Circuit flying
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Cumbria
Posts: 228
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Skytorque... Interesting comment, I remember teaching NDB holds, where the NDB was located on the field with no ATIS. i used to teach to call 'beacon outbound' on each hold then 'beacon outbound for the procedure RWY xx', but got picked up on this by a more senior instructor, in a sense he was correct, but circuit traffic and inbound and outbound traffic, would forget someone was in the hold.
That also makes me think are climbs or descents in the overhead ever required, surely the simplest way is to climb and set course with reference to a local area landmark or VRP, again rejoining on crosswind, downwind, base or finals, according to traffic. Climbing and descending in the overhead always seemed to me a good way to have a midair, as well as a waste of fuel and time.
That also makes me think are climbs or descents in the overhead ever required, surely the simplest way is to climb and set course with reference to a local area landmark or VRP, again rejoining on crosswind, downwind, base or finals, according to traffic. Climbing and descending in the overhead always seemed to me a good way to have a midair, as well as a waste of fuel and time.
Last edited by Homsap; 2nd Jul 2017 at 12:44.
Perhaps it depends upon the airfield you're at, but I can see no benefit of squaring off the circuit - only drawbacks. Now my background is predominantly military, including many hours teaching circuits to student pilots including ab-initios. I agree that the entire circuit is a valuable handling and airmanship exercise, not just the landing or take-off.
Whilst some tweaking of the circuit was allowed to cater for others in the circuit, the (racetrack) circuit was almost identical for everyone. Yes, you could extend a tad downwind, but if it was more than a 'tad', you went around, cleaned up, repositioned on the dead-side before flying your next circuit. The key decision being when to turn downwind. If the guy you went around for was now rolling, then you could comfortably turn ahead of him. If there was someone ahead of him climbing to remain then you could even turn ahead of him, as long as he hadn't started his upwind turn. Far better to trombone the upwind end of the circuit than the downwind/finals end. The final turn invariably being coordinated to put the aircraft accurately over the extended centreline at about 2-300ft (the 300ft point!). Not unheard of to get 10-12 rollers in within an hour!
I see no posible benefit from 'squaring' the circuit, it just exacerbates the chances of getting in each others way, makes the circuit longer to fly and so probably discourages a go-around being flown when you are 'getting desperate' to get at least a few t&gs in. I'm impressed to hear that some guys fly the base-leg knowing they can always make the runway in the event of a power loss!
The racetrack works perfectly well even for big (100,000lbs) aircraft and multi-piston 'bomber' type aircraft. The upwind turn (30-45deg AoB) is invariably flown at a higher IAS than finals and so - ignoring any crossing component - allows less bank (ideally 20-30deg AoB) throughout the 180deg final turn. I accept that many aircraft have a 'heavyweight' circuit where bank had to be limited and your fully-configured threshold speeds could be higher than a normal downwind speed!
Whilst some tweaking of the circuit was allowed to cater for others in the circuit, the (racetrack) circuit was almost identical for everyone. Yes, you could extend a tad downwind, but if it was more than a 'tad', you went around, cleaned up, repositioned on the dead-side before flying your next circuit. The key decision being when to turn downwind. If the guy you went around for was now rolling, then you could comfortably turn ahead of him. If there was someone ahead of him climbing to remain then you could even turn ahead of him, as long as he hadn't started his upwind turn. Far better to trombone the upwind end of the circuit than the downwind/finals end. The final turn invariably being coordinated to put the aircraft accurately over the extended centreline at about 2-300ft (the 300ft point!). Not unheard of to get 10-12 rollers in within an hour!
I see no posible benefit from 'squaring' the circuit, it just exacerbates the chances of getting in each others way, makes the circuit longer to fly and so probably discourages a go-around being flown when you are 'getting desperate' to get at least a few t&gs in. I'm impressed to hear that some guys fly the base-leg knowing they can always make the runway in the event of a power loss!
The racetrack works perfectly well even for big (100,000lbs) aircraft and multi-piston 'bomber' type aircraft. The upwind turn (30-45deg AoB) is invariably flown at a higher IAS than finals and so - ignoring any crossing component - allows less bank (ideally 20-30deg AoB) throughout the 180deg final turn. I accept that many aircraft have a 'heavyweight' circuit where bank had to be limited and your fully-configured threshold speeds could be higher than a normal downwind speed!
Last edited by H Peacock; 2nd Jul 2017 at 14:06.
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: uk
Posts: 1,041
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nice to have the circuit to yourself when the weather crap and can fly 600 foot oval circuits and get 10-12 landings in.
Of course the military usually operate one type for ab-initio.
Our circuit now can consist of one of each, flexwing, gyro, Cessna various, Piper various, makes for an interesting circuit.
And helis both left and right of runway.
Reminds me of the interesting afternoon at Barkston Heath.
Mil chopper pilots bust through the circuit.
Instructor in the instructor crew room moaning who taught those guys.
20 minutes later they appeared in the room asking if their old instructors were still there.
You couldn't make it up!
Of course the military usually operate one type for ab-initio.
Our circuit now can consist of one of each, flexwing, gyro, Cessna various, Piper various, makes for an interesting circuit.
And helis both left and right of runway.
Reminds me of the interesting afternoon at Barkston Heath.
Mil chopper pilots bust through the circuit.
Instructor in the instructor crew room moaning who taught those guys.
20 minutes later they appeared in the room asking if their old instructors were still there.
You couldn't make it up!
BEB
Circuits were: normally/flapless flown at 1000ft QFE, glides at 1500ft, low-level 500ft. All over approximately the same ground track, so downwind spaceing picture (roundel v runway varied).
Very rarely on your own. Worked well with 4 perhaps 5 in including formations. Of course when you went somewhere like Coningsby you could easily have 6 or more types with LH and RH circuits being used simulataneously, but then it relied on impressive ATC and sound awareness in each cockpit.
As for infringing ATZs and RA(T)s etc, I very much doubt the military guys are top of the list!
Circuits were: normally/flapless flown at 1000ft QFE, glides at 1500ft, low-level 500ft. All over approximately the same ground track, so downwind spaceing picture (roundel v runway varied).
Very rarely on your own. Worked well with 4 perhaps 5 in including formations. Of course when you went somewhere like Coningsby you could easily have 6 or more types with LH and RH circuits being used simulataneously, but then it relied on impressive ATC and sound awareness in each cockpit.
As for infringing ATZs and RA(T)s etc, I very much doubt the military guys are top of the list!
Nice to have the circuit to yourself when the weather crap and can fly 600 foot oval circuits and get 10-12 landings in.
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: uk
Posts: 1,041
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I recall arriving at Shobdon with no traffic and flying a nice tight circuit. The AFISO requested that I adjust my circuit to fly outside the villages to comply with local regulations. This increased the track distance from 3.5 nm to 6.8 nm and pushed me to the edge of the ATZ!
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Cumbria
Posts: 228
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have to add, I find it rather annoying that people buy houses near former WW2 airfields and start dictacting the circuit patterns, light aircraft are no louder than say tractors or combine harvesters. It's very irritating to have to depart and turn left or right just to please someone who has an expensive barrister or an ex government minister (MH).
I think most pilot's are considerate in terms of noise abatement, and more importantly their option for safe flight and EFATO options. In summary, if I am required to depart turn thirty degrees left, it just moves the noise problem onto another dwelling. the moral of the story, is solicitors should advise purchasers if the property lies within an atz.
I think most pilot's are considerate in terms of noise abatement, and more importantly their option for safe flight and EFATO options. In summary, if I am required to depart turn thirty degrees left, it just moves the noise problem onto another dwelling. the moral of the story, is solicitors should advise purchasers if the property lies within an atz.
The helicopter, microlight and bad wx (600') circuits at Shobdon are all inside the villages. Standard (1000') circuits are outside.
