Mac PC emulator runs very slowly

[Timothy]

A customer has the following configuration:

I am using an Apple Mac G4 using OS 9.2.1
Built in memory 640MB
Virtual Memory 641MB
Largest unused block 341.9MB
Using Virtual PC Version 5.0
Memory being used by Virtual PC is 138 MB (21%)

...and says that the emulator runs like a dog.

His Mac dealer says that everything is set up correctly.

Can anyone (Danny?) suggest what might make the emulator so slow, and what can be done to improve matters?

TIA

W

[amanoffewwords]

Should have got a PC.




(Sorry couldn't resist it!)

[Front_Seat_Dreamer]

Have to agree with amanoffewwords

;)

my brother tells me you probably need OS X but what does a guy who makes a living out of drawing on a computer know?

[ORAC]

Nothing! I've had a look and every single review I've seen refers to how slow it is. e.g. MacAddict (http://www.macaddict.com/issues/0204/rev.vpc5.html):

"We used a PC diagnostic utility to determine the speed and breed of our emulated PC. On a 600MHz iBook, it translated to a 400MHz Pentium Pro; on a Dual 800MHz G4, it was a raging 530MHz--maybe enough for a game of Scrabble." :ooh:

[Danny]

Yep, I use it on a 800MHz G4 and it runs slow. I never expected it to be anything else. All I use it for is to test PC browsers when modifying stuff on PPRuNe and to remind me how cr@p most PC operating systems are! :8

If he bought it without reading reviews and expects it to blaze along like a real PC then it will be disappointing. If you only want it to run some obscure PC software that doesn't require blindingly fast CPU then it's great.

For most peoples computing requirements of word processor, spreadsheet and internet, you wouldn't need a PC emulator. Almost anything sent to you from a PC can be opened in the equivalent Mac program. Had to reload Windoze 98 once.... never again. :* What a pain that was.

[Timothy]

ORAC

Thank you, I'll forward that to the customer.

Danny

I am disappointed. You wrote to me a little while backYes, there are one or two specialist programs such as the flight logging ones you mention that are not available for the Mac OS but so what? All you need is Virtual PC for the Mac and you can run any PC package you already have in a seperate window, including all the 'specialist' ones mentioned.and I had this in mind when I told my customer that I had a friend who would probably be able to help sort it out :(

Ah well. I'll just have to pass on amanoffewwords' advice, I guess :(

Is it still possible to buy a PC card for a Mac, or that now history?

W

Oh, and ORAC, your epithet about knowledge reminds me of something my son said yesterday. If you drop a penny from the Empire State Building it can kill someone on the ground. Imagine what would happen if you dropped a five pound note!

[Hwel]

I run virtual PC 6 (win98 se) on a G4 powerbook with 640mb ram I set the pc memory to 256MB and it runs quite reasonably, I mainly use it for my logbook and word. before i upgraded the memory it ran like a sloth. The advantages of the Mac far outweigh the small disadvantage of using virtual pc.

[ORAC]

All the cards are discontinued, even if you get hold of one, they have processors slower than the present VPC emulation speed. See here (http://www.macwindows.com/emulator.html#PCEmulators).

VPC Helper (http://www.infamus.com/vpchelper/#req) might help show an improvement in speed.

[Danny]

Sorry, but I fail to see where I ever advocated using a Mac running a PC emulator solely to run PC programmes. Defeats the purpose doesn't it?

All I ever stated was that you can run PC programmes on a Mac if you have the need. If it is your primary need then I think even someone who is a leddite would be able to figure out that it would be better to get a PC in the first place.

For anyone with normal PC needs for internet access, word processing, spreadsheet and graphics then a Mac is by far the better option for functionality, design and practicality. To expect an 'emulator' to somehow run faster than the machine it runs on defeats logic.

Sorry you feel that you have been somehow conned but as I mentioned above, the best reason for running a PC emulator on a Mac is to remind you how utterly pathetic the world of Windoze really is when it comes to operating system design and functionality. No one ever denied that you can get a squillion GHz Pentium Megathumping PC compared to the latest Apple Mac G5 (http://www.apple.com/powermac/) which I believe only claims to be a 2GHz machine. However, I believe that far too many people believe that just because their PC has a Squillion GHz that somehow that in itself means something.

[Timothy]

Danny

This particular customer is the marketing department of a significant regional performing arts venue. He has a Mac because he perceives (rightly or wrongly) that it is better than a PC for design layout for marketing material. (The rest of the network is PCs).

However he also wishes to get access to the PC-only Box-Office system, and the venue management software (wot we provide) and I suggested that he tries the emulator.

However, what does surprise me is that the review suggested by ORAC says that he should get P400 performance and frankly that would be perfectly adequate; what he actually gets is more akin to treacle (Control Panel takes 2 mins to load).

I do find the combination of All you need is Virtual PC for the Mac and you can run any PC package you already have in a seperate windowandI fail to see where I ever advocated using a Mac running a PC emulator solely to run PC programmes a little disingenuous, but we'll let it pass because it doesn't seem worth the candle arguing about.

What would be more interesting would be to pursue hwel's point about the extra memory allocation. Do you (all of you) think that he should up the memory on the G4 to more than 640Mb if he is going top allocate 256 to Virtual PC and still wants to use the G4 for his design work, WP etc?

W

[ORAC]

Try the VPC helper I linked above and also see here (http://forums.macrumors.com/archive/topic/5561-1.html). Where it is recommended that you give it at least 256Mb of RAM and:

"1) Prebind. This helps everything.
2) Put VPC on its own disk if possible. The majority of the slowness is the disk access. Everytime you do something in VPC it goes for the HD. By having it on its own, fast drive, then it will help.
3) Keep the file system as FAT. Going to FAT 32 or especially NTFS will make it run dog slow.
4) Make a second drive for Apps for VPC. Do not install anything but the OS on the main drive. This will keep fragmentation down on the main drive, and will allow for a better virtual system.
5) Try to save the state as often as possible, but close the system down at least once a week."

Regarding the Windows OS, which you don't seem to mention, from here (http://www.connectix.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=28&t=000116&p=2), use either Win95 (not Win98 or Me) or Win2K.

And from the Technical Manual here (http://www.connectix.com/downloadcenter/pdf/vpc5m_technical_update_031702.pdf):

Q: What are the best performance tips for Virtual PC 5?
A: 1. Avoid running other compute-bound applications while you are running Virtual PC.

2. Run Virtual PC in full screen mode.

3. When running multiple Guest OSes simultaneously make sure the background PC's are paused. In the Virtual Preference Settings, the PC Behavior Setting should be set to Pause Other PCs.

4. Make sure you have the appropriate amount of memory assigned to the Guest OS. Refer to your manual for the recommended minimum requirements.

5. In the Settings for your specific Guest OS disable Networking and USB if you are not using them.

Here (http://www.connectix.com/ubb//ultimatebb.php?category=1) are all the Microsoft Connectix forums.

[Timothy]

ORAC

This all sounds incredibly helpful, thank you. I will pass it on and see if he can and will do this stuff. At least he can't say that he's tried everything!

I am really very grateful!

W

[Hwel]

TCS the reasons for having a mac are thats its totally stable, no blue screen of death, less viruses, fully integrated applications, itunes and its gorgeous to look at. (did I mention Itunes).
wcollins I always think that in general you cant have to much memory. Its quite cheap at the moment as well. Its a good point about pausing the other system thats in the background that helps as well.

[Timothy]

Hwel

Thank you, I will pass that on as well. I still wonder if he wouldn't be better to buy a £400 PC and a screen switcher, but hey! it's his life! ;)

W

[Naples Air Center, Inc.]

Hwel,

mac are thats its totally stable, no blue screen of death

Since the wide spead release of WinXP there has been very little problems with BSODs for the average PC user. I usually run comps over 1 month straight without rebooting, and no problems what so ever. The only reason I reboot my home computer every two hundred hours is because I am swapping hardware. After running 200 hours without problems, those components are burnt in and little chance of them failing.

Take Care,

Richard

[Front_Seat_Dreamer]

Just a thought.

If your customer has a Win 2K network have you thought of using some kind of terminal services client to connect the Mac to the server to run the appropriate apps.

One small problem though, having just checked you will require OS X to run the free app.

Click Here (http://www.microsoft.com/mac/downloads.aspx?pid=download&location=/mac/DOWNLOAD/MISC/RDC.xml&secid=80&ssid=9&flgnosysreq=True) for info.

And yes I agree with Naples AC Inc. that windows Xp pro runs regularly for me until I need to install hardware or the battery runs out travelling (doh). I too would never install any previous windows versions on my own machines, but sadly am on the lookout for an old Mac to play with you understand... ;)

[Timothy]

Even W2k is pretty stable. BSOD was really a phenomenon of the W9x series (which was !!!! and no longer supported).

W2K and WXP don't seem to be as unstable, presumably because they run each application in its own memory space.

I rarely reboot my laptop, preferring to suspend or standby.

I also have seen Macs crash in pretty horrible ways.

But everyone can decide for themselves without any of us feeling that we have to talk others out of their preferences.

FSD

I thought only Citrix (=$$$$$$$$$$) supported TS on the Mac. I'd love to be wrong. :)

W

[Hwel]

naples glad XP's working for you one of the reasons I switched was stability, now that I'm mac'd up I cant see myself going back. mac's just kinda grab at your soul in a way PC's dont.
Still this isnt sorting Mr collins's problems so I'll shut up now.

[Naples Air Center, Inc.]

Hwel,

That is why there are so many different types of computers, because no one computer fits everyone's needs.

Personally I like the extra options with PCs and will not go back to Mac, others like the features Macs offer.

There are no right and wrong answers here. It is 100% personal preference.

Take Care,

Richard

[PPRuNe Towers]

Slam in the Ram.

The Mac isn't emulating Windows - it is running a real genuine, licensed copy.

The emulation is creating a wintel CPU - an old wintel CPU at that and thus based on a structure that is pre gigahertz plus processors.

If the mac's memory is entirely subsumed by pretending to be a CPU, the operating system and program you're trying to run is being mainly done by paging to and from disk.

At some point all of you had had a system config or program where that happened and it's not nice.

Buckets full of memory plus the other advice given is the way to go.

Regards
Rob

[ITCZ]

TCS, I earned my money pre-aviation as a MCSE. I did Windows, Office, etc, on hardware dating from 386s to pentium 3, on op systems from CP/M thru MSDOS 2 thru to Win98. I have also worked in the past on Unix, Vax/VMS and IBM mainframe environments

Two months ago I bought an eMac G4/1GHz/640MByte/40GByte for AU$1,780 running mac OSX, cheaper than any cash-and-carry department store Win XP machine.

And it out-performs any Win XP machine that costs up to 50% more.

No blue screens. Not one lost minute of productivity getting a driver to work, or finding the .dll that the latest program calls for.

Programs that are user-focussed and aware of each other. Superb graphics and audio capabilities in a basic machine.

Unfortunately the rest of the world is flooded with cr@p. This now I know. Took almost 20 years.

Wanna run PC programs like JeppView? Go to a garage sale and buy an old Win98 machine for the equivalent of one overnight allowance.

I pooh-poohed Macs for eons. I was wrong. Time to take a look at REAL value in a computer, TCS.

[PPRuNe Towers]

TCS,

As the recent viruses and worms have amply demonstrated you and the majority of this very useful forum are freaks:} :}

The vast majority of home PC users had none of the service packs, updates and security patches on board. Ask any PC shop after the last demented 10 days:uhoh: :uhoh:

Your list of fab components are gibberish to the vast majority as well. They are buying computers as white goods for the basics. They follow the advice of any anorak they know to be pointed in roughly the right direction.

They are buying machines unsuitable for their needs because they want a working basic computer not a new hobby. Is this too difficult for PC enthusiasts to understand??? Please just spend half an hour reading this forum as if you just wanted a computer than did e-mail, printed photos and sent them to family over the net.

If you know the name of your motherboard you are a freak in the eyes of 90 plus percent on this site and the rest of the real world. The luxury car analogy is utterly wrong because you are working from your enthusiasts' baseline instead of the vast majority of users. A more realistic view is that you think cars were spoiled the day they took away your lever for advancing and retarding the ignition yourself:E :E

I know that my MX5/Miata/Eunos will fly if I spend the 15 minutes to retime to 14 degrees BTDC rather than 10 degrees although I`ll have to watch carefully for detonation on hot days or with suspect fuel. However, this also means I am a freak in the eyes of the other 250,000 MX5 users who couldn`t give a stuff and thoroughly enjoy the car the way it came from the factory thank you very much................

Same with computers but ordinary people will persist in asking advice from propellorheads who think the stuff on this forum is fun.

It is not fun - it's a pain for the vast majority. That's why they don't run any service packs at all or actively utilise virus protection. They are no more interested in this crap than you are in my ignition timing. Windows and the wintel system will stay crap until you bozos stop helping, stop enjoying this arcane nonsense and the real users demand something that works properly. Just how long would the car industry last if your car ecu started giving giving you the blue sceen of death?????

Other than that - excellent post:ok: :ok: :} :}

Rob

[Naples Air Center, Inc.]

Rob,

WinXP configured properly does not give BSODs, and WinXP does the auto update for you. All you have to do when it updates is hit the button saying it is done and the computer would like to reboot.

Still it comes down to what the person prefers, PC or MAC. That is why there are so many choices out there. Everyone is different.

Take Care,

Richard

P.S. I just chipped my car and boost the HP to 355bhp. I also know the every detail about my mobo. Does that make me a double freak? :eek: :confused: :eek: :confused:

[PPRuNe Towers]

Makes me an ex PC freak and a saddo car freak Richard. I've long held the view that if we'd ever started a car forum here on PPRuNe the aviation content would have been forced into the shade in a matter of months:O :O

Stand by my point though. An enforced stay in another part of the UK in the last two weeks saw me helping out at a really good, local computer store. I can categorically assure you that XP Home edition users have not been using the auto update feature. Most work on the if it ain't broke principle - this went for their virus updating as well:mad: :mad:

This isn't a wintel versus Mac thing - it goes much deeper in my view. An entire industry sells itself on ease of use and practicality but as you pointed out a few weeks ago if you stay away from the state of the art discussion forums for more than a couple of weeks you really feel you're losing touch. I used to be the same way.

Reality is that the overwhelming majority simply buy, plug in the power and comms and work the machine in that state till it stops. They don't update OS, drivers, programs or anything else - it's just supposed to work. That's not hearsay, it is simple maths comparing the non pro networked licence users versus the uptake in service packs and security patches. In percentage terms it's not even double digit uptake.

If you sense any bitterness in the foregoing it's still not a Mac versus PC thing. Sad fact is that 80% of our mailbag here at the Towers is pathetically inept users baffled by the most basic aspects of using a computer. We're talking the level of ''what's logging in??'' :{ :{ :{

Regards
Rob

This threadcreep has been brought to you as a service to soothing my tortured soul after years of answering our admin mail.

PS If I add up the power on the Volvo, the Mazda and the C90 in the tailwheeler I share I can beat your chipped beast....... just.

[Naples Air Center, Inc.]

Rob,

I know what you mean, talking about people not knowing anything about their computers. I gave my father his first computer back in 1994. He still to this day calls me up to ask how to cut and paste. I have taught him dozens of times. Each time he tells me I never taught him that before.

My father is very old school. He ran his businesses without any computers till the day he retired. He would always say, computers were not from his generation and he had no plans of ever using them.

Well, if the cable modem or the mail server ever go down, he is immediately on the phone to me. I think it is that feeling you are cut off from the world when you do not have the information available at your fingertips that the internet provides. Also, he has friends all around the world that he made when he competed in the Olympics in the 60's and 70's. He as been able to fire up the friendship again though email that just was not there with the yearly christmas card.

He is of the mindset that the computer is pure magic and something he will not understand, so he does not try to. He just wants it to work and if it does not, my phone rings seconds later.

I have seen may people out there that think exactly as my father does.

Take Care,

Richard

P.S. With that comment I thin we have successfully hijacked WCollins' thread! :D

[Timothy]

Oh, Hijack away! Whip out your Swiss Army Knives and do your worst...I got the information I needed days ago :p

I too provide computer support to everyone in SE England who has my phone number. This is a total pain in the arse. The trouble is, there is not one person among them I want to say no to. Not my father, my wife, my children, my cousin dying of cancer, not the widow of my friend who died of cancer. not my sister, my niece, my father in law, nor any of my colleagues on the bench etc etc.

The trouble is that I say yes to all of them and get absolutely no time to myself. Zilch.

It's a real quandary.

W

[ITCZ]

WCollins, you would be in exactly the same trouble if you were an auto mechanic, a doctor, a house painter or a plumber......

Thank god we are pilots and not in charge of the ticketing!

"Er, ITCZ, could you just come over and take a look at my basic IF scan....."

:)

As for VALUE, aka $250 pc vs. $1000 mac....... I had a Win98 box that owed me maybe US$50 as my only machine for 5 years. But if I costed my time spent fixing it and getting it to work at a mere US$20/hr, it would still be worse value than my mac.

Like saying a 1966 mini for your 'airport and back' car that has a 'special start routine' that frequently requires opening the bonnet/hood, breaks down when it rains, wakes your wife when you leave to sign on at 0400, needs a new something every couple of months, and requires an average of 2hrs of your mechanical input each week --- is that better value than a 1997 nissan coupe?

[PPRuNe Towers]

Spooky ITCZ - my Cooper is being viewed for sale today for exactly those reasons. The MX5 that's replaced it should hopefully work out to be a Mac-like experience:uhoh: :uhoh: :uhoh:

....... and that's it I promise. No motoring and computer issues forum - err, umm, unless we've got an ecu re-mapping ace in the ranks:ok: :ok: :ok:

Regards to all,
Rob Lloyd

PS Richard. Pa Lloyd turned 80 this last Easter. Wartime heavy bomber pilot and now digital artist. Two desktops, one laptop, widecarriage inkjet and graphics tablets littering the house.

Doesn't do the updates either and had no antivirus till last week:confused: :confused: :confused:

[PPRuNe Towers]

Fix it as in it's a constant problem for you?

If that's the case my guess is you might be using Netscape 4.7? If not give me a hint on the page wrap problem you are experiencing.

Regards
Rob Lloyd

[Danny]

Nothing to do with Macs. vB has the odd bug in it. The 'code' (#) code dosen't wrap but the 'quote' bit should do it for you: ALIGN=right><ahref='http://www.pprune.org/phpAdsNew/adclick.php?nnerid= 88&amp;zoneid=72&amp;source=&amp;dest=http%A%2F%2Fwww.pprune.org%2Fgo. php%3Fgo%3D%uotereq.htm' target='_blank' onMouseOver="self.status='Visit:ne.org/go.php?go=/quotereq.htm'; returntrue;"ouseOut="self.status='';returntrue;"><imgsrc='http://66.40. 26.138/aads/120x60a.gif'width='120' height='60' alt='http://www.pprune.org/go.php?=/quotereq.htm' title='http://www.pprune.org/go.php?o=/quotereq.htm' border='0'></a><OICAB N=64>

Will pass on your points to vB!

[ITCZ]

Have found one irritating limitation though

Chat programs, esp with cam and sound. Grr. Think I will start a topic.........

[Timothy]

I was about to say....

Hijack is one thing, but this is tantamount to a hostile takeover of the whole airline :p

W

[Ausatco]

It's been a fascinating thread and I for one thank you all for the entertainment.

Vive la difference!

AA