LAPL(A) to PPL(A)
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LAPL(A) to PPL(A)
Recently had a student upgrade from an LAPL to a PPL, as he was going to work/live abroad for a few years and wanted an ICAO compliant licence recognised by his new country of residence.
So we did the required flying as specified in CAP804:
Then completed his application as described here:
From the CAA website:
Initial application for a PPL(A) Licence
How to apply
He got an email from them today, saying they wouldn't process his application for two reasons.
1) He hadn't submitted his actual flying logbook for assessment. I thought that was the point of the course completion certificate, so the application could all be online, without having to send stuff in the post?
2) He hadn't sent them his LAPL. Which is apparently important as an individual cannot hold 2 EASA licences for the same class of aircraft. I knew this, but do they actually need to shred it or something themselves? What is he meant to use to go flying with in meantime, while they sit on it for the three or so weeks it seems to take them to process stuff.
Anybody else done this and been asked to send stuff, or have I missed the requirement to do so somewhere?
So we did the required flying as specified in CAP804:
FCL.210.A PPL(A) — Experience requirements and crediting
(b) Specific requirements for applicants holding an LAPL(A). Applicants for a PPL (A) holding an LAPL(A) shall have completed at least 15 hours of flight time on aeroplanes after the issue of the LAPL (A), of which at least 10 shall be flight instruction completed in a training course at an ATO. This training course shall include at least 4 hours of supervised solo flight time, including at least 2 hours of solo cross-country flight time with at least 1 cross-country flight of at least 270 km (150 NM), during which full stop landings at 2 aerodromes different from
(b) Specific requirements for applicants holding an LAPL(A). Applicants for a PPL (A) holding an LAPL(A) shall have completed at least 15 hours of flight time on aeroplanes after the issue of the LAPL (A), of which at least 10 shall be flight instruction completed in a training course at an ATO. This training course shall include at least 4 hours of supervised solo flight time, including at least 2 hours of solo cross-country flight time with at least 1 cross-country flight of at least 270 km (150 NM), during which full stop landings at 2 aerodromes different from
From the CAA website:
Initial application for a PPL(A) Licence
How to apply
You will need to provide
A completed online application form for the grant of a Private Pilot Licence
The course completion certificate completed by the EASA Approved Training Organisation (ATO) attached to the online application form
Evidence of your passport or full European Driving licence, which must be a copy and certified by the Head of Training of an Approved Training Organisation (ATO) or a UK Examiner
A copy of the Examiners Report form
Evidence of a valid Language Proficiency (LP) issued by an UK authorised examiner or UK CAA approved assessment centre. This is only required for a Flight Radio Telephony Operators Licence (FRTOL) or for Instrument Rating (IR).
A completed online application form for the grant of a Private Pilot Licence
The course completion certificate completed by the EASA Approved Training Organisation (ATO) attached to the online application form
Evidence of your passport or full European Driving licence, which must be a copy and certified by the Head of Training of an Approved Training Organisation (ATO) or a UK Examiner
A copy of the Examiners Report form
Evidence of a valid Language Proficiency (LP) issued by an UK authorised examiner or UK CAA approved assessment centre. This is only required for a Flight Radio Telephony Operators Licence (FRTOL) or for Instrument Rating (IR).
1) He hadn't submitted his actual flying logbook for assessment. I thought that was the point of the course completion certificate, so the application could all be online, without having to send stuff in the post?
2) He hadn't sent them his LAPL. Which is apparently important as an individual cannot hold 2 EASA licences for the same class of aircraft. I knew this, but do they actually need to shred it or something themselves? What is he meant to use to go flying with in meantime, while they sit on it for the three or so weeks it seems to take them to process stuff.
Anybody else done this and been asked to send stuff, or have I missed the requirement to do so somewhere?
I have seen the same thing with regard to re-issue of FRTOLs. The CAA clearly stated that log books were no longer required and then started to reject applications with no log book. Either someone jumped the gun re log books; they changed their mind; or one hand simply doesnn't know what the other is doing. Requests for clarification have so far drawn no response.
They cannot issue an EASA licence if you already have one so asking for the one you are converting is not a great surprise.
Having dismantled the old CAA it seems nobody has any idea on how to reassemble it!
They cannot issue an EASA licence if you already have one so asking for the one you are converting is not a great surprise.
Having dismantled the old CAA it seems nobody has any idea on how to reassemble it!
I think the previous licence just becomes invalid
(4) Subject to article 228:
(a) a licence granted under this article remains in force for the period indicated in the licence, not exceeding the period specified for a licence of that class in Part A of Schedule 7;
(b) if no period is indicated in the licence, it remains in force for the lifetime of the holder.
(a) a licence granted under this article remains in force for the period indicated in the licence, not exceeding the period specified for a licence of that class in Part A of Schedule 7;
(b) if no period is indicated in the licence, it remains in force for the lifetime of the holder.
Article 228(3) The holder or any person having the possession or custody of any certificate, licence, approval, permission, exemption or other document which has been revoked, suspended or varied under this Order must surrender it to the CAA within a reasonable time after being required to do so by the CAA.
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Although I agree that Whopity's legal interpretation is correct, I wonder whether the actual reason for requiring the LAPL returned is more mundane:
Application for a PPL based on being the holder of an LAPL and having completed the required 'upgrade' requirements.
The CAA need to see the LAPL (or at least a certified copy of it) to ensure the applicant does indeed hold one - they cannot rely on their own records !!!.
Of course, if that is the case, then SRG1105A Guidance Notes need to be amended to state that all existing Licences held that are being used as the basis for an exemption to a full 45hr PPL course should be sent in (not just 3rd Country ICAO Licences)
Application for a PPL based on being the holder of an LAPL and having completed the required 'upgrade' requirements.
The CAA need to see the LAPL (or at least a certified copy of it) to ensure the applicant does indeed hold one - they cannot rely on their own records !!!.
Of course, if that is the case, then SRG1105A Guidance Notes need to be amended to state that all existing Licences held that are being used as the basis for an exemption to a full 45hr PPL course should be sent in (not just 3rd Country ICAO Licences)
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So, from Whopity's and LA's posts above, the CAA could revoke the LAPL and have the holder surrender it to them within a reasonable time, that would be better than surrender the LAPL with application, which I hear are taking an appalling 46 days to process at the moment! 
When they issue the PPL they'd have to email the holder and inform them their LAPL is invalid and not to fly until they receive and sign the PPL. Which should only be a day or so, rather than weeks.
Wonder what they do with professional licence holders changing from EASA CPL to EASA ATPL? Do they have to cease flying between application and receipt!
Why on earth would they need the actual or certified copy of the LAPL? They issued it less than 6 months ago! Are they really that incompetent?
they must know he has one, I can understand why if it was a pre JAA PPL, or NPPL or class rating, that they may not have records of, but FFS! A few months old LAPL, I don't want to believe CAA licensing are that useless.
LA, that is my exact point, if they insist that they want existing licences and logbooks sent, then fair enough, but say so! Either on the form, or guidance notes. It's not that hard is it. Not in some snotty toned email from FCLweb, that implies we've done something wrong.
When they issue the PPL they'd have to email the holder and inform them their LAPL is invalid and not to fly until they receive and sign the PPL. Which should only be a day or so, rather than weeks.
Wonder what they do with professional licence holders changing from EASA CPL to EASA ATPL? Do they have to cease flying between application and receipt!
Why on earth would they need the actual or certified copy of the LAPL? They issued it less than 6 months ago! Are they really that incompetent?
they must know he has one, I can understand why if it was a pre JAA PPL, or NPPL or class rating, that they may not have records of, but FFS! A few months old LAPL, I don't want to believe CAA licensing are that useless.LA, that is my exact point, if they insist that they want existing licences and logbooks sent, then fair enough, but say so! Either on the form, or guidance notes. It's not that hard is it. Not in some snotty toned email from FCLweb, that implies we've done something wrong.
Last edited by mrmum; 30th Jun 2015 at 20:09. Reason: Correct a missed Predictive text error
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Are FCL up to the job?
Further to this issue, the people at Gatwick have so far refused to answer, reply to, or even acknowledge the subsequent emails we have sent them.
One a week for the last 3 weeks, or thereabouts. I would say that was disappointing, but that would imply I expected anything better
It seems that if you ask them a "difficult" or "interesting" question, where they can't just quote an EASA reference for you to go and read, they just ignore it.
I think it's especially bad if you've half an idea about it yourself and quote their own website/CAP/EASA at them. You just get put in the naughty/troublesome pile and ignored.
It's a shocking way to treat your customers, never mind the alleged campaign to get rid of gold-plating, here they are wanting much more than their own procedures say is required.
One a week for the last 3 weeks, or thereabouts. I would say that was disappointing, but that would imply I expected anything better
It seems that if you ask them a "difficult" or "interesting" question, where they can't just quote an EASA reference for you to go and read, they just ignore it.
I think it's especially bad if you've half an idea about it yourself and quote their own website/CAP/EASA at them. You just get put in the naughty/troublesome pile and ignored.
It's a shocking way to treat your customers, never mind the alleged campaign to get rid of gold-plating, here they are wanting much more than their own procedures say is required.
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(In)Consistencies
We did another LAPL to PPL upgrade about a week or so after the one above, I'd been wondering what was happening to that application. Got email about it today, tone was less snotty and from a different licensing officer, but they still wanted the LAPL surrendered, however this time no need for the logbook! Interestingly, they chose to call their email a clarification of the requirements! But still, if you look at the "what must be submitted" list on the CAA website, not a mention of either.
However, that's two applications that fully comply with the CAA published requirements, which they won't process, but for different reasons. They can't even keep their made up rules the same.
Interestingly, they chose to call their email a clarification of the requirements! But still, if you look at the "what must be submitted" list on the CAA website, not a mention of either.However, that's two applications that fully comply with the CAA published requirements, which they won't process, but for different reasons. They can't even keep their made up rules the same.
I also just had a LAPL-PPL application refused because the Applicant didn't send in his LAPL with the application.
He did an online application, and attached scans of:
Skills Test report form,
Course Completion Certificate,
Passport.
No request for the Logbook, though.
It does seem ridiculous that they can't just send a letter with the new Licence stating that as soon as the new Licence is signed by the Holder,(it's not valid until then) the old one becomes invalid, and must be returned within 14 days.
It also seems inconsistent if a CPL Holder can be sent an ATPL without sending his CPL back.
Fortunately, this applicant also has an NPPL that he can use in the meantime.
MJ
He did an online application, and attached scans of:
Skills Test report form,
Course Completion Certificate,
Passport.
No request for the Logbook, though.
It does seem ridiculous that they can't just send a letter with the new Licence stating that as soon as the new Licence is signed by the Holder,(it's not valid until then) the old one becomes invalid, and must be returned within 14 days.
It also seems inconsistent if a CPL Holder can be sent an ATPL without sending his CPL back.
Fortunately, this applicant also has an NPPL that he can use in the meantime.
MJ
Last edited by Mach Jump; 10th Aug 2015 at 22:37. Reason: Punctuation.
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So, after weeks of multiple ignored emails, my guy was forced to resort to the CAA formal complaint procedure, which on their website guarantees an initial response within 5 days and full resolution in 20 days.
It was acknowledged eventually with a "thank you for your submission......unfortunately, due to the high volume of complaints we are currently receiving......we may not meet our stated timescales"
UNBELIEVABLE!
Their response to justify their need to have the logbook, was to try and hide behind the right of the authority to ask to see any documents at any time. Well, that's fair enough, but in their initial email that's not what they said, it implied that they want to see logbooks for all licence applications and we should have known that.
In the end, they have accepted scanned and emailed, certified copies of the logbook pages and issued the PPL. Interestingly, they did that prior to surrender of the LAPL, but did request that the LAPL was sent back to them as soon as possible. That's probably down to the fact that someone reasonably senior ended up dealing with it because of the formal complaint.
But it shouldn't take all that to simply get a licence issued, the CAA just seem to be very inconsistent and not very competent of late.
I've just looked again now at the application form/process on the CAA website, it still doesn't say you need to send back your LAPL before getting a PPL.
It was acknowledged eventually with a "thank you for your submission......unfortunately, due to the high volume of complaints we are currently receiving......we may not meet our stated timescales"
UNBELIEVABLE!
Their response to justify their need to have the logbook, was to try and hide behind the right of the authority to ask to see any documents at any time. Well, that's fair enough, but in their initial email that's not what they said, it implied that they want to see logbooks for all licence applications and we should have known that.
In the end, they have accepted scanned and emailed, certified copies of the logbook pages and issued the PPL. Interestingly, they did that prior to surrender of the LAPL, but did request that the LAPL was sent back to them as soon as possible. That's probably down to the fact that someone reasonably senior ended up dealing with it because of the formal complaint.
But it shouldn't take all that to simply get a licence issued, the CAA just seem to be very inconsistent and not very competent of late.
I've just looked again now at the application form/process on the CAA website, it still doesn't say you need to send back your LAPL before getting a PPL.
And for all this the Chief Executive has received a 22% pay rise and a £60K+ bonus, maybe a letter to your MP might be in order as his masters clearly don't recognise the damage he has caused.
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What a disgraceful state of affairs and cementing my belief that the CAA, as a 'competent' authority, has not improved one bit in all the years that I have had to deal with them.
They would not last five minutes in the real business world.
They would not last five minutes in the real business world.
The problem is that the Chief Executive is insulated from all of the chaos that his minions are wreaking. A certain element of management ensures that he never hears any of the bad news and, I am told, he honestly believes that the CAA is doing a good job! Complaints might be more promptly and efficiently handled if copied to [email protected]
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Complaints might be more promptly and efficiently handled if copied to [email protected]
Still not had any response as to why a non-UK CAA examiner can no longer sign revalidation by experience....
I just went onto the CAA's website, and had a look at the links on the "about the CAA" page. They give a fair idea of the standards against which Andrew Haines is being measured...
Against that lot, in the mind of Dame Dierdre Hutton, his boss, he probably is doing a good job.
It is telling however that there's nothing there about serving the aviation industry.
G
Protecting the Consumer
Europe
International
Economic Regulation
Associated Organisations
Aviation Legislation
Regulatory Enforcement
Europe
International
Economic Regulation
Associated Organisations
Aviation Legislation
Regulatory Enforcement
It is telling however that there's nothing there about serving the aviation industry.
G
Or perhaps the Policy Team actually took its role a little more seriously
Ok.
Having returned his LAPL to the CAA,as requested, my LAPL-PPL Candidate has received a phone call from them informing him that they still cannot process his application, because we have used the wrong Course Completion Certificate(CCC)!
It seems that, having used the Online application process, we should have used the 'online CCC', rather than the SRG 1107 we scanned and emailed to them.
Just in case anyone is finding it difficult to find the 'online CCC', here it is:
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/2685/PPL%20Certificate.pdf (No form reference)
Rather ironically, The 'online CCC' can be neither filled in, or submitted online, but must be printed, filled in with a black pen, scanned, and emailed to the CAA.
A rather confusing feature of the 'online' form, is the requirement to state the date of the Flight Test, which undermines the very purpose of a CCC, in that it is supposed to be signed by the Head of Training before the Flight test can be carried out, but this one cannot be completed until after the Test.
This is not, in fact, a CCC as we understand it, at all, but a chunk of the old paper application form tagged onto the 'online' system, and put in an almost impossible to find link on the CAA website.
After decades of dealing with patronising condescending incompetence at SRG I am rapidly loosing the will to live.
Has anyone yet successfully completed the conversion of a LAPL to a PPL?
MJ
Having returned his LAPL to the CAA,as requested, my LAPL-PPL Candidate has received a phone call from them informing him that they still cannot process his application, because we have used the wrong Course Completion Certificate(CCC)!
It seems that, having used the Online application process, we should have used the 'online CCC', rather than the SRG 1107 we scanned and emailed to them.
Just in case anyone is finding it difficult to find the 'online CCC', here it is:
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/2685/PPL%20Certificate.pdf (No form reference)
Rather ironically, The 'online CCC' can be neither filled in, or submitted online, but must be printed, filled in with a black pen, scanned, and emailed to the CAA.
A rather confusing feature of the 'online' form, is the requirement to state the date of the Flight Test, which undermines the very purpose of a CCC, in that it is supposed to be signed by the Head of Training before the Flight test can be carried out, but this one cannot be completed until after the Test.
This is not, in fact, a CCC as we understand it, at all, but a chunk of the old paper application form tagged onto the 'online' system, and put in an almost impossible to find link on the CAA website.
After decades of dealing with patronising condescending incompetence at SRG I am rapidly loosing the will to live.
Has anyone yet successfully completed the conversion of a LAPL to a PPL?
MJ
Last edited by Mach Jump; 2nd Sep 2015 at 22:11.
