Do all Airline Pilots hate Single Pilot Operations?

[ssg]

Talking to an ex airline captain that told me how unsafe single pilot Citation flying is. I asked why. He had no reason. I fly under the single pilot exemption in three Citation models.

4050 Exemption

1) 200,000 hours logged..never an accident in 20 years.
2) Only 500 or so pilots have had it.

What do you guys think? :ok:

[Bumz_Rush]

How many log books would that fill.....

[leerpit35]

200,000 hours in 20 years, that's going some, that's 10,000 hours a year, Which is 59.52 weeks flying a year! Man I thought my company worked us, but we are obviously only part timers.

With CRM airlines appear not to like single pilot operations. GA seem to want you have single pilot experience before giving command.

[The Jetlag Kid]

200,000 hours in 20 years and no accidents? Actually, I know of at least one fatal accident in a single-pilot citation - last year with the owner-pilot and two of his guests died for unknown reasons. Pilot incapatation is suspected. Can you imagine the horror that those two passengers must have experienced for the last 3 to 4 minutes of their life?

I quess my beef isn't with single-pilot jet operations - the military has been doing it successfully since Frank Whittle first put kerosene in an aircraft fuel tank - but rather with single-pilot operators in the IFR environment. "Light" IFR, in a low workload area is one thing; "heavy" IFR in a place like the Northeast Corridor or the L.A. Basin (or Phoenix, or Dallas, or Chicago, etc...) is a completely different matter. There are times when, for safety sakes, you ought to have a second pilot on a Cessna 182.

One of the big lessons that all pilots need to learn if they want to grow old is what is safe isn't always legal and what is legal isn't always safe.

The Jetlag Kid

[PorcoRosso]

Am not flying a Citation, but a Beechcraft Kingair. Sometimes 2 crew but more often single pilot.
The thing is, that my copilot is my boss .... a PPL with ME & IR, but no good sense and absolutely no idea of what CRM is.
My conclusion is, that I have a higher workload when he is on board than when am alone ...
:p and this week, am away without him :p

[Citationkid]

Wasn't there some sports player (baseball I think) that was out trying to impress his friends in his Citation II and crashed? A magizine did an aritcle on this and had some thing like 5 single pilot crashes total. Not bad at all if you ask me. I've flown single with buddies in single pilot Citations and they had no problem at all. As long as you know what you're doing how hard can it be comparing it to a King Air?

EDIT: What about that CJ that crashed killing like 5 people last year? There were two certified pilots on board, but one has high, so he wasn't counted as a crew member.

[PorcoRosso]

I never meant to compare my Kingair job with a Citation one ... I Couldn't resist giving my view on this subject
BTW, who else is facing this situation ? ie Flying with boss as crewmember ?

[The Jetlag Kid]

You guys are missing the point. There is nothing more dangerous than two "qualified" pilots up front with ambigous (sp?) duties and responsibilities. Employing the "crew concept" is much more than merely having two jocks in the front seats. One guy up front is adequate as long as EVERYTHING is working well, the weather is playing along with you, and the ATC workload is light or moderate. Change any of the above three items and it doesn't matter how good you are (or think you are), you're going to need help - it doesn't matter whether you're in a Citation, King Air, or Cessna 182.

I agree with the comment about those guys who have "baby sitting" jobs - those who fly with their boss in one of the front seats. I've had a few of those jobs myself over the past 30 years that I've been a pro pilot - they tend to really suck. It takes more than simply having two pilots up front - you have to have predetermined responsibilities and duties and train as a crew. If you have two guys trying to do each other's job confusion will result with a corresponding loss of situational awareness and decrease in safety.

Jetguy

[PorcoRosso]

Bonjour JetlagKid

I couldn't agree more ....
The worst is, that my boss is convinced he really help me.
When he is on board, I am wasting my time to keep an eye on him and what he plans to do. I have to listen to endless departure briefing full of useless information; not mentionning his poor ATC english and regular confusion in clearance readback (Since 2 years, he never readback properly a SID with have each week on our airfield .... ) Since he is the Boss, he is "always right" therefore we can't even discuss technical points when we disagree .... A nice man indeed, but an awful crewmember.
Anyone else with similar experience ?

[Airking]

Is it possible ssg refers to 4050 airmen with the exemption to fly COMMERCIALLY single-hand ?

I did and sometimes still do fly single hand...
In my opinion, a cockpit with 2 well trained, crm orientated pilots is the safest option.
Now, there are a lot of pilots in the GA/ exec (Part 135) playgrounds are either not so crm-ish or not well trained or -worst case - both. They are DANGEROUS !

on the other hand, if youre well trained, organized and healthy, SH can be safe - exept for the incapactation scenario...


Porco:
I fly with my boss for more than 10 years...it´s tricky:
if YOU tell him what bull!!!! he´s is doin´you´ll be fired.
If a checker does it, he´ll never asked to do it again (the check)
if FSI (Flight Safety) does it, they´ll possibly loose the contract.

However, work out strategies. E.G. My Boss has the habit of pushing the AP / YD on short finals all the way - afterwards he complaints the trim is u/s, "why didn´t you have it fixed ?"
My "answer" is, after several times explaining why the trim is disconnected, on short finals my right hand is on the trimswitch to reset trim as soon as he pushes...
He sometimes wanted to set flaps when we where too fast...when I told him, "look we´re too fast" he would just say "come on they can handle that"....I got a quotation for replacing flap motor and drive and gave it to him the nex time we flew - he saw the price and guess what : we are perfectly in speed schedule when selecting Gear or flaps ever since.

[PPRuNeUser0215]

In my opinion, the Airlines don't all hate single pilot operation but some individual who work for them (and sometimes do the recruitment) who really have no idea of what they are talking about.
By that I mean they have never done it, as simple as that. Oh yeah, they have read about it or heard stories which gave them only enough knowledge to form an ill informed opinion and usually, an ever lasting one.
Single pilot operation can be very demanding but what makes the difference is who you operate for. i.e are they ready to put up the money on maintenance, training etc...

Lots of guys who now fly for the airlines (and some reputable ones), come from GA and have flown single pilot. No regret there for me, all great stuff.

[StressFree]

Porco rosso,
I did a spell of flying with my boss (and plane owner) as the other pilot............. It was a nightmare.

NEVER again.


:uhoh:

[excrab]

A very experienced (both single and multi-crew) Citation captain once said to me "why spend a small fortune having two engines in case one fails and then try to save money by only having one pilot?"

Single crew operations in the Citation are perfectly safe but proper multi-crew operations ie with real SOPs and two qualified pilots who both know what they are doing are a lot easier, especially in an emergency situation.

Most airline pilots that I know don't hate single crew operations, they just have no experience of it on which to judge.

[PPRuNe Towers]

Perhaps you're looking at this from the wrong angle and timeline.

Any perceived antipathy can have developed in the past when 'one man bands' were in a system that often allowed them to remain that way. That attitude can be prevalent in two crew outfits due to history and culture. The are still parts of the world where airline right seaters are there to yank gear and flaps.

As to today, it's a fact that many fleets in the airline world have their 'problem child.' Often just left to serve time until retirement as dealing with it comes under the heading of 'far too difficult.' That probably explains much of the problem in perception of single crew types in the modern world. Not fair but that's how it can be. It can be an uterly alien culture for you to have to consider.

It is entirely possibly that the entire pilot hierarchy of a significant airline came through an ab initio cadet system and have only done 10 or so solo hours in their careers - different mindset n'est ce pas???? Think about it.

Rob

[flaps8]

All the above have good points, and this is a really good GA subject.
Having done both Airline 2 crew, airtaxi 2 and single crew and Bizjet/ Turboprop 2 and sinlecrew, each has their own challenges etc, etc, but i can`t help agreeing that two engines are better than one, and two pliots are.............................., as long as its not the boss, or another experienced skipper, but that you both become part of a well trained crew.

[alibaba]

I think what flaps8 said is right.

You have to look at the demographic of the two crew cockpit actually flying.

Some work and some do not.

2 very experienced skippers can worsen situations.

It is generally a ticking time bomb!

Swissair is a good example of that. They were to busy arguing about a course of action to tackle the emergency than actually doing it. Even declaring PF and PNF can not sort the situation out completely.
I think many airlines have taken note of this and I think they have seen that there is no real cure either. Just rostering adjustments.

Don't get me wrong! I am not saying single crew is better, I am just trying to point out that many multi crew situations can make things worse! :uhoh:

[ssg]

Thanks for the responses....

I fly two Citation S/IIs under the Single Pilot Exemption. Not to be confused with flying a Citation designated as an SP model, specificaly allowing a single pilot captain. What this means is for the Citation S/II, V, Ultra, Encore, all two pilot aircraft, a guy like me with a special license (the 4050 Exemption) can fly those single pilot.

A caveat of this is that the CJ models, Citation IISP, Citation ISP don't need an exempted pilot to fly them, just a type ride.

Just a note, the 200,000 accident free hours in 20 years is just that. Only about 500 pilots have had the single pilot exemption, just those holders with the 4050 exemption. Thier hours are tracked, not the guys who fly SP and CJ models.

So why is there a single pilot exemption. The FAA back in the '80s, recognized that flying a faster, heavier jet, required being more ahead of the aircraft, and under the exemption you have to take a real checkride every year, in fact the 4050 is a type ride, that expires every year. Only about 75-100 pilots hold it annualy, and the failure rate is high. Typical Biz pilots attend reccurent training, but no checkride.

The single pilot citation accident that is being referred to is not with a 4050 exempt holder.

Ok, my two cents. Except for my jumping in a Gulfstream IV about 3 times a year, all my experience is as a corporate single pilot captain, I do go into LA regularly, and have had my engine outs and radio problems ect. Can it be busy sure, but it's fun if you on top of it. Flying in a crew, having to watch another guy, figure out who does what, and when, can and is confusing. Most cockpits have an experienced captain, and a newbie copilot, negating any real help, in any real emergency. I find a nice quiet single pilot environment to be almost boring at times, no matter what's going on. I't like I fly in a vacum. When people do sit up front, at times it can be a distraction, and that's when my 'time to shut up' finger sticks up. Can I drop dead? Sure, but I didn't on my 4 mile run this morning, so I think the odds of keeling over sitting on my butt are pretty slim.

When I look at accident causes, I don't think how an extra pilot could have helped I just think what the crew did wrong. Like the Alaska jackscrew problem. Two seasoned pilots spent 45 minutes screwing with the trim, getting worse. How did the copilot help? Or the Swiss air deal, pilots arguing all the way down. Like anything when you are alone, it's on you, no blame to shift, you figure out the right way to do things, because, there is no other way, you do what it takes. No egos, no personalities,no one to impress up there except the boss in the back, smooth ride, yes or no, good landing...yes or no. I think in the end many crew type pilots have never done it single pilot, and couldn't or can't conceive of the increased work load. Honestly do it long enough, and you simply do it. I don't long for a copilot, even when the conversation has come up, because it's one more person to watch, train, manage, worry about, etc...it's just easier to do it myself, and for the last 20 years for me it's worked.

I have my challenges, but they are not in the cockpit. Because I manage two corporate jets, it's just me to get things fixed, cleaned, pulled out, fueled up, flight plans, etc. Might be nice to have a person take some of that off of me. But if he screws up, it's back on me. Just easier to do it myself.

Sincerely,

SSG

[ssg]

Just a clarification. At last check, there have been logged about 300,000 hours now under the single pilot exemption. That is pilots who take the checkride every year, ect, not those that just fly a 550SP, CJs, ect, there is a difference.

Any of us in this forum with any experience realizes it doesn't take a rocket scientist to fly a plane, but two pilot crews keep crashing. Hence rather then teach pilots(crews) IFR skills, they required TAWS to deal with CFIT.

Not one pilot, 500 +/-, operating under the single pilot EXEMPTION, has had an incident or accident, according to Wichita, who handle Cescom, and dealing with the FAA on this issue.

CRM, a realitively new concept for those that saw it's inception about 15 years ago is to deal with airline pilots, especialy the weak FO trying to tell the captain they are headed for trouble.

Sooner or later, everyone will come to the conclusion that a better pilot is what we need, not just more equipment and more pilots up front. I wonder how many planes will go down untill people admit that?

[Paint The Sky Pink!]

I am still stuck back on the 200,000 hours! Man thats a lot of hours:confused:

PTSP!

[Stan Woolley]

It's easy to start believing single crew is safe because there's nobody to tell you when you're screwing up and don't know it.

300000 hours between 500 pilots is only 600 each, maybe the same as ten months hours flown at a medium airline,I'd hardly expect an accident in that time.

A well trained and motivated two crew cockpit is by far the safest option in my opinion.I also found that there are lots of people who think they know what that means but really don't IMO.

I flew single crew night freight on KingAirs for a year and saw two mates killed in seperate accidents in that short time. Flew a Lear for a while with no SOP's and that was just about as bad!

[ssg]

On another thread about 'Is raw data neccessary' it further illustrates a trend of pilots subordinating thier duties/capabilities to another crew member or equipment.

Your right in that 300000 hours of no accidents is probably not a big deal iwth an airline in ten months, but it does illustrate that in 20 years, with various pilots, no sops, varying conditions, varied airports, ect, not one accident.

I think it stems from the tough initial checkride, single pilot in the aircraft, insurance co. further limiting who will do the flying, and further only so many boss's will feel so comfortable with one guy up front on a dark and stormy night. That said, it's quite a vetting process.

Most single pilot people I know, that have the exemption, feel a copilot is a liability. If one person knows what they are doing, then like a surgeon having another set of hands in a guys chest, just gets in the way.

I used to screw with a GIV buddy of mine, and sit on the right side and just slowly reach up, and touch a circut breaker, a switch, ect, and I could see that he was watching me, he'd laugh. He knows, that he had to watch me, he's the PIC, I just increased his workload. I haven't yet seen a situation where an FO makes the captains job easier, other then to clean the plane at the end of the day. One experienced captain told me, 'what if you get busy, lose and engine, flying around LA' I answered, do you think managing my copilot, having him running the radios, watching him do this and that is going to help.

Every plane that has crashed lately, corporate aircraft, were flown two pilot. Now maybe someone can explain how two pilots were so helpfull right before they slammed in.

[Stan Woolley]

' Now maybe someone can explain how two pilots were so helpfull right before they slammed in. '

Of course there are two crew accidents but how many didn't 'slam in' because one of the pilots realised something dangerous was happening? We only read about the failures.

One of the factors you mention is 'no sop's', what does that mean ?I don't see how you can have a safe operation of any kind without them, single crew or otherwise.

All I know is that in the simulator particularly I have seen many examples where one pilot would be swamped by the workload and two good guys are working flat out to stay ahead of the game.(Boeing 737/757/767)

The Citation in particular had a reputation for being a good simple aeroplane.A friend who flew both the Citation and the King Air single crew thought the King Air was much more challenging.

Personally I'd love to have a go at single crew Citation operations- might happen you never know.

[prospector]

ssg,

Impressed with your posts, the analogy to the surgeon is very good.

It seems that every accident now is not caused by someone stuffing up, its the GPS, or the GPWS, or something that needs to be, but has not been invented yet, makes one wonder how one avoided hitting the ground for so many years.

The first commandment appears to have been lost, "Thou shalt not make a stuff up or the ground will arise and smite thee"

The accident record you quote of people who operate under the 4050 exemption speaks for itself. Must be something to do with the selection process, definitely horses for courses.

Like the bit about GIV buddy, an extra pair of hands is just something else to keep an eye on.

Prospector

[pilotbear]

My goodness aren't you lot full of (sxxt) your own self importance. You are just what CRM was designed to cure. If you have an attitude with your CO-PILOT like that you won't work together ever.
It is a matter of record the number of accidents caused by Captains who thought they knew it all and wouldn't listen or work as a team.
The sooner people like you retire or expire the better:yuk:

As for single pilot OPS I have also done the real single pilot IFR deal in a Cessna 310 etc. in the ice and weather, in the crap, with bits not working when you need them. So, the difference an extra person even on the radio makes is very useful and should be valued.
If your CO PILOT isn't doing what he/she should it is YOUR fault, you are Captain.......

[prospector]

pilotbear,
Please explain how you think the CRM was working in the latest Air France incident in Canada??.

I do believe P2 was the handling pilot, were they still having a polite discussion on whether to go round again or not whilst the runway was rapidly being used up??

Who is responsible? is the accident a joint effort or does it belong to the Captain, or as P2 was the handling pilot is it his accident?? does it not matter as long as they were talking to each other politely??

You take a lot upon yourself when you make statements like "The sooner people like you retire or expire the better".
Who are the people like us? I have made my living flying aeroplanes for some forty odd years, the vast majority of it single pilot, no broken aeroplanes, no hurt pax, no feeling deprived because no one looking over my shoulder to check, no one to work the radio, not full of self importance, but self confidence.

If you were not happy on your own in the C310 then you did the right thing and moved on.

Prospector

[theWings]

Hey ssg,

Don't know if you are actually right or wrong about the help or hinderance offered by P2 because I haven't the experience. But I certainly do have an opinion.

And given what you've said in this thread I think that, from a purely ideological point of view, you might have answered your own question ;). Are you sure you don't want to distinguish a bit more between single-pilot a/c operated with 2 crew, multi-pilot a/c operated single-pilot under exemption and multi-pilot a/c operated multi-crew. Might help your case a bit...

Either way, I'd suggest that you feature, in a less that flattering light, in MCCs all over the industry!

the Wings

[pilotbear]

you just don't get it do you..what the hell has talking to each other politely got to do with anything...CRM MCC has gone right over your head at FL600. IF the captain let the other pilot make a mistake then he was not monitoring correctly, that is the job of the non flying pilot.
Self confidence is fine, Self worship is not. You have been lucky not to have an incident that is all.....and I did not say I was not happy in a C310, I loved the challenge but there is a time when you are wise enough to realise that you can get away with only so much, I like the multi crew environment, I like the team player element..the job is easy and very satisfying working together.
Guess you have to like people really eh?

the Wings, yeh I've seen those MCC videos and I have a whole bookshelf of Safety and Accident books (sad I know) where these guys have a starring role.:ok:

[FlyMD]

ssg,

I take exception at your "analysis" of the Swissair 111 accident. 1. The airplane was doomed from the moment the first indication of smoke was perceived. Several sessions in the sim showed that even with a lightning fast reaction to the first anomaly, descending with Mmo/Vmo to land at the nearest airfield, about 1min30s were still missing to make it on the ground.
2. The pilot were NOT arguing all the way down: after a brief discussion, FP and NFP roles were assumed and the FO was flying the airplane towards Halifax while the Captain was trying to remedy the smoke. Discussion ensuing was system-related mostly, calm, and professional.
Having flown with the pilots involved, and a lot of other professionals in the 2-man cockpit, I feel insulted by statements like yours.

While I have no grounds to dispute your claims about the single-pilot environment, I can see plainly from your posts that you lack understanding of what a 2-man cockpit is supposed to be, and I would be grateful if your next posts were a bit more factual, thank you ever-so-much.

[BizJetJock]

OK, here's my tuppenyworth as someone who flies single pilot on citations as well as two crew on heavier stuff.
The 500 series Citation is a nice simple aeroplane, and is easier to fly single pilot than many more complex aircraft with two guys who know what they're doing. If on the other hand the other guy doesn't know what he's doing, that makes things even harder, whether he's an inexperienced guy who's learning (and we all had to do that once - remember?) or an owner. Having said that, if you're worth the money you're paid you should be able to get him doing things that he (or she) is cabable of that take some of the work off you. That's the M bit of CRM.
On the subject of owner drivers, I've never had a problem with telling them how to fly the aircraft as long as you explain why - most people who've got the money to own a jet didn't get there by taking "because I say so" as an explanation.
As several people have said, two experienced guys can be the worst combination. I've seen a few f***-ups because there was no clearly defined Captain/FO roles. The trend for private owners to want two captains isn't always a good thing!
But I think that anyone who thinks another body in the cockpit is a hindrance, even in a simple aeroplane that is certificated for single pilot, is just showing up their own incompetence, and I don't want to fly with them - even though I'm the Captain.

[PorcoRosso]

most people who've got the money to own a jet didn't get there by taking "because I say so" as an explanation.


Unfortunately, some of them did exactly that ;)

My boss was a kind of "I can do it" type ... but absolutely unable in fact (especially in planes ... )
Managing him in the cockpit was a challenging task : it was my first job, I was inexperienced on his plane, and inexperienced in general ;) Could have been the perfect combiantion to screw up . Quickly, I was able to overcome the "who is in charge" question , and it turned mostly all right . But since he was never trained in MCC , had not a clue about CRM, he was a burden as P2, and I had an increased workload than when I was alone ...

[Semaphore Sam]

No. No. No.No. No. No. No. I this 15 characters?