Student Pilot Go Arounds
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Student Pilot Go Around's
I'm not a Pilot first of all, but have an Aviation background both in US Army and Contractor- Grumman Aerospace. That being said, there is a FAR Part 61 Section 87- "Solo Requirements for Student Pilots". I think that's the correct one. Anybody out "there" in the this Forum who are a Flight Instructor/Pilot, here is my Question and please reply:
For a Student Pilot, What is the AVERAGE number of Go-Around's a Student Pilot will attempt to complete a Landing?
Second Question, Do they always "get it right"?
For a Student Pilot, What is the AVERAGE number of Go-Around's a Student Pilot will attempt to complete a Landing?
Second Question, Do they always "get it right"?
What is the AVERAGE number of Go-Around's a Student Pilot will attempt to complete a Landing?
Second Question, Do they always "get it right"?
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probably in the area of 4 to 6 - Instructor needs to make sure student is executing in flawlessly. My first go-around happened before I was trained to do go-arounds - guy on a flexi wing had a wind gust knock him off runway - I applied full power but kept the nose down to rubber neck and see if he's all right. My FI wasn't impressed, but sure enough once you can demonstrate that you understand the concept a couple of consecutive times you're good to go
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Student Pilot and go Arounds
For the numbers, can one say a student Pilot will have 1, or more go around's to complete a landing attempt. Or, it's random?
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In short many a necessary before a landing from a stabilised approach is completed. Its quite normal to practice go-arounds as part of the the training,
in fact go-arounds are encouraged if the approach doesn't look right.
in fact go-arounds are encouraged if the approach doesn't look right.
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That aside, I'll try to understand your question and answer where I can. Not sure of the relevance of the FAR bit, but as for:
If a students goes around, by definition they don't complete a landing. One doesn't 'attempt a go around' in order to complete a landing. A go-around is always an option when landing, and if the pilot (student or otherwise) is in any way unhappy with how it's going, a go-around is usually the wise option.
Second Question, Do they always "get it right"?
What, the landing or the go-around?
Landing: Sometimes a landing goes wrong for any number of reasons. A good pilot, student or otherwise, will recognise early on the point at which it's wise to go around rather than press on with the landing. A worse decision is to leave the go-around until late, a terrible decision is to 'press on regardless' no matter how badly the approach is going.
Go around: I never had any difficulty with these and I suspect that's then case for most. The biggest considerations are the trim changes in going from a low power or even power-off approach to a full power climb, re-trimming the aeroplane, and dumping 'drag' flap immediately and 'lift' flap in stages as speed builds.
A go-around from a power-off approach in the Chipmunk needs four hands; one for the power, one for the stick, one for the trim, one for the flaps. Being only blessed with two hands one compromises; apply full power with friction nut tight then leave the power momentarily and put left hand on stick. Right hand dumps drag flap and the carb heat then gets back on stick. The left hand goes from stick to trim while right hand maintains a push on the stick to contain out-of-trim-forces. Once trimmed for the full power climb the left hand goes back to power (with the friction nut set the power should stay on 'full'. If it doesn't, the nearest hand will bang it on again as a priority!). At 65 knots and accelerating in the climb the left hand again takes the stick while the right hand dumps the final stage of flap. Thereafter hands go back to left one on power, right one on stick as per normal.
For a Student Pilot, What is the AVERAGE number of Go-Around's a Student Pilot will attempt to complete a Landing?
Second Question, Do they always "get it right"?
Landing: Sometimes a landing goes wrong for any number of reasons. A good pilot, student or otherwise, will recognise early on the point at which it's wise to go around rather than press on with the landing. A worse decision is to leave the go-around until late, a terrible decision is to 'press on regardless' no matter how badly the approach is going.
Go around: I never had any difficulty with these and I suspect that's then case for most. The biggest considerations are the trim changes in going from a low power or even power-off approach to a full power climb, re-trimming the aeroplane, and dumping 'drag' flap immediately and 'lift' flap in stages as speed builds.
A go-around from a power-off approach in the Chipmunk needs four hands; one for the power, one for the stick, one for the trim, one for the flaps. Being only blessed with two hands one compromises; apply full power with friction nut tight then leave the power momentarily and put left hand on stick. Right hand dumps drag flap and the carb heat then gets back on stick. The left hand goes from stick to trim while right hand maintains a push on the stick to contain out-of-trim-forces. Once trimmed for the full power climb the left hand goes back to power (with the friction nut set the power should stay on 'full'. If it doesn't, the nearest hand will bang it on again as a priority!). At 65 knots and accelerating in the climb the left hand again takes the stick while the right hand dumps the final stage of flap. Thereafter hands go back to left one on power, right one on stick as per normal.
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First question is very tricky to put a number to. There are so many variables such as weather, currency, experience, nerves, training etc. etc. that would make any "average" figure questionable.
Second question - almost definitely a "no". I don't think there is a pilot on this forum who would say that they have always made the right call at the right time, however that's part of the constant learning curve that is flying aeroplanes.
Again the decision to "go around" can sometimes be very clear; for example traffic entering the active while you're approaching, or it can be very subjective; the student pilot not feeling comfortably configured for the landing for example. IMO "Getting it right" in this context means taking the safest possible action at any given time, and if that means I need to go around 10 times before I feel comfortable to land safely, then I did "get it right".
Second question - almost definitely a "no". I don't think there is a pilot on this forum who would say that they have always made the right call at the right time, however that's part of the constant learning curve that is flying aeroplanes.
Again the decision to "go around" can sometimes be very clear; for example traffic entering the active while you're approaching, or it can be very subjective; the student pilot not feeling comfortably configured for the landing for example. IMO "Getting it right" in this context means taking the safest possible action at any given time, and if that means I need to go around 10 times before I feel comfortable to land safely, then I did "get it right".
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For a Student Pilot, What is the AVERAGE number of Go-Around's a Student Pilot will attempt to complete a Landing?
Second Question, Do they always "get it right"?
Second Question, Do they always "get it right"?
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Better to answer this in a different way )) Any landing could have to be thrown away either because the pilot is not happy with the approach and landing, messes up the landing and the best way out is to take to the air again or cannot land because the runway is not available for whatever reason.
It is therefore vitally important that a solo student can handle a go around from anywhere in the approach to a touch and go!
The last thing you want is to be glued to landing whatever the situation because your not comfortable with a go around
For me it's as important as being able to land
So it like landing will take as long as it takes and you should not go solo till you can confidently handle a go around whether that's one attempt at a go around or 20 ))
Pace
It is therefore vitally important that a solo student can handle a go around from anywhere in the approach to a touch and go!
The last thing you want is to be glued to landing whatever the situation because your not comfortable with a go around
For me it's as important as being able to land
So it like landing will take as long as it takes and you should not go solo till you can confidently handle a go around whether that's one attempt at a go around or 20 ))
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 19th Jan 2016 at 16:05.
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I flew with a student on their first circuit session today. Out of eight circuits, I demonstrated one, the student touched down five times and he executed two go arounds.
I would generally expect one or two go arounds on an early circuit session, with go arounds becoming fewer as the student progresses. As students approach solo standard, go arounds are often initiated by the instructor just to make sure the student is ready.
I would generally expect one or two go arounds on an early circuit session, with go arounds becoming fewer as the student progresses. As students approach solo standard, go arounds are often initiated by the instructor just to make sure the student is ready.
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Well.. Going around is still an exceptional maneuver in normal operations.
Even with gusty winds or crosswind I think i never went around without an exterior reason (i've had two runway incursions..)
Of course it's different for short runways.
I usually fly on long runways (2km+) so if I mess up the flare i can always just add a bit more power and make a longer landing safely.
If i fly on a short runway then I'll have a different behavior : low-energy approach and careful flare without trying to kiss.
Actually the flare is much more difficult than the approach itself, especially because you have less time to react should a problem arise.
Even with gusty winds or crosswind I think i never went around without an exterior reason (i've had two runway incursions..)
Of course it's different for short runways.
I usually fly on long runways (2km+) so if I mess up the flare i can always just add a bit more power and make a longer landing safely.
If i fly on a short runway then I'll have a different behavior : low-energy approach and careful flare without trying to kiss.
Actually the flare is much more difficult than the approach itself, especially because you have less time to react should a problem arise.
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I don't really understand the reasoning here, and it seems the OP doesn't understand the reason for go-arounds, it's not an exercise in landing, which is how I read the question.
Initially the student will be taught to land the thing, the instructor will do any go arounds that he deems necessary, after the pilot can reasonably land he will be taught go arounds from various parts of final.
Initially the student will be taught to land the thing, the instructor will do any go arounds that he deems necessary, after the pilot can reasonably land he will be taught go arounds from various parts of final.
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The way I read the opening post was that he was questioning whether student pilots manage to make a landing first time they approach, or do they cock it up and have to go around more often than not...
I teach go around before I teach landings for 2 reasons
1) To ensure the student is proficient in actually flying a safe go around
2) To encourage the mindset that a landing does not necessarily have to be the end result of an approach to landing and that rather than force a bad approach the student will have the confidence to go around
Before the start of the first circuit lesson I go to the practice area and have the student fly a few practice circuits with a notional runway at 1500 feet AGL. This allows the student to practice attaining and maintaining the correct pitch/power/airspeed/trim/balance for each leg of the circuit and develop proficiency in flying a proper go around.
So to answer the OP's question, my students will have done at least 3 or 4 go arounds before their first landing.
1) To ensure the student is proficient in actually flying a safe go around
2) To encourage the mindset that a landing does not necessarily have to be the end result of an approach to landing and that rather than force a bad approach the student will have the confidence to go around
Before the start of the first circuit lesson I go to the practice area and have the student fly a few practice circuits with a notional runway at 1500 feet AGL. This allows the student to practice attaining and maintaining the correct pitch/power/airspeed/trim/balance for each leg of the circuit and develop proficiency in flying a proper go around.
So to answer the OP's question, my students will have done at least 3 or 4 go arounds before their first landing.
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I think what you are asking Lee is how many go arounds will a student make before he actually lands the aircraft correctly. FARs require that go around training be logged in the log book.
There is no one answer to that, some students take to landing like they have been doing it for years, others strugle all the way. How many go arounds are made are proportional to how many bad landings that are made.
Minor corrections can be made by the instructor at first and the student later, so for teaching purposes a poor landing may be smoothed out to improve handling awareness near the ground but before first solo the student must be in no doubt that any doubtful landing needs an immeadiate go around without instructor input
To be able to teach go arounds properly a student has to make bad landings because what you are trying to teach is an instinctive reaction to a bad landing. If the student doesnt make any bad landings that warrant a go around(and its rare) you have to make a bad landing yourself and then give him control and command him to go around.
You have to let the student struggle at first without interruption and this is where low houred instructors can be bad value because you have to really sit on your hands and mouth sometimes because you can be bounced around to hell and back but you only need to take over when its about to become dangerous, it takes many hours of instruction to identify that point. So during training a students may be allowed to go further with a bad landing than the average low hour pilot would when flying solo providing of course the instructor deems it safe.
Most landing accidents are caused by the pilot failing to initiate an early go around and this is usually as a result of this not being taught properly.
I should add that there are a variety of reasons for a go around:
On the approach, in the roundout and on the runway that need to be taught, many go arounds have nothing to do with a bad landing. The lack of mention of this here underlines how poorly this exercise is understood and taught in my opinion.
There is no one answer to that, some students take to landing like they have been doing it for years, others strugle all the way. How many go arounds are made are proportional to how many bad landings that are made.
Minor corrections can be made by the instructor at first and the student later, so for teaching purposes a poor landing may be smoothed out to improve handling awareness near the ground but before first solo the student must be in no doubt that any doubtful landing needs an immeadiate go around without instructor input
To be able to teach go arounds properly a student has to make bad landings because what you are trying to teach is an instinctive reaction to a bad landing. If the student doesnt make any bad landings that warrant a go around(and its rare) you have to make a bad landing yourself and then give him control and command him to go around.
You have to let the student struggle at first without interruption and this is where low houred instructors can be bad value because you have to really sit on your hands and mouth sometimes because you can be bounced around to hell and back but you only need to take over when its about to become dangerous, it takes many hours of instruction to identify that point. So during training a students may be allowed to go further with a bad landing than the average low hour pilot would when flying solo providing of course the instructor deems it safe.
Most landing accidents are caused by the pilot failing to initiate an early go around and this is usually as a result of this not being taught properly.
I should add that there are a variety of reasons for a go around:
On the approach, in the roundout and on the runway that need to be taught, many go arounds have nothing to do with a bad landing. The lack of mention of this here underlines how poorly this exercise is understood and taught in my opinion.
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I think I Get it, but Not Sure...
The real numbers? Who knows? Some students get it right and understand the first time; other may take a while. Also important to remember that a C-172 is not B-737 or larger. Actions, procedures and results Will Vary.
If you are a CFI or any grade, when the student masters the procedure with little or no comment from you. In the end, the aircraft does not matter. What matters is to always be prepared and during approach and landing, Always be prepared to modify your plan. Always.
If you are a CFI or any grade, when the student masters the procedure with little or no comment from you. In the end, the aircraft does not matter. What matters is to always be prepared and during approach and landing, Always be prepared to modify your plan. Always.
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A student is taught to go-around because it is safer than trying to fix a screwed up landing
Before first solo it is vital that a student be instructed on and demonstrate the ability to safely go around in the landing configuration from final approach and from a bounced landing. However a go-around from a high prolonged hold off at close to stall speed, has its own risks; particularly with a low hour pre-solo student.
A go around in a full flap configuration at a very low airspeed can be very unforgiving unless yaw is immediately prevented as full power takes place. Nose attitude must adjusted appropriately. A poorly controlled yaw at slow speed in the landing configuration, if not prevented, can quickly lead to a full power incipient spin in the landing configuration. This can prove fatal at low altitude. Practice until competent is vital.
Under these conditions it is generally safer to land ahead by applying partial power, at the same time adjusting the nose attitude in order to "cushion" the bounce or high hold off; assuming adequate runway or landing area is still available.
It is up to the instructor to first demonstrate these two manoeuvres to the student. In turn, before first solo, the student must demonstrate he is competent to carry out both types recoveries competently and safely.
On the same subject the following advice is published in the Boeing 737 Flight Crew Training Manual under the heading of Bounced Landing recovery.
Quote:
"If the airplane should bounce, hold or re-establish a normal landing attitude and add thrust as necessary to control the rate of decent. When a high hard bounce occurs, initiate a go-around. Apply go-around thrust and use normal go-around procedures." Unquote.
In other words, not much basic difference really, between what is taught in a Cessna and a 737, n'est ce pas?
Last edited by Tee Emm; 18th Feb 2016 at 13:21.