Netjets claim to have the BEST pilots!!

[silverhawk]

Outrageously, a Netjets spokesman recently claimed in The Times to have the best pilots. Can he really expect the world at large to fall for this marketing propoganda?

Do their runway incursions by a training captain and repeated alt busts on a sid by a fleet manager not demonstrate the true lack of quality and training standards?

[Ralph Cramden]

What rubbish!!! Net Jets have a great PR dept. They are able to sell the CEO's of the world their concept of cheap corporate air travel. It is actually very expensive and bottom of the barrel. The only pilots who will fly for them are people who can't get anything better. The working conditions are terrible the pay is poor. You figure it out.

[Flintstone]

The only pilots who will fly for them are people who can't get anything better.

That's a fairly broad brush you're painting with there.

How's the view from the ivory tower? ;)

[RoboAlbert]

I bet the views lovely, air is probably a bit thin though.....

[Capt Crash]

"Do their runway incursions by a training captain and repeated alt busts................true lack of quality and training standards?"

Nobody's perfect and mistakes happen with every flying operation. How often do you hear a Skyshare call sign in the across Europe? All day, every day in fact over 100 flights a day so some minor incidents may happen from time to time.

Nobody slagged off the Easy crew who taxied into a tug in EDI this week so give us a break. Ever incident has some mitigating circumstances.

I must agree with the pay issue, PAY RISE NEEDED please DM.

[silverhawk]

Capt Crash

Minor incidents

crossing runway threshold with a landing ac at 1/2 mile is not minor, nor is starting engines with fuel bowser parked directly behind ac, nor is an ac with loss of comms on lhs whenever above fl150 for more than a year, nor is fleet manager advocating getting airborne with stall warning u/s (contrary to mel). I could go on, but what's the point?

my point is that their marketing dept cannot really expect the world at large to really believe that NJE have the best pilots.

At best they have an average selection on the line.
In reality they have pilots in management positions who cannot operate an airplane to save their lives and who dodge tough examiners in the sim to maintain their positions.



Charging the highest fees and inferring that costs relate directly to flight safety is purely nonsensical and is just an instrument to reduce the losses of NJE.

[Ralph Cramden]

Well Flintstone, the fact is Netjets is not a great company to work for. If you as a pilot had a choice between working for a Fortune 500 Co. or a large European company or Net Jets which would you chose? I don't for a moment suggest there are not some excellent pilots putting in their time at Net Jets. What I do suggest is that they all have their resumes out there and will leave in a heartbeat when anything at all opens up; because almost anything will be better. It's a no brainer.
As for the view..it is clear and unobstructed by smoke and mirrors.:cool:

[Flintstone]

Ralph

The only pilots who will fly for them are people who can't get anything better

Erm....wouldn't that apply to anyone, anywhere? No matter where you were working, if a 'better' offer came up you'd take it. Wouldn't you? Surely THAT'S the no brainer.

And to answer your question(s), no I don't think I would move to either an airline or single owner. Back and forth to the same destinations, max hours and only two or three days off just wouldn't suit me and being on standby 24 hours a day, seven days a week doesn't float my boat either.

Some of the Netjets pilots want to go to the airlines, sure. On the other hand NJE have plenty of applications from airline employees.

A friend of mine told me the other day that most of his colleagues in a budget airline (company 'A') would give their eye teeth to work for a charter outfit (company 'B') operating from the same airport while most of those already employed by company B want to go to company A.

Something to do with the colour of grass.

I'm not saying things are perfect at Netjets. Like anywhere else there are things that I do like about it and some I don't but I'd much rather try to work at changing things from the inside than whinge and bitch but do nothing.

If it doesn't pay off I'll move on but at least I'll have made the effort.

[pilot dude]

The way it has been in the past is that the pilots who got rejected at the NJE interview ar the ones that bitch the hardest.

PD

[Tidan De Sheveld]

As an airline pilot, I find this discussion interesting, but it's hard to equate it without knowing what Netjet crews do get paid.

Could someone give me ball park figures.

All operations have 'incidents', but I am surprised at the amateurish nature of some of the incidents mentioned. Assuming they have truth to them, they suggest a lower standard then I would have expected.

[doubleu-anker]

pilot dude

What about the people who have applied and meet the NJE experience requirements (more than 10 times over in some cases) and never been given a response? Forget the interview.

This of course is an indication of the type of outfit they are and how they treat their personal. Everything I have read on this and other threads about NJ has supported my view.

A decent company will always respond to an applicant (ppl's included) unless stipulated in the recruitment advert eg. only shortlisted candidates will be contacted.

I suspect most applications are electronic, this day and age. To reply, is quiet simple really. 2 clicks. Reply and send.

[flyer75]

NJE did respond to me but to tell me they would take aboard each applicant if they could but that the airline business was very selective on skills and experience...NO !!!!
I more than met their requirements eventhough I have no jet time but multi turbop...maybe thats why they at least wrote me back..
I believe the market is awful at the moment and airlines which dont answer Resumes will have to bite teir own ass when the big pilots shortage comes along.

I cant wait to write back a Thank you but no thank you letter to airlines that call me a year later for an interview..

A part from that Corporate is hard to get in..no doubt..I know of someone whos been an AIR Tours F/O on the 757 for years and who decided to fly a G5 as Captain in the middle East....go figure..

Flyer75

[doubleu-anker]

Well NJE "heavy weights"??

Still waiting for a response.

You guys are very quick off the mark to respond to other guy's posts who attack your beloved NJE.

Not so easy to defend the indefensible/inexcusable, is it.

I rest my case.

[doubleu-anker]

No, I don't think I am being ridiculous.

Just interested to find out why, NJE fail to respond to legitimate pilot applications. Nothing wrong with that is there??

Since the beginning of this year have failed to extract an sensible response to this issue.

Like to keep this topic going from time to time, to counter the great things that are spun about this outfit.

[pilot dude]

When NJE puts an add in flight they select as the letters come in. they dont wayt for all 6000 responces to arrive, yes 6000 on average, the rest they select and the ones that qualify get put on file and if not needed destroyed after 6 months, so in order to qualify you dont need 10 times the required hours, you just need to be damned fast and apply via fax or email within 12 hours ater publication of the add in flight international

PD.

p.s. there are much more big airlines in europe that dont reply after sending a CV so NJE is certanly not the only one. And do you really expect them to send between 6000-12000 refusal letters a year?????

[doubleu-anker]

Thanks for the response.

Just as I thought. First in first served. Law of the jungle.

Do they use this method when selecting canidates for promotion etc.?

[pilot dude]

First in first served. Law of the jungle.

No law of the jungle, cause you still have to meet the criteri as set (ATPL, 1500hrs, 500 multi). which is a lot more than the average airline like Easy, Ryan etc where all you need is a CPL plus a bag full of money,

and trust me within the first day the still get about 600-700 cv's so there is still plenty to choose from not to many will be hired with 1500/500 minimums

pd.

[bluesafrica]

Pilot Dude,
Is it true that NJE is not too keen to hire pilots with a "lot" of experience, like over 10.000 hrs? I hear that they prefer pilots with much lower experience level to "form" them more easily.
Blues

[pilot dude]

Well NJE's main concern is that pilot's that have a strong "airline" backgrond have problems fitting in in an organisation where you have a second job next to being pilot and that is beeing "caretaker" of their VVIP pasenger which in the eyes of the passenger is actually more important than safe flying (not saying that safe flying is not a concern of NJE because it is)

remember one accident with NJ in general (not just europe) will cost them customers.

pd

[Stan Woolley]

Well NJE's main concern is that pilot's that have a strong "airline" backgrond have problems fitting in in an organisation where you have a second job next to being pilot and that is beeing "caretaker" of their VVIP pasenger which in the eyes of the passenger is actually more important than safe flying (not saying that safe flying is not a concern of NJE because it is)

I made the move from Airline to Flexjet and back to airline because it was obvious to me that the 'caretaker ' role was more important than the safe operation of the aircraft in too many peoples eyes.

Airlines have their problems but the ones I have worked for had training and safety attitudes light years ahead of my 'corporate experience', basically it was GASH!! :yuk:

[LGW Vulture]

Flanker...this is a serious concern, if true. In whose eyes was the caretaker role more important?

I have been with the people that really matter in NJE and they advocate that they have a safety and professional attitude second to no-one. Is Flexjet different in their approach? Or did you work for one of the Flexjet partners instead of the scheme itself?

Whilst both aspects of the job are important, the safety aspect must override all other roles.

Finally Flanker, was that the reason you left? Too many safety concerns?

[Stan Woolley]

LGW Vulture

I worked for Flexjet Europe when they had their dedicated fleet and crews, I don't know what the setup is now.

And yes it was serious enough in my view to cause me to resign without a job.

It's all about backgrounds and perceptions, some people genuinely believed they were a good operation but I and others had serious concerns.

PM me if you want more info.

[StressFree]

Flanker,
Hows it going old man? Still Orange I see. I've been doing some contract training for your lot lately, some good chaps coming through..........

Regards,

:cool:

[LGW Vulture]

Flanker

Thanks for that. I really hope the operators in the Flexjet scheme look to safety first and foremost.

Things have changed a lot since the scheme was revised and thrust upon the independents. I can only hope that your experiences will NOT be repeated.

Especially as the independents in the scheme will also look to safeguard other work in addition to Flexjet.

I'm not sure whether I want any insight into historical mis-focus!!

If it is still happening, then I want to hear everything.

The thoughts of the Aspen GIII incident, where the pax made vital decisions instead of the crew MUST not be repeated. Even though this was nothing to do with Flexjet!

Safe flying...

[Daifly]

As Flexjet now operate solely with third party suppliers, any "commercial pressure" is only from outside of their operation. Unlike Netjets, one assumes?

[Bumz_Rush]

I resigned from the original flex, having been in since day -1, until we saw the light at the end of the tunnel, and NO more funding expected.
They operated as a very safe operation.
I never experienced any attempt to pressure me into any unsafe action.
I have applied to Netjet, and as over 10,000 hrs and x Flexjet, realise with hindsite that I wasted a postage stamp.

[doubleu-anker]

Did you manage to obtain a response??

[Bumz_Rush]

D-A, yes I actually received a prompt reply, I did not fit their profile, as there are so many able and qualified guys out there.......

[RedBelt]

Flat Spin,

I was just trying to honoring the conditions under netjets pilots work every day. I believe you know there's no such thing as "The Best Pilots"

[BBCapt]

....to mis-quote ( I believe ) Mandy Rice-Davis 'well they would say that wouldn't they'.....

[doubleu-anker]

Hello, the NJE roadshow. Whatever next?

Bit too much chaff amongst the 6000 (1st 24 hours) or so hopefuls from the last series of adverts?

[V1 Rotate]

Anyone have an Email address for NetJets in the UK ?

V1 :ok:

[activewaypoint]

NJE do send people to flight safety twice a year which is a major contribution to making their pilots the best they can be. Whether they actually are is obviously a source of some debate. Another factor is the selection process. You can't send rubbish to flight safety and expect great pilots to come back. Yo!

[tottenkopf]

all this is very interesting, but could someone be kind enough to be forthcoming with a summary of the respective salaries of flex and netjets.

it would be much appreciated.

[bluesafrica]

Bumzzz,
I think that you received such reply from NJE as they really do not like to have "experienced pilots", period. I here from many sources that if you have over 10.000 hrs you can forget NJE.
Maybe they think that pilots go bad like old w:mad: s after that...
Enjoy the life!
Blues

[Bumz_Rush]

AWP: I agree but you can send a monkey to FSI, and get a rating........
Two trips to FSI is a very expensive loss of resources for any company, but yest it is the best flight safety enhancement that is currently available.
TOTTON: Flex Jet do not employ pilots they subcontract out all the work. So there is No Flexjet salary. In FlexFet Europe, we were paid very very well, but went to FSI once per year, (some checks carried out in the aircraft), but I suspect that in its last breaths FJE sent crews to FSI twice a year. We bitched at this.
Then they closed down....no connection I am assured.

[doubleu-anker]

Now why does that rumour not surprise me?

Yes just as I thought.

"NJE don't like to employ experienced pilots." The explanation is probably quite simple really. Any pilots with more than 10,000 hrs probably have more experience than the "management" pilots.

[lucille]

"W"-anker....why the vitriol?

Regarding experience - its all about quality not quantity.

Other than for chest beating in some bar, what value is 1 hour repeated 4000 times?

What value are 3000 poor quality hours where the safe completion of each flight is a testimony to the contribution of the ATC system, the aircraft designers and in fact to everyone involved except to the 2 guys up the front who to this day remain blisfully unaware of their very serious shortcomings.

I have see guys with 3000 hours and guys with 15,000 hours. I can assure you that hours in the log the log book are not a good predictor to performance.

The day of the mega-houred hairy chested "ace" are over. Its all about ability, clear thinking and good management skills. Sorry.

[bluesafrica]

Lucille,
I will agree with you, up to certain extend. Please, be assured that all those hairy chested " high time" jockeys are gone through the exactly same FSI training and checks than NJE pilots today. Only difference being that they been there more often than these "manager pilots". Aren't you worried that in few years NJE pilots may also be too experienced, if they stay in business long enough.
Fact seems to be that NJE prefer to hire less experience crews and they should tell that in their adds.
Blues:E

[doubleu-anker]

lucille

I agree with you that experience alone is not the be all to end all.

However a client, or a owner I am sure, given the choice would prefer to fly with a crew, that is both competent and experienced. Rather than just competent.

I know quite a few kids and simulator maintenance engineers for example that could run rings around the average pilot with regards to piloting skills in the simulator both glass and NG. So what.

There is an old and very true saying in aviation. "There is no substitute for experience". This can only be gained in the air. Not in a classroom, not in a bar, not in a briefing room or on pprune for that matter. A good indicator of a pilot's experience is is his/her total flying time.

[BBCapt]

The heart of the matter is that elusive quality called 'Captaincy'.

Those who have it know just what I refer to, those who don't aren't quite ready to step up the plate, yet.

I am pleased to say that I have worked with many corporate crews from low to high timers who have obviously got 'it', and certainly in the Bizjet world its a real amalgam of qualities; personality, experience, and training. Sadly however, it can still be lacking in spade-loads from the most unexpected quarters.

[tottenkopf]

B.R,

Could you put a figure on 'very, very well'?

If i understand you correctly flex had a number of operators doing their work, so the pay and conditions depended on which subcontract outfit pilots worked for. any idea what the average/minimum was?

no doubt you've probably guessed, i'm not in corporate. so any help in figuring out if it's worth the effort and how much I could expect as a salary. would be appreciated.

thanks

[bluesafrica]

tottenkopf,

I think that Flex salaries were UKL 50-70.000. Low end for Lears and higher for Challenger crews.
Blues

[Bumz_Rush]

As my African friend quotes the Flexjet salary was of that magnitude. plus overtime!!!!, per diems!!!!!! and luncheon vouchers!!!!!!
As to the new Flexjet operators, I have no idea as to salaries, but would suspect similar. They are well establised companies.
There must be one or two Guys who can answer your question better than what I can.

BBCapt is 101% correct.

There are Guys out there who should not be let loose in Toys R us let alone Airports.

They have obtained a rating, and as a result of being in the right place at the right time, and a suitable coloured nose managed to get a position of responsability.

I wish BBC all the best in his recent appointment, and hope to see him soon.

[Airking]

quote:
However a client, or a owner I am sure, given the choice would prefer to fly with a crew, that is both competent and experienced. Rather than just competent.
_______________________________________

I´m in the business for 12 years, logged some 5000 hrs.
The sad truth is:
they (Clients) are willing to spend loads of money to get from a to b. BUT, if they can save, say 200€ on a trip that costs 10000€, they´ll go for the cheaper offer.
They nearly never ask for the qualification of the cockpit personell or the experience.
Normal reaction is: well they´re ok for the authorities, thats enough.

Now, any company sending their pilots to FS or similar twice a year will build a competent bunch of Pilots - at least the flying is done properly then.
In smaller companies beeing a exec pilot is much more - but at NJE there is a lot organisation around.

Having said that, I met a friend who is with NJE since nearly 4 years and he is sick of that company to an extend that I could hardly believe...mainly over roster and duty stuff (I won´t go deeper into it)

Back to silverhawks original post :
it is marketing, nothing else - the good point is, NJE is often very expensive which leads back to my first point - they´ll not be considered by the majority of our clients because of their price.

[RedBelt]

I'm sorry guys,

You talk alot about scatered problems that are the consequences of the root problem.... MANAGEMENT.

Just take one of the examples

I know one Captain that once stalled a G-IV during cruise.

This guy did that while he was a Director of Standards.

[doubleu-anker]

RedBelt

Some furious and heavy handed editing being carried on your post. I read the 1st version also.

Can't NJE stomach the truth?

[bluesafrica]

I never thought much of these new type managerial pilots...
Fact seem to be that pilots make worse possible managers. Better stick to cockpit only and leave other duties to professionals as well. Or other way around!
Blues:E

[silverhawk]

doublue-anker

it's not that NJE can't stomach the truth. The furious editting in some postings may be due to NJE's past history of heavy handed legal actions coupled with very expensive gagging orders when dealing with disgruntled employees after they have resigned.

NJE know the truth already, they just don't want the customers to hear it.

[doubleu-anker]

LOL

Good one!! I like that one!!:ok:

[bidouf]

HI

Being in that company for few months now , I can affirm that all the pilot sI have been flyiing with are really professional , efficient safe .

I'm sure it's not the only company in this case , but as a passenger I would be very confident .
As far as I'm concerned , I really think it's a great company . I'm pease to do that job . I's exciting , various , tiring of course , but pleasant .

Well ? Being tired when I do what I like , doesn't matter . I thought it was the advantage of pilot job : being happy going to work ... Surprisingly , after reading all these posts , it looks not so obvious for some of you .

May be , you're ready to change .

However , I wish all the best for all of you , JUST BE HAPPY , your life is unic and just belong to you : don't waste it .

BIDOUF

[Wrong Sisters]

Bidouf - Like most companies NJE has some very good and experienced pilots and I have not flown with one who has raised my eyebrows yet either. However, I'd be interested to see your reply when you've been in 12 months as I think you'll have different view of the comany by then.

To the original - thread "NJ claim to have the best pilots". No company in aviation can lay that claim because we don't have league tables. I have seen that quote in literature and it is a quote from PGA golfer Lee Westwood. Lee is a bloody good golfer but knows little of the detail of our industry. The sales stuff is slightly misleading but thats true of virtually every company.

Good thread and interested to hear more about the Marquis Jet claim.

[LGW Vulture]

With a high profile name just jumping ship to Marquis, I would be very surprised if they remained in trouble in the short term. The longer term may be different however.

[Second Grace]

Several requests in this thread for some detail on the NetJets salaries... and yet no answer...

Could someone give an accurate thumbnail sketch please?

Thanks,

SG

[pilot dude]

F/O all types exept falcon €40.000
Falcon €42.500

Capt all types exept falcon €65.000
Falcon €67.500

start salaris

Happy now

PD

[Second Grace]

If you really mean Euros, then, no, I wouldn't be!

But thanks for the information. Just wonder why it took so long for someone to post it...

[LVL CHG]

A couple of questions that might have already been addressed:

1. Do the Falcons fly over the pond to the States and beyond?

2. How far afield do the Falcons fly - Africa and Asia too?

3. Let's say you start as a Bravo or Excel FO, what would be your likely career progression - straight to Captain on type or could you jump to Hawker Captain if growth happens?

4. Lastly, if pilots are hired onto the Falcon or Hawker vs. the citations, do they typically have more experience/hours?

[bluesafrica]

Pilot Dude

With those salaries your pilots must really love their jobs! I would be afraid that some of the "better ones" may look something better paid when available...
Netjet salaries seem to be well below what Flexjet used to pay.
How they say , pay peanuts and get monkies...
Blues:hmm:

[doubleu-anker]

I think if you have a loyal group of pilots they should be looked after. Decent pay.

I've seen it time and again. If they not looked after, then when the market picks up, as it surely will, there will be a mass exodus of pilots. Then in reality that company will just be a training school for companies who are prepared to treat pilots better.

It must be remembered the pilots apart from the aircraft, are a company's greatest asset.

[lucille]

Money is but one variable in the equation - and not necessarily the the most important one either (see Maslow).

A lot if us are happy working for slightly (!!) less where we get a reliable roster, where we work strictly under Part 135 rules, where we dont fly under-maintained aircraft, where we are under no pressure to do anything we feel is unsafe and finally where we feel there is some job security.

I know of a crew on approx. USD264K (tax free and thats not counting per diems and tips) who have done ( and presumably still do) 27 stick hours in a 42 hour duty period - and thats a 2 crew operation. When they go on a trip, they dont know know whether it is for 5 days or 3 months. Apart from their annual vacation, they are on standby 24/7.
Is this safe?, is this proffesional? are they happy on the big bucks?...(clue...: .. same answer to all 3 questions).

And guess what?...the aviation manager is not a pilot.

In this light, peanuts seem a pretty generous emolument don't you think?

In the meantime, I keep looking for that perfect job on $300K where I get to tell the boss when I fell like going flying, where we should go and how much fuel I want to land with...ahhh nirvana!.
------------

Back to the experience issue. : Shortly after my last post, I noticed a poster in Basle which stated :

"Good Judgement comes from Experience; Experience comes from Bad Judgement".

The logic is both glib and amusing. Well at least I got a laugh out of it.!:D

[doubleu-anker]

Are you not aware? The French are the new master race of Europe!!!

[bluesafrica]

What do you mean only Europe? Every where my friend!
Blues:E

[activewaypoint]

Well, according to their own PR...."it's a tsunami out there" . People are falling over themselves to take up netjets shares......they're apparently within a year of breaking into profit.:D

[flyer75]

I got a nice reply but no interview...and im FRENCH...
!!!!...

Flyer75

[NdekePilot]

I just hope Netjets don't treat their fractional customers with the same disdain they treat their pilot applicants with. They preach respect and courtesy at their open days but wouldn't know it if they choked on it.
For all their power and wealth, they can't even set up an autoresponder to acknowledge receipt of a CV....only company I've ever dealt with that totally ignores its potential employees.
FlexJet management are lightyears ahead of these guys.:sad:

[Chris Higgins]

:D


Well sorry guys, but I'm going to have to step in here!

I'm 35 years old have 8,900 hours, seven type ratings, two degrees am licenced in Australia, New Zealand and the United States. I can work anywhere in the world with three different passports.

I choose to fly for Netjets here in the United States of America.

We have more Air Force One pilots than any airline. We have the equivalent of squadrons filled with combat experienced fighter and heavy-bomber pilots, who are quite often called back to reserve duty. Guys, I hate to rain on your already rainy day, but, Netjets does employ the best pilots in the world.

We have over 430 jets that go to more than 150 countries a year. With over 5,000 airports in the United States alone, yes, there will be the odd problem with lack of local familiarity.

I like to fly modern, clean, well-equipped aircraft that have good factory support. I enjoy having the strength of good financial backing and the security of my job. I like having time off with my family.

Netjets doesn't payroll deduct my uniform, payroll deduct my health insurance and still pays me a meal allowance when I am on the road and being served restaraunt quality catering. I have a good retirement and a friendly management that offers a good sick leave policy and flexibility in scheduling.

Ladies and Gentlemen, these are the facts!

I hope you all find the happiness in your personal and professional lives that I have found.

My last job before corporate was teaching the Boeing 757/767. I have friends calling me weekly asking for assistance in getting onto Netjets.

[doubleu-anker]

Read your post with interest.

I also got a whiff of nepotism.

God bless the United States.

[Chris Higgins]

Born and raised in Australia, didn't know anyone. They have accepted me as one of their own.

[bluesafrica]

WOW!
Now we know the facts, at last! Thank you very much for your very informative post.
Blues:E

[bluesafrica]

As we know by now, the combat pilots are the topguns for bizjets. Wonder if Netjet will install hardpoins to Hawkers?
Blues:E

[Chris Higgins]

Well, all I can say is that it's great we all have our point of view.

Last time everyone agreed and thought it was a good idea was Nazi Germany. History shows us that is a bad idea in itself!

No we don't have hard points on the Hawkers, but if you don't believe the Americans teach their fighter pilots well, go take a survey in Iraq.

Anyway, I'm originally from the outback and flew Cessna 210s before I came Stateside in 1990.

We have a good mix of civillian/military/instructor/airline pilots that all seem to put the wheels and flaps down the same way we are all trained to do.

I am not here to suggest that every system is perfect and we know that pilots by nature are individuals. I don't think that it's possible to make a perfect cookie-cutter cockpit crew. I have been in this game since 1983 and this is by far the best company I've worked for...and yes that includes my stint at the airlines.

[bluesafrica]

All joking beside, like happyjack says European Netjets are maybe runned differently. Seems to have a lot of unhappy campers in.
What comes for airforce records, US airforce had no resistance whatsoever from Iraqi airforce. History don't so US airforce aces with large victory accounts like in Europe. I think that the best records are with little Finnish airforce per pilot/victories. Maybe can't compare todays US airforce but in my experience airforce flying do not prepare pilot very well for bizjets, you must agree.
Enjoy your life with Netjets! Good to hear also from happy pilot view!
Blues:E

[mercuray]

Whilest I do believe Chris Higgins is correct in what he says about Netjets,U.S.A ,believe me, I can also confirm that this does not apply to Netjets,Europe. The Companies share the same name only & there it stops!!!

[Chris Higgins]

I am not here to defend or offend anyone about US Foreign Policy.

I am a civillian pilot flying for the best employer in the world. I am proud to serve in that capacity with a broad spectrum of pilots from varying backgrounds.

If you want to fly for a growing industry, the fractional industry is where it is at. Flexjet is the only segment of the American market that is not growing.

I chose to fly corporate for the variety of destinations and the close contact with high quality clientele. My desire for a stable paycheck surpasses my desire to fly a large heavy jet. I am happiest going to Barbados, Bermuda or Aspen with the great crew I fly with and a happy customer in the back.

Perhaps if I had stayed in Australia I would have flown the FA-18 or gone to Qantas. I have no regrets coming to America and the Americans have been more than generous with me. I am grateful for their hospitality. I am also grateful that their ancestors helped save Australia from Japanese invasion, just as they freed all of Europe from the tyranny of Nazism.

Just my opinion, but then who cares?

It's easy to criticize the failings of others. It's also pointless.

[activewaypoint]

Wow, what a fantastic chap is Chris Higgins. I wonder how he keeps it up with 7 type ratings? Viagra maybe...............god bless doghnutland.:yuk:

[mercuray]

Chris Higgins,

How can you possibly know that you are working for the best employer in the world?!

You demonstrate against your own arguments. Flexjet does not make a profit in Europe either,NOR does Netjets!

Sorry to tell you,but regarding Netjets, USA & Netjets, Europe- It is all Chalk & Cheese!
The Reasons:- 2 very different local management set-ups & 2 very different business cultures. The latter,I believe,may not be an insurmountable problem. The former.....Oh Dear!

[doubleu-anker]

Chris, it looks like a brown nose job to me.

I am sure you will be up for promotion after that grovel.

Don't worry you're not first from where you come from.
:yuk:

[Chris Higgins]

This post started with an unfortunate advertising claim that I never read here in the US. It then graduated through to trading political insults.....

I have looked at your profiles and you are both either:

a) very humble

or

b) very unqualifed.

I suspect the latter.

I have found that attitude does determine your altitude in this industry.

I think that you have to look hard at yourself when you hold in disdain the success through hard work of others. I have recruited pilots in the past and have observed defensive behaviour like this in the hand writing of applications and found it true on interview day, (wishing to offer the benefit of the doubt).

About the promotion. No, theres no promotion. I'm already a captain and have been for some time. I have been a union safety representative for an airline while working in New York for three and a half years and a company examiner on the B-757/767.

This job is a chance for me to spend more time with my family and pursue other interests. It's also a chance for me to celebrate my experience and professionalism with a crew and client group that also enjoys a high grade of service.

Attacks about my assumed nationality, assumed brown-nosing or assumed political persuasion are distractions from the original thread.


Would you like a little more cheese with that whine!

[mercuray]

"More cheese with my whine?" Why do you react with such a shallow meaningless comment?
For somebody who claims such admirable qualifications in our industry,your logic process is sadly lacking.
My qualifications are actually some way ahead of your own,but it is not really necessary to advertise them so vocally!

I am fortunate enough to have "semi-retired". I do not, unlike yourself ,have any axe to grind,nor am I seeking to brown nose my way to premotion!!

Your "Tone" is more compatable to a few young S.F.Os. (Which I could understand at this stage of one's career.)

Surely you must accept that you simply have little experience of the European arena & many of us have worked Airline/Corporate on both sides of The Pond for long periods of time. On this we base our comments.
Anyway,good luck with all your aspirations!

[Chris Higgins]

Well, good luck to you too, with your retirement.

I did not wish to advertise my qualifications, but merely defend my fellow airmen from industry jealousy.

You may or may not be more qualified, that's a broad and subjective judgement to make. I have seen crews with 28 years with the same airline struggle with concepts that you and I would find easy while transitioning to EFIS, FMS and EICAS. Believe me, it was difficult to not show frustration with these "more qualified" individuals.

The accusations of this post seem to be from people who would either:

a) like to work for Netjets

or

b) are frightened that Netjets will undermine their job security.


I cannot give assurances of future employment to anyone but fractional is a fact of life and it's here to stay. The formulation for success may have some financial hurdles to overcome, but like all things in aviation, it will progress to a point where its considered more broadly viable.

To anyone else who has listened to either side of what has been an over indulgence of egos, I suggest that you should apply, if rejected apply again, and go to the interview without a bad attitude and enjoy this new form of corporate flying.


It's not for everyone. We have had airline guys especially, come and then leave. Others have left the airlines through retirement or furlough and have decided to stay.

All I can say is that I wish everyone experiences the happiness in their personal and professional lives that I have found.

I went to a Qantas interview in 1999 and spoke to the tech crew. They had seven marriages between three crew members. Without even meaning to, I talked myself out of the job by the final interview. I'm sure you will agree, it was the right thing to do. Leave the opportunity for someone who really feels they want it.

Fractional flying does have some inherent problems that people with a very different attitude than that required to fly at the airlines will have to overcome.

My mother who was born and raised in England, died in Australia of cancer last Sunday. With seven children and twenty-three grandchildren, a large farm filled with memories, her lifes choices were right for her.

It was the right choice for me to make the life's choices I have made so far. I do so proudly and without regret.

[RedBelt]

Chris Higgins

I think this is the appropriate place for disagreements and agreements, but let me tell you something.
I've been in Colombus, I spent some time in the operations there, and as you probably guess I fly in NetJets Europe. Although the concepts of operation came from the same person, for both US and Europe, and that person is Rich Santulli, my point is Mr. Richard Santulli is completly unaware of what the management is doing in Europe with NetJets.

So my friend, although we share the same name there are two completly different realities. I know NetJets USA is not perfect, but is miles ahead of NetJets Europe. Having said that, please continue to defend NetJets but please differentiate from USA and Europe.

[silverhawk]

Bros Santulli get a mention

[mercuray]

Chris Higgins

I have semi-retired because I am financially fortunate enough to be in a position so to do. I continue to fly because I really enjoy it.

You to need "rant" less & "chill" more!

Listen to Redbelt,& DIGEST!!


From ME, Over & Out.

[bluesafrica]

Chris Higgings
Which major airline you left as 757/767 examiner / check airman for Netjets?
Blues

[Up & Away]

Over ......I expect to hear a reply

Out .......I do not expect to hear a reply

NOT both!!!!

where did you learn your R/T???

[mercuray]

Quite correct, "Up & Away". WHEN ONE IS COMMUNICATING VIA R/T. However,unless I am mistaken this is The PPRune Forum,and I was sitting in my study at home discussing a hot topic via the use of my (not too rapid) fingertips and my PC, not sitting in an aircraft communicating with ATC via radio transmission.
So in this scenario, the "Over" bit means that for me this topic is "Over"
The "Out" bit means that I will be taking myself "Out" of any further debate on this paticular subject.

A play on words?!

[Up & Away]

Then well 'word' played


PS
Is Netjets still recruiting ??

How many pilots to they have/want?


;)

[mercuray]

UP & AWAY

I do not know to be honest.
There seem to be so many conflicting opinions from within & without as to what the present state of their recruitment requirements are.

Perhaps touch space with anybody who attended their open day recently at LGW.

My guess is "If you fit the profile & PERSIST", there maybe something going on?!

[nxmember]

I used to be a member on this forum about five years ago but today I simply don’t have the time or patience to filter through all the crap that is posted here. With regards to Netjets Europe here are some Facts:
I have been flying commercially 15 years for both charter companies and scheduled airlines.
I joined Netjets a few months ago and so far I don’t have any complaints. The flying is great and at the end of each tour you get 4-5 days off at home. There aren’t many airlines or corporate operators out there today that offer anything remotely close. The operation isn’t perfect but that’s not unusual with rapidly expanding companies (Netjets are recruiting around 100 pilots over the next 8 months). Management is aware of the problems and they seem to be addressing them which is a lot more than I can say about my previous employer.

As a first officer based in the UK the annual salary is 51,000 euros + 15,000p.a. in allowances.

For those that missed out what can I say. Life is tough, stop bitching and get on with it.

For those still interested: Keep trying, you can do a lot worse.

For the unhappy ones: Get another job.

[silverhawk]

nxmember enjoy your honeymoon.

[nxmember]

Just a final note on applications.
Some companies will reply to all applications , others will only reply to those applications being considered. This is how it s always been done and if you have been in the business long enough you would know. Some companies just don’t have the time or resources to weed out all the 200hr cvs to get to what they are looking for. So do some research, find out the name of the Training manager or Flight OPS manager and get your application in early.
Here at NETJETS I have met about 30 guys so far and their experience level varies between 2500hrs to well over 10000hrs with backgrounds in military, airline and GA. A pretty good mix if you ask me.
For all the angry ants out there I do believe in the old saying “there is no substitute for experience”. That’s not saying that all high time operators are better pilots. I have been involved in training in the past and I have flown with 5000+ hrs guys who have made me a bit nervous to say the least. That’s where sim checking and training comes in.
All I am saying is that a pretty switched on 1000hr pilot today will be 10 times better in a few years with 4000-5000 hrs under his belt.

Signing off.

[doubleu-anker]

nxmember

What about the people who apply, to the correct e-mail addresses everytime the NJ ad goes in and never receive a reply? People that have between 10,000 and 20,000hrs, type rated and experienced on at least one of the A/C operated by NJE and NJME. Sometimes two types, with significant command time on these A/C. Please inform me why one should not expect a reply? That is all that is being asked. Common courtesy, it is called if I remember rightly. I know, so little of it around these days.

Why should one have to approach by another unadvertised method, ie. contact the management direct? I have been around long enough to know that I would rather and have, gone through the correct channels.

Are you implying maybe it better to go over to Lisbon and get down on on all fours and grovel? That is something I would expect from a second rate outfit in the third world (law of the jungle), not an operator like Netjets in the so called civilized world.

I await your response with interest.

[doubleu-anker]

Mike

Ok thanks for the response.

Good, well at least that is an improvement.

Just trying to correct a previous posting, that only pilots with about 200hrs don't receive a reply.

[Jakobski]

I applied twice in the last two months (after each FI ad) and received a reply twice (one postal letter and one e-mail message).

Still I don't have the requirements NJ is looking for...

But happily ever after I'm 'in file' now, even without meeting their requirements (though getting pretty close)...

[Chris Higgins]

and they will love your persistence!

[silverhawk]

Does Paulo Varela still work for NJE?

He was using Lisbon as a gateway in 2000. Nice guy

[Jakobski]

Have there been any interviews lately (within the last two or three weeks) ??

[Jakobski]

When these are being held in the Meridian Hotel, I know how to get there... ;)

[niknak]

At the risk of being pilloried for entertaining a non pilots opinion, we get NJE into our place 3 or 4 times a week.

At the moment they're servicing clients who've being chartering aircraft for over 20 years, and who don't tolerate any bulls:mad: it from anyone who may try to pull the wool over their eyes.
From an ATC point of view, they're no problem at all, and always seem to operate to the highest standards both in the air and on the ground.

No doubt they're not perfect, but they're a lot more perfect than some I can mention....:E

[M.85]

To fellow pilots still looking for an interview,

I was at in Gatwick for Netjets interview this wednesday.
Still dont know how they came to invite me seeing the very qualified pilots attending with me but keep on trying and I am sure you will get your chance.

Safe Flying,

M.85

[M.85]

2 weeks after the interview.Still no news...

:hmm: :ugh: :bored: :{

M.85

[wandrinabout]

Doesn't seem to have been covered so far, but where are the NJE crews based? Its obviously not in Lisbon, are you scattered all over, or are there set bases?

Sorry if its a bone question, but have been following this thread with interest......

Cheers

[wandrinabout]

hmmmmm...Thanks Mike

Been poking around the website but cant seem to find an email to make contact, anybody willing to provide me with a suitable contact address?

Not in Europe at the moment so not able to attend the 'open day'. Would just like to make contact and see what/ if response I get.
PM me if you wish.

Cheers in advance

[M.85]

Dear Mike,

Got the expected no thanks letter today:ouch:
Oh well,life i guess.
Hope the best for anyone who applies,it seemed to be a very good company.

Safe Flying,

M.85

[Capt Crash]

happyjack

That's bull!!!! and you could find yourself in hot water for uttering such untruths. Maybe you should delete the alleged owners name at the very least!

Why don't you stop this bitching about Netjets and get on with your life. It's kinda sad that you continue to spend time trying to cause a company (and its 200 pilots) grief.

[Chris Higgins]

Hey Happy Jack!

Go get a life! This isn't the ninth grade, perhaps NJE thought the same thing when they interviewed you last time.

That's why you were rejected!

[jammers]

Hey Happy Jack........why don't you tell them about the NJE aircraft that was intercepted just north of the Pyrenees by a French Mirage as the Capt. was in the back pouring champagne for his Pax......the co-jo oblivious to the fact was finally informed by one of the pax that there was a jet fighter just off their wing tip motioning with his hand 1 2 1 5........definitely 9th grade crew .........care for that crews name Higgy?:ok:.....or still want more ??

[Chris Higgins]

Hey Happy Jack, isn't Jill supposed to be coming tumbling after? Maybe she ran off with a Netjets pilot!!!:{ :{

[doubleu-anker]

What was the "Captain" doing down the back pouring drinks?

I know the inadequacies of the French ATC system also. Even less reason to be out of the cockpit IMHO.

However who am I to give am opinion?

[doubleu-anker]

Disagree old chap.

Just as I thought. Customer relations appear to override safety considerations in a few outfits. NJE appears to no exception.Your post has just confirmed it.

If the PIC was out of his seat and it could be proved it was a contributing factor leading to an intercept, then it's a "hanging offence". Period. Have you forgotten what happened on 9/11?

Maybe you are the type of guy that blames the SIC, if there is an incident when you are out of the seat wiping some owners a***.

[Chris Higgins]

Double Anker...I actually have to agree with you. I don't make it a habit to go back into the cabin during flight at all. They're paying for me to save their as--s not kiss it!

Yep, I think if they want a Flight Attendant, they can pay for one, that's not what I do in cruise!

[ssg]

I have a friend who works for Net Jets. Pay is pretty bad (20s to start) and another Citation X driver told me he was pissed to be making 40s, and he was an ex airline guy. None the less, most that I have talked to seem to like the structure, that all co- captains have exact training, so they all know what to expect. They have set schedules, and fly generaly new equipment. It's unfair to say they are the best pilots, or that they aren't so good.

I heard the interview process is demanding, but like most it comes down to fitting in over knowledge and skills.

Some good pilots take lousy jobs because regardless of the credentials, this is the opportunity that presented themselves to them. I personaly think it's the job you take when you looking for something else.

Most people can't hack corporate, to do what it takes. Nor do they have the degree or creds for a real airline job, so this is good place for people to make a little money, fly some nice equipment, and not have to manage planes or people. It's a niche.

[jammers]

JENVEY
Seems that checking through your previous postings about NJE, you are consistantly extremely defensive about all aspects of the company......and judging by your wee little icons you must definitely have a yearly subscription to the beano.........if you think you can lead others who read these postings to believe that all comments made come from 5th hand information(especially regarding the intercept) and at the same time try to pass it off as a normal occurence over french airspace, knowing full well their reputation at not being the best ATC in the world, then I suggest you try to stay awake at your next recurrent in LIS and you'll get it all first hand from MM if he happens to be there subjecting the next group of chaps to the co. indoc......even trying to justify for a minute that pouring a glass of champers for a pax over french airspace on what I am assuming to be your normal flt. leg of 1.2 hrs, taking precedence over safety rather than siting in the seat you're being paid to sit in is ludicrous to say the least.......your most compelling reason, while we're at it, about this living anywhere in Europe gateway lark, you still haven't answered the question of when does your duty day start.....I know, but I'll let you tell the rest of the audience in lieu of being accused that my information is 5th hand.......tell it straight up for a change and stop leading our fellow pilots on.....
SAFETY..........try looking up the definition in the ol' Oxford Dictionary, you'll find it enlightening taking into account your recent postings!!:yuk:

[Chris Higgins]

I don't think there's anyone making 20's nor 40's at Netjets, that is, that wants to work. The money is there, but you do have to give up some lifestyle to get a slice of it.

We can't divulge too much of the compensation arrangements because we are bound by confidentiality, but the money's there if you want to go after it.

It is true that some people see it as a breathing space until the airline industry gets sorted out, then there are people that genuinely like going to work and actually solving problems. With unscheduled flying, utilizing a large organization, there are going to be problems.

I believe there may be an element of truth to every post that we've seen. Firstly that all Netjets pilots are "the best" is simply an outrageous claim to make. I think on average, that we are in fact above average, and I hope this continues as the company grows. An advertising claim that we hire only the best pilots seems well intended, and I think that it's an obvious belief that any competitive company would like to make.

My airline background allows me to share the belief that I have in fact flown with the best pilots in my career, now spanning twenty years, at Netjets.

All things being said, certain training events in simulators, or instances of less than courteous or professional behaviour will have to be dealt with in any organisation the size that we are now. All said, Netjets now has over 420 aircraft worldwide.

To gain some perspective on this size, please allow yourself to consider Qantas, which only has 135 aircraft.

If there was ever an incident as detailed in a previous post, where a pilot did abrogate his/her responsibility and left the flight deck to play flight attendant, I'm sure it's already been dealt with...if indeed it's true in the first place.

We are not perfect, and I hope that we will never consider ourselves such, for that would certainly spell disaster for us all!

[doubleu-anker]

Mike

I am sure your achievements and contribution to aviation safety are nothing short of legendary.

Looking at your posts on this and other threads regarding NJE I get the impression you are on the fast track to high office with your present employer.

For the benefit of the NJE hopefuls

Q 1. Are you fallible?

Q 2. Is seniority respected at NJE?

[livinginspain]

the watchword had to be 'flexible '.....

define..............

[doubleu-anker]

Thanks.

A good and informative response.

[jammers]

If you didn't meet at the recurrent the other month it's probably because you were so far up DM's cave you didn't notice ......typical though of your type......."I don't believe WE could have recruited someone so negative", as if YOU would have any capacity other than opening bottles of champagne to make that decision ....... 'your que to insert infantile icon'......yes, most pilots emerge from locked doors after a period of time, most of us can hold our bladders for 1.2 hours and at the same time manage not to be intercepted!!!..........Regarding your apparent pretence as company safety officer for 6 years, for an antiquated A300 operator, WE have our doubts.....credentials are a matter of subjectivity not capabability as you should be aware of by now at NJE......I am tempted to set you straight at ###########6 regarding your imagined pretence, but I suggest you don't tempt me.......never forget who might be buying you your next beer in Roissy........I would advise you to spend more time preparing for your subsequent days on tour rather than engaging in your boring drivel.........Credentials.... yes how would you recognize MJ and all his credentials at the bar??????
Don't worry, he'll tell you :yuk:
P.S. Still haven't answered the question on Duty-Time Limitations Mr. Safety Officer!:ok:

[M.85]

funny..:hmm: :=

M.85

[RoboAlbert]

Jammers

Thanks for your kind remarks regarding my previous post. I value your thoughtful and constructive comments.

However, I can only reiterate what Mike and Chris H have already said: Most guys n girls seem very happy with their lot, the companies expanding fast, the TRIs say the guys n girls coming in are of a good standard and the management seem to be working hard at making sure the expansion is done right. I can’t think of many of my mates in the airlines who could say one of those things about their company; never mind all of them.

Perhaps you might consider a change from the vitriol and do something less destructive with your time.

[4HolerPoler]

This has been a great thread - probably the best I can remember on Biz Jets - I hope you two aren't going to spoil it to the extent that it requires modification or closure.

I can just imagine the scene in the cockpit if you two ever ended up together.

Keep it nice folk. Bit of the Yuletide cheer please.

4HP

[doubleu-anker]

4HolerPoler

I think if those 2 operated together on a 1.2 hour flight, it would provide enough material for a complete CRM course. :O

Or even an entire conference.

[jammers]

JENVEY

For the last time, with reference to your last post.....and to think from your recent posts that you were a safety officer for 6 years for a previous company is incredulous, to say the least, especially since your contributions are stuff of legend ......... because you have chosen to ignore my references to Duty-Time Limitations, I will try to make it a little more clear for you with a hypothetical scenario..........you live in let's say Luton, your positioning flight is at 08:00LT......you aim to be at the airport by 07:00, so let's assume up by 06:00......slot time with any luck of 08:20 to pick-up the aircraft in GVA.......you arrive by10:00, with no delays expected. You now have to make from the main terminal to the FBO, let's say by 10:30, we'll build in an unforseen delay of a mere 30 min......that put's you in the vicinity of the aircraft by 11:00.....fair enough so far???........show-time at NJE pre-departure is 90 min.......miraculously you are airborne by 12:30. You are scheduled for 4 sectors today.....yes you don't have to answer the duty-time limitations question, but you know aswell as I do, that in this particular scenario you are limited to a 12 hours duty day.........In your humble opinion( I invite any other NJE pilots aswell to join in at this point) would you attempt to provide us with when YOU think your duty day started, given the scenario presented, and when it ends..........remembering of course what doubleu_anker had to say regarding your posts at the top of page 10 of this article try to stay with it for at least 1 post!!!!..............I hope 4HP you'll bear with this a little bit longer, so as to expose from a safety point of view, especially for the younger chaps, a huge anomaly in the OPS Manual approved for the benefit of NJE by the Portugeuse Authority......TA

[activewaypoint]

http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_avsafety/documents/page/dft_avsafety_026139.hcsp

Here's an example of how good NJE pilots are
:cool:

[M.85]

so much tension....
I think you should all get togethere more often with your ladies and get some stress out...:p ..2 days extra/month for that purpose?query your operator for it..he might say yes..
A part from Mike funny microwaves and other pictures..i think its time to quit this personal thing ,you could only get more brain cells flying your aircrat and think about this wonderful Christmas..

SAFE Flying,

M.85

[livinginspain]

I guess we're not going to get the answer to that perfectly reasonable question about duty time.
Just when it was getting interesting. Pity toys started being thrown from prams.

I do agree those icons are starting to get annoying though.

Thank you activewaypoint for the link to the AIB report on the Netjets event at Aberdeen. It does make interesting reading. Wonder what duty hours were involved there ?

Are the pilots concerned still pursuing an active career with Netjets Europe or have they been offered a quiet departure ? or is that another item covered by confidentiality like salary and FTL ?

Hey jammers,
can't send you a pm ! Whats happened there ?

[doubleu-anker]

jammers

Thanks mate. Tried to reply but unable. Now you haven't been a naughty boy and got yourself banned have you?!

Hardly cricket old chap. What?!!

To answer your Q. The answer is no.

He's all p*** and w***

Had dealings with the likes previously.

[activewaypoint]

Well, it does make incredible reading.......5 bounces! What captaincy, having the co-pilot with 38hrs on type attempt an arrival only just on the x-wind limit..........don't know if they're still with the outfit......empty sector though, pax may not have been impressed with that!

[jammers]

Still here lads.....READY, WILLING & ABLE.........Great link there Active, especially for those chaps involved in Safety and CRM:ok:

[ssg]

Who has the best pilots? Who is the best pilot?

My two cents..

When your plane goes off the runway like the Concord, will you do the right thing or do a pre V1 takeoff.

When your horizontal stabilizer starts to lock up, will you mess with it for 45 minutes untill the friggin tail comes off or land the aircraft.

When you have a cockpit fire, will you get the plane down or have a running argument about fuel dumping to the scene of the accident.

When you pick up ice, will you fly around Roselawn for an hour on the autopilot untill the plane stalls or will you depart icing.

on and on.

All good pilots don't neccessarily get paid well, and all good pilots don't fly nice equipment. I fly a Citation, single pilot, under the exemption. If I want to read the books, kiss some ass, take a 75% paycut, I can find and airliner to fly, and say I now have credentials.

Show me the pilot who's actualy dealt with an emergency, flown in the soup, picked up ice, had some problems, plans trips safely, then you have my respect.

For those who don't know: Going to Netjets for $20k per year is not a career move. It's the job you get when you don't want to bag groceries, sell cars or flight instruct. Every Net Jet pilot I have talked to likes his job, hates the pay and is a walking talking irony.

Most logbooks are padded and simply reflect society's moral standards and acceptence of lying about ones credentials. Most pilots I know have skeletons, so it's easy to hide behind a keyboard.

Wanna find a good pilot. Do a credit check, background check, fitness test, and a flight test. Then ask him about what if's. If what if's can't be explained to your satisfaction on the ground, he surely won't be able to do it up in the air.

We need to hire less on personality and more on substance. We need more pilots who care about the passengers, and don't overload the aircraft, know the maintainance status etc.

I'm and corporate pilot, no one's perfect there either, but you don't see to many stupid corporate aircraft accidents. Business owners don't want and idiot flying them around...not usualy.

SSG

[jammers]

You would do well to listen to the previous post JENVEY.......looks like had your wee little posting priviledges suspended by Santa...
poor fella......hopefully you'll have received a few more icons under your tree.....careful how you use them next time.......eventually, as you can see from the previous posts, all the REAL pilots see through you at the end of the day....I'm hoping you'll stick to rules, ATFQ and stop wasting everyones time......For everyone else's information NJE FTL begins 90 min. prior to your 1st departure, regardless if you have been deadheading for 8 hrs. previous to your reporting time.......if you want to keep our job, shut your mouth and do as you are told,or you surely will end up packing groceries....as many former employees can attest.........
Merry Merry..............

[Capt Crash]

Jammers

I have enjoyed reading your post and I have a question. Why don't you leave Netjets if you are so unhappy? Or you could talk to your fleet manager or you could voice you concerns through the (now very good) training dept or to the safety and standards manager/pilot (Capt Dorf)??

Please do something other than bitch on this web site, it's no good for the company and the pilots who wish to have a long and fulfilling career.

Or you could contact the IPA/IPF and seek advice and some representation. Just an idea.

Me, I'm happy. I just do my time, never have too long dead heading and if I felt too fatigued I would talk to the fleet manager and to scheduling.

Good wishes for the season to you and to all my brother and sister pilots within the company.

CC

[4HolerPoler]

Folks, Jenvey's & jammers hate mail has continued to the extent that I closed the thread and in so doing I posted some irritated language in which I referred to them as immature girls having a spat which naturally led to a knee-jerk reaction by some of our readers who have complained about my sexist language.

I’m sorry and I apologize for the inference and have retracted my comments, re-opened the thread and taken the more appropriate step of banning these two gentlemen from any further input on this thread.

4HP

[doubleu-anker]

That's a shame.

Just when it was getting interesting

[doubleu-anker]

Just come across this post I copied from R & N. Tired Budjet pilots.

Dare I ask, would this apply at N**? No it couldn't I'm sure with so many safety officers etc. in place.

"In certain airlines the managed sickness systems that they have put in place ensure that individuals will not report sick - otherwise they are put on a watch list which can affect everything from their promotion to their continued employment.

Crews fly sick and fatigued to ensure that they do not trigger a call to the office to explain why they did not report for duty. At one interview for instance the individual was informed that if he had a problem with fatigue he probably was not the sort of person the company wished to employ, and they would lose confidence in his ability to fly as a pilot. He went back to work.

Management keep their heads in the sand on the issue in the hope that the smoking hole will not be on their watch, and rely on the subtle support of the investigators who would have great difficulty distinguishing fatigue from incompetence. You cannot measure 20 milligrams of fatigue.

Yes, it is illegal to fly when you are fatigued but until we can measure it management with their commercial pressures will ensure that we shall fly when unfit"

[livinginspain]

Good post, d-a.
I feel sure that the 'tell us all about your problems lad' type situation exists in many companies. The individual is encouraged to share worries and concerns by management. When concerns are voiced they are noted for future use. When the 'tally' of concerns/worries reaches a certain level, one is marked for being fired at the earliest opportunity. Personally I feel that listening to and reacting to the concerns could actually benefit companies rather than raise their hackles and stimulate their paranoias.

I feel the issue of FTL figures highly on many individuals' concerns list in this particular company, I believe there have been many firings when concerns are voiced. The caring- knife in the back culture is alive and well !

The bullying tactics used to contain genuine worries and keep them 'in-house' gives rise to the content of many of the responses in this thread. Certain contributors posting items which they know will be read by management.............especially when posted under their own names !


Whatever was the answer to that FTL question ? Did we ever get a straight answer ?

[Paterbrat]

Still trying to work that one out. Still it appears that some steam was vented, not sure about BEST pilots as that is a pretty subjective quality, best as in what... drinking, talking or sex? Best bul!!!!! artists, posers, or polers? Still when all is said and done it appears the thread has kept us all entertained so not entirely wasted effort.

[M.85]

I wonder whats the most tirering...flying too much or not at all.:( :{ :E

Safe flying,

M.85

[silverhawk]

Happy New Year

lets hope that Jammers and Jenvey's forced retirement from this thread does not bring the discussion to an end.

They've only been sinbinned for two weeks. They'll soon be able to enter the discussion again. 4HP

To revitalise things, I wondered if things had changed at NJE over the past years.

For instance, when I voiced my concerns over operating outside the MEL with the Fleet Manager, I was told " Thats OK. We've been operating these airplanes for some time now and we know what we can get away with."

A subsequent gagging order means I am unsure how much detail I can go into. Just interested if that sort of thing still goes on.

Blue touch paper is lit - discuss

[doubleu-anker]

It will be good to have them both back for the second instalment.

I didn't realise there was so much unrest at NJE!! It really surprised me.

Now I'm not one to gloat. I'm not one to wallow in sour grapes. However i do find this thread interesting to say the least.:O

[Chris Higgins]

You gotta be able to go at it too 4HP! Some of the best turning points in history came through colourful discussion.

I am happy to say that here at Netjets North America, they are very protective of their Operating Certificate. Often times I would like to carry a small broken item, like an Audio Control Panel and do a non-revenue flight through speakers, only to find it non-MEL'able. The company's response has always been the same..ground it!

The right to do charter here is obviously worth billions over the say, next 30 years. There is no way we take any chances. We live in a very litigious society

[waketurb]

Haven´t read all of this thread, so apologies for any repetition.

Friend of mine flew for them up to 3 years ago after leaving an airline. Wasn´t allowed to see his contract until after he´d joined. Found he was employed through a Brass Plate company in the Caymans. When he was fired (for being honest) he as asked to take any complaints to the Cayman company..

appalling low standards at times, partly because the guy in charge of standards was an ex turboprop FO second-career guy..had come from the computer industry..later became NJE VP Europe I think. Among other things, the SOPs this guy had written were a joke, and routinely ignored (friend´s training captain didn´t mention them during training).

Passengers had to be lied to (several pilots were sanctioned for being honest for example about why they couldn't land at Chambery except in very good weather)

Very few pilots would speak up, as you could be fired on a whim..

This is an inherently unsafe working environment.

[livinginspain]

well waketurb, I too have heard those self same stories. I note that you relate using the past tense, from what I hear the the present could also be used.
The systematic firings continue with intimidation being the weapon of choice , and management hiding behind various, although perhaps legal, certainly immoral contract terms.
It is certainly about time time more facts are published about the goings on in Lis .
We maybe could start with a straight reply from Jenvey about the FTL situation put to him some time ago !

[4HolerPoler]

MJ & jammers' bans have been lifted to enable this thread to develop.

Keep it nice please.

4HP

[jammers]

Dear 4HP.........given the last few recent posts on this thread what would make you think that anything has changed regarding the authenticity of what is really going on behind the scenery at NJE.......you would have to be quite naive( which I know you're not) to believe the degree of skullduggery going on with the assistance of the Portuguese authority regarding the NJE operation..........the most recent bone of contention being the female pilots on the Oct. 18th indoc(raising hell) after being told that once being found pregnant they would be released/and or not compensated according to EU regulations regarding their impending giving birth to a child because it did not fit in with the NJE ways of doing things.......sounds a bit of the way things were done in SA during the aparthied......probably though a complete coincidence though given that the current COO of NJE is of South- African descent.......and if this is true regarding this issue, it is a flagrant disregard for the female pilots employed by NJE with regard to EU Law........Ladies, choose your weapons.......MJ, happy New Year, answer the bloody question regarding your FTL, or I'll post it verbatim from the manual from which you make mentiom to and we'll both post it to CM for clarification ......what do you say old chap.......jolly hockey sticks and all that !!!!e!! :O

[livinginspain]

I wonder if any of those on the indoc starting today will keep us up to date on the lastest news from LIS ?

[doubleu-anker]

What has happened to our old friend Mike??

Where is he? Is he hiding??

This thread is just not the same without him.

Maybe he has had his "wings clipped".

[Wrong Sisters]

Jammers - MJ and talking are mutually inseperable so he must be on tour or CM has read him the riot act. Have the NJE police identified you yet?

Why are you baying for blood? You know that NJE is breaking/bending FTLs so why are you asking MJ to put in print? Quite simply if NJE was based in the UK many of the first day of tour schedules would be illegal under CAP371. So until Portugal becomes fully JAA compliant maybe things might not change. However, what if the UK CAA knew what was going on and did a ramp check on the crew who had flown in your earlier scenario?

The choice is simple - if you don't agree with what they are doing either stay and accept it (I appreciate many with pilot training debt and young families have little choice) or leave.

That said I do think the Jammers v MJ wrestling match is bloody good sport. Seconds out Final Round.:ok:

[Oluf]

The FTL discussion is interesting. Whether Netjets is breaking or just bending the rules we can only guess until someone states the facts.
As far as a change in the future when Portugal becomes a full member in the the JAA family, I'm more doubtful.
It seems as the Flight- and Dutytime regulations are very poorly, if at all, defined in the JAR's, and open up for discretionall interpitation for many of the operators/countries.
I was told by a friend in the CAA that there was little will at the JAA to take on the political struggle of defining this area and thus creating the standard. This is of course the area where one would expect some conciderable lobbyism to take place on behalf of the companies trying to keep their number of employees to a minimum. This is in my view, as a pilot, an area where we need to be alert. I have seen FOM's where Flight/dutytime was 11/14 hours( 14/17 hours with working FMS) a day. And this is while operating small/medium private jets.
There is in my view a desperate need for a standardisation of flight and duty-time in Europe. Countries blacklist operators over maintenance due to safety concerns. Excessive Dutytime is by all means a major safetyconcern and should be treated in the same category.
As long as Flight/Duty time regulations are illdefined, operators will be seeking harbours of convenience.

Just my opinion.

O:suspect:

[jammers]

Wrong Sisters,
I agree wholeheartedly with your opinion, though I do believe MJ posts from where ever he is, from his wee XP to his bat cave back in Cambs.......he's reeling from a bloodied nose and I assume has been called in for tea ( don't know about the biscuits though) in LIS.......Baying for blood, no, revealing the truth, yes.Thought everyone( including MJ, I do miss him so) might find this article interesting though..........NJE do fly 6 on 5 off, could go to 7 on and 4 off though and during the busy season the lads are flown right up to the INAC limit of 55 hrs. a week, with CAP 371 NOT being adhered to.......Ramp checks on NJE aircraft could be quite revealing.........

Tue 13 Jan 2004

10:02am (UK)Tired Airline Pilots 'Could Be Safety Risk' By Jacqui Walls, PA News Passengers flying on budget airlines could be putting their lives in the hands of an exhausted pilot working a punishing schedule of flights, according to new research.An investigation into the condition of pilots working for low-cost carriers found more than half believed themselves to be “stressed and tired” at work.Researchers discovered instances of a pilot flying for six consecutive days, ( like NJE)others working for 12 hours without a meal break and ’plane-hopping’, where a crew is forced to dash from one plane to another.The self-assessment by ’no-frills’ pilots, who earn between £50,000 and £100,000 a year, revealed that they sometimes lose concentration due to fatigue.Dr Simon Bennett, of the University of Leicester, flew in the cockpit where he found many pilots complaining of punishing work schedules and disrupted sleep patterns.He said: “The business model that underpins low-cost carrier operations, with its emphasis on securing the maximum return on physical and human capital, has the potential to compromise safety.“While stress and fatigue are difficult to measure, and while the pilots’ statements were informed by subjective self-assessments, it is clear that further research is required.“This research should be informed by the disciplines of medical science, psychology and sociology. “My study was carried out without financial backing – with public safety in mind, and to improve conditions in the industry. It is vital that further studies are conducted.”The research was carried out by Dr Bennett, an airline safety consultant, in late 2001 and is published in the current edition of the International Journal of Risk Assessment and Management.

Cheers for NASA boffins, but a Scots accent is no good for English students.


©2004 Scotsman.com


:ok:

[LordyLordy]

Jammers, interesting that you draw parallels between NJE’s operations and budget airlines. Could I also make a couple of comparisons?

Crews scheduled for 20 min turn-rounds v 1 hour 30 min.

No meal breaks v Crew meals provided

Stress inducing mind-numbingly repetitive sectors v Varied and interesting flying

Disrupted irregular sleep patterns v Mainly flying daytime/early evening

Frequent plane hopping v Operating same airframe for a six day tour

Still nice attempt at muddying the water with an irrelevant newspaper article, Jammers….
:ok:

[livinginspain]

I understand that 6 on 5 off can be changed at the whim of management( translated as ops requirements ) ; indeed I hear that there have been instances of 6 on ( or more ) followed by 1 off ! If you refuse that too often, next plane home..............
Reason for dismissal, ' we don't need to give you one lad ! , read your contract '

[Capt Crash]

I enjoy my flying with NJE. Never done anything less than 6 on 4 off, I do see some guys get the odd 6 and 3 followed by maybe 7 days off. We are contracted to work 18 days a month if we work more, the company pays €270 - €370 a day extra. I could do with some more of that.

I have been called on a day off and asked to fly but it was not possible and guess what, I didn't get sacked or even a trip to Portugal!

As for FTL don't blame Netjets, blame the JAA. Nothing will be done until a 'sub part Q' of JAA Ops is written and then maybe the INAC will adopt it. It is arrogant to expect another country to use CAP 371 when their FTLs have seemed to work for so many years.

I do have an honest question for jammers, if you hate it so much why don't you quit??

[jammers]

Dear CC,
Whoever said I was an NJE pilot....I certainly didn't......I do however have many friends who are your colleages and through whom I am reliably informed of the carry-on.......and through whom they are able to vent their fustrations on this forum without being reported by the NJE police.......arrogant, you say, to use CAP 371, get with it boy.....practically the whole of the western world uses some form very close to it as a basis for FTL....forgive me , but the last time I checked, Portugal was part of the EU......to ask a pilot to deadhead before a duty and not count that time towards duty-time, now that's arrogant.....to give Netjets pilots only 2 weeks leave a year while almost everyone else gets 6 weeks, now that's arrogant.....INAC's FTL's have worked so well for all this time because of the mentality that exists there....remember, the country was a dictatorship until recently, and I'm not talking about bastille day........To fly a crew, operating to NJE FTL's, into UK airspace while the rest of us are in it......now that's arrogance :ok:

[Capt Crash]

Thanks for your reply jammers.

I am a pilot with Netjets and I am very happy and I have met many other happy Netjet pilots. I get tired but I have never been pushed into doing a flight illegally or when dangerously fatigued. Yes, things could be improved but every month there are changes for the better. The company is getting there.

It is a shame you have to try to damage a growing company by this constant barrage of vitriol. It is a company that employs 200 pilots and aims to hire another 100 this year; constructive criticism is a good thing but your axe grinding is getting a little tedious.

[jammers]

Capt. Crash....I am sincerely happy that you are happy with you lot.....my comments have been made simply to try to empower a few not to give in to an industry that is under attack and to stick with what they think is the right thing to do, given the circumstances at the time, regardless of commercial pressures and to work towards better conditions for all pilots....I do believe you and that things will get better hopefully.....I wish you well.

MJ, MJ MJ.......he's definitely lost the plot folks, I'm sorry for that.

Wrong Sisters wrote

" MJ and talking are mutually inseperable so he must be on tour or CM has read him the riot act." I think not.

With 628 posts on this forum (not including other web-sites) in less than 2 years, you could be considered a very 'different sort' of Ppruner , though you come a close 2nd to 411A, he does know how to spell.....(do me a favour, if you're going to slander me, dysfunctional is spelt with a 'y' not an 'i' and the term is normally reserved for people like yourself who identify their own faults and then attribute them to others. ) You should definitely spend more time target-rifle shooting, your hobby, as your last posted scores 'viewed on the world -wide web' were quite poor and I won't embarrass you by posting them here lest (given your current blood-pressure) you turn the gun on yourself......... You've talked and slandered quite a few posters, who are all entitled to their views contrary to what you might have others believe, but your ego precedes you..... while you're at it.....do tell all about the circumstances of how you came to leave the RAF, will you, it's only fair seeing the you know SOOOO much about us?? Or have you no skeletons in the closet?? Or as we have all come to accept, ignore the question........fair , seeing that you've slandered everyone who has had an opposite opinion to yourself.........I will not reduce myself to your level of integrity!

If anything these posts have confirmed that there is no such thing as the 'NJE HAVE THE BEST PILOTS'........but in fact confirmed that we are all fallible......

I've contributed all I can here .........it's been fun apart from one chap, but then again, 'there's always one' LOL

[doubleu-anker]

MJ

Way off the mark old chap. Haven't flown the DC 8. I maybe old, but not that old.

What are the criteria to secure an interview with NJE? I realise this is rather audacious of me.The minimum requirements are well known. It would give us all a glue what you're looking for in the way of crew. E.g. ex-opposition, non ex-military topguns, smokers, physical fitness fanatics, etc. etc. need not apply. Might cut down on the mountains of applications, if requirements were published.

PS. Do you think it would be possible for you to have a word in the right persons ear in LIS to secure me an interview? After all I have shown a healthy interest in NJE. For reasons unbeknown to me, I can't get past the negative reply stage.

[Wrong Sisters]

MJ
Contrary to your manic views, there is no such thing as NJ PPRuNe police, perhaps these paranoid fears need to be addressed…? You're wrong old chap - I once had a call!

MJ/Jammers - This has been great sport watching you wrestle with your keyboards and am pleased that you have decided to call the final bell before it gets really personal.

At the end of the day no company has the best pilots. It's been a great thread but it's now time to move on.

Fly safely guys but for the benefit of all involved in aviation please never fly together!

[melia]

This is my first posting on this web site and I have read with interest this thread.

Unfortunately I cannot help but notice the same question has been asked and never answered FTL’s If it is company practice not to included positioning time on an airline before the beginning of a 6 or 7 day ‘tour’ then this will not be included in the 55 hours weekly total and as a JAR-OPS 1 operator this would be illegal for me. What of airlines in the middle of tours I am sure this will happen on ‘tech issues’ does this not count either? And on returning to home base on an airline does this count?

Running around Europe is a serious business enough but I have heard a rumour of heavy metal as in G-IV’s will be joining the fleet, therefore will the positioning time count, as the crew fly out to White Plains to start their ‘tour’?

If positioning doesn’t count then I would not like to meet that crew coming in the opposite direction in any airspace.

It seems to claim one company or another has the best pilots is subjective and the quote was to do with PR not operating aircraft. To get to the real story of a company you must look at the financials therefore to make a decision of who to work for. This should be of concern to all, and if the contracts and the financial statements of a company are not available before you sign then there could be something some one is trying to hide.

I feel I am very lucky to be seeing this as an outside observer and I also believe there is no smoke without fire and people should tread very carefully in aviation.

It’s a small world and what goes around comes around.

[Wrong Sisters]

Melia - First post and on this thumping good thread. What's that smell? Whoops just seen a rat.

[doubleu-anker]

MJ

Many thanks for your offer of assistance. You're on. email address in your PM.

[M.85]

just to keep this AMAZING thread alive i have a question..

Are NJE pilots better ones the NJUS?
Are the standards different for the hiring/training?

:E

M.85

[flycat]

Check out this web, you need to request a login, see the bottom left corner, free service and you will be able to compare the three big ones in the US (netJets, FlexJets, and Flight Options) salaries, benefits, and schedule options are included, as well as minimums to apply at each one.
http://www.fracstats.com/main.cfm

[melia]

I have left this post and I have waited for a reply to a very simple question on FTL’s as the people who work for the company have not replied I can only assume my conclusions are correct.

Being from the older generation I am glad I have not had to put up with the spin rather than the truth from the people from NetJets EUROPE. Again from the posts it seems Netjets America is a great place to work where as Europe leaves a lot to be desired.

Maybe the pilots should take it for what it is a great place to gain experience as long as you tow the party line!

As for, does Netjets have the best pilots? Well the conclusion can only be NO any pilot who has is license issued by the UK the is happy to ignore the country’s guidelines CAP371 and ignore those limitations while flying under a flag of convenience to gain a market advantage, over safety could not possibly be the best pilot.

[LordyLordy]

Melia

Could you just run me through the thought process that leads you to conclude NJTA is a bad place to work and the US version is great?

I’m slightly confused because if you read the thread those who profess to actually work for NJTA keep saying how happy they are and how much they enjoy their jobs.

Personally though I’m more than happy for the detractors to keep up this rubbish because it will put people off applying to NJTA. More places available for my friends who I have no hesitation in recommending the company to.

Anyway back to the rest of my tour - feeling happy, relaxed and enjoying life……… ;)

[melia]

How I reach my conclusions is perfectly obvious if you read all the threads relating to your company.

But I notice once again SPIN you would rather talk about this instead of answering the question about FTL’s

Same question asked and never answered !!

[livinginspain]

How much leave do you NJE pilots get a year ?

[Capt Crash]

LivinginSpain

28 days a year, why do you ask?

Oh yes, I can expect to get 48 days total if I take 4 week long holidays with the 5 days off earnt for working for 6 days added to the 7 days I book as leave.

I hope I'm making myself clear.

I must say that I don't feel the need to take all my leave, I have enough time off as it is.

Got to get to bed, 1200z show tomorrow.

[livinginspain]

Thanks CC,
Do you get 28 days when you join or is that after a few years

Just out of interest, btw !:D

[M.85]

HI guys,

Recieved an email form Raytheon friends in wichita which included pictures of a net jets pilot with a pen stick on the side of his left eye.
could ask my friends what happened but i believe netjets ppruners may have the insight of this..
By the way the guy is alright,thanks lord.
M.85

[tophe]

You get 14 days a year the first 2 years, then it increases to 21 and 28 the years after.
As Capt Crash said, this is added to the rest period of 5 days, so in fact, you get 25 days or so on year 1 and 2.....;)
Conerning the duty time limit, it is as per Portugese CAA.

HAve fun.

[jammers]

....and not to forget what tophe is saying is that INAC FTL's does NOT include positioning to the aircraft, wherever it may be, no matter how long it takes........
as for CC with his 7 days leave + 5 days time off which he seems to lead us to believe he gets twice a year.......I put this scenario to the rather large lady with the lazy eye who writes the rosters in LIS and she confirmed to me that NOTHING is written in stone and everything is done on a first come first seved basis(got to love it),regarding the 7+5.......straight from the horses mouth. Considering you only are allowed 1 request a year, if you're lucky, you might get what you want regarding vacation once a year..............simple answer......2 weeks VACATION a year without all the implied fluffiness of days off.........and you know the poor sods deserve it, after all CM is working the lads right up to the INAC limit of 55 HOURS a week during the summer.......else where we get our 6 weeks + the fluff.........anyways got to go........starting my 12 days off in a row this month, followed by those boring Barbados and Cancun layovers :cool: ............the NJE boys are getting pretty defensive these days.........

[Capt Crash]

Thanks Jammers.

I'm not trying to be defensive, I'm just saying how it is for me. I'm really happy with how my leave works out but I am very flexible with going away on holiday, I always buy trips last minute.

Leave goes through the Fleet Manager and he will approve it with SL and then it is in the system - cast in stone. There is a great deal of work going into making the leave system better (thanks to RS) and things are improving.

All I can add is that I work for the company and I'm happy!

[shenzi_rubani_HTAR]

Silverhawk is just `sourgrapes'. Why even start a thread like this? Can't get an interview? Failed the training? Or did a netjets guy steal your woman!

[silverhawk]

I think it's fairly obvious why I started this thread. In response to Netjets' outrageous publicity statement in a UK national newspaper.

I think the level of response to this thread shows how many people NJE have managed to upset over their short existence.

I did work for them for less than two years. I was lucky enough to be able to return to my former airline, so I quit NJE, asap.

During my time at NJE the Ops Manual had various different sets of FTLs, written in English and Portugeuse. However the manual stated that whichever set of FTLs were less limiting were to be employed.

On tour, you were on 24 hour standby while you were not flying. Has that changed?

[melia]

In response to TOPHE

Therefore Netjets Europe are not a JAR OPS 1 operator. I am sure there is some more SPIN in the aviation press which says that you are! In fact more than SPIN just downright lies.

Sounds like a great company!!

[tophe]

Hello Melia,
JAR-OPS subpart Q relates to Flight,Duty Time Limitations and rest requirement. But you should know that nothing is published yet in any JAR-OPS1 country because nobody can find an agreement. So every company is working with the rules where the AOC is registered (unless more restrictive rules are included in the OM partA).
So, it looks that NJE is working under JAR-OPS1 because Portugal in part of the JAA member states.
To Silverhawk,
the guy's on tour shoud be available within 1h30 after a company call, only after the end of the rest. As pilot, I don't expect to be paid for sitting in hotels days after days. Of course, I like to enjoy some visit here and there, but I undersdand as well that I have some duties to perfom.
And to Jammers,
If you open your part A at section 7, you will find some information concerning the legal requirement concerning the positioning at the start of the tour.(like every other company working under JAR-OPS1)
By the way, I know some pilots leaving South of France positioning to central Europe before LH flights. Do you think they start they duty in NCE? I don't think so.....;)
Enjoy your flights anyway.

[livinginspain]

Jenvey I wonder why such a simple question should promote such a response ? I ask a question, and you assume that I'm stirring, I can't understand why you're being so defensive. Then of course you, predictably, move on your your usual personal remarks. Predictable.

[LordyLordy]

Jammers

Critise the company, insult people for their deeds or actions but please refrain from that kind of insulting remark about someones appearance.

No doubt you yourself are without any physical imperfection.

[livinginspain]

Jenvey, don't worry, I'm sure all of us rational individuals will be more than happy to submit all of our motives to you for approval before publication. OK ?

Whatever your suspicions may be, they are not of the slightest interest to anyone other than yourself.

Now can we get away from this personal obsession please ?

Thank you.

[fractional]

I gathered, the job is good. Few management elements suck, but it's better than many set ups around. There are things to be amended, and I hope they will. Apparently, a lot of time and energies were lost in the Summer of 2000, and still are.
One has to look at the way Biz Aviation is. The big paying guys deserve the service they invest in. I believe night flying (after mid-night is rare). Sometimes things don't go so well, but it isn't the rule from what I hear.
The only bad aspect of the pilots' duty is the first day, positioning to the aircraft. Should one give up part of the last day off and position to the acft to avoid those long (for some) rides to the aircraft? The 2, 3, 4 or 5 changes in the daily show/go is part of the biz, and the ops guys use their common sense to notify or not the target crew. I hear, the despatch guys seem to do so. The acft/crew available have to be maximise to cater for the flights demand.
Let's be reasonable. It could be better, BUT IT IS NOT BAD. NJ (Europe) do a lot of safe flying despite the biz demand from the Main office. They may need some "spring-cleaning" of few undesired elements who have no basic respect for human beings. Apparently, there is one, and he is a "foreigner" infiltrated from the South.
Let's be reasonable. We can´t have the all good and our way. We've got to give away something...

[melia]

Tophe,

I understand the workings of the JAA and JAR-OPS probably more than you can imagine. Yes you are correct Portugal is a member state but is not mutually recognised the consequences of that I will leave for you to research yourself but to help you, they cannot pass the JAA audit therefore cannot issue Licenses medicals or an AOC under the JAA banner!! Therefore as a pilot flying under another country’s validation where is your protection? As you are not using your issuing license country’s rules.(terrible grammer!).

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/49/SRG_MED_JAA_Authorisation_dates.pdf

As for Mr. Jenvey I am glad to see you place FTL’s as pointless and I suggest this resembles your professionalism that is echoed in the way you conduct yourself on this web site.

I am not here to continue on about this but, I only ask that if a question is asked it is answered with the truth and knowledge not hearsay from a person who from the mouths of his own colleagues, (whom I met recently), is ‘a newby trying to make a name for himself!’

Thank you fractional for mature and balanced comments.

[shenzi_rubani_HTAR]

Silverhawk,
Its a shame you had such a bad experience but it does sound as though NJE and NJA are very different.
My point on `Why even start such a thread' is ask yourself this:
What airline, or any company for that matter doesn't advertise that their pilots or employees are the best around?
Wouldn't your current employer bill you out the same way?

[jammers]

This thread has gone very quiet since the mention of JAA and JAR-OPS procedures...........I believe DM has come down quite heavily on his own with veiled threats and the likes on his own staff, but then what would you expect from an ex turboprop experienced pilok.....makes you wonder who's pulling his puppet strings......although I think this new FOM chappy brought in from the states might be able to straighten out the local INAC mafia........as the CAA net closes in on this operation......just starting 10 days off, so I'll be around for the latest crap shoot.....

[Kelly Hopper]

It's gone very quiet simply because no-one can defend the disgraceful management of this company. Your suggestion that DM has somehow managed to shut everyone up doesn't surprise me. For such a little man he has so much weight to shove around.
Perhaps if the owners knew he was "on the make" with operations, maintanance, fuel and anything else to further his personal empire a bit of fat would get sliced!

[mumble xp]

How sad that a group of mature adults indulge in this childish tittle-tattle. I personally have no complaints about NJE although I do have many suggestions as to how things could be made to run smoother. As for the non safe flying, have to disagree with all the mud slinging. Its a big and busy world out there and people make mistakes. I have a friend who lost his son because he was blown to pieces by an american tank buster in iraq. Shame the pilot didnt recognise a centurian with a uk flag on it!!

We all have to do our "bit", bit some "bits" just dont sit with others. Chaque a son guele, as the french say.

[jammers]

Mumble Xp,

It would seem you would have a rather large ego ignoring the Deputy Chief Pilot of PPRUNE, suggesting he is engaging in childish tittle tattle especially taking in to account no.5 or 9 of his extremely revealing post......is it due to the fact you have the larger picture or just climbing the ladder re: no. 1 of the following previous post?

cambioso "Stitch that" moaners and mud-slingers !!!

1."The spirited defence of the company by several individuals is laudable, ( and is probably a company requirement when the printout is taken in to the upper echalon office is LIS for the pat on the head ! ) but in the end they may come to understand how this company operates, like many others before them"

2."Pilots are generally unhappy with items like duty times and upgrade policy"

3."The problem facing all the NJE cheerleaders here is their resolute refusal page after page after page to answer any question in a straight forward manner. This is actually a polite way of saying ducking, diving and consistently, pointedly and egregiously obscuring the truth."

4."Let's sum it up. NJE got out of the FTL's required by all other AOC operators in extremely mysterious circumstances. Working for NJE is actually a contract job with no employment law comeback."

5."ANY SANE, experienced aviator would be a fool to take the blandishments offered by supposed Net Jet employees as anything other than rose tinted honeymoon whisperings or the ravings of the terminally ambitious."

6."Finally, we at the Towers have to make it utterly clear the NJE are facing contract disputes taken to law at a rate a magnitude greater than we have ever seen at any airline."

7."FTL's as I said at the outset are a matter of public record. They and the contracts are the dirty little secret missing from all these months of enquiries"

8."It really makes you wonder at the hostility consistently bandied around at those that left the company. I strongly suggest those considering applying take an hour our so to reread every single word published in the last 6 months. Not one word has been edited and the lack of honesty from NJE employees."

9."We at the Towers have to make it utterly clear the NJE are facing contract disputes taken to law at a rate a magnitude greater than we have ever seen at any airline."

PPRuNe Towers
Dep Chief PPRuNe Pilot

Cambioso(sounds like a type of ripe cheese)

The 'Threads' found above will provide the powers that be, including all JAA OPS Authorities and Operators, who view this site on a daily basis,the sufficient material to 'Stitch' together(couldn't resist the pun) a quilt which will eventually smother and then reveal all the 'dirty little secrets', which keeps your outfit afloat through the power of the 'backhander'. .......there is always alittle extra to made on the side re: fuel, maintenance and.or handling contracts etc.


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[montys ex teaboy]

Hmmm NJE.

I have great difficulty understanding their hiring policy. In fact it makes no sense to me at all.

Sure they must have some very good people there. That there is no doubt.

However, I know of people that can't even get an interview with them who are experienced and very competent, not to mention type rated and current on A/C that are operated by NJE. Yet they have employed others that I wouldn't let loose on any of my camels.

When the expected pilot shortage hits (praise be to Allah) it will be interesting to see how many of their pilots vote with their feet. :suspect:

[bluesafrica]

NJE obviously look also some other capabilities than stick and rudder only from they new hires. As we all know, flying is only one part of the job in bizjets, important yes but not all that is required.
Every company should have a right to select the best by their own requirements.

As you know, good camel drivers are also hard to come by.
Blues
:ok:

[High Viz Vest]

Found this on the NJE site:

TWO CAPTAINS ON EVERY FLIGHT
FAA regulations don't require co-pilots to be type-rated in their assigned aircraft. But NetJets does. That means that all our pilots and co-pilots are certifiedto fly as captains in the one specific aircraft type they fly, whether they sit in the left or right seat of the cockpit.

Thats not true for european ops, they speak with forked tongue.

They bad mouth other operators to gain customers, its time they got some back!

I have nothing against their crews, just the companies way of doing business.

[josephshankes]

I say, do any of you chaps know what happened to that Mike Jenvey chappie?

Was such fun reading his posts on this thread.

[mumble xp]

Jammers.

How wonderful of you to reiterate my point. Thank you so much. As usual your opening ( cheap ) shot is a childish remark about someones character. Please humour me by explaining how I have a large ego by simply remarking on the inane circular debate that has been going on for so long? I myself have no intention of being slanderous or insulting to any pprune members who chose to post threads on this site. I am not about to start now, however I will say that you do appear to be remarkably bitter and cynical.

I have questions for you:

1) Do you really believe that NJE is cheating on the FTL
scheme in some nefarious way.

2) Do you honestly believe that the INAC would allow
such a dark and mysrerious FTL scheme to exist, considering
that they are an authority that is conforming to JAR and on the
brink of obtaining full JAA membership.

3) Have you ever met ANY of the Directors at NJE? If you had
then surely you would realise that there would be no "pat on
the head" as you so quaintly put it. Infact I am sure that they
take absolutely no interest whatsoever in competitors
aircrews opinions on NJE.

4) As for litigation and unhappy aircrews, I challenge you to
name me ( us all indeed ) ONE company that has absolutely
NO disgruntled employees whatsoever. I'll even make it
easier and offer you the whole spectrum of industry
worldwide. Human nature to moan and whinge. The grass is
always greener etc...

Pprune is an interesting website and one which broadcasts some valuable and informative information about our industry. It is, however, a rumour network. Hence the name.
I'm sure that the "Chief Pilot" of Pprune had no intention of setting up this site so that " stable extroverts" could purge their inner rage and dissatisfaction by slagging off their peers.

Yours politely...:

[Branleur]

I cannot understand all ze, ow you say, backbiting wiz ze Netjets zay are a wunderful company and all ze people I have met who doing ze flying are "sur la lune" as ve zay en France. I zink at ze moment all pilots should be appy and zankful for ze small mercies. A job in ze hand is better zan a job in ze wood.

[jammers]

Mumble jumble XP.........if you at least left out the XP you wouldn't have everyone on PM talking about your silly alias MJ...

I take the opportunity between time spent on the beach and quality family time to refer all to start at point no. 8. of PPRUNE TOWERS DEPUTY CHIEF PILOT PPRUNE TOWERS information.

8."It really makes you wonder at the hostility consistently bandied around at those that left the company. I strongly suggest those considering applying take an hour our so to reread every single word published in the last 6 months. Not one word has been edited and the LACK OF HONESTY FROM NJE EMPLOYEES.

To answer your question 1 & 2 I refer you to point no. 4. and 7.

4."Let's sum it up. NJE got out of the FTL's required by all other AOC operators in extremely mysterious circumstances. Working for NJE is actually a contract job with no employment law comeback."

7."FTL's as I said at the outset are a matter of public record. They and the contracts are the dirty little secret missing from all these months of enquiries.

I say again for the record, quoting from the moderaters of this incredible web-site:

9."We at the Towers have to make it utterly clear the NJE are facing contract disputes taken to law at a rate a magnitude greater than we have ever seen at any airline."

PPRuNe Towers
Dep Chief PPRuNe Pilot

Yours realistically,

[livinginspain]

As has been said before, this company is a contract job with absolutely no redress in the event of a dispute.
Other companies have unhappy disgruntled employees, yes, of course they do.
At least in most cases,the employer can be made to answer for their actions, ultimately, in court. I have not heard of any party taking NJE to court EVER !
What does that say, loud and clear ?

Any info on that score would be heartily welcomed by many readers of this thread.

If they decide they no longer wish to employ individuals, they are simply fired. There are no reasons given. Even the most basic of employment law gives the employee the right to know why !
Not with this wonderful company though......

[livinginspain]

As usual, jenvey, your replies become personal. Nothing new then, not actually addressing the issue. Probably because you are unable to and are relying on the spoonfed bull from LIS ( BON )
As you can't actually answer the case against your 'employers', if indeed that's what they are, your feeble responses surprise nobody.

[mumble xp]

Jammers.

Firstly, i am not Mr Mike Jenvey Esq. Naturally I do know him and have operated with him many times. I am not in cahoots with him with regard to this matter. My posts on this website are my own opinions on this circular debate.

I asked you several questions which you have failed to answer. Cutting and pasting your previous posts doesn't qualify i'm afraid.


Even if one is a contract pilot, one would still have to abide to an accepted FTL scheme. The NJE scheme has been found acceptable by the INAC. True, NJE utilise it to it's legal maximum, as do countless other operators. Please view posts on EZY working conditions and the migration of pilots from that company. 40 so far this year, if my memory serves me correctly.

If NJE employees are all "contract pilots", why is it that I receive a fixed monthly salary with employee benefits, standard vacation and pension packages? Why is it that I am NOT allowed to fly for anyone else for hire and reward? Surely if I was a contracted mercenary I could go where the wind blows me?

I am getting a feeling here that some people participating on this thread are those kind of pilots who only wear the uniform for the money, want to do as little work as possible but receive the ego-boosting kudos of " being a pilot". Big deal. If you want to make money and do no work, then i suggest dealing on the futures market.

Living in spain....

I happen to know the circumstances of your dismissals from BOTH NJEME AND NJE. Why aren't you taking the company to court if you feel so aggrieved? Or could it be that secretly, deep down inside you know that you deserved it???

Anyway, I have tried not to be insulting to either of you two gentlemen, indeed, I sincerely hope that you, Jammers, enjoyed your vacation with your family and that L-I-S is doing well in Malaga. At the end of the day, our families and loved ones are the reasons we all work so hard.

Surely neither of you will disagree with that.

Yours respectfully,

[PPRuNe Towers]

Mumble,

Nice try at the good cop smoke and mirrors routine but you must know that it only works on the children who've never worked in the business. I let your first missive pass but not a second time.

Your 'rebutals' are incredibly carefully worded semantic nulls. Being polite doesn't actually help - bluff and bluster would actually disguise the lack of substantive denial to greater effect.

If you actually believe one word of the bollocks you're spouting just give the punters here on PPRuNe the name and address of the company employing you - that's the name and address on your contract. That is to say the company you would have to resolve any dispute with in the unfortunate case that the sun might not be seen to shine out of your fundament anymore?

I have taken on board the assurances given to me privately that there is someone in a significant position within NJE now trying to make a difference in several important areas. However, as or until that bears fruit in a way that pro pilots outside NJE can see our position here at the Towers has no cause to change.

One final point to the pro NJE camp. This policy on PPRuNe is entirely of your own making. You have 100% brought it upon yourselves. In February 2001 your Ops Director at the time tried to recruit myself and Danny - the deal was made clear then in all respects and it happened in public rather than through correspondence as all three of us were speakers at a conference. For the old hands at NJE I can quote Bruce's standard pitch with an accuracy you'll find quite eeerie! Sadly his idea of '80th percentile airline pay' seemed to be based on the Hillman Airways contract of 1938 for the deHavilland Rapide rather than any numbers we were familiar with but I digress:

In over 3 years since not one of you working for NJE has ever told what we 100% know to be the truth regarding contracts and FTL's. Have a look just how long we gave you before intervening. Every NJE employee here has made every possible effort month after month to avoid at any cost letting the cat out of the bag regarding those two areas - the search engine is at everyone's disposal to prove this to their own satisfation.

NJE drivers - You reap what you sow until the reform wing makes genuine progess in Lisbon. It is a contract job with no protection in law anywhere in the world while operations are predicated under flight time limitations that are bent and being savagely attacked by accident investigators and national authorities throughout Europe.

Rob

[4HolerPoler]

Thanks Rob, I couldn't have hoped to put it so eloquently myself. Nice looking soapbox.

Regretfully, even with your sage input I have my doubts that some of these debaters will put this one to rest - it has become a way of life for a few of them.

We live, as they say, in interesting times.

4HP

[mumble xp]

Enough. I'm bored now.

The reason I joined this debate was that I found it mentally stimulating to joust with other intelligent professionals. I don't swear online, I'm not abusive to my peers. I just enjoy the banter. Disappointed with the lack of intelligence though, I must confess.

My actual opinion is as follows... I don't give damn what anyone thinks of me or the company I work for. I am happy in my job, and massivley happy in myself. I don't get so worked up like Jammers and Co. Life is far too short.

Mr Pprune Towers...

You're very anti NJE. That's your opinion and you are entitled to it. But why get so stroppy. Do you actually give a damn whether a NJE pilot is fired or not. Doesn't affect you one iota. You obviously don't work for NJE, maybe you used to, I don't know. If pilots are happy to work for NJE then bloody well let them!! It is their decision.

On top of that, most people get fired for a reason, not just because the sun stops shining out their arse, as you so immaturely put it.

I can only recommend that you sit back and reflect on the reasons for your diatribe and then GROW UP.!!
In closing, the opening post on this thread was " NJE claim to have the best pilots"....questions:::

what is the best pilot?
who is the best pilot?

Is it Chuck Jaeger, Bob Hoover perhaps? or is it that monkey that went up into space?

Stupid statement, Mr Silverhawk

Expect to be barred after this, but like I said I'm bored now.

Oh I forgot to mention that we should all re-read the post by BRANLEUR ( nice name my friend ) and take note.

I\'m sure we have all been unemployed at some stage in our careers, and as our french friend says..a job in the hand is better thean 2 in the bush!!.

Merci, et bon vol tout le monde

[publius]

Oh Mumble.........you're bored so easily........looks more to me like you were very quickly put back into your box.......lack of intelligence is subjective, on the other hand the facts are not.......if you don't give a damn about what people think then I feel sorry for you, your fellow crew members and especially your customers who pay ALOT of money for the priviledge to fly with someone who 'doesn't give a damn'.......

Muumble says, "On top of that, most people get fired for a reason, not just because the sun stops shining out their arse, as you so immaturely put it."........we are obviously not talking about the same company mumble.....

PPrune Towers says, "We at the Towers have to make it utterly clear that NJE are facing contract disputes taken to law at a rate a magnitude greater than we have ever seen at any airline.

May I suggest that if you just face the facts, stop your denial you'll be half way to convalescence and recovery and be able to enjoy your job even more( that is though until somebody decides you have an attitude problem, or you part your hair in an inappropriate manner.) As for silverhawk, LIS, jammers kelly hopper etc. they are not the slightest bit worked up nearly about this subject as you have obviously come across.....they simply are IMHO trying to expose the underhandedness of this unknown entity called 'NJE' and are concerned about the erosion worldwide of this profession, especially regarding renumeration, working conditions and contracts that reflect the laws of the countries you operate in. Never has the question been ever answered in a direct fashion by the NJE cheerleaders as to when does you Duty Day start, though at this point I think we all know the answer.........regardless of when or where you start or the duration of your deadhead to meet your aircraft, your duty day
starts ( like they say on broadway 'showtime') is 90 min. prior to your departure.........a direct contradiction to Portuguese INAC Regs........being on the brink of full JAA membership and having full JAA membership are two totally different things.....apples and oranges.......Wake up and smell the roses......working 6-11 days a month, how could I be bitter......cynical about NJE and their US labour practices, you are correct. The information I receive from many friends who work for the 'firm' confirm what you call 'diatribe'..........my condolences on not getting into AF.

SALUT:ok:

"NJE drivers - You reap what you sow until the reform wing makes genuine progess in Lisbon. It is a contract job with no protection in law anywhere in the world while operations are predicated under flight time limitations that are bent and being savagely attacked by accident investigators and national authorities throughout Europe"........PP Towers says it all doesn't it, but then again what would he know moderating one of the largest Professional Pilot web-sites in the world:D

[mumble xp]

Oh Dear,

Did poor little publius get fired by Netjets?

If you have " many friends" who work for "the company" , as you say you do, then why are they still there if the conditions are so crap??

Smells like Buls**t to me.

Or is it because most lazy people who don't want to work have to find something to whinge about?

Some corrections to your long winded cut and paste post....

I don't have a box to be put into. By anybody.

I'm not French

And I didn't apply to AF.


Standard incorrect facts, again.

Yawn yawn

[publius]

Mumble,

You've been given enough 'SIM' time to put the facts straight over the past few months........fired from NJE....LOL....I've never been that desperate, or should I say I've been fortunate enough in my career not to have to contemplate a two bit contract job with any company, especially NJE.....my friends are there because of the cyclical nature of the industry we work for, and there is little else out there.....where the hell have you been for the last few years......makes me wonder how the hell you ever got a flying job with the lack of knowledge you have on current events, even the way you go on and on in your denial of the facts that are CONSTANTLY presented to you in easy to read anglais.....now I'm bored......try reading Towers post again, nice and slowly with a scotch in one hand and let it sink in.......the denial thing is hard to face, but stick with it kid, you can do it!!!


PPRuNe Towers:

Mumble,

Nice try at the good cop smoke and mirrors routine but you must know that it only works on the children who've never worked in the business. I let your first missive pass but not a second time.

Your 'rebutals' are incredibly carefully worded semantic nulls. Being polite doesn't actually help - bluff and bluster would actually disguise the lack of substantive denial to greater effect.

If you actually believe one word of the bollocks you're spouting just give the punters here on PPRuNe the name and address of the company employing you - that's the name and address on your contract. That is to say the company you would have to resolve any dispute with in the unfortunate case that the sun might not be seen to shine out of your fundament anymore?

4HolerPoler

Thanks Rob, I couldn't have hoped to put it so eloquently myself.

Try staying awake at your next CRM Mumble, you might learn something.

[mumble xp]

You're getting very good at the old cut and paste chum, be tying your own shoelaces next!!

Obviously you don't have an opinion of your own. No, you just copy everyone else.

I've asked the other people on this tread to substantiate ( that means prove, by the way ) their claims of NJE misdealings with regard to the FTL scheme, and suprise suprise...NO ANSWERS.

Why don't you admit that this is a RUMOUR network, and that most threads start with the immortal " heard this from some guy the other day...can anyone tell me if it's true..."

Better PM 4HP so he can tell you what to write next time out !!

Oh, and please don't call me kid.

toodle pip ol boy

[High Viz Vest]

Is this thread raging because Netjets (not the pilots) just p1ss people off generally?

They are taking over the GA world as we have known it for so many years, they have put people out of work by having their very aggressive sales teams constantly pester aircraft owners (and I guess potential owners) into using their aircraft rather than their own.

Everywhere you go now you see Netjets pilots and aircraft. For those of us in GA it is like watching the plague spread and wondering when it will be our turn next to start looking for another job. It is understandable then, when told that Netjets have the best pilots that people get a bit defensive. Netjets has many ex corporate and air taxi pilots working for them and I know one or two of the older guys working for NJE and they are very good pilots, always have been as long as I have known them, but that has got nothing to do with NJE.

NJE also have many very low hour pilots, some who seem to be posting in here, obviously very happy with their shiny new jobs, and quite rightly so, they get half descent money not particularly bad conditions and get to go home once every six days.

So would it not have been better to have the advertising slogan to read, “Netjets employ some of the better pilots, but we also employ some with little experience”.

Would the ‘best’ pilots have bent the wings on a Citation Excel (twice!), the mod to the flaps is now called the “Netjets mod”. Handling agents Europe wide don’t seem to have a nice thing to say about Netjets, they are pushy and demanding, but then they would say that to me because I don’t work for Netjets.

One final question, and I admit it is slightly off topic, If I own a share in the next Netjet excel that bends its wings and maybe doesn’t recover, am I liable for any damage or death (heaven forbid) caused if law suits start flying around as they do these days when the insurance money isn’t enough to cover the liabilities? I’m just trying to build up ammunition to fight the next onslaught of Netjet phone calls ;)

[shenzi_rubani_HTAR]

I don't know why you all are continually hacking on NJE? Mostly it sounds like sour grapes! What company in the world does not want to advertise they `have the best pilots'? Would it be good marketing to say they had morons for drivers? As for a company growing and being compared to a plague......its called capitalism! Its growing for a reason, try a good product for the customer.
As for `bad' pilots, only flown wih one....but he was french....

[High Viz Vest]

Anyone who says we are the best or I have the best is leaving themselves open to criticism, people are just waiting to see them cock up.

Of course its sour grapes!
:ok:

[shenzi_rubani_HTAR]

You got it Viz! I guess we see it everywhere; even in sports, aye?
Rock On! :ok:

[Flaps39]

Did NetJets enrolled pilots with less than ATPL and 1500TT ?

I have been told that, but was it just at the begining?


Thank you !

[LVL CHG]

How many European Netjets pilots fly the new GIVs (how many pilots for that fleet)? How many GIVs will be added? I imagine it is going pretty senior...

When hired, where will most newhires go - Excel, Hawker, Bravo? Are newhires EVER given a choice or is it just a matter of need?