Negative report writing
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Negative report writing
I first soloed 32 years ago and have been flying professionally for 27 years. Recently I made the mistake of looking back over instructors flight reports. How depressing; many were quite negative. Even that preceding my solo was full of gripes. Could it really have been so bad? I soloed in 7h55 so couldn't have been a total duffer. Why did he let me? More recent simulator reports make equally depressing reading. As if every negative point has to be written up in close detail but none of the positives. I've never failed one but looking back at these makes me wonder why I've been allowed to fly a wide-bodied jet around the world. Which, I've done (touch wood) for a lot of years with no incidents or accidents, unlike some of the writers of the above reports. Is it just me or is there something in the instructor/trainer psyche which is geared to focus on the negative?
There is, in pretty much all instructors and examiners in any subject I think.
I try very hard to always include positive comments in student feedback, whether I'm teaching flying or marking university assignments. But it takes a really positive effort of will.
Here's a favourite I came across a few years ago:-
This was the school report in science, aged 15, for (later) Sir John Gurdon - eventually joint winner with Shinya Yamanaka of the 2012 Nobel Prize for Physiology or Medicine for showing how to turn mature cells into stem cells. As a result of this poor report he was made to drop school science at 15.
I could show you no end of criticism from my degree and test pilot school courses, in fields I later won international awards in.
There is another way of looking at it - if people STOP criticising you, they think you've lost the capacity to improve. THAT is the point to get really worried.
We should accentuate the positive as well, if only to keep people's morale up. But the attitude that criticism is only presented because people believe that we can use and learn from it is the only one that works.
G
I try very hard to always include positive comments in student feedback, whether I'm teaching flying or marking university assignments. But it takes a really positive effort of will.
Here's a favourite I came across a few years ago:-
This was the school report in science, aged 15, for (later) Sir John Gurdon - eventually joint winner with Shinya Yamanaka of the 2012 Nobel Prize for Physiology or Medicine for showing how to turn mature cells into stem cells. As a result of this poor report he was made to drop school science at 15.
I could show you no end of criticism from my degree and test pilot school courses, in fields I later won international awards in.
There is another way of looking at it - if people STOP criticising you, they think you've lost the capacity to improve. THAT is the point to get really worried.
We should accentuate the positive as well, if only to keep people's morale up. But the attitude that criticism is only presented because people believe that we can use and learn from it is the only one that works.
G
That being said I do think good trainers provide positive verbal feedback while training/testing as a way to reduce stress and provide a more positive teaching environment.
There is also a difference between "fun" flying like training for a PPL where you want to encourage people and Professional flying.
When flying with a PPL student I try to keep the mood light and provide lots of encouragement, although I will accurately reflect weak areas in the written pilot training record.
When flying with a flight instructor student it is a whole different atmosphere. This is the "show" and I expect perfection. I will be extremely demanding and expect them to work very hard to meet my skill and knowledge requirements. When they don't they will get immediate feedback as to why I am unhappy and what they need to do to improve.
If they need a lot of hand holding and feel good feedback then IMO they are not cut out to be instructors.
Best flight test I ever had was as an PF for a prof check in one of the larger T prop airliners. The examiner never said a word until we shut down at the end of the ride, when he said " Good Ride ". My flight test report had no comments on it negative or otherwise, just a high numerical score for each exercise. That is what you want to see
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Excuseth me, I am neither an flight-instructor nor pilot.
But I've to say that there is "talent" or not. I did some racecar-driving where the observer (not instructor) just said: ok, just do it.
Given, it's easier at FL0 - but then I had pilots as SLF in my car, puking over possible G-forces on FL0
OTOH I was SLF for those very pilots and they told me "ok, now show me your 'sensitivty' at the yoke" - did as told, and
the only response was "height not 100%, but hell, you never flew before?"
Plain number-hours-of-training doesn't mean ****. A tad of talent is needed.
But I've to say that there is "talent" or not. I did some racecar-driving where the observer (not instructor) just said: ok, just do it.
Given, it's easier at FL0 - but then I had pilots as SLF in my car, puking over possible G-forces on FL0
OTOH I was SLF for those very pilots and they told me "ok, now show me your 'sensitivty' at the yoke" - did as told, andthe only response was "height not 100%, but hell, you never flew before?"
Plain number-hours-of-training doesn't mean ****. A tad of talent is needed.
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That's an interesting and revealing statement, Big Pistons. Perhaps I muddied the waters by mixing in my initial solo training with proficiency reports as a professional pilot. Clearly a professional in any field is required to cut the mustard. But "there's no value in documenting things you're already good at..." Really? Your words certainly back up my own impression of how things are. But is this really how it ought to be? Let's not confuse this with a training debrief; surely a proficiency report should be just that, a reasoned account of the good and bad. Those reports may be referred to many years later by people who aren't instructors, or even pilots and major career decisions based upon them. Is there any other walk of life where quite minor failings are kept on file forever but one's strengths are not even recorded?
I tend to disagree with both BPF and PAX.
Talent, in most fields, is massively overrated. It may make the difference between being world class and world leading if you've trained for years, or useless and mediocre if you've just started, but for most people it's out effort and dedication to becoming good at something that really makes the difference. I think I have two natural talents - annoying people, and working hard. The first I've tried to temper, the second is the only one that's ever really made much difference to my life. I was a mediocre engineering student - and now have a PhD and various awards and books to my name, and I was a mediocre student pilot - and now have a CPL and assorted ratings, with 400 flight test hours. It was wanting something enough, and working hard enough, that got me to something that could be labelled "success".
Coaching an established professional - yes, they know where they're good and bad, and need feedback on the stuff they want to improve above all else. All fine and dandy. But when most people are learning - doesn't matter what, whether it's flying or Jiu Jitsu, they need positive re-inforcement. Not just for motivation (although that matters, and let's remember boys and girls - those students pay our wages, so we'd like them to keep coming back for more), but because if you don't tell people what they're doing right - how do they know to keep doing it that way?
So no, I don't agree with BPF that only negative feedback matters. The majority of students, most of the time, need positive re-inforcement of their good flying, AS WELL AS correction of their faults.
But, realistically, most adult teaching environments have these faults - not just flying.
G
Talent, in most fields, is massively overrated. It may make the difference between being world class and world leading if you've trained for years, or useless and mediocre if you've just started, but for most people it's out effort and dedication to becoming good at something that really makes the difference. I think I have two natural talents - annoying people, and working hard. The first I've tried to temper, the second is the only one that's ever really made much difference to my life. I was a mediocre engineering student - and now have a PhD and various awards and books to my name, and I was a mediocre student pilot - and now have a CPL and assorted ratings, with 400 flight test hours. It was wanting something enough, and working hard enough, that got me to something that could be labelled "success".
Coaching an established professional - yes, they know where they're good and bad, and need feedback on the stuff they want to improve above all else. All fine and dandy. But when most people are learning - doesn't matter what, whether it's flying or Jiu Jitsu, they need positive re-inforcement. Not just for motivation (although that matters, and let's remember boys and girls - those students pay our wages, so we'd like them to keep coming back for more), but because if you don't tell people what they're doing right - how do they know to keep doing it that way?
So no, I don't agree with BPF that only negative feedback matters. The majority of students, most of the time, need positive re-inforcement of their good flying, AS WELL AS correction of their faults.
But, realistically, most adult teaching environments have these faults - not just flying.
G
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Positive Reinforcement
Totally agree with Ghengis.
I teach in a University as well as doing a wee bit of flight instruction. I am also a trained assessor in the Corporate world.
Learning theory tells us that Students do better at subjects that they enjoy in any discipline. Communication theory tells us that much verbal feedback is lost to background noise, misinterpretation and short term memory.
Therefore written dox, read in the cold light of day, should, in my opinion, contain more positives than negatives.
I teach in a University as well as doing a wee bit of flight instruction. I am also a trained assessor in the Corporate world.
Learning theory tells us that Students do better at subjects that they enjoy in any discipline. Communication theory tells us that much verbal feedback is lost to background noise, misinterpretation and short term memory.
Therefore written dox, read in the cold light of day, should, in my opinion, contain more positives than negatives.
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There are creators and destroyers. Which one do you think is happier? Who are they comparing the students performance to? Themselves?
Don't they remember when they started learning? Short memories.
Work on peoples good points but mention where improvement can be made, if you want then to succeed. Basic psychology and people handling skills. We all like a pat on the back now and again!
Don't they remember when they started learning? Short memories.
Work on peoples good points but mention where improvement can be made, if you want then to succeed. Basic psychology and people handling skills. We all like a pat on the back now and again!
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Creators and destroyers, yes. I agree with both the above posts but confess my aim was largely directed at airline recurrent "training" which is, in reality, only about 20% training and the rest testing. In this context I've no problem with an instructor giving a rough ride to a professional pilot who shows up unprepared. But the negativity bias can promote wrong qualities; operating to avoid criticism rather than as well as possible.
A sim ride last year involved a complex series of drills following an engine failure then an electrical one, a missed approach then a diversion because of the airport closing. We handled it well but my sim partner forgot a secondary check which I spotted, and rapidly carried it out before landing. One valve in our air bleed system which would have had minimal or no effect on the flight was left in the wrong position. That valve was the only thing mentioned in our report. And had I "not noticed" the check hadn't been called for there could have been no criticism. Next time what would I do?
A sim ride last year involved a complex series of drills following an engine failure then an electrical one, a missed approach then a diversion because of the airport closing. We handled it well but my sim partner forgot a secondary check which I spotted, and rapidly carried it out before landing. One valve in our air bleed system which would have had minimal or no effect on the flight was left in the wrong position. That valve was the only thing mentioned in our report. And had I "not noticed" the check hadn't been called for there could have been no criticism. Next time what would I do?
We use a 1 to 4 marking scale. If I say give you a 4 on your ILS, do I really have to write a comment like "very well flown flown ILS" ? That does not mean a positive verbal comment at the time is not warranted, just that your numerical scores are going to tell the story of your ride in the historical documents, and I fail to see the need to elaborate.
Get a 2 however and there had better be an explanation so the next examiner is going to know what to look for, and if the same mistake is still there than things are not all right and action needs to be taken.
The Colgan Dash 8 crash is a case study in what happens when repeated poor performance is not captured and dealt with by the check organization
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I heard of a case where an Instructor was sued for defamation by a Student for something that was written in a report! I dont know what was written but a School I instructed at now requires that the Student reads the Instructors report and signs it to prevent litigation!
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Frankly, BPF, if I was a chief pilot deciding who to promote, I'd like to see the reasons for the high scores as well as the low ones. That also helps manage the well known problem that Instructor A's score of 2 doesn't necessarily match that of Instructor B
Are you asking, 1968 that such reports be subject to legal privilege?
Are you asking, 1968 that such reports be subject to legal privilege?
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I find it difficult to write positive comments. I'm not an instructor by the way but I do write school reports. The students who are doing well usually get something like 'John has had an excellent year. He has an admirable work ethos and his enthusiasm for the subject shines through.'
The duffers on the other hand get at least a page of A4. What do you write about someone who has no problem with a subject and enjoys it? I always feel like I'm short changing both student and parents but there you go.
Edit: Of course you're not allowed to write anything really critical, you have to do the good/bad/good sandwich.
I still have all of my school reports from the sixties, report writing then was the refined art of making a student squirm under the attack of a short sentence. My favourite was the one I had for maths in my first year at Grammar. One word, 'Abysmal.' In later life I studied astrophysics...
The duffers on the other hand get at least a page of A4. What do you write about someone who has no problem with a subject and enjoys it? I always feel like I'm short changing both student and parents but there you go.
Edit: Of course you're not allowed to write anything really critical, you have to do the good/bad/good sandwich.
I still have all of my school reports from the sixties, report writing then was the refined art of making a student squirm under the attack of a short sentence. My favourite was the one I had for maths in my first year at Grammar. One word, 'Abysmal.' In later life I studied astrophysics...
Last edited by thing; 12th Apr 2015 at 14:40.
When I did my CPL course we were encouraged to read our instructor's reports.
On one report my (superb) instructor wrote: "...he needs to do his checks less like Eric Morecambe ".
Puzzled I asked my instructor what he meant - he referred me to the Morecambe and Wise / Andre Previn sketch were Eric holds Previn by the lapels and states "I was playing all the right notes but not necessarily in the right order"
Safe flying
On one report my (superb) instructor wrote: "...he needs to do his checks less like Eric Morecambe ".
Puzzled I asked my instructor what he meant - he referred me to the Morecambe and Wise / Andre Previn sketch were Eric holds Previn by the lapels and states "I was playing all the right notes but not necessarily in the right order"
Safe flying
I find it difficult to write positive comments. I'm not an instructor by the way but I do write school reports. The students who are doing well usually get something like 'John has had an excellent year. He has an admirable work ethos and his enthusiasm for the subject shines through.'
The duffers on the other hand get at least a page of A4. What do you write about someone who has no problem with a subject and enjoys it? I always feel like I'm short changing both student and parents but there you go.
Edit: Of course you're not allowed to write anything really critical, you have to do the good/bad/good sandwich.
I still have all of my school reports from the sixties, report writing them was the refined art of making a student squirm under the attack of a short sentence. My favourite was the one I had for maths in my first year at Grammar. One word, 'Abysmal.' In later life I studied astrophysics...
The duffers on the other hand get at least a page of A4. What do you write about someone who has no problem with a subject and enjoys it? I always feel like I'm short changing both student and parents but there you go.
Edit: Of course you're not allowed to write anything really critical, you have to do the good/bad/good sandwich.
I still have all of my school reports from the sixties, report writing them was the refined art of making a student squirm under the attack of a short sentence. My favourite was the one I had for maths in my first year at Grammar. One word, 'Abysmal.' In later life I studied astrophysics...
I find the toughest to give meaningful feedback those which are "okay". Excellent assignments you can talk about what makes them so good, and those with significant deficiencies there's plenty to get my teeth into. But anything between A- and C+, I always find it a struggle to say much when performance is neither particularly good or particularly bad.
G
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There's a difference though between a yearly report and an exam/assignment assessment. I used to do some external examining and could wax lyrical about a top candidate. I do find it difficult though when you look at a student and have to say 'This student is excellent' and then find 73 ways to say the same thing to fill a page.
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Totally agree with Genghis, especially r.e. talent versus effort.
In my experience talent gives an existing edge - but edges can always be sharpened from the bluntest of subjects with hard work.
The only exceptions are when you're made of an unsuitable material for the job. I may as well be made of sand when it comes to sport.
Naturally, however, the finest samurai steel in the case of flying
Capn
In my experience talent gives an existing edge - but edges can always be sharpened from the bluntest of subjects with hard work.
The only exceptions are when you're made of an unsuitable material for the job. I may as well be made of sand when it comes to sport.
Naturally, however, the finest samurai steel in the case of flying
Capn
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Not sure about this one. I think that Gheng and Bug Smasher are correct when it comes to motor skills and academia but I think it falls short where artistic endeavour is concerned. Yes you can teach someone perspective as an artist or teach someone how to play scales as a musician but there is definitely an 'unlearnable' bit when it comes to artistic pursuits. All of the top musicians have undoubtedly put in the hours of practise and sweat, but so do a lot of other musicians who never get within artillery distance of the top guys. There's something else that you need. Would you call it natural talent or aptitude? Difficult one and something that my colleagues and I often discuss.
Personally at the moment I tend to lean towards the nurture argument. If you are exposed from birth to good music or any other category of the arts and are encouraged by parents and siblings who share that interest then you have a head start.
Personally at the moment I tend to lean towards the nurture argument. If you are exposed from birth to good music or any other category of the arts and are encouraged by parents and siblings who share that interest then you have a head start.
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At ppl level the student written record needs mostly to record what needs more work, with a bit of comment about successes. The main purpose of it is so that next session you can remember what the heck you need to do with the student. Inevitably it may read as rather negative when reviewed later.
The verbal de-brief is another matter and should be much more of a two way discussion of what went well, and why, as well as what needs more work. Really important to show the student that they are making progress all the time, even when it doesn't feel like it. Yes, they pay our wages.
I treasure one of my school report entries - 4th Form History - "Heston has been getting a little eccentric this term." I've tried to live up to that ever since
The verbal de-brief is another matter and should be much more of a two way discussion of what went well, and why, as well as what needs more work. Really important to show the student that they are making progress all the time, even when it doesn't feel like it. Yes, they pay our wages.
I treasure one of my school report entries - 4th Form History - "Heston has been getting a little eccentric this term." I've tried to live up to that ever since