Medical renewal, only on a day off at MyTravel!

[wingull]

Ever since I joined my present company ("The troubled MyTravel") I have arranged my medical renewal on a sby day and informed crewing of the appointment.

Now I have been told that they cannot 'authorise' my medical on a working day and that I should arrange my medical during a rostered day off. This has been confirmed by a management pilot.

Have I been lucky to have had my previous medicals in 'company' time, and should I arrange my medical in my own time, reserved for rest and relaxation?

[squeakyunclean]

Wingull,

Who told you that? Its complete b****x!

I always have and always will arrange my medical on a ‘working’ day.

If they want me to have my medical on a day off they can always give me a day off payment ££££££!

Wingull, would you mind emailing me with the details?

[FaPoGai]

Wingull
Well, yes you have been lucky, but did it really make any difference? If you had been called out then you could have done it on another day and then scheduling would have had to give you time of to have your medical if necessary.As long as it is not life threatening------- its not a big deal.

Squeakyclean
I do hope that you have a few job applications in the pipeline. Currently the Royal Opera House and the Royal Ballet are accepting applications for Prima Donna's.

Rgds. FPG

[backofthedrag]

If you perform a work-related duty it cannot be a Day Off. Inform the Company as such and they will have to fit it in as a duty day.

[Carnage Matey!]

Thats seems rather sporting of MYT. At BA I've always had to ensure my medical doesn't clash with a rostered duty.

[Herod]

It's not a work-related duty, as holding a licence is one of the conditions of your employment. I suspect very few companies will roster a medical as a working day, and you have just been lucky so far.

[Mindthegap]

Even Ryanair roster you for a medical...

[wingull]

Thanks Guys

Squeaky
You seem to be in the majority. Everyone I know, except the management pilot I spoke to, never arrange their medical for a day off.

FaPoGai
Obviously your AME is not as busy as mine. Just arranging any appointment is awkward, rearranging at short notice would be very difficult indeed. Oh and your right about Squeaky! (sorry mate)

Botd
I did wonder about the work related bit?

CM!
I arranged the medical for after the end of my sby, the co want me all day though, just in case.

Herod
Don’t quite follow you drift. Are you saying that keeping your licence valid is not a work related duty like your LPC/OPC etc.?

MTG
You must be making that up!

Thanks anyway chaps

[Engine overtemp]

I would quite like a day off payment for washing / ironing work shirts. taking my uniform to the dry cleaners, filling the car with petrol to get to work, and other such work related tasks.
Where do you draw the line?

:yuk:

[opnot]

Wingull

We ATCOS dont have rostered time off,you get your medical done on your days off , no days in lieu for it.

As I was once told, its your license , its your job , does it matter when you have your medical done.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

wingull

Shouldnt you be more worried if MYT will pay the Docters bill than when you do it?.....
Your lucky mate, most airlines dont give you time off for medicals, better arrange it on off days as anything else is open to change in your business.

Backofthedrag - another ill informed comment , try calling CAA Flight Ops Policy before making such statements...:\

[wingull]

Oh dear,

the last three posts are pointless and petty.

Probably frustrated pilots just home from a day at the office.

[Engine overtemp]

the last three posts are pointless and petty.
Meaning they don't agree with your point of view? (And just for the record, not a "frustrated pilot just home from the office" but, like you, a Captain with a major UK operator. Unlike you however, I can see that "The troubled MyTravel" can't afford to dish out say 500 extra days off to pilots for 1 hour doctors appointments!).

[wingull]

That’s more like it. Off the subject though.

Of course it’s pointless to compare the ‘work related tasks’ you mention with keeping your licence valid.

It’s also pointless to compare airline pilots with other professions.

And it’s especially pointless to post a reply telling me that I should be worried if MYT will pay the doctors bill, telling me how lucky I am and how to better arrange my days off.

So no, not pointless because I don’t agree at all.

Oh, and if you actually read what I said you would know that I didn’t ask for a day off, I arranged my medical at the end of a sby, if required I could be called out. All I was doing was letting crewing know the score. If I am called I’ll just rearrange my medical appointment, not on a day off though!

ps
E.O. Do I know you?

[Engine overtemp]

Why not arrange your medical for an hour before your standby starts then nobody would get upset. Your medical finishes and then you are immediatly available for the company. Crewing needn't know.

And no, I don't believe I do know you!

[wingull]

Good idea!

Except SBY 0400 - 1000

[Bealzebub]

A medical certificate is a personal requirement. You need it in your licence to work for any employer as a professional pilot. There is no requirement to do it on any particular day and you can obtain one at any time up to the expiry date of the existing one. In fact if you obtain it up to 6 weeks early you can extend its validity so that it only expires at the same point it would have done if you had left it up to the last date. This gives an effective 6 weeks window of opportunity which shouldn't give many pilots a problem with arranging a date.

If I were an AME I think I would be slightly aggrieved with people who booked their medicals on working days ( days they were on standby or duty), knowing that these days can and often are altered at short notice, only to have them cancel at the last minute. A lot of companies will not give you a day off to do your medical, unless you specifically request a day off for that purpose(or any other!) From the companies point of view, why should they care when you do your medical ? It only matters that you have one. The fact they may pay for such renewals is a bonus ( not all companies do) it doesn't entitle you to an extra day off for the purpose unless that is specifically enshrined in your contract of employment. Is that the case here ?

[You splitter]

Wingull,

I agree. There is no point comparing pilots with other professions. So I wont.

There is no requirement from the CAA, or under JAR-OPS, for an AOC holder to provide a medical certifcate for a pilot. There is a requirement for them to provide training such as OPC/LPC CRM etc. etc.

The medical certificate is a requirement for your licence, which belongs to you and not your employer. Therefore if you wish to have a valid licence you must have a valid class 1 medical. This is solely your responsibility.

As an operator the only thing I have to do is ensure I dont operate an aircraft with a crew member who has an invalid or expire licence or medical certificate.

Therefore in my opinon medicals should be arranged for days off.
Our company does actually pay the cost of the medical, but that is a perk not a right.

P. S Not a pilot.
P.P.S Not frustrated (unless you count the fact my favourite beer just been removed from my local!) :{

[wingull]

Regarding the ‘duty’ angle, I’ve just had a look at CAP 371.

'Days Off'
Periods available for leisure and relaxation free from all duties. A single day off shall include 2 local nights. Consecutive days off shall include a further local night for each additional consecutive day off. A rest period may be included as part of a day off.

'Duty'
Any continuous period during which a crew member is required to carry out any task associated with the business of an aircraft operator.

Despite what YS says I find it hard to accept that renewing your medical certificate is not at least associated with the business of an aircraft operator.

Commiserations about the beer though!

[Nattracks]

In my company you have to do your medical on a rostered off-day and you only get half of the fee back.....
comments?????

[Bealzebub]

wingull, The medical is your business not that of the operator. The operator probably requires you to have hair above collar length, but may be a tad reluctant to schedule your barbers appointments as days off.

If this logic gets any more tortured you might win the support of Amnesty International though ;)

[wingull]

Bb

Who’s doing the torturing?

Let’s stick to KEEPING A LICENCE VALID if you want to compare other ‘tasks’ to that of renewing a medical.

Off hand I can’t think of anything I have to do to keep my licence valid that isn’t associated with the business of the company. If you can, bring it on, we can compare like with like.

I don’t want a day off to iron my shirts, wash the car, have my haircut, go for a sh1t, take the dog for a walk, etc.,I already have 104 days off plus leave to do those things.

[Scallywag]

Wingull AKA "Whinger" Stop your bloody moaning on here and on arena too. Your medical currency is your responsibility. The company pay for it, what more do you expect. If you don't like it then sod off elswhere :yuk:

[wingull]

A classic pprune reply!

Thanks, keep up the good work.

[Bealzebub]

Ok wingy, a couple of questions for you.

Why do you believe that your medical certificate is "associated" with the "business" of your employer ? It seems your arguement is founded in establishing that case. You are required to hold it as an individual from a statutory standpoint, they are not required to provide it.

Secondly ( and already asked but not answered), what does your contract of employment state on the point. Bearing in mind it doesn't matter what it doesn't say ?

[squeakyunclean]

One of the hazards of posting on this forum I’m afraid. Scally’s right about you though (touché old boy)

Glad to hear it’s sorted. The medical on a sby came from ‘The Lad’ himself, obviously he’s not around anymore so it’s medicals on days off from now on. On the whole I don't think we do too badly.

I doubt there is anything in the contract except for the company paying, regarding counting it as duty I would say it is, but to be honest I don’t really care.

Now where are those ballet shoes?

[NACUD]

No prizes for working out who is MYT's “Employee of the Year!”.

With 104 days off a year, 8 days public holidays and 20 days leave along with single days off that don’t count towards the annual entitlement of days off and a window of 6 weeks in which to organise a medical I wouldn’t have thought it beyond the wit of man to arrange it. Oh and then it could always be done before or after a standby rather than left to the expiry date of the certificate.

I bet MYT are pleased to have wingull on their books.

[wingull]

I don’t know what my contract says about medicals. Is a medical associated? In my opinion it is. If an operator was not obliged to give training for LPC/OPC as YS says, then what’s the difference? It’s just another test after all.

I didn’t realise it was the exChief Pilot who suggested arranging my medical for a day off. I’d just heard it on the grapevine.

Obviously in future I won’t deliberately use a sby day for my medical.

Just to use a little analogy, if you drive past a road sign that says speed limit 40mph and you are stopped for doing 35mph you might be a little bit aggrieved. If you are then told that the limit was actually 30mph and you will be fined etc. you would probably be annoyed?

From what NACUD, Scallywag and one or two others have said, you would be grateful to have just been driving in the first place!!

“Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth, if that’s all right with the rest of you.”

[kinsman]

As an MYT employee I have always booked my medical in advance either on a day off or before a standby. As far as I see it the company provide me with a job I provide the licence, which includes the medical! They very kindly pay the bill!

In ten plus years of working for the company I have never seen anything in writing that would suggest we are entitled to a day off, or day off payment to get our medicals!

By the way Wingull why did you feel it necessary to raise the matter on Pprune when we have our own forums for this sort of thing? Just curious.
;)

[wingull]

Just wanted to find out what happens at other companies.

Took a bit of abuse but I'm used to that :ouch:

[Bealzebub]

"Just to use a little analogy, if you drive past a road sign that says speed limit 40mph and you are stopped for doing 35mph you might be a little bit aggrieved. If you are then told that the limit was actually 30mph and you will be fined etc. you would probably be annoyed?"

Yes you would be annoyed, but it would probably be your own fault, the statutory road sign would be a black 30 on a white background with a red circumference. Any sign that says "speed limit 40mph" would not be in compliance with the highway code or the Road traffic act.

By the way are these "meek" you talk about, proposing to inherit the Earth in their own time or on a working day?
:E

[wingull]

Ha Ha Ha,

I like it
:ok:

[kinsman]

Well I guess that puts the medical question to bed!:ok:

[Smokie]

Ah! thats nice, it's about time the Meek got something.

What's that?

Blessed are the Cheese Makers??













Big Nose!

[QAR ASR]

Sometimes I am staggered by the rank stupidity of some of the people using this forum. First of all you approach a management pilot, then upon not getting your own way you go and wash your dirty laundry in public. Are you hoping this outburst will appeal to his better nature? I sure in future any dealings you have with management will recieve a sympathetic hearing when they will be expecting you to run to press friendly PPRUNE.

Have you considered the expense to the company if it had to give each pilot a day off for his medical. 350ish pilots would mean something close to 600 medical days a year requiring additional 3 pilots minimum so something approaching £200,000 - £250,000.

Considering the predicament your company is currnently resting in your attitude stinks, (and I don't work for you). When you take into account that you have a whole month in which to arrange the appointment without reducing the validity period I fail to see your problem.

[squeakyunclean]

QA

I’m staggered by the stupidity of some people who don’t read what’s been written.

Who asked for a day off for a medical?
Who only did what his Chief Pilot told him to do?
Precisely what part of any of his post suggests his attitude stinks?

There are several of my colleagues asking questions raised by this thread, is a medical a duty has been discussed at length for instance.

The motivation for the post was ‘to find out what other companies do’, I think we now know and some of the posts confirm how lucky we are to be working for a company as good as (not perfect) ours. I wouldn’t have put this on pprune myself, too many prats who like to slag off others without adding any useful comment, still there have been several ‘sensible’ posts. I would agree that 'dirty linen in public' does springs to mind.

I was actually joking when I agreed wingull was a whinger. (w@nker perhaps!)

[CAT1]

No wonder so many passenger airlines are going bust! I thought the original post was taking the piss at first....the idea of doing a medical on a working day has never occurred to me in twenty years of aviation.You want to work or you want to find any excuse not to? I wouldn't employ you. Unfortunately it appears that someone does.

[wingull]

QAR ASR

Not sure how many times I need to say this but

I DIDN’T ASK FOR THE DAY OFF!

I didn’t even want my own way, apparently it was the (ex)Chief Pilots way.

It’s no wonder you fail to see my problem because I don’t have a problem, not with my medical anyway. (Uh oh, how long before the first “yeh your problem is….up you’re …. you ….. &*+=^%!)

CAT 1

Glad you could make it.

Which ‘passenger airlines’ are you referring to?
I suspect most things never occur to you :=

Thanks for coming.

Oh and Squeaky I can fight my own battles, check your pokedex.

[FaPoGai]

Cher Wingull and Squeaky

I quote from todays Times Business News
Chairman joins MyTravel exodus. "Eric Sanderson, the £240,000 -a-year chairman of MyTravel,yesterday became the ninth board director to quit in 16 months"
Shares in MyTravel,which five years ago were trading at 544.5p,
fell to12.75p.
Now,do you really feel that it is worth the fuss over what day you do your medical on? When the skids go under the company I doubt that you will get the same kind of renumeration package that the directors get.

Think again!

Rgds. FPG

[kinsman]

FaPoGai

Actually the shares closed where they started this morning! Small point but one worth making. Think the City see the move as a good sign rather rhan a bad one! Bit off topic I know.

Back to medicals, I think it is now clear wingul was just asking a question, not taking a stand! I question only his reason for posting here, rather than the company web site.

Some need to take a deep breath and read what has been written before running off at the mouth. But then again it would not be Pprune without a few ill thought out posts!

[wingull]

I didn't have a user name for Arena so I just posted on here.

Friendly bunch on the whole I thought?

I think it's time for wingull to evolve into........


(okay, I know what your thinking... an adult, a grown up etc...)

[beardy]

One of the factors considered when calculating pilot availability for establishment levels is unavailability due to medical reasons, illness, hospital treatment etc.. This need not always for 'unplanned' events.

IMHO the periodic medical examination(which for some is more frequent than once a year) fits nicely into this category. Hence you would not be 'robbing' your company of productive days, you would be operating more closely to your established availability. However, if your company is underestablished (quart from a pint pot case) you would disadvantage your colleagues by making them work above their established rate.

Your choice

[kinsman]

Sorry Beardy

Can't agree with your statement though I can see your logic! We provide a valid licence as part of our contracts, this requires us to hold a current class one medical. The operators insure us against the loss of our licence and pay for us to renew our medicals, at least that’s the case with most good employers. It seems a bit rich to me that we should also expect them to give us a day off for a one-hour appointment! Sick days are just that, days when we are unfit to carry out a duty we are required for, they are not there for medicals.

As someone has already pointed out giving every pilot a day off for his/her medical would equate in the MYT case to the loss of around 800 man-days if you take into account pilots over 40. I don't care how well established an airline is, this is an unreasonable cost. It may be that some airlines are happy to accept this burden.

I think a reality check is in order! Most airline crews get more days off than any other industry and are among the highest paid workers in the UK. That is not to say we should not fight to keep pay and conditions but this issue really is a non starter for me but each to his own.
:ok:

[brownstar]

a day off is a day off. It is to be kept free of any duties required by the company. the company requires you to renew your medical as part of your job, and therefore doing a medical on your day of means that you are carrying out company duty and as such should record it as time on duty. This therefore means the company can ask you to obtain the medical on your day off but they have now asked you to perform a duty related to your employment ( the company have an obligation for you to have a medical ,as well as you ).
in smaller companies where you may have more time off then this easily fits in with your time off.
in a company, which is not doing so well, they may well try to take this day off you inorder for them to save money.
If you are in such a company then things are pretty bad and you should probably seek employ else where.
the real question is this - how much B**l!!!!! are you prepared to put up with.
when the bull outweighs the benefits then something has to change.

[Bealzebub]

But brownstar aren't you just bending reality a bit to suit your case ? the regulatory authority require you to have a medical as part of your licence to make it valid. The operator doesn't require it. If the operator required it, then the medical would be arranged for you and scheduled on your roster.

The fact that you cannot work without the medical may result in your operator checking to see that you have maintained the certification, but it is not responsible for ensuring that you actually do the task. Same thing with a licence renewal, many companies will pay for this (they are not obliged to) but it is up to you when and how you perform this function.

There are responsibilities that are tasked to the individual even though they may be a "company requirement" such as medical and licence renewals. However these requirements are not classified as duties because they do not in themselves form any part of the employers business.

Anyway as you say "that is not the real question" I suppose the answer is that if this "issue" is sufficient to be of any real importance you are clearly living in nirvana and I want to know how to apply. :D

Actually I have done as you suggested and weighed up the pro's and cons :

Company pay for Licence renewal.
Company pay for medical renewals.
Company pay for loss of licence insurance.
Company pay for permanant health insurance.
Company pay for private medical insurance.
Company subsidise travel for me (some is free).
Company subsidise travel for family (some is free).
Company provide a final salary pension scheme (I contribute).
Company pay for my uniform.
Company pay me a good salary.
company pay me allowances.
Company feed and water me at work for free.
Company pay me full salary when I am unwell and not fit to work.

In return for this paltry level of security and enhancement and therefore I suppose the "cons"are :

Company expect me to work as rostered
Company expect me to be ready to work on the remaining 226 days a year (7 and a half months) that are not already days off or otherwise allocated to leave.
Company expect me to keep my licence and medical valid.


So on balance guess which way the scales tip ?

[silverknapper]

The company requires you to have a licence, of which the medical is a part. You are responsible for keeping the licence, end of story. I have watched this argument develop and really it is one of the most boring, jumped up posts I have seen on prune. Who cares if you have to spare an hour a year (or 6 months) to keep your job. Are you so busy that is impossible? Those who think their company owes them time for a medical should remember when they were starting and would have given their right arm to fly anything and get paid for it

[FaPoGai]

Bealzebub
Congratulations, apart from myself you seem to be the only one with any commonsense.
When the rest of the Primadonnas, get used to pushing a broom up Tooting Broadway they might yearn for the day's of wine and roses. not to mention all those allowances, in-flight meals. free medicals etc.

This is my last post on the subject, see you at the labour exchange girls.

Rgds. FPG

[JW411]

I have been at this game for a long time and I have without exception arranged my medical on a day off. I have always thought of it as being my personal problem and it has never ever occured to me to try and persuade any company that I have ever worked for to roster me for it as a duty.

I was recently asked by a newly made-up captain about what I thought about having to do a medical on a day off. The Company had told him that they don't mind paying for it but the arrangement for his medical was his problem. I told him that I had always done it that way and it was obvious that this was not the answer he wanted to hear.

A straw poll around the crewroom revealed that everyone else present did their medicals on days off.

Further questioning revealed that when he was a F/O he did his medicals on a day off. I shall say no more!

[Earthmover]

Bealzebub, despite having the benefit of only number 3, number 10 & number 11 of your list of 'Company pays' items, I agree with every word you wrote. The medical is my call, it's about two hours out of my day, including travel and I like the AME - he has a PPL and it's quite an entertaining interlude from the washing and ironing that I'm usually doing on my day off!

[BusBoy]

Get a grip guys, it's your licence which is not valid without a medical certificate. I don't care when I get it renewed, it is my responsibility to do so, I think were're lucky that the company actually pays for it, many are not so fortunate.
If your time is really that precious then book medical for beginning of a STBY then go to an AME near your base, get called out and you can still complete medical.

Get a life and focus on turning this company around you sad acts! It's a business not a charity!

Have a nice day...

[BRAKES HOT]

well said busboy. what a petty thread, at least they pay for it.

[FaPoGai]

I had hoped that this thread was played out.
However, I noticed on last evenings TV ( Holidays/Airlines from Hell )that MYT had the worst record for,cancellations and late departures of any major U.K holiday charter airline.

Perhaps this unfortunate situation arose due to the number of pilotes taking days off to have their medicals?

Positivly the last word.
FPG.

[koi]

Gentlemen,
This is fascinating stuff if you are that tight on time off with your airline. When I worked for Airtours at the start up, there was a lovely story about the founder chairman querying the stby and contactable days on our rosters. Not happy with the thought of paying pilots to hang around on full pay he mooted the idea of having them in stapling holiday brochures together at Helmshore when not strapped to an aircraft. Someone kindly pointed out the definition of crew duty and it went wonderfully quiet. Not all that crazy, considering BA Highlands and Islands pilots regularly handled the passenger baggage back in the early 80's to keep that operation going. Whenever I feel a little hard done by, which is not often, I flick open the back of the newspapers and check just how hard I would have to graft for so little satisfaction in London town and the feeling soon passes.
koi.