EH101 Merlin

[PUP]

It's not often I work up enough heartbeats to comment here, but lets all remember that the Canadians aren't really ever going to be well-disposed to the 101. They've caught a serious cold over the 101 once in the courts and they're on their way to catching another. Inevitably they are doing anything they can to justify their recent decision to buy the S92, treat what they say with a large pinch of salt.

Finally, with the Boeing anti-Airbus campaign in the background, Sikorsky clearly feel more at ease with using all the tricks in the book to talk down the US101 as they know that if it wins it will change US defence helicopter procurement patterns radically and most importantly at great cost to Sikorsky.

Fortunately with GW' back in the seat they'll have to invent or 'spin' a lot more stories yet!!!

[rjsquirrel]

PUP,

I wouldn't worry about heartbeats, I'd have a serious look at an EEG if I were you. Your point is that all bad EH-101 news is generated by folks out to get it.

In Canada, it is a shame that Agusta doesn't have designers of the calibre of its lawyers.

I see newspaper articles about bad maintenance, facts about extremely high accident rates, and facts about very poor availabliity. These you say are "tricks". How about some facts, PUP? Did the EH-101 have 5 crashes or not (making it the worst helicopter introduction in memory)? Did the Canadians say it is 3 times harder to maintain, or not?

[Lu Zuckerman]

I’m a long time supporter of Sikorsky helicopters but even their best designs will eventually manifest problems. These problems will eventually be solved and as the designs build time the problems are fewer and far between and the seriousness of the problems lessen. The S-92 was designed with the lessons learned from previous designs and it has been designed to the latest FAA design standards. Even with this it will still have teething problems and hopefully these problems will be small and quickly rectified.

The EH-101 was designed to the standards existing twenty or so years ago and a lot of things were not considered relative to safety, reliability, and maintainability. If Lockheed wants to enter the US-101 into competition with the S-92 it will have to redesign the airframe for crashworthiness, to redesign the dynamic systems to improve the airworthiness and the robustness of critical parts in the rotor system and to redesign many of the critical parts to improve safety and reliability. In other words if they are to successfully compete there will have to be a significant redesign and recertification and as such the US-101 will only reflect the EH-101 in planform and not much else.


:E :E

[heedm]

I'd guess that neither manufacturer can stay in business if they produce a bad helicopter. The truth is that both helicopters are in competition. Differences abound, one may shine, but in the end they're both competing.

Choosing the superior helicopter based on media reports is dangerous for a number of reasons. The first being that even the most honest and knowledgeable reporter will only tell a story that will sell. The facts may come from a reliable source but one that only knows a part of the story. Neither is superior overall, but one will prove to be superior when role, cost, national interests, safety, etc. are considered. Before you can pick the superior helicopter, you must understand the role it will fly.

On the website, the US101 team has hired a former presidential pilot who's indicated that the US101 will be good for the job. I'm certain Sikorsky has/could do the same and I'm certain they could support the same claim.

We're fortunate that Nick is here with an understanding of the role and the Sikorsky machine. I appreciate the information he provides. It's too bad there is nobody with that knowledge from the US101 team, it means that we're being educated with media clippings, catch phrases, rumour and speculation.

To set the record straight with respect to the Canadian Cormorants, I'd say that the maintenance man hours should not be used to comment on the machine at this point. The fleet here is small, the experience levels are low, the parts supply network is new (and yes, I understand there have been issues...I'd be more surprised if there weren't), and the environment is extrememly harsh. The machine that was replaced was well understood, not in its infancy, and yet it also had high MMH/FH ratio.

I'm about the truth, I'm not taking sides. I hope the president gets to ride in the best helicopter for the job. I honestly do not know which one that is, but I'd certainly be happy to fly either one of those machines (doubt if I could do it with the president on board...I'm not American).

Most important point here. Nobody died because of a hoist fail or any other part failing. In fact, many lives have been saved because of the capabilities of the Cormorant. I know the mission you're thinking about and its obvious that you don't. It's one thing to lie and/or speculate but to make hard hitting grandiose claims that are completely unsubstantiated is tremendously ungrateful to the people that risk their lives to save others. I shouldn't say what I'm really thinking.

[Jack Carson]

I'll bet if you look into the details all flying S-92's are still flying except one that was taken out of service to be a ground training device. It's class A mishap rate is ZERO over the life of the program to date and every crew member and passanger to ever get on an S-92 walked off at the end of the flight.

[ZH844]

Lu, what the do you mean about 'crashworthiness', in both RN Merlin incidents the crew were in the aircraft at the time of impact and they all survived. On one occasion the aircraft entered the sea at >60kts and the cockpit held together - apparently if the same happened in a Sea King (from the same home as the S-92) there would of been fatalities - the words of the pilot not mine!

This 'crash' issue seems to be something that need clarification. Four airframes have been destroyed due to accidents. Sadly the crew of PP2 lost there lives but in all other cases the crew live to tell the tell. There is a 5th loss being talked about and this could be a reference to PP7 that made a running landing at Malpensa Airport. This wasn't really an accident and following a few repairs flew again soon after - in fact on one flight it took yours truly over Milan in early 98!

Although I have an interest in the EH101 I agree with Heedm in that I am not sure who has the best airframe US101 or S-92 (never flown the S-92) and it won't be the best aircraft to win the VXX contract but the 'right' one - just like Canada..

I will also ask you to think twice and then again when posting 'facts' to this site - I have the resources to check them and will take great pleasure in correcting you!

;)

[NickLappos]

ZH844 ,

It would be good if you had some facts and not rose colored glasses for your favorite helicopter. Lu is right, and he has facts.

The EH-101 has compromised crashworthiness, falling quite short of US military crashworthiness. In a paper written by its designers and in its brochures, it is stated that the EH-101 has 15 G's of crashworthiness. This is remarkably better than a Huey, but far short of the 20 G's required by the US military.

The S-92 meets US Ml spec, at 20 G's.

I can provide the documentation for this to anyone who requests it in a PM to me. I can post it if enough interest is shown. I also understand that the "US-101" will not meet the US military crashworthiness standard until the second increment, thus assuring that a private in the US Army has better crashworthness than the president, should the EH-101 be chosen.

Also, ZH844, since you hold others to facts, you might try to tell the truth in your posts, otherwise we might learn to simply tune you out. The "running landing" at Malpensa that you say "wasn't really an accident" was a tail rotor drive shaft failure, followed by a roll over that had the entire rotor system destroyed, wasn't it? And yes it did re-fly, after 25 months of hard work at the factory, where only the lord knows how much was spent on it.

US military procedure calls for a Class A accident to be declared if the damage is over $1M. That was a Class A accident due to failure of a critical component.

What else have you posted that takes similar liberties?

[Tynecastle]

Okay folks, I think its time to get a hold of your emotions.
Everyone in the Helicpopter industry has complained that the biggest problem we have over the years is winning over the General Puplic , I hope the GP aren't reading this thread, it will put them off helicopters for life.
Offcourse the EH 101 is having problems, is it any different from any other new helicopter?
The 76 is a great offshore helicopter these days, but it wasn't always, was it ? rememeber spindles departing, blades departing, damper lugs breaking off, under powered engines, maintenance on them in the early 80's was a nightmare, and don't tell me different, if it wasn't for someones vision in re-equipping with Arriels I don't think there would too many flying offshore nowadays.
Before someone pipes up about the S92, which I have no doubt will be a great aircraft, remember this, the 61 was in service in the early sixtes, the 76 in 1978, but the 92 did not enter service until 2004 and it was developed from a proven drivetrain, doesn't that tell you something.
We all have our favourite helicopter, but that is no reason to knock another type without reason, there again some people's views obviously depend on what country the Helicopters were manufactured in, all other data is secondary.

Slainte,
Tynecastle.

[snafu]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but Visionary's assertion in a post on 8 Nov is inaccurate. 28 (AC) Sqn are not the UK CSAR Sqn! :*

[Visionary]

SNAFU,

Are they not? Someone ought to tell them that then.

I thought JPR (Joint Personnel Recovery) was CSAR

[snafu]

CSAR is merely one element of JPR. PM me with your details (who you are) and I'll explain if I can.

[widgeon]

Can any one refresh my memory , did the original WG34 concept have 3 engines ?. I recall seeing a fuselage mock up some time in the late 70's but don't remember the number of engines .

[reynoldsno1]

Yes, it did have 3 donks

[The Sultan]

Tynecastle: You forgot the S-76's which burned to the ground due to rotor brake problems. Since two 101's were lost due to rotor brakes, Nick really should take these off the list of rants against the 101 as the Sikorsky's design team's record appears to be comparable.

Nick and your echo's: You all missed some of the reports from the tour where the RAF crew simuilated the loss of an engine during climb out, continued the climb, completed the pattern and landed with no one noticing. With Nick's recent blowing smoke that "CAT A don't matter", I assume that with those tightly wound rubber bands on the 92 if one breaks down you go --rapidly. Three engines are nice do have their benefits.

The Sultan

[[email protected]]

Sultan - you seem easily impressed - a circuit with one engine out of 2 pulled back in the climb is normal practice and people only notice if you tell them - a circuit with one engine out of 3 pulled back is hardly headline news.

[rjsquirrel]

TOO bad Sultan uses helicopters with 2 million flight hours from which to draw his illogical conclusions! How many Bells crashed in the last 20 years, Sultan? They are still safe, because the number of flight hours it takes to make those crashes is very very high, showing that the aircraft are basically safe (otherwise you wouldn't sell them, would you?) Demonstrated accident rate that is the concern, not warstories you can remember. Wanna talk about main rotor separation, or VRS?

The EH-101's safety record to date is 5 Class A accidents in 55,000 hours

EH-101 has an accident rate of 11 per 100,000 hours, which makes it the WORST helicopter in operation on the planet, and about 11 times worse than the Bell helicopters Sultan builds, and about 15 times worse than the typical US Military multi-engined helicopter. The only worse rotorcraft is the V-22!

FYI, Sultan, I heard from a Marine that a high ranking Marine flew the 92 demonstrator at MGW, pulled back an engine on takeoff, flew around for a while, then landed without any ground roll, and said to the plot, "What the hell do I need 3 engines for?"

[heedm]

rjsquirrel, 5 in 55,000 equals 9 in 100,000. Don't bother insulting others unless you keep yourself perfect.

Three engines versus two engines is an old silly argument. Meeting performance requirements is what matters, whether OEI or not. If both helicopters are still in the competition then both helicopters should meet the required performance.

As far as safety record goes there is hardly enough data to establish any trends. Unfortunate as it can become, I'd anticipate problems early on, what matters most to me is how the problems are dealt with.

Matthew.

[rjsquirrel]

heedm,

You are right, I should have figured it at 9.09/100,000 hours.

A big point - All 5 EH-101 accidents are related to failure of some part of the aircraft, not pilot or engineer error. Since three quarters of the typical military accidents are human error, we could guess that the rate where the typical helicopter breaks for a typical military helicopter is probably less than .25 per 100,000 hours.

This makes the aircraft-caused rate of the EH-101 about 36 times worse than the typical fleet helicopter. 9.09 EH-101 accidents /.25 typical = 36 times worse.

For the record, most heli programs might lose one or two aircraft due to aircraft causes during the first 150,000 hours of use (at least the several I have looked at). The loss of 5 EH-101's is eye-watering.
You can slice it anyway you'd like, no helicopter in recent memory has the awful record of the EH-101.

[Lu Zuckerman]

To: heedm

rjsquirrel, 5 in 55,000 equals 9 in 100,000. Don't bother insulting others unless you keep yourself perfect.

Actually it is 9 in 99,000 hours if you want to be correct in the use of numbers.

The point is that the EH-101 has suffered one catastrophic failure in 11,000 hours of operation.

When I worked on the program we accounted for every catastrophic failure point and tried to design them out. However the catastrophic failures were removed from the FMECA so that the official word was that the helicopter would never suffer a single point catastrophic failure. The rotor brake problems and the tail rotor problems were accounted for in the initial analyses but were later removed from the analyses.

The sad point is that the helicopter received a civil airworthiness ticket and the airworthiness authorities never even checked the FMECA and the subsequent safety hazards analyses.

The EH-101 transmission as originally designed had a shear point that would fracture if the transmission ever locked up in flight.
The necessary force to effect the fracture is the kinetic energy in the blades. When the transmission locked up the blades would sweep forward compressing the dampers and when the dampers locked up there was a solid mechanical linkage which would effect the fracture. The dampers had a normal operating load of 1,800 pounds of linear force with a safety factor of 1.5 to limit load. When the blades sweep forward the dampers would fracture resulting in damage to the elastomeric feathering bearings.

To my knowledge the EH-101 transmission and rotorhead were never tested to demonstrate the fracture capability.

On the Apache it was written into the design spec that the US Army would accept one catastrophic failure resulting in loss of the airframe and crew every 34,000 hours of operation. The Apache is a combat helicopter the EH-101 is not. If the EH-101 continues at the present rate for catastrophic failures it is totally unacceptable not only for military applications but especially for the Presidential flight.


:E :E

[widgeon]

I am certain that if Eurocopter had had a contender for the program they would have been able to cut both engines at MGW and still continue the climb on autopilot while the pilot was serving smoked salmon canapes to the passengers.

[Ian Corrigible]

Looks like the tail rotor half hub related restrictions on Canada's CH-149 Cormorant fleet have now been partially lifted. Anyone know whether this was the same problem the EH101 fleet experienced earlier in the year, or is it a different glitch ?

I/C

[fagin's goat]

..and what is going on at the moment with the UK grey-painted Merlins? Not much sign of them in the skies from all accounts. Wonder if we are looking at another prolonged period of the fleet grounded. Any rumours?

[SASless]

Nick,

I think you missed the point....it was not the length or duration of the flight(s) but rather the darn thing did not break down along the way....after all...5,000 miles without a breakdown is pretty impressive.

I have a fleet of 11 aircraft that averages about a 98% availability rate yearly...and that includes two aircraft that go logging every day....but then we don't intend to haul the Number 1 Boss Fellah.

[Cyclic Hotline]

Navy delays decision on presidential helicopter contract

By LOLITA C. BALDOR
Associated Press Writer

November 17, 2004, 6:49 PM EST

WASHINGTON -- The U.S. Navy has put off until at least next January a decision on a contract to replace the aging Marine One presidential helicopter fleet, giving both prospective contractors time to bolster their last-minute lobbying for the coveted program.

John J. Young Jr., the assistant Navy secretary for research, development and acquisition, and other Navy officials went to the White House Wednesday to give the administration an update on the decision process. The meeting was done at the request of the Navy.

The competition has been clouded by an ongoing debate over outsourcing American jobs, and "buy America" issues. A key reason for the delay is the need for more data on the suppliers _ both in and out of the country _ and how they will meet stringent security requirements, according to sources close to the Navy discussions, who did not want to be identified because of the sensitive contract negotiations.

Stratford, Conn.-based Sikorsky Aircraft has argued that its VH-92 Super Hawk is 100 percent American made. Maryland-based Lockheed Martin has said its US101, which is based on AgustaWestland's British-Italian made EH101 Merlin, will be as much as 80 percent American made.

Navy spokesman Lt. Chris Servello said the White House has not pressured the Navy to choose either Sikorsky or Lockheed, who are vying for the prestigious $1.6 billion contract award.

"This is a Navy acquisition decision," said Servello, adding that the Navy expects to announce the contract winner by the end of January.

The Defense Department has scheduled a Defense Acquisition Board meeting for Feb. 10. Navy officials said they have not made a decision yet, but believe they will be able to move forward before the February date.

Once the board meets and determines the Navy has all the necessary information to make a choice, the Navy can then announce its contractor decision.

Both companies have been waging massive public relations campaigns, hoping to influence the decision. In the last two weeks alone, both have peppered Capitol Hill and the Defense Department with letters urging support for their helicopter.

The decision was initially expected last spring, but the Navy announced in March that it needed more time and would make the decision in December.

Servello said discussions between the Navy and the two companies "are ongoing and the Navy has determined that additional time is required to make the best possible decision for the new presidential helicopter."

Representatives of both Lockheed and Sikorsky said they were comfortable with the decision and both remained confident with their chances.

"We certainly understand that (the Navy) has an enormous amount of data that they're trying to evaluate," said Sikorsky spokesman Ed Steadham. "And they want to be as thorough as they possibly can. We certainly understand why they might need a little extra time."

Lockheed Vice President Stephen D. Ramsey said the "Navy's decision to delay awarding the Marine One contract will have no impact on our chances of winning the competition."

Both bidders say they have the best designed and built aircraft. Lockheed's US101 is larger, more powerful and has three engines. Sikorsky built the current presidential fleet and its VH-92 Super Hawk is touted as one of the safest helicopters made.

The Merlin is used by the British Navy, which has been investigating the cause of a crash in March of one of its helicopters. Questions about potential problems with cracks in the tail rotor were raised, but U.S. Navy officials have discussed the matter with Lockheed and their concerns have been addressed, according to one Navy official who did not want to be identified because the contract discussions are secret.

Loren Thompson, a defense analyst with the Lexington Institute who has worked for Lockheed, said he believes that the two contractors have answered most of the Navy's technical questions, and the delay was triggered more by scheduling difficulties. He said Lockheed has an edge because of its larger size and engine capacity.

Rep. Rosa DeLauro, D-Conn., who met with Sikorsky officials and other Connecticut congressional delegation members Tuesday night, said she is hopeful that politics will not factor into the decision. And, "if the contract is awarded on the merits, it's going to be Sikorsky."

[Lu Zuckerman]

The difference between the VH-92 and the US-101 is that the VH-92 is the same aircraft that will be delivered where the US-101 will only reflect the shape of the EH-101 and it will have five blades and a four blade tail rotor.

Another way to look at is if Sikorsky proposed the VH-92 but used an S-58 as a demonstrator.

:E :E

[3top]

What is the time-frame for first deliveries?

Would Lockheed even have time to address all the problems stated here - TR-shaft, TR-cracks, crashworthiness-15/20g, high maintenance?
How does the 101-maintenance compare to the other 3-engine CH-53? That one is at about 60 hrs/flighthour isn't it?

I also wonder how a brandnew design can be compared to a 20 yeare old?

How did the price of the 101 come down to 92 levels?
About 2 years ago I remember to read in some mag, the price for the 101 system would be around 30-40 m$ depending on options.
That would have given you two 92's and some fuel money!

I am sure the final decision is pure politics (or who is polstering private pockets better! :E :E )


.......else they surely would choose the Swedish tall-cabin version of the NH90!!!

May the better one win!

:E :E

3top

[plt_aeroeng]

L Zuckerman -

Astonishing claim that the Sikorsky offering is closer to the delivery configuration than the US101 offering.

From an outsider's point of view, it would appear that it takes much more to transform an S-92 into a VH-92 than an EH101 into a US101. From published reports:

1. VH-92 will have new and more powerful engines not to be certified until 2007
2. Presumably that also implies upgrade of rotor, transmission, structure, etc. to accommodate the 10% MGW increase.
3. The shape of the VH-92, with its aft cabin pregnancy, is quite a bit different from that of the certified S-92
4. S-92 has never had a self defense suite installed: the RAF Merlins flying around the US have
5. Fly by wire is being developed for S-92: this would be a first in civil certified helicopters. Sounds like a big change to me
6. All new suppliers: the prototypes have sections built in several continents (admittedly this just makes it a wash with US101)

By comparison, EH101 Merlin has the structural strength to land on and be strapped to little ships, so presumably will not need much strengthening for US101 (this is of course speculative .. they could need some upgrades due to weight growth too.)

I don't believe that any one inside the program will be telling the whole story any time soon, so the rest of us are just speculating in more or less informed ways.

It's interesting that people with links to Sikorsky are prominent in these threads, while the Lockheed/Agusta/Westland/Bell people are notably silent. Does that mean the latter believe the acquisition folk have given a higher technical score to the US101?

As others have said, both helos would likely do the job, so result is probably influenced by politics, in spite of Navy whistling in the wind about "This is a Navy acquisition decision."

We foreigners are looking on with interest. I personally always believed that if Sikorsky could meet the technical bar, the political optics would determine the decision. I don't believe that Bush cares a whit about the political debt he owes Tony Blair.

Waiting (but not with bated breath) ...

[NickLappos]

plt_aeroeng,

Here are some answers to your points (answers in italics):

1. VH-92 will have new and more powerful engines not to be certified until 2007

The engines in the EH-101 and the S/H-92 are the same, all are models of the CT7 series. The total differences between the engine now in the S-92 (the CT7-8A) and the upgrade for the VH-92 (CT7-8C) are about 10 parts. The new -8C model has achieved 11% overspec power in its tests this year. It will be certified 3 years before needed for the VH-92.

Presumably that also implies upgrade of rotor, transmission, structure, etc. to accommodate the 10% MGW increase. Your presumption is wrong, no modifications are needed, a minor upgrade of the transmission (5% continuous, 9% for takeoff) was already qualified earlier this year.

3. The shape of the VH-92, with its aft cabin pregnancy, is quite a bit different from that of the certified S-92
It is not quite a bit different, it is actually less than 16 inches of bulge along the aft lower secton, where the ramp normally is, and has already been built and qualified earlier this year.

4. S-92 has never had a self defense suite installed: the RAF Merlins flying around the US have
True enough. Our partner for the program, Northrop-Gruman, invented the system, and Sikorsky has installed several hunderd such systems on its helicopters in the recent past. Not significant risk. BTW the model installed on the current Merlins is obsolete, and not fit for the contract

5. Fly by wire is being developed for S-92: this would be a first in civil certified helicopters. Sounds like a big change to me
For Sikorsky, it is not a big change, as we have flown several models with FBW. The FBW is not part of the initial delivery kit, and so the schedule does not depend on it.
6. All new suppliers: the prototypes have sections built in several continents (admittedly this just makes it a wash with US101)
No, it is not a wash. All the original S-92 suppliers are retained except for the sheet metal structure, which is being worked right now by Vought, who has done similar jobs for Boeing and Grumman in less time than our schedule calls for. This means all H-92 pumps, actuators, hinges, gears and widgets remain with the fully qualified supplers and purchase orders. The EH-101 has the need to fully qualify its entire parts chain, a job we know it cannot do in time. It is clear that EH-101 will use European parts for the first batch, if they win. Internal discussions between Westland and the press have indicated so, making the "US-101" label even more of a sham

By comparison, EH101 Merlin has the structural strength to land on and be strapped to little ships, so presumably will not need much strengthening for US101 (this is of course speculative .. they could need some upgrades due to weight growth too.)
the EH-101 is comparitively weak, and by design intent falls far short of required US military strength. Its basic fuselage needs considerable beefing up to be fit, the EH-101 team has reportedly already asked for a waiver. A private in the US Army has a more crashworthy ride than a Prime Minister in the EH-101. for the original discussion of this critical compromise, see the paper written by Richard Case, its chief designer:
www.s-92heliport.com/crash.jpg (http://www.s-92heliport.com/Crash.jpg.jpg)

Were it not for Blair's salesmanship, we, too, think the winner will surely be the best helicopter, and like the Canadian competition, it will be the aircraft with the best payload, range, speed, safety and economics.

Here are the two brochures for the aircraft (with today's engines) to show that the H-92 has more range, payload, speed than the much bigger, much less capable EH-101.
http://www.s-92heliport.com/H92.pdf 200K
http://www.s-92heliport.com/EH101.pdf This is about 5 megs
http://www.s-92heliport.com/EH101perfpages.pdf performance excerpt only 600K

Regarding political debts for wartime loyalty, I visited my father's Bomb Group at Bury St. Edmund's a few years back, and was reminded that there were more Yanks who died flying from Britain in WWII than Brits who have walked on Iraqi soil, my friend. I do not remember England repaying anything for the last two times the US helped defeat our mutual enemies. Nor do I remember the US grubbing for the bill. Maybe I just missed that movie, huh?

[Lu Zuckerman]

To: 3 Top

How does the 101-maintenance compare to the other 3-engine CH-53? That one is at about 60 hrs/flighthour isn't it?

According to a report issued by the United States General Accounting office the MMH/FH for the CH-53 is 39.1. This was in 1990 and with gained experience this figure could have decreased. Conversely with an aging fleet that figure may have increased however I do not believe it is 60 MMH?FH.

Let Nick be the final judge.



:E :E

[SASless]

Nick,

Go easy there....The British do not like to be reminded of things like that....they are a proud bunch and rightfully so too. They were fighting in 1939 while we were only building their weapons for them....and were still hanging on in 1941 when the Japanese convinced us to join in. The fact they were beat never entered their heads....God Bless them!

They have been our friends over the years...maybe they have acted like our rich elite from the Ivy League colleges...but friends they have been and remain so.

They are easy targets to poke fun at....but the bottom line is they have been good friends....at least by God they have troops walking the ground in Iraq as compared to some others that claim to our buddies all the while selling arms to our enemies.

Please do not cheapen their troop's service in combat along side our fine young men and women. As a Veteran yourself and also having a son in the military....you should be more sensitive to those kinds of comments.

Give them hell when they deserve it....and often they do...but focus on the real issues please....

[NickLappos]

SASless,

Don't read me wrong (as you have!) The role played by Great Britain in WWII was second to none, and not the object of my comment.

It is the idea that "political payback" for Blair that gets me right in the teeth.

[Helo Bubba]

It looks like these guys beat the EH-101 guys to it.....and did it round trip to boot.....: :{

I wonder what support they took with them in their Robinson?


Coast-to-Coast Record

Rotor & Wing columnist Johan Nurmi and John Thomas have just completed a record setting flight from Los Angeles to Savanna, Ga. round-trip in a Robinson R22BII piston-powered helicopter. The flight took four days, 12 hr. and 20 sec., and recorded 53.9 flight hr. The two men set off from Los Angeles International Airport at 6:07 a.m. on Sept. 30, flew to Savannah, then returned to LAX. The route of flight both ways took Nurmi and Thomas through California, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama and Georgia.
Nurmi said that they are now negotiating with Eurocopter "and other large helicopter manufacturers" for sponsorship of an around-the-world flight in an attempt to beat the current record. The record LAX-SAV-LAX flight "proves that we are ready to step into a turbine-engine helicopter" for an attempt at the around-the-world record, Nurmi said. He noted that the flight was a U.S. record and "might even be a world record." :ok:

[Vfrpilotpb]

Good morning Nick,


You only have the problem with President Blair trying to get the US101 accepted, VERY SADLY many of us have to share the same country with him!

PeterR-B:{

[NickLappos]

I am amazed at Blair's appeal to have the US buy the US-101 while Lockheed claims that Sikorsky has "politicized" the contest!!!

[Thomas coupling]

To put it all in perspective:

Number of civilian and military deaths in II WW:

Germans: 5.5million
Jews: 5 million
Japan: 3 million
UK: 500,000
USA: 300,000
Russia: 20 million.

In April 2003, we finally finished paying the Americans for helping us out in Europe. We owed them 4300 million sterling.

Must be worth throwing in a couple of VH101's :ok:

[1DC]

Ah well, Mr.Lappos, I wonder what the math would have shown if Iraq had been Britain's war? I fancy the percentage of America's troops helping Teflon Tony would have been sweet fa...
8000 British troops is a large percentage of our army and I wouldn't dream of starting a debate of who is the most efficient....

[Thomas coupling]

Nick: of all people wrapped up in the front line of sales and lobbying you must be much nearer than most of us.
But NOBODY, repeat NOBODY will ever convince me that military sales are anything OTHER than whispers behind closed doors and who owes who favours and what can be done elsewhere if only one side could 'assist' the other side this time round.

GB PLC has its fair share of 'exposures' and I'm damned sure the USA has too. You can bet your bottom dollar that bleary and bushless are chatting about it right now over a glass of californian red!!!

PS: The Britannica stats don't include civilians old boy.

[NickLappos]

TC,

Or maybe a nice Chianti from Silvio's private stock!

[ZH844]

I think the biggest insult to the people who died fighting any war is the contents of many of these postings..

Nick - I am very upset with your comments and I used to respect your opinions, it didn't take you much to be very unprofessional did it?

:mad:

[Flypro]

Concur. You do your cause no good Nick - and should be really embarrassed by this vitriolic ourburst. Shame on you.:*

[NickLappos]

ZH844 and Flypro,

I mean no disrespect to British or American servicemen, if you think I do, it is not my intent, nor is it in my words. It is in your interpretation, which I cannot control. I think you have stepped into a long thread at the end, and I hope you misunderstand my point.

Here is a note I sent a friend who PM'd me with his concerns:

I introduced the comparison and therefore am guilty of having offended you. My purpose is to help explain the sacrifice of both countries, not to discredit either, if I appear to do so, it is not my intention, nor in my words. I know WWII history quite well, and have never doubted the dedication and sacrifice of the Empire troops, and their key role in the victory. The purpose in showing the great mutual sacrifice of the UK and US in WWII is to show that the US never asked for what Blair and Berlusconi think is due them for Iraq - the automatic purchase of EH-101 helicopters as political payback for military support.

Please also note that I am probably more offended than you are at me by this British and Italian request for "payment for services." With one son in Afghanistan and 47 employees of Sikorsky in the desert right now, I am aghast that this British and Italian political pressure to pay for services rendered is somehow part of the Presidential decision.

A diplomatic mission from Italy is enroute to DC right now to press Bush on this very subject - "Buy my helicopter because I helped you out." Blair went public last week with his appeal based on the same distasteful logic, and by going public, makes it even harder for Bush to ignore it.

If I have offended you, I do apologize, I have never knowingly tried to reduce the glory of those who served and died to defeat our mutual enemies. Knowing that this is interpreted as an attempt to belittle their sacrifice saddens me that I have so badly missed my mark.

As a combat veteran, and the son of one, I can think and feel like one, and I still find no such dishonor in my original words. I do regret that you do. And because I do not wish to inflame any of my pprune friends, I have pulled down the offending remarks from my posts.

[1DC]

Mr Lappos, please consider my comments withdrawn....

[Tynecastle]

Nick,
You bring up the point about the Crashworthiness of the S92 compared to the 101, what is the crashworthiness of the S76 ?
don't think it is very good is it, the good old 61 has shed Blades, T/R failures , engines exploding and it still lives to fight another day, the 76 has done all of the above with dire consequences.

[NickLappos]

Tynecastle,

New capabilities create reasons to buy new gear, and the cold light of progress shines on all aircraft, including the S-76 (I had the honor of flying its first flight and structural shakedown, so it has a special place in my heart!)

It is Sikorsky's standard for several decades to design the fuselage to a primary strength of 20 g's down and forward, 10 g's upward and 10 g's lateral, which is somewhat better than the US Mil spec (Mil-1290) and a very great deal better than typical civil requirements. The S-76 (and S92) was designed to this strength requirement, too, so it is considerably stronger than most helos that we fly. This feature measures the protection provided for the passengers and crew by the structural cage they inhabit. The more the g's, the more the cage withstands without crushing. The crashworthiness is strongly influenced by this factor.

Regarding the rest of the crashworthiness equation, the S-76 baseline seats and fuel system meet the older requirements, and are surpassed by the new designs (unless one orders the options, which are available, but which consume some useful load.)

The S-76 crashworthiness is therefore equal to or better than most of the helos in operation today, but not up to the par of the latest machines, like the S-92 and presumably the AB-139 (it must meet them, I have never seen its type certificate data sheet as demonstration.)

Regarding relative safety records, I think the S-76 has the best safety record in the civil patch, in terms of accident rate and passenger safety. I love the S-61 as well, and I think they are close.

[Tynecastle]

Nick,
The 76 has a good safety record, but it when it is involved in an accident it is usually catastrophic, seen one last year that just had a hard landing, and it was a mess.
The old 61 has shed blades[or part of ], crashed on its side [T/R Buzz ] MGB failures and the crews and pax walked away from it.

With the 61N been amphibious, the hull is very strong so that is probably the reason for its great survivability.

Wonder will any of the manufacturers come up with a design for smaller helicopters based on the F1 racing cars were the cockpit is incredibly strong to protect the driver, you see a car go into the barriers at 200mph, the car is totalled but the drivers area is intact.
Cheers,
TC

[NickLappos]

Tynecastle,
The "data" you are quoting is not very meaningful, unfortunately. The fuselage strength and crashworthiness of the 61 is significantly less than the 76, and than the 92, or the most current part 29 aircraft.

I know of several very hard landings with 76's that would have split open other helos (I am the proud author of one of those). This is not to say that a 76 is superhuman, just that your means of comparison is drawn from warstories and suppositions.

The boat hull on a 61 is a nice feature, but it does not add significant strength to the fuselage. Where did you get that idea?

The concept you wonder about (the protective cage for racecars) is exactly what I described in the previous post. The "cage" of an S-76, an Apache, an S-92 and (probably) an AB-139 are about twice as strong as an S-61, Super Puma or EH-101. This is determined with data, not suppositions.

[Tynecastle]

Come on Nick, I'm not dealing in figures I am dealing in facts, look at the 76 accidents, how many people walked away from them, I cannot think of too many, there was a training accident in Baku last year where the 3 crew escaped but seconds later the aircraft was totally destroyed, the accidents with the spindles and blades on the 76, no body stood a chance, the comparison I gave on the 61 everyone walked away from it and this is not war stories, I was and still am working with the companies who were involved in that accidents and they were major accidents.
I'm scratching my head a little over your comments about the N hull though, if you are suggesting the L model is as strong as the N, I do not have the figures you have available, but you will not convince me.
You will not admit it Nick, but the build quality on the 61 was far superior to the 76, a lot of the corrosion problems we found on the 76 was down to poor procedures to start with at manufacture.
Now Nick, I'm not knocking the 76, we fly many hours per year offshore, its a very good aircraft, but it still has its faults, and whatever data you come up with on crashworthiness means nothing if it doesn't work in practice.

[NickLappos]

Tyne,
Now look at the position you have taken:

"I know it, there are lots that I recall, and so I am right!" Do you expect me to publically debate the realtive number of people hurt in helicopters as some kind of proof?

I have investigated military crashes (same fuselage as S-61) that proove you (unfortunately) incorrect.

Some of my observations on the S-76 toughness:
1) I recall one S-76 that slid off a deck an a wet day, and nestled in the railing below, clipped off all 4 main blades near the root while pulling 100% torque. The aircraft was huled home, and the transmission removed with common tools. Most helos would have had the whole transmission mount and cabin structure disintegrate from that massive torque.

2) I landed at 13.5 ft/second in one hard landing (a horrendous impact, do not try this at home!) and the aircraft suffered one bent stringer in the tail cone. It flew thousands of hours after that landing (which would have bent the skids of a Huey up to the belly and crushed the lower tub).

3) In a training accident where the instructor shut down the good engine during an OE practice, the aircraft landed very hard and peeled itself apart, tail cone, landing gear, then roll over and all blades snapped off. I was the investigator, and opened the two doors that were still unopened with one hand, using the normal door handle. All four doors ft properly in their jambs because there was so little cabin distortion.

None of this is attempting to disprove that the latest helicopters that meet the newest regulations are better, but the S-76 is no slouch, and it is actually better than the older, less strong S-61. This debate can't go on, I simply can't start to denegrate one helo to prove another, as you have. You are technically and factually wrong, however. Like most opinions, yours seems right to you, based on the facts that you have, but not when all the facts available are layed out.

Have a Merry Christmas!

[Tynecastle]

Nick,
No way am I trying to denegrate the 76, I make my living working on it, I am simply stating my views on what I feel is an area where the aircraft is weak.
You are correct that I do not have all data, not to many people have, all I can deal with is the facts as they are presented to me, the accidents that you refer probably didn't happen in the oil patch, so they didn't make the news.
As for the strength, build quality, of the 76 / 61 lets just agree to disagree.
Anyway its the festive season so lets forget about helicopters for a day or two.
Have a good one and all the best for 2005
Slainte,
PR

[NickLappos]

Tynecastle,
Agreed!! Happy New Year to you and yours.
N

[Tourist]

So, who wants to tell us all the Merlin Gossip then?............:E

[Tourist]

So, who wants to tell us all the Merlin Gossip then?............:E

[hyd3failure]

Good thread....lets get this one going....

[hyd3failure]

Good thread....lets get this one going....

[junglie-driver]

He was an old bearded wizard that hung around with smelly Pingers!!!

[junglie-driver]

He was an old bearded wizard that hung around with smelly Pingers!!!

[Tourist]

Jungly-Driver.

If I could be @rsed, I would think up sonething witty as a reply.

instead I will fall back upon emergency banter.

F**k off big nose!

[Tourist]

Jungly-Driver.

If I could be @rsed, I would think up sonething witty as a reply.

instead I will fall back upon emergency banter.

F**k off big nose!

[junglie-driver]

Typical Pinger S.O.P, can't do anything without an observer! Give him/her a call later and get back when you're allowed to. ;)


P.S My nose only looks big from the left side!

[junglie-driver]

Typical Pinger S.O.P, can't do anything without an observer! Give him/her a call later and get back when you're allowed to. ;)


P.S My nose only looks big from the left side!

[Tourist]

Unlike your @rse..........

http://pages.prodigy.net/indianahawkeye/newpage20/12.gif

[Tourist]

Unlike your @rse..........

http://pages.prodigy.net/indianahawkeye/newpage20/12.gif

[Flypro]

Children children.....let us get back to the thread.
How about a reason why the RN's big grey hope could not deploy for tsunami relief ops....or is it that its just stuff all use in a stuation like this?:zzz:

[Flypro]

Children children.....let us get back to the thread.
How about a reason why the RN's big grey hope could not deploy for tsunami relief ops....or is it that its just stuff all use in a stuation like this?:zzz:

[jayteeto]

Of course it is of use in this type of situation! I have seen the TV advert recruiting RN medics and it managed then ;)

[jayteeto]

Of course it is of use in this type of situation! I have seen the TV advert recruiting RN medics and it managed then ;)

[crossbow]

so, its clear that there are not many supporters of Merlin on this thread. So does anyone think it would be a good idea to buy another 30 of them?

[crossbow]

so, its clear that there are not many supporters of Merlin on this thread. So does anyone think it would be a good idea to buy another 30 of them?

[Stitchbitch]

How about Yes? And can you paint them yellow instead of green this time??? :E
As this is a rumour network have the green ones been grounded again 'cause I heard that from a cleaner at kia :\

[Stitchbitch]

How about Yes? And can you paint them yellow instead of green this time??? :E
As this is a rumour network have the green ones been grounded again 'cause I heard that from a cleaner at kia :\

[crossbow]

Yellow? are you bonkers? Are you suggesting that we use Merlin for SAR?

Apart from the size of them, surely an unstable servicability record would be sufficient evidence NOT to do that

[crossbow]

Yellow? are you bonkers? Are you suggesting that we use Merlin for SAR?

Apart from the size of them, surely an unstable servicability record would be sufficient evidence NOT to do that

[Tourist]

I was actually hoping for some rather more topical, current gossip, but nobody seems to want to spill the beans

[Tourist]

I was actually hoping for some rather more topical, current gossip, but nobody seems to want to spill the beans

[Neil Porter]

Green ones kicking around Abingdon alot recently training so must be ok...for now.

[Neil Porter]

Green ones kicking around Abingdon alot recently training so must be ok...for now.

[M609]

A green one passed by my window 30 minutes ago, very much airborne! :)

[M609]

A green one passed by my window 30 minutes ago, very much airborne! :)

[crossbow]

and I spotted a yellow one Yesterday afternoon.

[crossbow]

and I spotted a yellow one Yesterday afternoon.

[Flypro]

......and there's shed loads of 'em - mostly in sheds! - in Cornwall!!:hmm:

[Flypro]

......and there's shed loads of 'em - mostly in sheds! - in Cornwall!!:hmm:

[ZH844]

Everything is ok in Merlin land as far as we are concerned!

Hear the same old bulls**t from those who have nothing to do with them - seems most have posted on this thread!

:ok:

[ZH844]

Everything is ok in Merlin land as far as we are concerned!

Hear the same old bulls**t from those who have nothing to do with them - seems most have posted on this thread!

:ok:

[WE Branch Fanatic]

But surely......

Merlin (HM1) is flying ops, and deploying at sea - aboard carriers, RFAs, and since 829 NAS has been reformed, Type 23 Frigates.

[WE Branch Fanatic]

But surely......

Merlin (HM1) is flying ops, and deploying at sea - aboard carriers, RFAs, and since 829 NAS has been reformed, Type 23 Frigates.

[WE Branch Fanatic]

From here. (http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/static/pages/148.html)

In order to succeed in either the MarStrike or LitM role, the CVS will need to operate effectively within the littoral environment (defined as coastal sea areas and that portion of the land, which is susceptible to influence or support from the sea). To achieve this, sea lines of communication between support vessels and the battle area/theatre of operation need to be protected at all times. Integrated with other task group units, aircraft, such as the Merlin HM Mk1 and Sea King ASaC Mk7, will be used to achieve the sea control (or freedom of action to use the sea for our own purpose) necessary to assure littoral access.

Errr...........think they do sometimes.

[WE Branch Fanatic]

From here. (http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/static/pages/148.html)

In order to succeed in either the MarStrike or LitM role, the CVS will need to operate effectively within the littoral environment (defined as coastal sea areas and that portion of the land, which is susceptible to influence or support from the sea). To achieve this, sea lines of communication between support vessels and the battle area/theatre of operation need to be protected at all times. Integrated with other task group units, aircraft, such as the Merlin HM Mk1 and Sea King ASaC Mk7, will be used to achieve the sea control (or freedom of action to use the sea for our own purpose) necessary to assure littoral access.

Errr...........think they do sometimes.

[sweep complete]

From what I hear all is not rosy in Merlin land, but not as bad as some will try to make out on here. This is a rumour network so someone must have some gen buzzes - lets not have (yet) another slag off Merlin thread!!

p.s. I thought the reason they weren't sent to help in Tsunami relief was the Indonesian government turning down our help.

[sweep complete]

From what I hear all is not rosy in Merlin land, but not as bad as some will try to make out on here. This is a rumour network so someone must have some gen buzzes - lets not have (yet) another slag off Merlin thread!!

p.s. I thought the reason they weren't sent to help in Tsunami relief was the Indonesian government turning down our help.

[smithoag]

green'uns were grounded temporarily just after New Year,but back in the air now

[smithoag]

green'uns were grounded temporarily just after New Year,but back in the air now

[Stitchbitch]

Everything is ok in Merlin land as far as we are concerned!

Glad to hear it :) Does that mean the Merlin will be heading east soon? :rolleyes:

[Stitchbitch]

Everything is ok in Merlin land as far as we are concerned!

Glad to hear it :) Does that mean the Merlin will be heading east soon? :rolleyes:

[Bismark]

The Doods down in Kernow tell me they have beasts aboard a T23 and some (4?) in a stores thingy as part of the group deployment eastwards - led by a CVS?

[Bismark]

The Doods down in Kernow tell me they have beasts aboard a T23 and some (4?) in a stores thingy as part of the group deployment eastwards - led by a CVS?

[Tourist]

Ok, so there is no truth in the buzz I heard that the IPT has announced that they can only support a maximum of 8 Merlin, ie 4 front line and 4 for training, and that the rest would be stored till further notice with merlin personel being scattered around the rest of the navy?:hmm:

[Tourist]

Ok, so there is no truth in the buzz I heard that the IPT has announced that they can only support a maximum of 8 Merlin, ie 4 front line and 4 for training, and that the rest would be stored till further notice with merlin personel being scattered around the rest of the navy?:hmm:

[crossbow]

what about the rumour that the newly formed 829 Sqn is going to be amalgamated with 820 Sqn as a single Merlin Sqn.?

[crossbow]

what about the rumour that the newly formed 829 Sqn is going to be amalgamated with 820 Sqn as a single Merlin Sqn.?

[Duncan Bucket]

Tourist

I think you've answered your original question

"So, who wants to tell us all the Merlin Gossip then?............"

It looks like you do!

Sweep complete - how refreshing to hear someone else is fed up of the b@ll@x that usually pervades this sort of thread. I thought the military forum was going to be renamed "we all hate merlins"

[Duncan Bucket]

Tourist

I think you've answered your original question

"So, who wants to tell us all the Merlin Gossip then?............"

It looks like you do!

Sweep complete - how refreshing to hear someone else is fed up of the b@ll@x that usually pervades this sort of thread. I thought the military forum was going to be renamed "we all hate merlins"

[sweep complete]

Glad to hear it Does that mean the Merlin will be heading east soon?

stitchbitch - they (820 Sqn) left last weekend and are curently heading east...... that answer your question????

:p

[sweep complete]

Glad to hear it Does that mean the Merlin will be heading east soon?

stitchbitch - they (820 Sqn) left last weekend and are curently heading east...... that answer your question????

:p

[Stitchbitch]

stitchbitch - they (820 Sqn) left last weekend and are curently heading east...... that answer your question????

Sorry SC, I meant the 'green ones' :ok:

[Stitchbitch]

stitchbitch - they (820 Sqn) left last weekend and are curently heading east...... that answer your question????

Sorry SC, I meant the 'green ones' :ok:

[Navaleye]

The RN intends to re-role the CVS into mini strike carriers operating increased numbers of GR7/9s. Its more than likely that the Merlins will be hived off to RFAs on a permanent basis. Its slighlty ironic that a platform originally intended to carry helos ousted from the last generation of attack carriers is undergoing the same experience itself.

[Navaleye]

The RN intends to re-role the CVS into mini strike carriers operating increased numbers of GR7/9s. Its more than likely that the Merlins will be hived off to RFAs on a permanent basis. Its slighlty ironic that a platform originally intended to carry helos ousted from the last generation of attack carriers is undergoing the same experience itself.

[hyd3failure]

Lets face it. At the end of the day this aircraft has been the biggest waste of money I have ever seen. The Merlin is a disgrace and no amount of defending it will convince me of its worth. It cost an absolute fortune and since delivery it has sat in the hangar and rotted away unservicable. I'd hate to know how many hours we have flown on the beast since delivery but I bet its a real shocker. The procurement peope should hang their heads in shame at this white elephant. We should find out who is to blame for this blatant and absolutely disgusting waste of money and name and shame them.
I heard a rumour yesterday that to return the aircraft to full flying servicability and at the same build standard will cost the tax payer in IRO £840 Million. And thats on top of the £45 million EACH they cost. A disgrace, an absolute disgrace.

[hyd3failure]

Lets face it. At the end of the day this aircraft has been the biggest waste of money I have ever seen. The Merlin is a disgrace and no amount of defending it will convince me of its worth. It cost an absolute fortune and since delivery it has sat in the hangar and rotted away unservicable. I'd hate to know how many hours we have flown on the beast since delivery but I bet its a real shocker. The procurement peope should hang their heads in shame at this white elephant. We should find out who is to blame for this blatant and absolutely disgusting waste of money and name and shame them.
I heard a rumour yesterday that to return the aircraft to full flying servicability and at the same build standard will cost the tax payer in IRO £840 Million. And thats on top of the £45 million EACH they cost. A disgrace, an absolute disgrace.

[ZH844]

hyd3failure,

" It cost an absolute fortune and since delivery it has sat in the hangar and rotted away unservicable."

If it has had the bad entry into service and 'rotted away unservicable' how come I fly them on a regular basis....?

Me thinks you talk from your a**e!!

:p

[ZH844]

hyd3failure,

" It cost an absolute fortune and since delivery it has sat in the hangar and rotted away unservicable."

If it has had the bad entry into service and 'rotted away unservicable' how come I fly them on a regular basis....?

Me thinks you talk from your a**e!!

:p

[Tourist]

ZH844
Please tell me that westlands are paying you to spout this cr@p
When you say that you fly them on a regular basis, do you mean once a month? I suppose thats regular..........
You just have to talk to anyone at Culdrose to know that things are coming to breaking point.:rolleyes:

[Tourist]

ZH844
Please tell me that westlands are paying you to spout this cr@p
When you say that you fly them on a regular basis, do you mean once a month? I suppose thats regular..........
You just have to talk to anyone at Culdrose to know that things are coming to breaking point.:rolleyes:

[hyd3failure]

Go on then ZH844....lay yr cards out. How long have you been flying Merlin and how many hours do you have? How many hours a month do you get?

[hyd3failure]

Go on then ZH844....lay yr cards out. How long have you been flying Merlin and how many hours do you have? How many hours a month do you get?

[Si Clik]

I am of course only coming on this thread by invitation.

Most in the RN know who I am and if hyd3failure had an ounce of true Merlin knowledge he would realise that his posts are most definitely ignorant.

I have 500 hours on Merlin many of which in testing it to the limit around the world. It is by far and away the BEST helicopter we have in Service at present taken as a package.

I have tested both the Sea King and Merlin to the deck and the Merlin is far superior. Whilst some may criticise particular area of the flight envelope or clearance much of this has been brought on by the modern safety first culture that we now live in. Legacy aircraft have many get out clauses - new one's do not. Hence the Chinnook Mk3 fiasco.

Before you slag off this aircraft the Canadian Armed Forces are hugely up beat about it in the SAR role and they have racked up 1,000s of flying hours in a short space of time.

The main problem in the RN has been an underestimation of the support required of such a modern all singing and all dancing aircraft. The £840m you mention is not to bring current aircraft up to speed it is in fact a full upgrade program(CSP) to the avionics, systems and flight controls (which will make this a fly by light aircraft).

Your short sighted (probably Lynx views) are typical of the misleading scorn poured on this aircraft. Whilst I don't think Merlin(US101) will win the US Presidential race, it has been such a SERIOUS contender to rattle Sikorsky and make them play the Foreign card.

I personally have nothing against the Lynx and note with satisfaction that Merlin chaps do not sit on this network slagging off that force. As is usual when people feel threatened (or jealous) they like to slag of the other guy (see Sikorsky above).

Lets face the facts.

We need a mix of modern and up to date aircraft. With more money we get all we want. That is never going to happen and compromises have to be made. If you have Carriers you need big maritme aircraft to support and protect it- Merlin does this job.

All talk of Merlins and CVS are spurious. Sea King ASW were kicked off way before Merlin arrived and as someone keenly pointed ut earlier its the stores and support setup with GR7 that does it not the other way around.

As with many threads on here we should avoid the shouting and slagging especially intra-service.

The Grey fleet is small and on the whole effective. Personally I will be glad to go back.

Oh and by the way - lets keep recruiting together.

[Si Clik]

I am of course only coming on this thread by invitation.

Most in the RN know who I am and if hyd3failure had an ounce of true Merlin knowledge he would realise that his posts are most definitely ignorant.

I have 500 hours on Merlin many of which in testing it to the limit around the world. It is by far and away the BEST helicopter we have in Service at present taken as a package.

I have tested both the Sea King and Merlin to the deck and the Merlin is far superior. Whilst some may criticise particular area of the flight envelope or clearance much of this has been brought on by the modern safety first culture that we now live in. Legacy aircraft have many get out clauses - new one's do not. Hence the Chinnook Mk3 fiasco.

Before you slag off this aircraft the Canadian Armed Forces are hugely up beat about it in the SAR role and they have racked up 1,000s of flying hours in a short space of time.

The main problem in the RN has been an underestimation of the support required of such a modern all singing and all dancing aircraft. The £840m you mention is not to bring current aircraft up to speed it is in fact a full upgrade program(CSP) to the avionics, systems and flight controls (which will make this a fly by light aircraft).

Your short sighted (probably Lynx views) are typical of the misleading scorn poured on this aircraft. Whilst I don't think Merlin(US101) will win the US Presidential race, it has been such a SERIOUS contender to rattle Sikorsky and make them play the Foreign card.

I personally have nothing against the Lynx and note with satisfaction that Merlin chaps do not sit on this network slagging off that force. As is usual when people feel threatened (or jealous) they like to slag of the other guy (see Sikorsky above).

Lets face the facts.

We need a mix of modern and up to date aircraft. With more money we get all we want. That is never going to happen and compromises have to be made. If you have Carriers you need big maritme aircraft to support and protect it- Merlin does this job.

All talk of Merlins and CVS are spurious. Sea King ASW were kicked off way before Merlin arrived and as someone keenly pointed ut earlier its the stores and support setup with GR7 that does it not the other way around.

As with many threads on here we should avoid the shouting and slagging especially intra-service.

The Grey fleet is small and on the whole effective. Personally I will be glad to go back.

Oh and by the way - lets keep recruiting together.

[Navaleye]

Why does a brand new aircraft need an avionics upgrade?

[Navaleye]

Why does a brand new aircraft need an avionics upgrade?

[sweep complete]

Si Clik... WELL SAID SIR

I am almost loathe to read any Merlin threads on pprune these days as you can guarantee that no matter what the original thread was, it will be hijacked by those wishing to slag off the aircraft with their ignorant, mis-informed drivel. We all know it has problems, but some of the c**p that gets posted on here makes me wonder about the people who write it.

I can only agree that feeling threatened and jealousy play a big part in this - and unfortunately these feeling are obviously on the agenda with some the Navy's seniors who really should know better

[sweep complete]

Si Clik... WELL SAID SIR

I am almost loathe to read any Merlin threads on pprune these days as you can guarantee that no matter what the original thread was, it will be hijacked by those wishing to slag off the aircraft with their ignorant, mis-informed drivel. We all know it has problems, but some of the c**p that gets posted on here makes me wonder about the people who write it.

I can only agree that feeling threatened and jealousy play a big part in this - and unfortunately these feeling are obviously on the agenda with some the Navy's seniors who really should know better

[hyd3failure]

I have no doubt what so ever that Merlin is a first class state of the art aircraft - When it is servicable !!! When is it going to be serviceable BTW?

I have just one dit to mention. During the visit of a Very senior FAA Officer to a ship he asked ...

"how is the Merlin/Lynx co-op going?"

Reply....

"Its going great Sir, There U/S, we fly ashore to get spares for them, bring the stores back, there still U/S. Thats the Co-Op" !

Enuff said.

I'm sorry but if I had paid that amount of money for an aircraft I'd want the bloomin thing servicable!
If you have Carriers you need big maritme aircraft to support and protect it- Merlin does this job.

Yeah, Right. So which weapon does it use to take out the asymetric threat?

[hyd3failure]

I have no doubt what so ever that Merlin is a first class state of the art aircraft - When it is servicable !!! When is it going to be serviceable BTW?

I have just one dit to mention. During the visit of a Very senior FAA Officer to a ship he asked ...

"how is the Merlin/Lynx co-op going?"

Reply....

"Its going great Sir, There U/S, we fly ashore to get spares for them, bring the stores back, there still U/S. Thats the Co-Op" !

Enuff said.

I'm sorry but if I had paid that amount of money for an aircraft I'd want the bloomin thing servicable!
If you have Carriers you need big maritme aircraft to support and protect it- Merlin does this job.

Yeah, Right. So which weapon does it use to take out the asymetric threat?

[pr00ne]

I think Navaleye has a point!

(there Navaleye, I said it)

Also, why is it that, out of a buy of 44, the 2 CVS Sqn's have a complement of 4 each and will do apparantely until well into the second half of this decade?
6 operational on 829 for use on T23's..........
14 front line operational frames? What with tiny little SHAR flight sized squadrons that they couldn't man, what is happening to the FAA?

[pr00ne]

I think Navaleye has a point!

(there Navaleye, I said it)

Also, why is it that, out of a buy of 44, the 2 CVS Sqn's have a complement of 4 each and will do apparantely until well into the second half of this decade?
6 operational on 829 for use on T23's..........
14 front line operational frames? What with tiny little SHAR flight sized squadrons that they couldn't man, what is happening to the FAA?

[hyd3failure]

Thats a good point. Apart from the fact that there are not 6 T23 merlin flights....BUT where are the missing aircraft? Seems we may have lost about 25 Merlin.....Hmmmm

[hyd3failure]

Thats a good point. Apart from the fact that there are not 6 T23 merlin flights....BUT where are the missing aircraft? Seems we may have lost about 25 Merlin.....Hmmmm

[FORMER PIONEER]

HYD3

"Yeah, Right. So which weapon does it use to take out the asymetric threat?"

This coming from an aircraft that still compiles the surface plot on their lap using coloured pens? Does your Nav system still run on Dopple's too?:confused:

[FORMER PIONEER]

HYD3

"Yeah, Right. So which weapon does it use to take out the asymetric threat?"

This coming from an aircraft that still compiles the surface plot on their lap using coloured pens? Does your Nav system still run on Dopple's too?:confused:

[hyd3failure]

Apart from the fact that you are wrong....the pencils are no longer required... It seems that youre entire argument is centred around..."well at least its better than yours"

I agree that the Merlin is a better aircraft than the Lynx. There is little doubt in that. BUT my argument is that if I were to spend the GDP of a small European contry on a helicopter, I'd want it to work when I asked it to.

The merlin has been a complete joke for a long time and its about time it was sorted out.

The people of the United Kingdom paid for 44 Merlin and currently there are 21 in Service. We have been hoodwinked, ripped off and robbed. We want our money back!

[hyd3failure]

Apart from the fact that you are wrong....the pencils are no longer required... It seems that youre entire argument is centred around..."well at least its better than yours"

I agree that the Merlin is a better aircraft than the Lynx. There is little doubt in that. BUT my argument is that if I were to spend the GDP of a small European contry on a helicopter, I'd want it to work when I asked it to.

The merlin has been a complete joke for a long time and its about time it was sorted out.

The people of the United Kingdom paid for 44 Merlin and currently there are 21 in Service. We have been hoodwinked, ripped off and robbed. We want our money back!

[fagin's goat]

This is just a question of money. Sure Merlin HM1 is a fantastic machine BUT...... at what cost. With UK defence living off a fix or possibly diminishing budget it is simply not OK to accept an open cheque book scenario for something like Merlin. It is claimed that Merlin CPS may cost up to 30% of the total pot available for UK military tri-service helicopter support/upgrade. How do you expect Army or RAF helicopter types to look at that?

So, can we have a little more reality from the Merlin drivers on this forum? Yes, a wonderful beast and slowly clawling out of the unserviceability pit BUT let's face up to the true cost in £ sterling against what we have been delivered by industry/DLO.

[fagin's goat]

This is just a question of money. Sure Merlin HM1 is a fantastic machine BUT...... at what cost. With UK defence living off a fix or possibly diminishing budget it is simply not OK to accept an open cheque book scenario for something like Merlin. It is claimed that Merlin CPS may cost up to 30% of the total pot available for UK military tri-service helicopter support/upgrade. How do you expect Army or RAF helicopter types to look at that?

So, can we have a little more reality from the Merlin drivers on this forum? Yes, a wonderful beast and slowly clawling out of the unserviceability pit BUT let's face up to the true cost in £ sterling against what we have been delivered by industry/DLO.

[Navaleye]

fagin's goat is correct. In terms of value for money the Merlin cannot be considered a wise buy, but the money has been spent now and we won't get it back. After the tragic loss of two 0f 849's SK7s, would it not have been wiser to fit out two Merlin airframes with Searchwater 2000 and low and behold you have MASC several years early and under budget :O Its going to happen anyway. IIRC the Italians already have an AEW Merlin

[Navaleye]

fagin's goat is correct. In terms of value for money the Merlin cannot be considered a wise buy, but the money has been spent now and we won't get it back. After the tragic loss of two 0f 849's SK7s, would it not have been wiser to fit out two Merlin airframes with Searchwater 2000 and low and behold you have MASC several years early and under budget :O Its going to happen anyway. IIRC the Italians already have an AEW Merlin

[welshwizard]

Interesting point by Navaleye. Was not the original concept of the Merlin to provide a common platform across which various roles could be supported. The key word is 'commonality', particularly of stores. It is the logistics support that has failed, not the aircraft.

[welshwizard]

Interesting point by Navaleye. Was not the original concept of the Merlin to provide a common platform across which various roles could be supported. The key word is 'commonality', particularly of stores. It is the logistics support that has failed, not the aircraft.

[hyd3failure]

so, what are the rumours with Merlin and its Logistical support.

[hyd3failure]

so, what are the rumours with Merlin and its Logistical support.

[ZH844]

The problem we are facing is that the whole thing is somebody's empire and everyone has different objectives.

MASC could quite easily be achieved if managed correctly but Lockheed would need to be out of the plan as nut and sledgehammer spring to mind - just consider MSCP!

'SMART' does work but it can go very wrong very easily!

The Merlin platfrom is underdeveloped in many areas and there are engineers just waiting to give the RN the aircraft they want and need!

[ZH844]

The problem we are facing is that the whole thing is somebody's empire and everyone has different objectives.

MASC could quite easily be achieved if managed correctly but Lockheed would need to be out of the plan as nut and sledgehammer spring to mind - just consider MSCP!

'SMART' does work but it can go very wrong very easily!

The Merlin platfrom is underdeveloped in many areas and there are engineers just waiting to give the RN the aircraft they want and need!

[Bag Man]

Trying to look at this issue without being too emotive we should be asking how much Value For Money we get from the Merlin.

To my SKASaC eye the Merlin programme has cost the tax payer £4bn (cradle to grave) the last I heard. Some would say this is about £100m each airframe, others would say this is about £500m per serviceable airframe (I too have heared that the spares can only support 8 a/c). But who cares how much each flying Merlin costs if it can defend the Crown against the modern threat - like nuclear subs !!!!

Now the SKASaC's new capabilities are another story entirely ... and we get no funding whatsoever - which is why our radio fit is from the cold-war. To make us even more useful to the Marines and the Army (i.e. allow us to communicate with them) would cost about £2m - for the entire SKASaC fleet.

[Bag Man]

Trying to look at this issue without being too emotive we should be asking how much Value For Money we get from the Merlin.

To my SKASaC eye the Merlin programme has cost the tax payer £4bn (cradle to grave) the last I heard. Some would say this is about £100m each airframe, others would say this is about £500m per serviceable airframe (I too have heared that the spares can only support 8 a/c). But who cares how much each flying Merlin costs if it can defend the Crown against the modern threat - like nuclear subs !!!!

Now the SKASaC's new capabilities are another story entirely ... and we get no funding whatsoever - which is why our radio fit is from the cold-war. To make us even more useful to the Marines and the Army (i.e. allow us to communicate with them) would cost about £2m - for the entire SKASaC fleet.

[FORMER PIONEER]

BEEP! BEEP!

The "Kick the new aircraft while it is down" Bandwagon is just about to leave...........

...........All Aboard!!!!!!




Hey, waitaminute! I've got a really great, radical idea. Now it's a bit out of the box (which is not on fire and you don't need a bear suit..) but stick with me..........

Why don't we just let the aircraft mature, the initial support problems be sorted out like most brand new entry into service aircraft, and give it our support - or at least defer judgement and give it a chance? (Especially all those rumour mongers who are actually speaking from a point of ignorance)

[FORMER PIONEER]

BEEP! BEEP!

The "Kick the new aircraft while it is down" Bandwagon is just about to leave...........

...........All Aboard!!!!!!




Hey, waitaminute! I've got a really great, radical idea. Now it's a bit out of the box (which is not on fire and you don't need a bear suit..) but stick with me..........

Why don't we just let the aircraft mature, the initial support problems be sorted out like most brand new entry into service aircraft, and give it our support - or at least defer judgement and give it a chance? (Especially all those rumour mongers who are actually speaking from a point of ignorance)

[airborne_artist]

Why don't we just let the aircraft mature,

It's fighting machine, not a Grand Cru Bordeaux, and it's already very, very late.

It's meant to do what it says on the tin, not take 10 years to develop a full, round flavour with hints of nettles and blackberry!

[airborne_artist]

Why don't we just let the aircraft mature,

It's fighting machine, not a Grand Cru Bordeaux, and it's already very, very late.

It's meant to do what it says on the tin, not take 10 years to develop a full, round flavour with hints of nettles and blackberry!

[glum]

Trouble is, it's not a mass produced comsumer item with a huge lawsuit waiting if it goes wrong.

Like it or not, it's our lot to develope anything new and shiney until it does what we need it to - long gone are the days when the military did the R&D and advanced technology, which then filtered down to civvy street.

It's all civvies doing the inventing these days, as there's only enough of us to man the front line. Mostly that works, but they have to make a profit, whereas military developers of old didn't. So if something crops up during their R&D, and it costs more, they have to pass that on or go under I guess.

The real issue is that we seem to cock up the contracts and penalty clauses so often, and change our minds with the winds - which can't help.

[glum]

Trouble is, it's not a mass produced comsumer item with a huge lawsuit waiting if it goes wrong.

Like it or not, it's our lot to develope anything new and shiney until it does what we need it to - long gone are the days when the military did the R&D and advanced technology, which then filtered down to civvy street.

It's all civvies doing the inventing these days, as there's only enough of us to man the front line. Mostly that works, but they have to make a profit, whereas military developers of old didn't. So if something crops up during their R&D, and it costs more, they have to pass that on or go under I guess.

The real issue is that we seem to cock up the contracts and penalty clauses so often, and change our minds with the winds - which can't help.

[Bag Man]

So when this fighting machine (Merlin!) has matured what will it do for us?

My VFM questions remain extant.

[Bag Man]

So when this fighting machine (Merlin!) has matured what will it do for us?

My VFM questions remain extant.

[welshwizard]

Replace ASaC !!!

[welshwizard]

Replace ASaC !!!

[FORMER PIONEER]

Unfortunately WW, I don't agree................

................We're not a bunch of Freak, Hand Job, Window Lickers :ok:

[FORMER PIONEER]

Unfortunately WW, I don't agree................

................We're not a bunch of Freak, Hand Job, Window Lickers :ok:

[VoicesFromTheCreche]

.....Oh yes you are......

:8 :8 :8

[VoicesFromTheCreche]

.....Oh yes you are......

:8 :8 :8

[Toxteth O'Grady]

Those who dismiss the problems of Merlin as the teething problems of a new aircraft are deluding themselves. It's been in Squadron service for over 6 years now, the pre-production aircraft were flying trials 15 years ago and the aircraft uses technology that was designed 20 years ago. :\

[Toxteth O'Grady]

Those who dismiss the problems of Merlin as the teething problems of a new aircraft are deluding themselves. It's been in Squadron service for over 6 years now, the pre-production aircraft were flying trials 15 years ago and the aircraft uses technology that was designed 20 years ago. :\

[crossbow]

I thought that there was nothing wrong with the aircraft and that all the problemns were due to logisitcs and spares.... Are we now saying that the aircraft has something wrong with it.? Whilst Im here. Any truth in the rumour from MOD that the logistic support can only maintain stores support for 6 aircraft and that the rest of them are going to be mothballed? If thats the case and if my maths is correct, that would mean somewhere in the region of £171,000,00.00 sat in the hangar....Hmmmm

Now try explaining that to the little old lady waiting 18 months for her hip replacement !

[crossbow]

I thought that there was nothing wrong with the aircraft and that all the problemns were due to logisitcs and spares.... Are we now saying that the aircraft has something wrong with it.? Whilst Im here. Any truth in the rumour from MOD that the logistic support can only maintain stores support for 6 aircraft and that the rest of them are going to be mothballed? If thats the case and if my maths is correct, that would mean somewhere in the region of £171,000,00.00 sat in the hangar....Hmmmm

Now try explaining that to the little old lady waiting 18 months for her hip replacement !

[Duncan Bucket]

It appears that our White elephant is good enough for dubya though....:ok:

[Duncan Bucket]

It appears that our White elephant is good enough for dubya though....:ok:

[Fortyodd]

White elephants soon to be available in Presidential Green........................apparently

[Fortyodd]

White elephants soon to be available in Presidential Green........................apparently

[Bag Man]

Well said junglyAEO

You ask any Bagger and he will not be able to tell you which aircraft the MASC should be based on - but he will tell you which it shouldn't be based on.

The undeniable facts are this: in the main, the bag is short of three things - height, speed and endurance. In the main, any helicopter replacement for the SK7 would not significantly alleviate these shortcommings.

We could even surmise that if the bag is replaced by Merlin it is absolute proof that we do not procure on the grounds of capability, we provide jobs for the defence industry (and that brings us back to Merlin again - sorry!). In the past this was fine because shortcommings were never brought to the forefront by people dying at the front line due to inadequate equipment!!!

[Bag Man]

Well said junglyAEO

You ask any Bagger and he will not be able to tell you which aircraft the MASC should be based on - but he will tell you which it shouldn't be based on.

The undeniable facts are this: in the main, the bag is short of three things - height, speed and endurance. In the main, any helicopter replacement for the SK7 would not significantly alleviate these shortcommings.

We could even surmise that if the bag is replaced by Merlin it is absolute proof that we do not procure on the grounds of capability, we provide jobs for the defence industry (and that brings us back to Merlin again - sorry!). In the past this was fine because shortcommings were never brought to the forefront by people dying at the front line due to inadequate equipment!!!

[Front Seater]

Well,

I was poised all ready to join in the Merlin slagging thread. After just finishing an Exercise in East Anglia with 6 AH, Lynx and CH 47 with rumours around that the Merlins were not quite up to the job and have already pulled out of this years NITEX. The ammunition was there.

However, Si Clicks post reminded me that the Merlin appears to be suffering from the same lack of support as the AH does. People (IPTs/DPA etc) want all the bells and whistles of new technology but dont want to support the aircraft with spares, software and infrastructure. Just enough, just in time philosophy does not work in a financially strapped environment.

So, Si - well done. Gossip is great and so is rumour, but sniping from the sidelines is just negative and doesn't do anyone any favours. If you fly the aircraft and you think that it is the best capabability there is and the issues of serviceability are for those well away from the cockpit/airframe...then good on you. Good to see some moral backbone.

In the AH world we too have endured some really ill informed comment from arm chairs afar. Speak to the crews, identify where the issues are and focus energy on the heart of the problem (dont just put yourselves in a flat spin out to see whingeing and whining like an astazou).

[Front Seater]

Well,

I was poised all ready to join in the Merlin slagging thread. After just finishing an Exercise in East Anglia with 6 AH, Lynx and CH 47 with rumours around that the Merlins were not quite up to the job and have already pulled out of this years NITEX. The ammunition was there.

However, Si Clicks post reminded me that the Merlin appears to be suffering from the same lack of support as the AH does. People (IPTs/DPA etc) want all the bells and whistles of new technology but dont want to support the aircraft with spares, software and infrastructure. Just enough, just in time philosophy does not work in a financially strapped environment.

So, Si - well done. Gossip is great and so is rumour, but sniping from the sidelines is just negative and doesn't do anyone any favours. If you fly the aircraft and you think that it is the best capabability there is and the issues of serviceability are for those well away from the cockpit/airframe...then good on you. Good to see some moral backbone.

In the AH world we too have endured some really ill informed comment from arm chairs afar. Speak to the crews, identify where the issues are and focus energy on the heart of the problem (dont just put yourselves in a flat spin out to see whingeing and whining like an astazou).

[Bag Man]

What exactly do we mean when we say "it's a great aircraft"?

[Bag Man]

What exactly do we mean when we say "it's a great aircraft"?

[Toxteth O'Grady]

Well there's only 5 words in your question, so which do you not understand? :}

:{

TOG

[Toxteth O'Grady]

Well there's only 5 words in your question, so which do you not understand? :}

:{

TOG

[ranger703]

Just breaking now:

Lockheed Team Wins Presidential Chopper

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - In a surprise move, the U.S. Navy has chosen a
transatlantic team led by Lockheed Martin Corp. to build a new U.S.
presidential helicopter fleet in a deal valued at well over $1 billion,
several congressional sources said on Friday.

The decision was a stunning setback for Connecticut-based United
Technologies Corp.'s Sikorsky Aircraft unit -- which for nearly 50
years has
built and maintained the green and white "Marine One" helicopters that
fly
the president.

Sen. Charles Schumer, a New York Democrat, announced the decision in a
press
release, saying Lockheed's victory would bring hundreds of new jobs to
its
Owego, New York plant.

Lockheed, the Pentagon's No. 1 supplier, is pushing a spin-off of a
three-engined EH101 helicopter made by AgustaWestland Inc., an
Anglo-Italian
unit of Italy's Finmeccanica SpA . Fort Worth, Texas-based Textron
Inc.'s
Bell Helicopter is the other big partner.

The contract could also give Lockheed a boost when the Air Force next
year
orders 194 search and rescue helicopters that could be worth more than
$6
billion.

In addition, the winner would have bragging rights that could help sell
another 200 helicopters to the U.S. Coast Guard and Department of
Homeland
Security, plus any overseas bounce.
--

[ranger703]

Just breaking now:

Lockheed Team Wins Presidential Chopper

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - In a surprise move, the U.S. Navy has chosen a
transatlantic team led by Lockheed Martin Corp. to build a new U.S.
presidential helicopter fleet in a deal valued at well over $1 billion,
several congressional sources said on Friday.

The decision was a stunning setback for Connecticut-based United
Technologies Corp.'s Sikorsky Aircraft unit -- which for nearly 50
years has
built and maintained the green and white "Marine One" helicopters that
fly
the president.

Sen. Charles Schumer, a New York Democrat, announced the decision in a
press
release, saying Lockheed's victory would bring hundreds of new jobs to
its
Owego, New York plant.

Lockheed, the Pentagon's No. 1 supplier, is pushing a spin-off of a
three-engined EH101 helicopter made by AgustaWestland Inc., an
Anglo-Italian
unit of Italy's Finmeccanica SpA . Fort Worth, Texas-based Textron
Inc.'s
Bell Helicopter is the other big partner.

The contract could also give Lockheed a boost when the Air Force next
year
orders 194 search and rescue helicopters that could be worth more than
$6
billion.

In addition, the winner would have bragging rights that could help sell
another 200 helicopters to the U.S. Coast Guard and Department of
Homeland
Security, plus any overseas bounce.
--

[Heliport]

Just breaking now?

It's been posted and discussed here and in the Rotorheads Forum for almost 12 hours. ;)

[Heliport]

Just breaking now?

It's been posted and discussed here and in the Rotorheads Forum for almost 12 hours. ;)

[toplad_22]

Now that the yanks have bought Merlin I suppose the Mk1 can kiss goodbye to it's long awaited spares as Agusta/Westlands will be bending over backwards to please it's new best friend !!!

[toplad_22]

Now that the yanks have bought Merlin I suppose the Mk1 can kiss goodbye to it's long awaited spares as Agusta/Westlands will be bending over backwards to please it's new best friend !!!

[hyd3failure]

Really great news for WHL. Congratulations to the entire workforce.

[hyd3failure]

Really great news for WHL. Congratulations to the entire workforce.

[Duncan Bucket]

I knew it, its the Pilot's fault. We should fire them all, then the Engineers can work on the cabs in the hangar to their hearts content without ever having the added pressure of making the aircraft serviceable to fly. And everyone will be happy, because we can wait as long as we like for the "spares to support the intial design " to be delivered, and the parts that were hugely over-estimated in their expected life won't wear out, 'cos we won't be using them.

Yes the drivers are the true villains for expecting too much of the machine they risk their lives in.

Selecting sarcasm off, resuming Sunday afternoon.

[Duncan Bucket]

I knew it, its the Pilot's fault. We should fire them all, then the Engineers can work on the cabs in the hangar to their hearts content without ever having the added pressure of making the aircraft serviceable to fly. And everyone will be happy, because we can wait as long as we like for the "spares to support the intial design " to be delivered, and the parts that were hugely over-estimated in their expected life won't wear out, 'cos we won't be using them.

Yes the drivers are the true villains for expecting too much of the machine they risk their lives in.

Selecting sarcasm off, resuming Sunday afternoon.

[sweep complete]

My God jungly, I thought I'd heard it all, but Merlins problems being the fault of pilots!! :confused:

What planet are you on???

[sweep complete]

My God jungly, I thought I'd heard it all, but Merlins problems being the fault of pilots!! :confused:

What planet are you on???

[TheWizard]

It seems that the "c#*p" Merlin appears to have beaten off competition from one of the worlds biggest helicopter manufacturers. Can't be that bad if they are prepared to fly George Dubya round in it! :ok:

[TheWizard]

It seems that the "c#*p" Merlin appears to have beaten off competition from one of the worlds biggest helicopter manufacturers. Can't be that bad if they are prepared to fly George Dubya round in it! :ok:

[tucumseh]

"Don't blame the procurers or the loggies......."


Good post Jungly. Spot on. Too many requirements are articulated, and hence funding dictated, without support specialist input. As approx 70% of through life costs are in the In-Service Support phase, if you get it wrong up front, it's always wrong. The recent move in DPA to be more strict and trade out performance (not just time and cost) is a direct result of what you describe.

[tucumseh]

"Don't blame the procurers or the loggies......."


Good post Jungly. Spot on. Too many requirements are articulated, and hence funding dictated, without support specialist input. As approx 70% of through life costs are in the In-Service Support phase, if you get it wrong up front, it's always wrong. The recent move in DPA to be more strict and trade out performance (not just time and cost) is a direct result of what you describe.

[Si Clik]

Trying to gauge the level of support required of a new aircraft is notoriously difficult as has been shown by C130J, Merlin and Apache. We haven't really even solved the problem with Sea Kings 30 years on. This is not somebodies FAULT but just a fact of the business were in.

Personally the VX1 decision is, I believe, a good piece of news for UK plc and if the Yanks build a better version I am sure (like the GR7) we may just buy it back.

Quantity of aircraft ordered WILL lead to a reduction in costs of unit spares and if the other orders for USAF and USCG go the same way will make the aircraft a truly global product.

Oh and for those of you who always slag this aircraft off - the US101 won this competition against the odds on MERIT.

I rest my case on all previous posts the US NAVY procurement system has proved it.



:hmm:

[Si Clik]

Trying to gauge the level of support required of a new aircraft is notoriously difficult as has been shown by C130J, Merlin and Apache. We haven't really even solved the problem with Sea Kings 30 years on. This is not somebodies FAULT but just a fact of the business were in.

Personally the VX1 decision is, I believe, a good piece of news for UK plc and if the Yanks build a better version I am sure (like the GR7) we may just buy it back.

Quantity of aircraft ordered WILL lead to a reduction in costs of unit spares and if the other orders for USAF and USCG go the same way will make the aircraft a truly global product.

Oh and for those of you who always slag this aircraft off - the US101 won this competition against the odds on MERIT.

I rest my case on all previous posts the US NAVY procurement system has proved it.



:hmm:

[Tourist]

Am I just being cynical in thinking that political machinations may have had a hand in the US buying a brit Helo after our long and expensive support of US foreign adventures?

I suspect they, quite rightly, think they can solve bthe problems because they are not a cottage industry

[Tourist]

Am I just being cynical in thinking that political machinations may have had a hand in the US buying a brit Helo after our long and expensive support of US foreign adventures?

I suspect they, quite rightly, think they can solve bthe problems because they are not a cottage industry

[FORMER PIONEER]

SI-CLIK..............I heartily agree with everything you say in the defence of Merlin, and I also believe it is a cracking bit of kit. We just need the stores/logistic support to catch up, then it will prove itself in the Fleet, and all the naysayers can have a huge slice of humble pie..................

However, I must correct you on one small fact. HMX-1 is the US Marine Corps Sqn that flies Dubya around, and is the Test and Evaluation Sqn for the USMC. They are the one's who had a hand in the decision. VX-1 conducts similar testing and evaluation, but for the US Navy, and so are busy with other aircraft types. Unlike us poor relations, the USMC and USN are completly seperate forces, and never the twain shall meet.

You learn something new everyday.............:D

[FORMER PIONEER]

SI-CLIK..............I heartily agree with everything you say in the defence of Merlin, and I also believe it is a cracking bit of kit. We just need the stores/logistic support to catch up, then it will prove itself in the Fleet, and all the naysayers can have a huge slice of humble pie..................

However, I must correct you on one small fact. HMX-1 is the US Marine Corps Sqn that flies Dubya around, and is the Test and Evaluation Sqn for the USMC. They are the one's who had a hand in the decision. VX-1 conducts similar testing and evaluation, but for the US Navy, and so are busy with other aircraft types. Unlike us poor relations, the USMC and USN are completly seperate forces, and never the twain shall meet.

You learn something new everyday.............:D

[fuel2noise]

Si Clic.... get back to the real world!!

"Oh and for those of you who always slag this aircraft off - the US101 won this competition against the odds on MERIT."

The USA choice of 'US101' was not made on merit alone. It is a crum of thanks for UK's adventure in Dubya's Iraq war. Nothing more, nothing less.

Until the RN is provided with adequate stores and engineering resources, Merlin will remain an outrageously expensive solution to a pretty basic problem (embarked ASW/ASuW/HDS, etc, etc.)

[fuel2noise]

Si Clic.... get back to the real world!!

"Oh and for those of you who always slag this aircraft off - the US101 won this competition against the odds on MERIT."

The USA choice of 'US101' was not made on merit alone. It is a crum of thanks for UK's adventure in Dubya's Iraq war. Nothing more, nothing less.

Until the RN is provided with adequate stores and engineering resources, Merlin will remain an outrageously expensive solution to a pretty basic problem (embarked ASW/ASuW/HDS, etc, etc.)

[Navaleye]

It looks like the UK workshare will be 20% or less, so its not that huge. It is arguably the most prestigeous project going, so well done. I hope they spend more time in the air than ours do. :O

junglyAEO, I applaud your optimism about getting our hands on a bunch of E2Cs, but I don\'t think there\'s a hope in hells chance of it ever happening. The SK 7 platform has turned out to be much better than we expected. It does have big limitations in covering deep strikes however. I also don\'t see any practical method of landing and E2 on CVF, unless we end up with a CTOL CVF.

[Navaleye]

It looks like the UK workshare will be 20% or less, so its not that huge. It is arguably the most prestigeous project going, so well done. I hope they spend more time in the air than ours do. :O

junglyAEO, I applaud your optimism about getting our hands on a bunch of E2Cs, but I don\'t think there\'s a hope in hells chance of it ever happening. The SK 7 platform has turned out to be much better than we expected. It does have big limitations in covering deep strikes however. I also don\'t see any practical method of landing and E2 on CVF, unless we end up with a CTOL CVF.

[foiled again]

Hear, Hear Si Clik...........

And if there was more than a hint of truth that US101 won on the back of TB's support, who cares. But then that would overlook that US101 was arguably the better fit for the spec required............?

Logistic Support ...... OK, there have been some issues and these will continue. There is however an element of 'you get what you pay for' here and Merlin is no different to any other product or service, it costs what it costs - so if appropriate funding is missing or the scaling somehow deficient.......... ????

The future....... from economy of scale savings to some radical MLUs...... exciting prospects although these won't feed through until the next decade.....

Finally, when the government of the day says jump (or in this case, buy) the MOD is almost duty-bound to say how high (or in this case, how many) rather than why........ Still, in terms of capability, Merlin has something new to bring to the party - just got to think beyond the existing party scenario perhaps.... ??

[foiled again]

Hear, Hear Si Clik...........

And if there was more than a hint of truth that US101 won on the back of TB's support, who cares. But then that would overlook that US101 was arguably the better fit for the spec required............?

Logistic Support ...... OK, there have been some issues and these will continue. There is however an element of 'you get what you pay for' here and Merlin is no different to any other product or service, it costs what it costs - so if appropriate funding is missing or the scaling somehow deficient.......... ????

The future....... from economy of scale savings to some radical MLUs...... exciting prospects although these won't feed through until the next decade.....

Finally, when the government of the day says jump (or in this case, buy) the MOD is almost duty-bound to say how high (or in this case, how many) rather than why........ Still, in terms of capability, Merlin has something new to bring to the party - just got to think beyond the existing party scenario perhaps.... ??

[High Wing Drifter]

The USA choice of 'US101' was not made on merit alone. It is a crum of thanks for UK's adventure in Dubya's Iraq war. Nothing more, nothing less.
The general point of VXX (US101) is to sell a further 220 to the marines, that is the real prize that LM are looking at. I am sure that the US will throw some kind of lifeline to Sikorsky though.

[High Wing Drifter]

The USA choice of 'US101' was not made on merit alone. It is a crum of thanks for UK's adventure in Dubya's Iraq war. Nothing more, nothing less.
The general point of VXX (US101) is to sell a further 220 to the marines, that is the real prize that LM are looking at. I am sure that the US will throw some kind of lifeline to Sikorsky though.

[High Wing Drifter]

The USAF are looking for a Personnel Recovery Vehicle (aka CSAR) platform, that the Merlin was always touted as a likely platform. Is this what you mean?
Yes, that is what I meant :=

[High Wing Drifter]

The USAF are looking for a Personnel Recovery Vehicle (aka CSAR) platform, that the Merlin was always touted as a likely platform. Is this what you mean?
Yes, that is what I meant :=

[WE Branch Fanatic]

Perhaps the job losses have something to do with with delays to SCMR?

This (http://navy-matters.beedall.com/scmr.htm) is an interesting article.

See also: 829 NAS (http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/static/pages/8130.html) and 815 NAS (http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/content/811.html)

[WE Branch Fanatic]

Perhaps the job losses have something to do with with delays to SCMR?

This (http://navy-matters.beedall.com/scmr.htm) is an interesting article.

See also: 829 NAS (http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/static/pages/8130.html) and 815 NAS (http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/content/811.html)

[crossbow]

WEBF - good post fella. I think that the majority of job losses at Wastelands are in the rotable section. i.e. Transmissions and drive shafts. Which makes sense as WHL won the contract to build the airframes and R.Blades.
I will be very interested to see how the companies fortunes pan out should they not win F Lynx and like youre link states, the NH90 wins the day.

[crossbow]

WEBF - good post fella. I think that the majority of job losses at Wastelands are in the rotable section. i.e. Transmissions and drive shafts. Which makes sense as WHL won the contract to build the airframes and R.Blades.
I will be very interested to see how the companies fortunes pan out should they not win F Lynx and like youre link states, the NH90 wins the day.

[dmanton300]

I think that the majority of job losses at Wastelands are in the rotable section. i.e. Transmissions and drive shafts.

Nope, 90 of the job losses are in transmissions. Majority are from the rest of the factory.

[dmanton300]

I think that the majority of job losses at Wastelands are in the rotable section. i.e. Transmissions and drive shafts.

Nope, 90 of the job losses are in transmissions. Majority are from the rest of the factory.

[RODF3]

HMX-1 is the US Marine Corps Sqn that flies Dubya around, and is the Test and Evaluation Sqn for the USMC. They are the one's who had a hand in the decision. VX-1 conducts similar testing and evaluation, but for the US Navy


ALMOST CORRECT EXCEPT THE NAVY DID CARRY OUT THE EVALUATION AT PAX RIVER NAS. I WAS THERE

[RODF3]

HMX-1 is the US Marine Corps Sqn that flies Dubya around, and is the Test and Evaluation Sqn for the USMC. They are the one's who had a hand in the decision. VX-1 conducts similar testing and evaluation, but for the US Navy


ALMOST CORRECT EXCEPT THE NAVY DID CARRY OUT THE EVALUATION AT PAX RIVER NAS. I WAS THERE

[crossbow]

Nope, 90 of the job losses are in transmissions. Majority are from the rest of the factory


And the rest of the factory do what????? yep...Rotables. Nugget

[crossbow]

Nope, 90 of the job losses are in transmissions. Majority are from the rest of the factory


And the rest of the factory do what????? yep...Rotables. Nugget

[WE Branch Fanatic]

From this page: (http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/static/pages/4451.html)

The Lynx is due to be phased out of service from 2008 when a future Surface Combatant Maritime Rotorcraft will replace it, operating from Frigates and Destroyers of the Royal Navy well into the 21st Century.

Less than four years to go? Might be time for placing orders....

[WE Branch Fanatic]

From this page: (http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/static/pages/4451.html)

The Lynx is due to be phased out of service from 2008 when a future Surface Combatant Maritime Rotorcraft will replace it, operating from Frigates and Destroyers of the Royal Navy well into the 21st Century.

Less than four years to go? Might be time for placing orders....

[dmanton300]

And the rest of the factory do what????? yep...Rotables. Nugget

Are you seriously suggesting that all 4,000 people only build transmissions and driveshafts? And I quote:-

I think that the majority of job losses at Wastelands are in the rotable section. i.e. Transmissions and drive shafts.

Your words, not mine. I guess santa's elves must come in overnight and assemble the helos then? Must be a relief for that 4000 to come in of a morning and find shiny new helos have materialised overnight just waiting for transmissions and driveshafts that they all make. . .

What was the nugget comment about?

[dmanton300]

And the rest of the factory do what????? yep...Rotables. Nugget

Are you seriously suggesting that all 4,000 people only build transmissions and driveshafts? And I quote:-

I think that the majority of job losses at Wastelands are in the rotable section. i.e. Transmissions and drive shafts.

Your words, not mine. I guess santa's elves must come in overnight and assemble the helos then? Must be a relief for that 4000 to come in of a morning and find shiny new helos have materialised overnight just waiting for transmissions and driveshafts that they all make. . .

What was the nugget comment about?

[crossbow]

Must be a relief for that 4000 to come in of a morning and find shiny new helos

what shiny new helo's? Will that be the four that South Africa have ordered? The four that haven't even had the metal cut yet? So, that 4000 workers and 4 "shiny new helicopters"...hmmmm no wonder there were job cuts !

As for the Lynx. I think you will find that the Lynx is due to be phased out STARTING from 2008. With over 60 airframes, the first one reaches lifex in 2008 and the remainder will go on for sometime...well beyond 2015. Still, that is no excuse for not starting the process to procure NH90...NOW!


A Nugget is a piece of gold

[crossbow]

Must be a relief for that 4000 to come in of a morning and find shiny new helos

what shiny new helo's? Will that be the four that South Africa have ordered? The four that haven't even had the metal cut yet? So, that 4000 workers and 4 "shiny new helicopters"...hmmmm no wonder there were job cuts !

As for the Lynx. I think you will find that the Lynx is due to be phased out STARTING from 2008. With over 60 airframes, the first one reaches lifex in 2008 and the remainder will go on for sometime...well beyond 2015. Still, that is no excuse for not starting the process to procure NH90...NOW!


A Nugget is a piece of gold

[Bigtop]

There are some incredibly good facts amongst this 'rumour' mill with stats and figures!! Whilst Si Clik is right in what he says and it is a fantastic machine with a huge capability increase over its predecessor - it is still plagued with problems.
Although now detached from the TAS I believe morale is fairly low in the community with limited stores and therefore serviceability. This makes prioritisation a constant battle and training is currently taking a massive hit - any courses running at the mo?? The sim is no doubt doing a roaring trade!!
7 years downstream from the first delivery and I understand configuration issues still abound to boot. Were I Mr Hertz and this was my brand new fleet of Mondeo's I'd be mightily pissed off.

Good news though I hear there's cash to build some new helicopter force HQ's!!

[Bigtop]

There are some incredibly good facts amongst this 'rumour' mill with stats and figures!! Whilst Si Clik is right in what he says and it is a fantastic machine with a huge capability increase over its predecessor - it is still plagued with problems.
Although now detached from the TAS I believe morale is fairly low in the community with limited stores and therefore serviceability. This makes prioritisation a constant battle and training is currently taking a massive hit - any courses running at the mo?? The sim is no doubt doing a roaring trade!!
7 years downstream from the first delivery and I understand configuration issues still abound to boot. Were I Mr Hertz and this was my brand new fleet of Mondeo's I'd be mightily pissed off.

Good news though I hear there's cash to build some new helicopter force HQ's!!

[toplad_22]

There is no doubt that Merlin is a fine A/C, give it an EO device,a weapon, upgrade the software and provide a bunch of reliably available spares and you can forget replacement Lynx and NH 90 it's all there. Give Westlands the contract to build a few more Merlins to augment 829 and the flights and replace Lynx completely, the Lynx crews can all convert, as quite a few have already, the Observer shortage will be addressed to boot.

JOBS A GOODUN !!

[toplad_22]

There is no doubt that Merlin is a fine A/C, give it an EO device,a weapon, upgrade the software and provide a bunch of reliably available spares and you can forget replacement Lynx and NH 90 it's all there. Give Westlands the contract to build a few more Merlins to augment 829 and the flights and replace Lynx completely, the Lynx crews can all convert, as quite a few have already, the Observer shortage will be addressed to boot.

JOBS A GOODUN !!

[crossbow]

There is no doubt that Merlin is a fine A/C, give it an EO device Its got one!

a weapon what type? ASW Weapon?
upgrade the software Its a brand new aircraft.... why upgrade the software? and if the software isn't correct why accept it?

Give Westlands the contract to build a few more Merlins to augment 829 there are 44 Merlin - what are you doing with them all?

the Lynx crews can all convert, as quite a few have already 2 have !

the Observer shortage will be addressed to boot Didnt know thwere was a Merlin Observer shortage.

Bit of a pipedream but I think what will really happen is that we will support just a handful of Merlin. That will be 5 or 6 maybe 7 at a stretch. This will mean a whole lot of Merlin aircrew will not have an aircraft to fly. They will be invited to convert to Lynx and that will create big problems as upto 40 Merlin crews are sent to Somerset. Now you move into the realsm of somerset not being able to support that many crews.

[crossbow]

There is no doubt that Merlin is a fine A/C, give it an EO device Its got one!

a weapon what type? ASW Weapon?
upgrade the software Its a brand new aircraft.... why upgrade the software? and if the software isn't correct why accept it?

Give Westlands the contract to build a few more Merlins to augment 829 there are 44 Merlin - what are you doing with them all?

the Lynx crews can all convert, as quite a few have already 2 have !

the Observer shortage will be addressed to boot Didnt know thwere was a Merlin Observer shortage.

Bit of a pipedream but I think what will really happen is that we will support just a handful of Merlin. That will be 5 or 6 maybe 7 at a stretch. This will mean a whole lot of Merlin aircrew will not have an aircraft to fly. They will be invited to convert to Lynx and that will create big problems as upto 40 Merlin crews are sent to Somerset. Now you move into the realsm of somerset not being able to support that many crews.

[toplad_22]

Crossbow, you sound very learned and I speak as a shop floor layman.
I believe the EO device is on loan as a trial, the weapon we could do with is the skua or similar. The software is still good but becoming obsolete ( procurement error ). we have 42 but ditto previous procurement point. As for Observer shortage if we don't have a shortage why the retention insentives?

[toplad_22]

Crossbow, you sound very learned and I speak as a shop floor layman.
I believe the EO device is on loan as a trial, the weapon we could do with is the skua or similar. The software is still good but becoming obsolete ( procurement error ). we have 42 but ditto previous procurement point. As for Observer shortage if we don't have a shortage why the retention insentives?

[crossbow]

Not sure why you would need a Sea Skua - or something similar FTM ? Agree maybe snap a couple of Penguin or Hellfire would do the trick. As for Observer shortage. How many Merlin flights are gapped an Observer?

[crossbow]

Not sure why you would need a Sea Skua - or something similar FTM ? Agree maybe snap a couple of Penguin or Hellfire would do the trick. As for Observer shortage. How many Merlin flights are gapped an Observer?

[Si Clik]

Just to clear things up.

There is a big Observer shortage across the board.

The Merlin issue is short and not long term - in any case there are plenty of gapped Obs Merlin billets.

We have trouble recruiting observers.

Crossbow's Lynx to Merlin figures are a tad inaccurate.

There is a great deal of work going in to the right Lx/Merlin balance and the desire for a 2 aircraft type solution is very much alive.

ALL grey helicopter personnel should WORK TOGETHER to ensure it will work.

:hmm:

[Si Clik]

Just to clear things up.

There is a big Observer shortage across the board.

The Merlin issue is short and not long term - in any case there are plenty of gapped Obs Merlin billets.

We have trouble recruiting observers.

Crossbow's Lynx to Merlin figures are a tad inaccurate.

There is a great deal of work going in to the right Lx/Merlin balance and the desire for a 2 aircraft type solution is very much alive.

ALL grey helicopter personnel should WORK TOGETHER to ensure it will work.

:hmm:

[Oggin Aviator]

There is a big Observer shortage across the board.

Just sitting on the fence but will this have an influence on any decision to either discontinue, continue or increase the FRI (for the RN)?

IMO, keeping an eye on the commercial aviation sector, the airlines are starting to recruit more people with low houred fATPLs - a prime job for a disillusioned Obs williing to spend his/her gratuity on a licence.

As I said, just sitting on the fence and sorry to hijack the thread.

Oggin

[Oggin Aviator]

There is a big Observer shortage across the board.

Just sitting on the fence but will this have an influence on any decision to either discontinue, continue or increase the FRI (for the RN)?

IMO, keeping an eye on the commercial aviation sector, the airlines are starting to recruit more people with low houred fATPLs - a prime job for a disillusioned Obs williing to spend his/her gratuity on a licence.

As I said, just sitting on the fence and sorry to hijack the thread.

Oggin

[Navaleye]

Not sure why you would need a Sea Skua - or something similar FTM ? Agree maybe snap a couple of Penguin or Hellfire would do the trick

Penguin gets my vote, much longer range and a bigger warhead than Sea Skua. I don't think you'd want to get something with the radar sig of a bus any closer to its than you have to.

[Navaleye]

Not sure why you would need a Sea Skua - or something similar FTM ? Agree maybe snap a couple of Penguin or Hellfire would do the trick

Penguin gets my vote, much longer range and a bigger warhead than Sea Skua. I don't think you'd want to get something with the radar sig of a bus any closer to its than you have to.

[Toxteth O'Grady]

Crossbow, you sound very learned

So does a Sun reporter but it all depends who the reader is! It's called smoke and mirrors.

Its a brand new aircraft

Wrong. It's been in squadron service for over 6 years. Hardly what I would describe as "brand new."

and if the software isn't correct why accept it?

How naive :hmm: Take it you bought Windows XP and have not bothered with SP1, SP2 and all Critical Updates. After all if the software isn't correct why buy it?

You obviously know nothing about software development and block release strategies. Merlin is now on its third in-service block release of mission software. These were separately funded enhancements due to new requirements. It's due more block releases but I'm not going into detail here.

Ever flown an aircraft with software in it? If you had you would understand that frequent upgrade releases of software are normal, even in the commercial world.

:cool:

TOG

[Toxteth O'Grady]

Crossbow, you sound very learned

So does a Sun reporter but it all depends who the reader is! It's called smoke and mirrors.

Its a brand new aircraft

Wrong. It's been in squadron service for over 6 years. Hardly what I would describe as "brand new."

and if the software isn't correct why accept it?

How naive :hmm: Take it you bought Windows XP and have not bothered with SP1, SP2 and all Critical Updates. After all if the software isn't correct why buy it?

You obviously know nothing about software development and block release strategies. Merlin is now on its third in-service block release of mission software. These were separately funded enhancements due to new requirements. It's due more block releases but I'm not going into detail here.

Ever flown an aircraft with software in it? If you had you would understand that frequent upgrade releases of software are normal, even in the commercial world.

:cool:

TOG

[burpblade]

No Si. Disagree. Drop the political stuff; comes over all wrong.

2 a/c solution?

No dosh/need for one. See……

New(ish)Big one fast(er), talks to many at once, can find needle in haystack above and below the waves, can carry much stuff/peeps, now needs proper eyes to see in dark plus suitable weapons (see above posts).

Old small grey one slow, talks to self plus one other (but usually self), wheezes in hot weather, carries nowt. Can join in most stuff if pressed by thrusting CO but not much kop unless opposition in basic war canoe armed with sharp guava fruit. Perfect match for FF/DD. “ MO” to creep up on death mission with fingers and legs crossed and let rip (respect here – thank goodness not done much). Otherwise good fun for 1 tour eh chaps. Face it. It’s OVER.

Give all kit needed to new(ish) Big one and let small old one dribble on until drones replace. Keys to FAA strong box should be handed over NOW.

Look ahead. Small attack helo? Is a Hind small? Combat power? Don’t make me laugh.

[burpblade]

No Si. Disagree. Drop the political stuff; comes over all wrong.

2 a/c solution?

No dosh/need for one. See……

New(ish)Big one fast(er), talks to many at once, can find needle in haystack above and below the waves, can carry much stuff/peeps, now needs proper eyes to see in dark plus suitable weapons (see above posts).

Old small grey one slow, talks to self plus one other (but usually self), wheezes in hot weather, carries nowt. Can join in most stuff if pressed by thrusting CO but not much kop unless opposition in basic war canoe armed with sharp guava fruit. Perfect match for FF/DD. “ MO” to creep up on death mission with fingers and legs crossed and let rip (respect here – thank goodness not done much). Otherwise good fun for 1 tour eh chaps. Face it. It’s OVER.

Give all kit needed to new(ish) Big one and let small old one dribble on until drones replace. Keys to FAA strong box should be handed over NOW.

Look ahead. Small attack helo? Is a Hind small? Combat power? Don’t make me laugh.

[BossEyed]

Si Clik:
Crossbow's Lynx to Merlin figures are a tad inaccurate.
You amaze me. Crossbow in error? Surely not. :}

[BossEyed]

Si Clik:
Crossbow's Lynx to Merlin figures are a tad inaccurate.
You amaze me. Crossbow in error? Surely not. :}

[rjsquirrel]

Air force juggles rescue choppers
The Daily News (Halifax)
Fri 30 Sep 2005
Page: 11
Byline: Chris Lambie


The air force is juggling its fleet of relatively new search and rescue
helicopters around the country because of cracking problems.

Two CH-149 Cormorant helicopters from Trenton, Ont., will head east to
Greenwood and to Gander, N.L., to ensure those bases always have two
choppers on standby.

"They want to make sure that each search and rescue squadron on the coast
has at least two perfectly running aircraft all the time, " said Capt. John
Pulchny of 14 Wing Greenwood.

The Annapolis Valley base now has three Cormorants. Two are flying and one
is in maintenance. A fourth is on loan to Trenton.

The Ontario base will use Griffon helicopters for search and rescue until at
least next spring.

The military blames the Cormorant move on ongoing problems with cracked tail
rotor assemblies and a shortage of spares, including main gearboxes and main
rotor heads.

Canada started to buy the helicopter in 2001. But it grounded the 15
choppers temporarily in October 2004 after discovering cracks in the tail
rotor half hubs. A British Royal Navy version of the chopper crashed because
of the same problem.

According to newly released documents, Cormorant crews have faced 182
serious incidents, often forcing them to execute emergency landings or abort
takeoff. Canadian military engineers have been working on finding the cause
of the cracks for almost a year with no results. They have opted to
repeatedly replace parts and restrict flights.

[Mikester540]

What a peice of crap!

Let's hope it doesn't kill someone like the other EH-101's have in the past!


:mad:

[The Nr Fairy]

A poster from Connecticut raising a small whiff of sour grapes ?

Every aircraft has had teething problems - even Sikorsky's finest.

[Barndweller]

Hope they sort the problems.

Question... Have there been fatalities invloving production aircraft? Am aware of fatal accidents involving the prototypes during test and development, but was not aware of anything after that.

Agree with the fairy... Give it a go and don't let the fact that your nose is a little out of joint after the award of a recent high profile order colour your judgment too much. Sikorsky are in no position to raise the issue of tailboom cracks!!! (and that comes from one who knows and loves the 76).

[OiOiOi Hoot Hoot]

Let's hope it doesn't kill someone like the other EH-101's have in the past!

Sweeping statement

[remote hook]

It's an "A" model behaving like all "A" models do.

To make a statement like "what a piece of crap," is uninformed. The Cormorant already has accomplished many successful rescue missions that could not have been done in the past, including the farthest offshore rescue anywhere, ever.

It's going to take some time to work the bugs out, and the military beingthe military, it might take that much longer than many of us would like to see.

RH