annual leave ticket or ID90 when leaving the blighters at home.

But lets rise above the p*ssing competition, none of us can make Freespeed's decision for him, we don't know his circumstances. I suspect the advice might be different for a guy that was working for Alitalia or furloughed from United compared to a guy working for South West or Lufthansa.

As to the rest of the comments on this thread, they generally come from both ends of the spectrum cos guys in the middle really can't be asked to raise a finger. Cap 56 asserts that 'school standards are very low', but I actually think they are great compared to a lot of places particularly because most of the parents are achievers and little johnny from the council estate doesn't get an entry pass. That view might well change when the kids are older and need a bigger pond to operate in. Remember though, whilst some are glass half full guys and some half empty; Cap 56 is a font of all knowledge who's glass is not only empty, it was broken by EK when he was asked to leave.

Freespeed, everything that is written here is an opinion and opinions are like ar**holes we all have one and they usually stink. My opinion, for what its worth. Whilst most of the DECs may be in their early 50's; I have met some that are not. We are getting a lot of aircraft but we now have a lot of pilots and competition in the market is hotting up with Etihad and who knows who else joining. Simple numerics say that commands cannot happen for everyone at 3 years, I don't know when the time to command will start to grow but it will. As an ex-pat you must also realise that you do it for yourself and you are on your own, there is no one out there looking after you.

Even though I'm a half full kinda guy and happy with my lot I would caution you to make sure you know a) why you want to come and b) whether EK and Dubai will fill those needs. The only way to give yourself a better stab at making the right decision is to use an ID 90 and come to DXB and investigate further. Right now is a great time to come because the weather sucks and that should burn some of the rose tinting off the outside of the glasses. Failing that talk to guys you know personally who work for EK so that you can filter their comments as appropriate.

The Rev is right that sadly aviation isn't what it once was and that T&Cs have been on a downward spiral. His burdens would be my frustrations and even I have to bolt away every now and then to retain my sanity. I then look at where I came from and realise that Dubai and EK might not be perfect but it isn't that bad either. (P.S. This message will self destruct in another 5 years or so, so that the Rev can't give me a hard time for my youthful exuberance.)

Cerberus

[dicksynormous]

Well it aint what it used to be, horses for courses.

Personally i would advise against it if you are over 35.

or ugly:}

[AVIATOR757]

I guess it would be more app. if the debate was U.K. vs. middle-east and not Emirates ITSELF.;)

[BYMONEK]

Regarding my earlier post i stand by the facts re.staff travel. On our ALT ( Annual leave ticket),you are correct in that children under 16 can't travel in econ but book an ID 90 and you can .I've just returned from Uk and wife and both young children were most def in Buisness......i should know cause my little girl thru up over me ! Anyway,Staff travel isn't the only reason for coming and i did say that life in Dubai isn't perfect.It's just that life for us ,after the first year,is good and we are happy.With regards to Crap56 postings,as you will have read,His decision to live in "Disneyland" was removed several years ago so his views will most definately be biased.The Education my young children receive here IS better than in UK AND THAT'S A FACT! Finally,Dungfunnel,For someone who was 'offered' employment but 'declined'....cough....cough...,i find it baffling that you slate Emirates and Dubai with so much venim.Why did you bother appyling in the first place?Imagine how angry you'd be if you HADN'T got in! Prisoner no.29 signing off,the beach is calling
:cool:

[White Knight]

Absolutely BYMONEK, education (at least at the school my kids are at) is of a far higher standard than the good old village primary and local comprehensive!!! I'm very pleased with the education they're getting.

Millerscourt, you're still stalking me:eek: :eek: I'm sure there's a law against that. And no, I'm definately not BYMONEK:cool:

Cap 56, you're a bitter man.

[6100]

BYMONEK

You may well have been upgraded to J class, but you weren't entitled to it. Go back and read your staff manual. You will soon learn to keep your mouth shut when luck like that smiles apon you. If management finds out when and where, someone will get their butt kicked.

[BYMONEK]

Rev....or should i say 6100

It wasn't an Upgrade.It was an ID90 Buisness purchased at Staff travel.Staff travel guide is slightly misleading but as far as aware,only on ALT must 1 adult accompany children in lower class of cabin. Anyway,even EK economy is better than charter 29"so i could live with that for a year or three!

Dungfunnel

I really don't want to turn this into an ongoing yes/no battle and re.your decision to turn down EK,you feel that your decision not to come was correct and i hope that it was the right one, for you.You wouldn't be the first to say no and certainly will not be the last.I'm not that naive to assume everyone takes a job if offered.i'm just very surprised at your middle East/Emirates bashing on this and previous forums.Is it not time to accept your decision and move on,or are you going to spend the rest of your life trying to justify YOUR decision on pPrune? My BA interview many years ago also contained lots of fake smiles and it's not only as an Expat that you'll find yourself expendable.Whichever Airline you work for,it's becoming more and more difficult to preserve our T & C's.I'm just disappointed that you feel qualified to offer a fellow professional advice on actual everyday life in Dubai and Emirates when you neither live or indeed work here.You appear to slate people for wanting the best for their families.Why not send their children to the best schools?Do you send yours to the worst? Keep the ( by the way it's spelt Jumeriah) Jane wife in luxury.Do you keep yours out of it? As for the threesomes,i'll ring and let you know all the juicy details when it happens....phone calls are free out here ;)

[White Knight]

Yes, I am surprised by the claims that we're expendable and/or slave labour. Anywhere you work you're expendable - just ask the 108 pilots that are about to be let loose from My Travel in the UK!!!!!!
As for slave labour, that's just downright bollocks and very over-dramatised:yuk: :yuk: Slave labour is bus loads of building labourers who live 15 to a room and share a bucket to sh1t in....

And why do some describe Dubai as "artificial"? What do you mean? Surely any city is artificial in that it's not natural desert, jungle,tundra or rolling fields..... Or maybe you think that it's generally too clean or neat or getting greener. Shame on you. I always like coming back here after the filth of the far east, or africa and for that matter most of northern europe.

[Aussie]

Hey Fellas how are you?
Just a question....I havent done a lot of night flying so perhaps i dont understand, but why is Night flying not liked by pilots?
I love flying at night from what i have flown, and prefer it over day!!!

Why is it considered a bad thing?

Thank you!

Aussie

[BYMONEK]

Hi Aussie
Having worked UK Charter for many,many years,one could say that i'm well used to the delights of night flying.The main downfall with the night flying in Emirates,however, is the START time.Going to work at 7 in the evening and returning back around 5 or 6 is tiring enough,especially if you have to repeat it the following night,but to be picked up and taken to work at 1 or 2am is far worse.Pre duty rest is often difficult to achieve(have you tried going to bed around 6 in evening with wife and kids about),phone usually rings around 8ish followed by bin collection around 10....yes,i kid you not! These start times fall into the "too late for a night flight / too early for an early morning" category.Still,at least you can bid for some short day returns to break it up(an opportunity many pilots with other Airlines can't do flying longhaul) and we do have many departures at more sensible times throughout the day.If you like spending time hanging upside down in dark places and detest Garlic infused food.........we'd be glad to welcome you aboard !Sunglasses not required,night vision goggles optional!
:)

[Aussie]

Ahh kool. Thanks mate.
So its not the night flying pilots dont like, its the duty hours.
Starting late and finishing early, i can understand that must be a tough thing to do, and then back it up too the following day...

I guess Dubai airport doesnt have a curfew then....

Cheers

Aussie

[dicksynormous]

Bymonek,

The phonecalls may be free but the speech on them isnt. fact. be careful.
as another expat now in europe i think df has a point, but if its your thang


dungfunnel,

know where your coming from, but it is their choice.i have encountered ek arrogance aka the dark side, also still in europe and breathing a sigh of relief. however a trip back to dubai is in the pipeline. I like vodka so whats better than a woman for the price of a bottle that tastes of vodka. its like two for one at tesco. :8

[maddog62]

Bymonek,

Keep the ( by the way it's spelt Jumeriah) Jane

..actually it's spelt Jumeirah :E

chow, mad

[BYMONEK]

Aussie
Read my post again.Not length of day but START time!

Maddog62
Thanks for correction.....you are correct and i'm:O
now....to find that dark corner and curl up and hide!

Dicksynormous
Havn't come here for free speech.If i didn't like the way this country is run i wouldn't stay.......which is why i put my money were my mouth is and left UK. Asylum seakers,religious groups,minority factions........their opportunity for free speech and their abuse of the legal system is ruining UK!
Enjoy your break in Dubai by the way,although expect to pay slightly more than a bottle of Vodka for your nights 'entertainment'. Most places like that are happy hour before 10.......well,"every little helps"!

[dicksynormous]

Asylum seakers,religious groups,minority factions........their opportunity for free speech and their abuse of the legal system is ruining UK!

as a one legged multi sexual transgender refugee pilot of colour and a member of the church of benefits, traditionalist offshoot sect , gay subclan i take offence to your intolerance and will be seeking legal aid from the office of such free things to rob you of your rights to be european.

you have invaded my human rights by being in dubai and i will be chaining myself to the overcrowded dentit or gp in protest until you apologise or i get a free operation .

:p

bymonek
i see you are online. i'm on sby in the uk whats your excuse, no totty at scarletts, or have you been excluded from the sailing club again, you can take the man out of charter but you cant take the charter out of the man

[BYMONEK]

dicksynormous

Spot on there matey! Never joined a sailing club in UK as working every bloody weekend ( can i get away with 'bloody' Mr Moderator?) Anyway,might give it a try here if they'll have me but in the meantime,will enjoy other forms of relaxation!!
Would hate to offend and see you chained to an overcrowded dentit so will apologize :rolleyes:
p.s. What is a 'dentit' by the way?
p.p.s Tuesday is the night for Scarletts!
p.p.p.s Hope you don't get called out from your s/by!

[Cap 56]

Drop the pilot

First of all, you are doing the smarter pilots looking at EK a good service with your post.

You are actually revealing the true nature of your motives to fly with EK, grievance and disrespect for other individuals; I can not possibly imagine that a pilot needs two maids to clean up his mess.

Also, your posting name “Drop the pilot” clearly indicates what goes on in your mind, one dos not choose such a name without any reason.

Once you join EK, you are stuck, leaving early means, you do NOT get the financial bonus and the reality of the place makes it virtually impossible to make any savings.

Therefore I repeat my previous statement, those that go to EK for the money only will be very disappointed. Individuals that are very money orientated are usually very unreliable, with a lack of any sense of morality.

Unfortunately that’s the prototype of the EK pilot and those that want to go there better get it told to them early enough. There are exceptions but these are rare.

Those that do not take any interest in this argument probably fit the profile of the place and they know it.

Good luck on them, they will lead a dull and very superficial existance and since it's the standard over there, no medication needed to bring them back to reality.

In fact one may say that as such a natural selection process takes place and it’s not based on any genuine western values at all on the contrary.

I have made a big mistake in going there and take it to my credit that I try to warn others.

[workmatters]

Free speed, First of all congratulations on getting through unlike you I never got through the selection at EK I was really disappointed at not getting through at the time but if I can let you know how things have panned out for my group since April. As you know you are divided in to two groups of four on day one during the three days I have to say I was with a great bunch and as usual we swapped e-mails etc.

Within my group was 1 Canadian, 1 Australian, 1 Swiss and myself UK. The Australian chap whilst he was happy enough his wife was unhappy probably due to the particularly poor villa accommodation they showed us we were even escorted around U/P TOWER as to what we could expect to have if allocated an apartment so on arrival back home he withdrew his application, the Canadian pilot subsequently got through the process and was to start more or less at the end of May that’s four weeks since being there! But during late May his company went through restructuring and he decided to remain in Canada. The Swiss pilot was working already for SQ and contracted for three months before being available he was also offered a position but during his notice period he went to Air China and took there offer instead working out of London or Frankfurt (I think) this was down to money on his decision.
I have just been placed in the pool for the world’s favourite airline this wouldn’t have happened if I hadn’t been chopped which made me apply, so the relevance of this post is to say if you have any doubt about EK be like my colleagues don’t do it, just do what’s right for you there are other opportunities

[BYMONEK]

Workmatters

You bring some good points to the forum,especially the fact that out of the four of you,3 were offered employment but non took it! That says quite a lot re.either Emirates package or ,as you say,that this Company isn't for everyone.In some ways,having the decision taken from you can be the easy way out,although it may not seem it at the time.You were obviously disappointed,like any of us would be,but it's perhaps worked out better for you now that you've jumped through the B.A hoops instead.I wish you well in your new Airline....i can think of a lot worse.Which,Brings me back to Emirates.Showing married couples around U/P Towers is NOT a good idea,especially as far as i'm aware,that only single F/O's are there and the married guys are elswhere.With over 500 Cabin Crew,it's not known as Unlimited Pu :mad: sy for nothing!Not a good start to impress the wife.Villas are available for guys with families and some single f/o's are now being given villas as well but it will depend on availability.My Major concern,however,is that we are starting to lose too many people after job offers and it's rumoured that some 3-6 year Captains are about to jump ship.Either the package will be improved to attract and keep the guys,or the standards will slip to ensure their profits each year.I just hope it's not the latter!
This place is still good,but it's not the golden egg it maybe once was.It's not for everyone but there are many here who wouldn't go anywhere else.Think long and hard but once you make the decision,don't look back.Life's too short !

BYMONEK

[White Knight]

As far as I'm aware the policy is single F/O's, or married F/O's without kids get an apartment, and those like myself who do have a family get a villa. Those who only qualify for an apartment get the option of a villa upon command upgrade.

I was only shown an apartment during the interview tour, as there were no empty villas to look at. Not a good PR exercise it has to be said:{

[BYMONEK]

White Knight

You are correct but some new F/O's who aren't even married have been given villas as the are no apartments available at present.Hopefully just a 'one off' or else people may start getting:*

[Shake]

Back again, and unashamedly cup half empty about EK.

It comes back to relativity: relative to where you are coming from.

EK can offer some people the job they really want or become the rut they didn't want. You don't have to look too far in the past to see that today EK is far from the pearl it once professed to be but just another airline, no better & perhaps no worse.

EK 'is' failing to attract the new pilots it needs and is in danger of losing the pilots it already has. 160 aircraft by 2010 = 1500 more pilots = 250 ish per year....on current terms and with strong competition from other airlines, where are they going to come from?

If you didn't make it into EK I sympathise only to the degree that I wish I hadn't either...the future is bright, the future is probably elsewhere...you may well be better off.

[CORSICA]

I read all your posts.
Some times good, and sometimes wrong, like anywhere, i suppose.
I would like to jump back on rhs only to seize an A330-A340 or B777 type rating, and if not, i 'll be stucked in short haul, on turbo-prop for a long time, as captain. I am 40, and i think it's time to change my option of career.
There's 2 difficulties for me:
- First of all, to speek english. We are so bad to speek an other language than french, it's a true handicap for us.
-second, it's the system of remuneration, very different than ours.
and when i saw the package with a basic pay of about 4600$, plus a lot of things by hours...don't understand.
Are they working with the system of free time/duty time.
what is exactly the pay you do by month, or year.
I do about 80000$ by year, and so about 70000$ after tax.
hotels and food are supplyed by the company out of base.
what about EK.

ps: excuse me for spelling mistake, i try to improve myself, and it's a hard job.

An other précision, i\'m on hold for EK

[Shake]

Corsica...I appreciate the dilemma you are in and appreciate that a 330/340 or 777 rating may seem very attractive.

Anyway I hope that this helps:

The package for a First Officer approximate to:

18,500 Dhms/month = $5000 US (fixed @ 3.65) = $61,000/year, no tax.

Accomodation is supplied: Villa or Apartment depending on family or single. An allowance can be taken in lieu.

Hotac down route is obviously supplied by the company with allowances based on local rates.

Medical/ child education (primary onwards) included.

7 weeks leave per year (I think).

Days off vary with the rosters.

Command could take some time to come around.

English is important, at the moment at least.

Hope this helps a bit and good luck with your decision but please read other related threads to get a full picture before jumping. Worth beginning the application process to have the option one way or the other.

[CORSICA]

you're right when you talk about dilemma.

the equation is:

good type rating and maybe a new career against expatriation,lost of captain position and lost of pay (due to the change 1 Euro/1,24 $)

I will resolve it after some time.

anyway, thanks a lot for the informations.

[Shake]

Not as clear cut as it used to be moving to the ME. $ vs Euro rate is making a significant difference. Anyway, Captain in Europe on turboprops sounds good to me. Good Luck which ever way you go.

[SecurID]

It's 6 weeks leave, not 7. Or more exactly 42 days.

[crazypilot]

Hi,

I have read all of the above posts, obviously there are many pros and cons for moving out to the UAE and to EK.

Could someone who lives in Dubai and works for EK (as a European expat) please give me some true thoughts --- do you enjoy it/ was it the right move/ what is Dubai like to LIVE in? A note to consider -- may have an offer from EK, this is my first real job so not too much to compare with in the UK.

Tough decision,

Cheers

CP

[BYMONEK]

crazypilot

Why would it be a tough decision to work for E.K. if this is your first 'real' job? Your kidding us.... right?:confused:

[crazypilot]

No, not kidding, I'm just wondering about how easy it is to get back into the European airline business once I have been out in DXB for a while. I have a job offer with a good company in the UK, that's all and have to decide and I just don't know how comfortable I would be out in the UAE.

Cheers

CP

P.S. 'Real' job as in I have been at uni / training up til now...

[Cerberus]

Crazee,

If you have been at Uni and then training, how will you get a job wiith EK? Unless you did 4000 hours of training....ah ha!

[crazypilot]

...because it's not for a pilot job, that's how :cool:

[737-700pilot]

If you get the sad letter from EK that you have been rejected, can you be reconsidered???

[BYMONEK]

CRAZYPILOT

Sorry matey......we all assumed that with the name of crazypilot and being on a 'pilots' forum,that you were a.........well, pilot i guess!

[crazypilot]

Yes, sorry about the misunderstanding....crazypilot refers to my private flying ... PPL only unfortunately!

[frangatang]

How is wing commander stealey settling in,and on the subject of things relative,surely it depends on where you come from.If you were exiled from australia l can understand being bitter and twisted,but if you spend your life living in a dump of a british town
endless traffic jams,yobs everywhere dumping their litter,and spending friday nights dodging pavement pizzas and flying bottles,it cant be that bad!

[BYMONEK]

frangatang

come on now......Crawley's not THAT bad..............there again!

[maxy101]

Better "steel "yourself for constant SOP changes and Flying Manual amendments then. Didn't you know you Emirates chaps have been operating aircraft incorrectly all these years? Prepare to be patronised and told how flight ops mishaps are the result of too many people commuting.(Even though the relevant people live around the corner) Mind you he was better than the replacement patroniser we have in place now....Can we have AS back?

[Shake]

Constant SOP changes & amendments ? Being patronised ? Fits the management profile perfectly...must have breezed the interview.

Nothing new then, should fit in really well...can't wait.

As if morale wasn't low enough... any lower we'd probably strike oil.