Blackburn Buccaneer, Did it beat the Yanks?

[Vfrpilotpb]

Some of you older Mil pilots may be able to throw light on this, but I remember my uncle telling me about some sort of international contest to see who's Air Force had the best bits, either hardware or pilots, I think in the seventies or therabouts, a Buccaneer took part in one of these contest's and was flying so low over the desert that it was dragging dust and debris behind it, the gunners who were tasked to defend the target, couldn't get a bead on these Buc's because they were too low and fast, the Buc went on to win the contest, did any of you take part in any of these things, but what made the Buc so able to out perform the more up to date heavy fast stuff?

[BEagle]

Training and skill!

[newswatcher]

Guess this was the "Red Flag" competition at Nellis. I believe that the RAF first took part in 1977 - 10 Buccaneers and 2 Vulcans. They performed very well until 1980, when an accident, which killed both crew, lead to the grounding of all Buccaneers whilst the front wing spar was checked for fatigue. The BB continued to participate until 1983.

[Suit]

vfrpilotpb,

You are referring to Red Flag 1977 in Nevada. It was the first time that the RAF had been invited to participate in this large US multi threat environment exercise in which large packets of mixed aircraft were pitted against pretty realistic and extensive simulated EW, AAA and SAM defences. We sent a Vulcan and Buccaneer detachment. Whilst not disagreeing one jot with BEags it was more the tactics employed that knocked the Americans off their perches. They had precious little exposure to hard aggressive low level flying of the sort that the Buccs in particular specialised in. The famous incident that has passed into urban flying legand is of a TV repeat of an optical tracker. The screen is tracking a very aggressively flown Bucc at VERY low level and the sound track records various voices saying, to all intents and purposes, "Goddam, I'm gonna go outside and watch this!"

The Buccs were pretty spectacular, even the one that flew into the ground the following year after suffering a fatigue crack in it's wing spar went out in rather spectacular style(RIP). The old Vulcoon was good but not quite as good, no way could you avoid the rather big shadow cast by that huge wing.

So it wasn't a competition, but the spams were pretty gob smacked!

Suit

[Gainesy]

May be apocryphal, but I once heard that the Bucc mates also used large quantities of newspaper, dumped from the airbrake or weapons bay to simulate a "Knickers" if any of the F-5s got anywhere near their six.

[Vfrpilotpb]

Thank you all ,

It must have been something to be able to work with such kit, I stood under a BB once and was amazed at the sheer size of the landing Oleo's and shafts, thought stuff of that size was only found on HGV's. :)
Many Regards

[BEagle]

To give people an idea of the size of a Bucc - if you entered the radio bay through the access hatch, it was actually possible to stand upright inside the thing! The radio bay was at the back inside the coke-bottle area rule bulge. Good hidey-hole for demi-johns of Keo brandy (or kokkinelli if you really wanted it!), crates of Wobbly or wine from Das Reich etc etc - allegedly!!

[Constable Clipcock]

Then there was the Buc that lost its radome during another Red Flag — by clipping a telephone cable in a climb. The phone company linemen who went out to repair the damage said they measured the height of the cable along that stretch at 42 feet above ground level. The point at which the Buc hit the cable was doubtlessly a foot or two lower due to catenary effect (sag).

More Buccaneer tidbits:<ul type="square"> Drooled over by the US Navy when it first came out, and was evaluated for possible adoption. The only overwhelming reason why the Grumman A-6 Intruder won seemed to be because it was a US design and the Buc wasn't. The M-14 beat the FN-FAL in a similar service test series WRT the replacement for the old M-1 service rifle for the same reason: NIH syndrome. The Federal German Bundesmarine had pushed for the adoption of the Buc as a naval interdiction machine as well. Due to diplomatic pressure from the US, and a push for commonality of equipment with the Luftwaffe, they got the F-104G instead.[/list]

[Speedbird48]

There was also a famous news clip here in the US showing a Buccaneer coming around a rock in the Nevada desert and the commentator completly lost it.
It started as "Here comes one of the British Buccaneers" and ended up as "LOOK AT THAT MOTHER GO". And go he did, with the dust being picked up by the wingtip vortices. Wonderful stuff.
Great machines and great crews.

[Stan Evil]

There were two consectutive, 2 week, detachments to Nellis in 1977 for Red Flags 77/8 and 77/9. Rumour control had it at the time that, after the first fortnight when the Cousins had not scored a single Bucc kill, a colonel was despatched to Washington to explain why the 'Most Powerful Nation on Earth' couldn't shoot them down. For the second fortnight the rules of the game were changed a little. The Bad Guys at Red Flag were supposed to operate their kit as though it were Soviet which, at the time, meant no look-down-shoot-down. For Red Flag 77/9 the Bad Guys suddenly had F-15s at their disposal and anything else needed to get a Bucc.

For the Vulcan buffs, the aircraft for 77/9 were hastily repainted with the undersurfaces 2-tone brown as the light grey glinted in the sun; the shadow was still a big problem and so routes were picked that stayed close to the mountain ridges and avoided the salt flats.

[Gainesy]

Some of the 208Sqn Buccs were also painted sand & brown for the later Red Flags

[208]

rumour had it, that one way we confused the oposition was when they sneaked up for a shot the Bucc opened its brakes and stopped reletivly speaking. This pissed off the shooter who had just lined up the good shot.....as he overtook

[the funky munky]

I was once told that by the time the yanks had got a firing solution on the buccaneer, they ran out of fuel so thats why they complained.
What do you expect when you take on one of the fastest of FJs at sea level without requiring afterburners.

[Stan Evil]

And another thing . . . On one of the 'Flags the Buccs claimed a kill against an F-5 despite carrying no defensive armament in those days. They simulated dropping a 1000 pounder retard as the F-5 closed in and were credited with a kill from the 1000 pounder's explosion not many feet below the F-5.

[solotk]

For some sad reason, this is one of those aviation things you never forget....

it was on the BBC news magazine programme "Nationwide", which featured the schoolboy dreamboat Sue Lawley. it was Red Flag, and the buccaneer driver was having what is loosely described as a "flying like a god" day. I will never forget that, he was using absolutely EVERY inch of airspace available, and was terminally "Fangs Out" The wingtip vortices were milk white and there was a sandstorm in his wake. The optical tracking USAF guys, were simulating a SAM site, and they had to keep the crosshairs on the Bucc for 5 seconds to score a kill. I remember the excitement in the control room, with various comments like "God Damn" and "That guy can fly" the one that sticks in my mind, is the operator in charge of making the kill, towards the end, just screaming at the top of his voice "GO BABY GO BABY GO BABY GO" .I applied for my test in advance at Biggin Hill the following day.

When I was being interviewed post selection tests, the I/C board, (Wing Cdr. Gordon Massey) asked me why I wanted to join the Air Force. I forgot my carefully rehearsed "battle of britain" speech, and just told them how I felt, seeing that buccaneer trash the best the septics had to offer. I passed....lol

If I ever meet that Buccaneer God, I'll buy him all the booze he ever needs.

Tony

[Navaleye]

I see most US websites and reference books still talk about the A6 Intruder as being the best martime strike a/c ever (well they would) My money is on the Bucc. Does anyone have any first hand experience of the two that can give us any insight?

[BOAC]

The 'HGV' legs were, I think, a hangover from its original design and use as a carrier-based a/c.

Regarding the clamshell airbrake, I was once in hot pursuit of a pair in my Lightning over Suffolk at 20k in the mid-seventies when 'pop' went the airbrakes and down went the Buccs, hanging like parachutists in the air, while I whistled past and just about dropped one over Bury St E, which unfortunately about 3 days later experienced me in reheat trying to catch a pair of Buccs who were at 2'6" (or less) at 500kts+.

What a machine:ok: Everyone said it was SO stable at low-level.

Belated apologies, Bury! I should say THEY went over and I went well, kind of round:D

[TheOddOne]

Here's another, entirely different Buccaneer story...

Shortly before retirement, the Bucaneer was apparently used for tankage duties. A pair of Tornadi from a base 'somewhere in Scotland' met a Buc loitering over the North Sea, refuelled on their way to a range in West Germany. The Buc continued to loiter, again giving them fuel on the way back and all 3 a/c recovered to base. The Buc was found to have 1,000lb of tankage fuel left over. So, instead of carrying this excess fuel, the Buccaneer could have carried a 1,000lb munition, refuelled the Tornados, ACCOMPANIED THEM TO GERMANY, DROPPED THE ROUND, THEN REFUELLED THEM ON THE WAY HOME!! Does this speak volumes about the capabilities of the aircraft or the deficiencies of the Tornado, or a bit of both???

TOO

[The_Baron]

Remember seeing the video of the ull Bucc when I was at Honnington - anyone got a copy?

[surely not]

This thread makes you wonder why we retired them! Would it have been so difficult to upgrade them to todays standards of electronics?

[BEagle]

When I was going through the Bucc OCU (or rather, trying to...:\), there was a classroom in the groundschool with various bits of ex-Bucc for teaching purposes. Amongst which was an undercarriage leg. "That's a mightily impressive main u/c leg" quoth one of our number....

"Actually, it's a nosewheel leg" said the Instructor.

Bruce Chapell summed it up well - "You don't look for things to chase - you look for things to ram!".

It was an utter pig below 300KIAS - and an utter dream above! Once in my brief F4 days we tried to catch one over the North Sea. Full A/B, up to 550 KIAS and we just couldn't close to 'winder range! Stern AIM7EIII shot? YGBSM at that height!!

During GW1 I tanked a few Bucc/Torn strikes. Always tanked the Tornados - usually both ways. Whereas the Bucc just took a token 1000lb outbound....

But my fondest Bucc memory was the day we helped them say hello to a Sverdlov.........:ok:

[Beeayeate]

Surely there must have been earlier instances of RAF penetration exercises. The Red Flag stuff (above) was 77ish, but I seem to recall a tale about a couple of Vulc exercises that were to attempt penetratation of the US radar or DEW line or summat for target destruction (ie overfly) in the early 70s.

Tale I remember from the time was that to "win" all that was needed was to get past the US interceptors and over-fly the target - some phone box in the wilds of Nevada or some-such. Seems that a Vulc was inbound and had successfully eluded radar painting until just before the US border with Canada. Intercept was called up and the Vulc pulled off - revealing two Buccs that had been flying under its wings. One of these made the target I heard.

Sounds a tad "sand-bucket" this story but I'd like to think there was a grain of truth in it. Beags, this is pretty much in your domain . . . innit! :E

[jindabyne]

MJ

I also seem to recall another Bucc film about 12 Sqn in the late 70's?

[John Eacott]

Early 70's, Boscombe sent a TP to complete the Buccaneer/Martel trials aboard Eagle. Weather wasn't the best, and for one reason or another, the TP elected to operate on a day when the seagulls were walking. Biggest issue was an enormous pitch of 40'+ at the round down :eek:

After trapping (just), the Bucc was shut down in Fly 2. Now, if the oleos were stripped of all seals & hyd fluid and there were no tyres on the wheels, the gear doors have about 1-2" clearance. The Martel ship had hit so hard, both gear doors were dented from contact with the flight deck ;)

Apparently the total u/c weighed in close to 2000lbs (unless that was a furphy to upset us chopper pukes), talk about strong :cool:

It wasn't unknown to be sitting in the dip at 40' in a Sea King, and look out at a Bucc going past at the same level. Or lower if they saw you in time :D

[Vfrpilotpb]

Good morning Gentlemen,

Mere "Civvies" like me and many others, can only read in total wonderment at some of the things you guys have seen and done, it is much to your credit that you are willing to share such information.

many thanks!!

PeterR-B
Vfrpilotpb

[BEagle]

In Sep 88, AOC 18 Gp must have woken up feeling a bit liverish and generally hacked off with all the contemporary Перестро́йка going on at the time. "We will remind Ivan that we can still do the business", he evidently mused. So my crew were tasked with flogging up to the north of Scotland to RV with some Buccs; thence to take them to a suitable drop-off point. Whereupon they would wax the living poo out of an innocent Sverdlov which the maritime secret squirrels knew to be around...

"Where are we going?" "Sorry, it's a secret. Can't tell you"
"OK - how much gas do they want?" "Sorry, can't say"
"GEs - max in tanks please!"

So we rapidly planned our little outing; BZN to WAL to Lossie at FL310. Beyond that? "Err, we'll get back to you" Now, navigators being the cautious folk they are, ours wanted to have at least something to work with. At that point the co-pilot and air engineer went to wind up the jet whilst we pleaded for more gen from either Lossie or that place near Watford. Finally we were given a couple more waypoints.."Drop them here, then wait for them to come back, then give them the gas to get home again". However, "Here" proved to be a very, very long way north, so if they didn't get some gas afterwards they'd be talking the Norwegians into sorting them out. The nav and I went to join the rest, then cranked up and thundered off north in our mighty Vickers FunBus.

Approaching Lossie it was evident that the usual Bucc serviceability had afflicted them as most were just getting airborne but another would be a 'few minutes' late. The secret squirrels were paranoid that their little plan would be rumbled, so we didn't say anything, just zig-zagged north along the planned track waiting for the last mate to arrive. (Some navs are born for such things - but it wasn't him on this trip!). All aboard and off we went; topped them up, updated their position from our INS then off they charged to say hello to Ivan....

By all accounts the Sverdlov was taken completely by surprise and only one plaintive radar emission was noted as the Bucc guys climbed out after a very spirited session indeed! Once we heard them on freq, I told the leader to go to ADF (UHF homer) and gave him a good long transmission to DF. That seemed to help as we soon saw several little brown dots on the horizon as the gang headed inbound. As we headed for home, our nav was busy doing sums. "If the last guy doesn't take too much and we cast them off as soon as we can, then climb to max alt, we shouldn't need to divert on the way back", he said. So we did; left them pointing at their next waypoint all waggy-tailed and happy, then climbed up to FL420 (very high indeed for an ancient VC10K2!), announced to Bodo Oceanic that we were proceding VFR, then adjusted to an IFR level when finally cleared by Saxa. We eased back home at range speed then descended to join downwind visually, landing with about 600kg over min div fuel... 6:40 of real AAR flying, the Buccs got their ship and the point was well and truly made to Ivan! DCO? I think so!!

We got a thankyougram from the Bucc leader (T L-W); the Boss got one from the AOC, who'd had one from his maritime oppo. That's what it was all about back then - and it was truly excellent fun as well!

[yowie]

Great stuff!More,More,give us more!

[LOMCEVAK]

From memory, the Bucc undercarriage was cleared for a maximum rate of descent at touchdown of 840 ft/min at the normal maximum landing weight of 43, 000 lbs.

Talking of Buccaneer low flying video, anyone have a copy of the Beirut overflight BBC filming in 1983 (Operation Pulsator)? Or copies of the Pavespike video taken onboard? It was a once in a lifetime chance to fly between buildings in a capital city and over an international airport at not much above taxying height! The detachment 'T' shirt had the motto "Real men fly through Beirut not over it".

[hairyclameater]

Have got a VHS copy of the 12 Squadron hop to Gib, seen many times as a space cadet as it was a recruiting aid. Great vid in many respects, including the Vangelis soundtrack and the "escort" by an F14! Superb!! circa '78.

Re the Red Flag Vulcans - pics of the desert painted ones are very rare but have found one here;
http://www.avrovulcan.org.uk/steve_oddy/607_nellis_1.htm

This was in '77, following on from the experience and the continued low level flying in Europe, 8 (IIRC) were repainted in all over dk sea grey/ dk green.

Will dig out a shot of a desert Bucc soon, but in the meantime....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v147/AEROMEDIA/Scan44.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v147/AEROMEDIA/Scan45.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v147/AEROMEDIA/Scan46.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v147/AEROMEDIA/Scan49.jpg

[ou Trek dronkie]

What lovely pics !


Mike Janvey, talking of penetrations, I vaguely remember a tale of a Victor (I think), early sixties. It was alleged to have got through all the Air Defence set-up on the eastern seaboard, unauthorised of course, and to have caused some severe problems with TV broadcasting too. When it arrived at Offutt, the crew were arrested (they “forgot” to file a flight plan). The subsequent threat of Courts Martial was dropped at the request of the USAF, who had been shown to be a little less than 100% efficient.

Does the name Harrington ring a bell ? Maybe the old memory is faulty again.

I never did find what all those funny black boxes were really for.

oTd

[ozplane]

Did anybody see over on the "African Aviation" forum that Thunder City's Bucc had an engine failure on t/o and had to land back after dumping fuel? Pilot and I assume the airframe all OK and the dead engine re-lit on the ground..

[Krystal n chips]

Not being pedantic here, but IIRC the Bucc did not have fuel dump capability---fuel leak yes--as I repaired quite a few:mad: --so was this simply a reporting error or has my old age failed me on this one?. Ex Bucc drivers would surely know? Such a shame it's in SA though--would love to see one flying again in the UK--but I am sure the CAA knows best ! :mad:

[FJJP]

I recall being on ex at Gib, holding after landing for the Buccs to dump down to landing weight.

[BEagle]

The Bucc did indeed have a very effective fuel dump system.

[LOMCEVAK]

Yes you can dump fuel from the Bucc. There is an automatic cut-off which stops the dump at a certain fuel weight, but you will have to wait until next week when I can dig out my Aircrew Manual if you want more details.

[lightningmate]

Auto cancel of fuel dump at 4000 lbs rings a bell.

Whilst considering the Bucc fuel system, it had several control switches that pilots could play tunes with. I think most of us managed to cause a little moment of anxiety having been distracted during fuel balancing activities involving the FNA Valves. The actual fuel gauges provided left a lot to be desired - God bless the Totaliser.

lm

[Krystal n chips]

My thanks to all who have replied. My association with the Bucc was primarily Cat 3 fuel leaks in Germany followed by 9 months in the factory gulag known as St. Athan ( before I escaped back to the Air Force ) doing Majors--notably the replacement of the engine spar rings and main u/c pintles--so I was never actually on the beast in an operational capacity--hence my query. Always nice to learn about these things though and I appreciate the response from those who did operate the aircraft.

[EGAC]

On 6 October 1972 a Buccaneer (XV339) on an airtest from RNAY Sydenham was reportedly dumping fuel in preparation for recovery when the dump valve stuck open.

When the engines wound down it failed by just a couple of miles to make the runway and crashed on a filling station in the suburbs of Belfast. There was a low-level ejection with, I believe, minimal injuries to those on board or on the ground.

[HHA Eng]

Have a look at the Hawker Hunter Aviation website for news of the progress of Buccaneer S2B XX885 (now registered as G-HHA A) to flying status. This will be the only flying example in the UK.

www.hunterteam.com

[Fg Off Bloggs]

Sorry, don't mean to brag but it's all true! Flown Bucc and Tornado GR1 and the former beats the latter hands down for range, endurance, ride and, although there was no green writing in the Bucc, a DH on time was more rewarding in the Bucc than in the Tornado where the computer did 99% of the work for you.

Once planned a round the World trip in a Buccaneer from Laarbruch to Laarbruch without the need for air-to-air refuelling. Longest leg was Hickom to McLellan (2300nm) which, with 23K of fuel (internals/UWTs/Bomb Door and Bomb Bay tanks all full) , was just achievable in a Bucc with San Fran as the Div! 30 days with suitable stopovers and a VC10 to support. OK, a few short landings on island hops in the Pacific but definitely doable! Never happened - Political Decision, 'cos the Tornado couldn't hack it.

A statistic. The Avro Lancaster max T/O weight was 63,000lbs achieved from a 1300 sq ft wing area and 4 Merlins. The Bucc's max T/O weight was 62,000lbs achieved with 500 sq ft of wing, 2 Speys and no AB!

[Passenger 9]

Red Flag 1977 in Nevada.
Does anyone have a copy of the TV repeat of an optical tracker, dust trails and all ??? :cool:
I remember it quite clearly and remember being impressed at the time.
Bucc hungry fan :)

[buccsociety]

Passenger 9

I have been searching for the last three years, but have still not found a copy, I have even contacted the BBC, who I found to be rather helpful and suggested other leads, but all to no avail.

One day, something might surface.

[Saab Dastard]

Surely not:

This thread makes you wonder why we retired them! Would it have been so difficult to upgrade them to todays standards of electronics?

I believe that they ran out of airframe hours - would any more knowledgeable care to comment?

Great anecdotes! Great aircraft, great pilots. :ok:

SD

[kevmusic]

I'm not normally a fan of jets (I like ancient prop types) but I've just discovered this thread, and it's got me hooked! :D

[The AvgasDinosaur]

I'm enjoying this thread and would like to contribute albeit 2nd hand. I have a friend of long standing ex Vulcan QFI and 53 squadron Belfast who was with the Vulcans at Red flag. He was nominated not to fly on this particular press day and therefore elected RAF spokesman to a national American TV channel. They had 3 tv crews situated along side the runway. Loosely "Start end" "Mid point" and "stop end". Much attention was focused on the B-52s Being passed from one camera to the next as they departed for the excercise, finally getting airborn more due to the curvature of the earth rather than a triumph of thrust over drag+gravity. Cue Avros finest much roaring and smoke on camera 1, then just before camera 2 on its tail and :mad: off like a homesick angel leaving cameras 2 and 3 scouring the sky!!!:D :D :D Much wailing and gnashing of teeth:ugh: by the luviee types at the comentary position, somewhere in american tv archives is my mate Ice cool as ever " Of course we always fly these excercises at maximum take off weight in order to be realistic" Priceless I wish I could have been there.
Be lucky
David

[jimmyb]

I was an Air Tech on 208 when we went to Red Flag in '77. The UK based aircrews flew during the first slot and the RAFG aircrews during the second. I remember when we climbed off the Herc. after following the squadron from Goose Bay (by way of Offut) we were asked by the USAF liaison officer how many aircraft we had brought. The reply was 12. "How many did you leave the UK with?" he said. The reply was 12. With a look of amazement he pointed to the next dispersal, (populated by a USAF F4 squadron from, Florida). They left with 10 and arrived here with 6.
Somewhere I have the words to the 208 Red Flag squadron song (sung to the tune of "The Battle of New Orleans", goes something like;
On the 18th of August we took a little trip, to a place called Nellis by the Las Vegas strip. They give us f#$*-all money, so we loaded up with booze, and went to show the Yankees what a Buccaneer could do.
Best aircraft ever built.

[FJJP]

Re the Bucc landing gear - I visited Brough once and toured the production line. I'll never forget the manufacturing process of the main leg. They got a billet of steel, ultrasounded, tested and everything to make sure there were no flaws [about 9 out of 10 billets rejected]. The the billet was mounted in a special rig where it was machined [ground down] to the required shape. Awsome!

Another incident of interest was the Vulcan participation in Giant Voice [the USAF annual bombing comp]. The Americans pulled every stunt in the world to ensure that the Vulcan was disadvantage at every turn. One of the stunts they pulled was to have a radar bombing only target, and knowing just how primitive the Vulcan system was, chose a spot in the middle of a featureless flat plain. There were very few radar echos to be had from structures, but the Spams had all sorts of sophistication that gave them an almighty edge. What they didn't bank on was British cunning...

The Brits arranged a bunch of mates [wives?] to have a picnic at a specific location, which was a precisely plotted spot relative to the target coordinates. A large bunch of cars was carefully grouped together with their back end facing a certain direction. At specific times, all the bootlids were opened and kept open for a precise number of minutes/seconds and then closed. This was repeated according to a very precise timetable. You can imaging the radar return that the crews got from this bunch of metal, with highly radar reflective surfaces pointing at them!

At the end of the timetable, the picnic was wrapped up and the cars dispersed. The Spams just could not figure out what this mysterious intermittent radar return was, or how the Brits wiped the floor with them on this impossible target! They never did twig to the appearance of the return coincidental with the Brit bombing runs...

The major lesson that came out of Flag 77/8 was that banking hard at LL exposed the brilliant white underside of the Vulcan, which contrasted vividly against the Brown/sand/salt terrain and could be spotted miles away. Thats why the wrapround camouflage was introduced.

[BeefyBoy]

I was one of a hand picked team of technicians (drinking ability) who went to "Red Flag" in 83 as part of a 2 aircraft detachment to support the Jaguar Squadrons in a Pavespike role. The crews were made up from both XV and 16 Sqn from RAF Laarbruch. This was a very enjoyable trip as it got extended from 4 weeks to 6 weeks due to the Jag crews "cocking it up" (official line from AVM who was in charge, good decision, better suntan) During one of the non "Spiking" days our 2 aircraft were tasked to fly fighter escort for the Jags. On this mission the Jags were bounced by some F15's who latched onto the back of the "Pussycats" but unknown to the Yanks the 2 "fighter" escorts came out hiding, popped up behind them switched on the Pavespike pods simulating a Sidewinder lock on for the correct time limit and later came back claiming 3 "kills" :D
As you would expect the F15 jocks were not very happy bunnies especially when the video footage was shown. I will never forget one of those F15 drivers - right cocky git - spotty faced youth with "Hank the kid from Idaho" stitched on the back of his flying jacket! :yuk:

"Buccaneer by nature - Buccaneer by choice"

[BeefyBoy]

Here are a couple of stories which I've copied from our 16 Sqn Groundcrew website - Stories supplied by members Pug-H and Gran.

"Yo Joe, the Beeb were filming for the 60th Anniversary of the RAF. They also filmed a four ship that flew down the Peri-Track below the line of the ATC Tower roof (the cameras were on the roof). Remember Rob Godin (Gobby), he was up in one of those little towers (for lights I think), we had on some of the pans, to get a better view. As the four ship went past this tower was like a sapling in a gale, I'm sure Gobby went off to change his underwear shortly afterwards!!!!!! It was pretty awesome though, I've never seen a Bucc fly lower (without landing of course!!)
I seem to remember that a Mod was introduced, as a result of that Ken Tait flight, to add straps to the panel (thought I'd get technical there!!!).

*********************************************************
At a beer call, christmas 1975 just after I joined XV, Ken Tait tried convincing me that at 550 knots and 18feet up it would be impossible to fly a bucc into the ground as it would be riding on it's own shockwave. Of course after several bottles of charlie, and equal shots of doppelkorn I believed every word. Ken Tait being Ken Tait spent the next almost 3 years trying to prove it or so it seemed. On one occasion on a flying exercise he flew between my block of flats and and the next on Stettiner Strasse level with my balcony window, we lived on the 3 floor. :D :ok:

[clemson]

being a participant in red flag on a number of occasions (1st/2nd/&4th)as a flm on the Bucc, i saw the reports when we got back ther had to be a special showing for 208's ground crew as the rest of the station had heard how spectacular the films were , one of the comments made by one of the pilots who had taken part was "by the way the trees you will see in this sequence are actually bushes" . to correct a few things commented on earlier, the paper put in the air brakes was actually chaff for anti radar (though it took out marauding fighters that got too close) the u/c legs weighed in at 2tonnes each without wheels and oil, the buccs under the vulcan took place at the first red flag the vulcan was reportedly at 50 feet,gave the opposing fighter pilot a bit of a shock as 3 a/c appeared where he was only expecting one,the yanks tried all sorts of tricks like delaying the fuel bowsers so we would miss our slots and attaching powerfull magnets to vulcan wing tips to upset the compass(alledged) you might be able to get video footage from the govenment under the freedom of info act as it was all classified as secret at the time but may be due for release soon.:ok:

[Mr_Grubby]

A fine picture of an early Bucc.

Clint.

http://www.btinternet.com/~simon.gurry/Dadsphotos/BuccSmall.JPG

[Opssys]

As a result of this thread I have been reading up on the Buccaneer in my copies of Putnam and Project Cancelled (If your British this is NOT a book to read if already depressed) and it does appear particularly sad that at least one of the post-TSR2 Proposals for Buccaneer development didn't even get some serious consideration.
DIH

[Brewster Buffalo]

"Blackburns themselves were convinced that what they had appeared to be an almost ready-made replacement for the TSR2: an aircraft that was well beyond its basic development stage and needing only limited funds in order to take it to the next phase of development.

Although this was an admirable attempt by Blackburns to compete with BAC aircraft, it seemed that what was actually put forward appeared to be little more than an optimistic sales campaign and was never going to be technically feasible, So many radical design changes would have been required to give it both the necessary speed and range that ultimately it would have resulted in a Buccaneer that bore little resemblance to the original submission."

from TSR-2 F Barnett-Jones

[Opssys]

Thanks for the info Brewster B.
I still think it is a crying shame the Airframe and Systems weren't developed beyond the S2 Variants as even some of the less radical concepts would have made what was already a great aircraft awesome.
DIH

[The AvgasDinosaur]

Opssys,
Are any of these advanced varients locatable on the web perchance?
Be lucky
David

[Opssys]

The AvgasDinosaur

David
That is a very good question (and a good idea). So as I wait for the latest tear stains on the relevant pages of my copy of Project Cancel to dry, I think I will have a quick Google to see.
DIH

Update
Checks so far have mainly been on the 'usual suspects' for this sort of information. All mention the P.150 Proposal as passing reference (Post-TSR2 Proposal) and whilst a couple mention the P.140 and P.145 Concepts, little more than the Project Number is stated.

There probably is a site with more information, but I haven't found it (yet)!
DIH