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Flying Instructors & Examiners A place for instructors to communicate with one another because some of them get a bit tired of the attitude that instructing is the lowest form of aviation, as seems to prevail on some of the other forums!

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Old 10th Jan 2017, 08:44   #1 (permalink)
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Failed LPC becomes PUT

Does anyone have to hand the reference that defines a failed LPC or LST as becoming PUT?
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Old 10th Jan 2017, 10:15   #2 (permalink)
 
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CAP 804 Section 1 Part E Para 9 Table Item J
Quote:
Pilot undergoing any form of flight test with a EASA or CAA Authorised Examiner (other than case K).

PICUS for successful Test P/UT for unsuccessful test (including partial pass)
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Old 10th Jan 2017, 10:35   #3 (permalink)
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Thanks Whoppity. Is there anything that links to Part FCL for this?
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Old 10th Jan 2017, 12:57   #4 (permalink)
 
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This is a specifically UK interpretation that is not supported by EU regulations. In fact, according to the regulation, the use of PICUS is restricted to multi-pilot operations.
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Old 10th Jan 2017, 13:16   #5 (permalink)
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Hmmmm, OK so what is the EU regs stance?
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Old 10th Jan 2017, 13:27   #6 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
FCL.050 Recording of flight time
The pilot shall keep a reliable record of the details of all flights flown in a form and manner established by the competent authority.
No mention of tests or how to log it in the regulation
Quote:
AMC1 FCL.050 Recording of flight time
(1) PIC flight time:
(i) the holder of a licence may log as PIC time all of the flight time
during which he or she is the PIC;

(4) instruction time: a summary of all time logged by an applicant for a
licence or rating as flight instruction, instrument flight instruction,
instrument ground time, etc., may be logged if certified by the
appropriately rated or authorised instructor from whom it was received;

(5) PICUS flight time: provided that the method of supervision is acceptable
to the competent authority, a co-pilot may log as PIC flight time flown as
PICUS when all the duties and functions of PIC on that flight were carried
out in such a way that the intervention of the PIC in the interest of safety
was not required.
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Old 10th Jan 2017, 20:51   #7 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Does anyone have to hand the reference that defines a failed LPC or LST as becoming PUT?
You are asking the question the wrong way round:

The Examiner will always be Captain and so will Log PIC in all cases.
Therefore, in Single Pilot Aeroplanes, the Candidate can only be PUT unless there is a rule somewhere that stipulates otherwise - and in the UK there is, but this applies only to successful tests.

So, as Whopity quoted, there is a reference that defines a passed LPC or LST as becoming PICUS.
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Old 11th Jan 2017, 12:48   #8 (permalink)
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I know I am asking the question the wrong way round. There is method in my madness.......

If a candidate takes an LPC and an NAA negates the LPC the flight becomes a training flight. If the NAA then says that it can't be a training flight because it was an LPC where do you stand......
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Old 11th Jan 2017, 21:46   #9 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bose-x View Post
I know I am asking the question the wrong way round. There is method in my madness.......

If a candidate takes an LPC and an NAA negates the LPC the flight becomes a training flight. If the NAA then says that it can't be a training flight because it was an LPC where do you stand......
Interesting scenario. I assume 'real life'?

Ask the NAA concerned as the only other option I can think of would be the PIC (Examiner) carried
a passenger that they allowed to fly the aircraft and, I would assume, a fare paying passenger at
that!
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Old 12th Jan 2017, 21:04   #10 (permalink)
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Yep, real life.

I asked the NAA to tell me how they think it should be logged with no response other than they do not deem it a training flight!!
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Old 13th Jan 2017, 04:43   #11 (permalink)
 
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bose-x
Is this the same situation as you described in your Post "Training Rejection Conundrum..."?

I would suggest that the flight was a DUAL flight so the Candidate would Log PUT, but that the NAA is saying that they will not accept it as a required Training flight for the purposes of EASA Licencing
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Old 13th Jan 2017, 08:19   #12 (permalink)
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Yeah, it's linked to that.

Since the NAA are unable to state what they consider to be a required training flight and unable to say what they think the flight should be logged as I am no further forward!!

Candidate has now done four training sessions where FCL.740 SUGGESTS two. They have over ridden me as Head of Training but are unprepared to actually make a statement of exactly what they want!! This is a Type Rates aircraft we are discussing not a cheap SEP.

I have never seen anything like it!
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