FI(R) IRI course
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FI(R) IRI course
A FI may undertake the IRI course and teach for the IR rating provided he has logged 200 hours under IFR.
My understanding is that there is no need for a FI to be unrestricted to teach for the IR rating.
Am I right?
My understanding is that there is no need for a FI to be unrestricted to teach for the IR rating.
Am I right?
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No one else seems to want to answer so:
No. You are wrong.
An FI with Restricted privileges may only teach for the above (provided they are appropriately qualified) at an ATO and under the supervision of a nominated FI.
No mention of teaching for an IR, therefore an FI(R) cannot; and, therefore, I very much doubt that any ATO would accept an FI(R) on to a course to gain a "privilege that may become valid later" after their restriction is lifted.
NB: I know that some people have suggested that an FI(R) may teach for anything (provided they are appropriately qualified) with the above only being a list of the types of "Instruction that must be supervised"
Good Luck if you rely on that interpretation !
Am I right?
FCL.910.FI FI — Restricted privileges
(a) An FI shall have his/her privileges limited to conducting flight instruction under the supervision of an FI for the same category of aircraft nominated by the ATO for this purpose, in the following cases:
(1) for the issue of the PPL, SPL, BPL and LAPL;
(2) in all integrated courses at PPL level, in case of aeroplanes and helicopters;
(3) for class and type ratings for single-pilot, single-engine aircraft, class and group extensions in the case of balloons and class extensions in the case of sailplanes;
(4) for the night, towing or aerobatic ratings.
(a) An FI shall have his/her privileges limited to conducting flight instruction under the supervision of an FI for the same category of aircraft nominated by the ATO for this purpose, in the following cases:
(1) for the issue of the PPL, SPL, BPL and LAPL;
(2) in all integrated courses at PPL level, in case of aeroplanes and helicopters;
(3) for class and type ratings for single-pilot, single-engine aircraft, class and group extensions in the case of balloons and class extensions in the case of sailplanes;
(4) for the night, towing or aerobatic ratings.
No mention of teaching for an IR, therefore an FI(R) cannot; and, therefore, I very much doubt that any ATO would accept an FI(R) on to a course to gain a "privilege that may become valid later" after their restriction is lifted.
NB: I know that some people have suggested that an FI(R) may teach for anything (provided they are appropriately qualified) with the above only being a list of the types of "Instruction that must be supervised"
Good Luck if you rely on that interpretation !
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@Level Attitude: Billie Bob and I agree.
FCL.910.FI FI Says that the FI is restricted in certain cases, and teaching for the IR is not one of them. So maybe a FI restricted may not teach for the IR, but it's not what FCL.910.FI says.
The FCL says
FCL.905.FI FI—Privileges and conditions
The privileges of an FI are to conduct flight instruction for the issue, revalidation or renewal of:
(...)
(g) an IR in the appropriate aircraft category, provided that the FI has:
(1) at least 200 hours of flight time under IFR, of which up to 50 hours may be instrument ground time in an FFS, an FTD 2/3 or FNPT II;
(2) completed as a student pilot the IRI training course and has passed an assessment of competence for the IRI certificate;
I could find no other prerequisite for the IRI course than 200 hours IFR if you are a FI or 800 hours IFR if your are not.
My conclusion is that, unless someone finds something I could not find by myself in the regulation, a FI restricted with 200 hours IFR may undertake the IRI course and teach for the IR if he/she passes the assessment of competence.
FCL.910.FI FI Says that the FI is restricted in certain cases, and teaching for the IR is not one of them. So maybe a FI restricted may not teach for the IR, but it's not what FCL.910.FI says.
The FCL says
FCL.905.FI FI—Privileges and conditions
The privileges of an FI are to conduct flight instruction for the issue, revalidation or renewal of:
(...)
(g) an IR in the appropriate aircraft category, provided that the FI has:
(1) at least 200 hours of flight time under IFR, of which up to 50 hours may be instrument ground time in an FFS, an FTD 2/3 or FNPT II;
(2) completed as a student pilot the IRI training course and has passed an assessment of competence for the IRI certificate;
I could find no other prerequisite for the IRI course than 200 hours IFR if you are a FI or 800 hours IFR if your are not.
My conclusion is that, unless someone finds something I could not find by myself in the regulation, a FI restricted with 200 hours IFR may undertake the IRI course and teach for the IR if he/she passes the assessment of competence.
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You paraphrase this way:
and I would paraphrase like this:
For the want of a comma a disagreement ensues.........and we all know how well written Part-FCL is !!!
And I say again: "Good Luck if you rely on that interpretation !"
Please let us know of any ATO that accepts an FI(R) on to their course to learn how to Instruct for an IR.
Please let us know of any Competent Authority who has granted the Privilege to Instruct for an IR to an FI(R).
In the UK the CAA require that an FI is not restricted in order to teach for the IMC Rating - I cannot see them allowing an FI(R) to Instruct for an IR ( or even an IR(R) ), but not an IMCR.
An FI shall have his/her privileges limited .....in the following cases:
An FI shall have his/her privileges limited to conducting flight instruction ....in the following cases:
My conclusion is that, unless someone finds something I could not find by myself in the regulation, a FI restricted with 200 hours IFR may undertake the IRI course and teach for the IR if he/she passes the assessment of competence.
Please let us know of any ATO that accepts an FI(R) on to their course to learn how to Instruct for an IR.
Please let us know of any Competent Authority who has granted the Privilege to Instruct for an IR to an FI(R).
In the UK the CAA require that an FI is not restricted in order to teach for the IMC Rating - I cannot see them allowing an FI(R) to Instruct for an IR ( or even an IR(R) ), but not an IMCR.
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I have an Instrutor with a restricted FI who did the IRI course. He has it as a standalone rating along with a CRI however he required the 800hrs IFR not the 200hrs which as a current commercial pilot was not an issue.
The CAA were adamant that they could not issue it using the FI requirements as he is restricted.
The CAA were adamant that they could not issue it using the FI requirements as he is restricted.
To teach for an IR you have to have the IRI qualification, that has nothing to do with being an FI(R). The only question is whether you can complete this qualification on the basis of 200 hours under IFR or 800. Under the JAA is was always considered that 800 was necessary, but I can find nothing specified in Part FCL that requires you to have 800 hours if you are an FI. An FI(R) is an FI and it is not one of the limitations stated in FCL.910.FI FI — Restricted privileges.
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Have to say that I agree with Whopity on this one. Under JAR-FCL you were required to be a unrestricted FI to remove the 'no applied instrument' instruction restriction last stated in LASORS 2010 H1.4. However, under EASA this no longer applies.
As Whopity says, it's not listed under the restricted privileges in FCL.910.FI.
ifitaint...
As Whopity says, it's not listed under the restricted privileges in FCL.910.FI.
ifitaint...
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Originally Posted by Level Attitude
You paraphrase this way:
and I would paraphrase like this:
An FI shall have his/her privileges limited .....in the following cases:
An FI shall have his/her privileges limited to conducting flight instruction ....in the following cases:
Another point in the favour of my understanding:
FCL.905.FI FI—Privileges and conditions
The privileges of an FI are to conduct flight instruction for the issue, revalidation or renewal of:
(a) a PPL, SPL, BPL and LAPL in the appropriate aircraft category;
(...)
(e) the night rating, provided that the FI:
(1) is qualified to fly at night in the appropriate aircraft category;
(2) has demonstrated the ability to instruct at night to an FI qualified in accordance with (i) below; and
(3) complies with the night experience requirement of FCL.060(b)(2);
(...)
(g) an IR in the appropriate aircraft category, provided that the FI has: etc.
You certainly agree that a FI restricted may instruct for the night rating. The night rating is not treated differently than the IRI in the FCL. It's not written that the FI may be restricted to instruct for the night rating, nor is it written that the FI may be restricted to instruct for the IR, because IR and night are not in the FCL.910.FI list of restrictions.
Last edited by 172510; 24th Sep 2014 at 19:58.
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I would agree with you if the FCL wording was "An FI shall have his/her privileges limited .....to the following cases:" but the preposition used is in not to
An FI shall have his/her privileges limited to conducting flight instruction ....in the following cases:
Another point in the favour of my understanding: ......It's not written that the FI may be restricted to instruct for the night rating......
FCL905 Lists the Privileges that nay be attached to an FI Rating and includes both Night (e) and IR (g).
FCL.910 Lists the limited Privileges that an FI(R) can exercise. IR is not mentioned, but Night (4) is.
Which doesn't change the debate at all as it still requires an interpretation of what being included (or excluded) from the list in FCL.910 actually means.
It does not matter whether we agree or disagree. No Privilege can be exercised until it has been entered on to a Licence, so it is solely the interpretation of a Competent Authority that counts.
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To teach for an IR you have to have the IRI qualification, that has nothing to do with being an FI(R).
To teach for an IR someone would either have to have an IRI or have Privilege (g) added to their FI (or both).
Without 800 hours IFR an IRI is not possible, so the question remains: Would any Competent Authority grant Privilege (g) to an FI with Restricted Privileges?
I think not ......... but happy to be proved wrong
FCL905 Lists the Privileges that may be attached to an FI Rating and includes both Night (e) and IR (g).
FCL.910.FI FI — Restricted privileges
(a) An FI shall have his/her privileges limited to conducting flight instruction under the supervision of an FI for the same category of aircraft nominated by the ATO for this purpose, in the following cases:
(a) An FI shall have his/her privileges limited to conducting flight instruction under the supervision of an FI for the same category of aircraft nominated by the ATO for this purpose, in the following cases:
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Somebody suggested to me that the 200hr IFR experience requirement for the removal of applied instruments instruction was set to change again in the near future, has anybody else heard anything similar? I have found nothing to support this.
I would also welcome any helpful suggestions on how people build their IFR time. As a PPL instructor I am clocking up plenty of hours VFR but get little time (or money) to do much flying for myself. I am trying to fly every couple of weeks with a safety pilot under the hood, but its going to be a very long road to 200hrs...
I would also welcome any helpful suggestions on how people build their IFR time. As a PPL instructor I am clocking up plenty of hours VFR but get little time (or money) to do much flying for myself. I am trying to fly every couple of weeks with a safety pilot under the hood, but its going to be a very long road to 200hrs...
Last edited by gnome11; 1st Oct 2014 at 15:38.
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I am trying to fly every couple of weeks with a safety pilot under the hood, but its going to be a very long road to 200hrs...
As a PPL Instructor you really ought to know the difference: A PPL course requires no IFR time but it does require a small element of IF flight.
If you hold an IMCR, IR(R) or IR yourself then just go and fly IFR.
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yes granted - I understand the difference between IMC and IFR but I don't think practising IMC flying is a waste of time...
I don't currently fly much other than instructing so I try and get as much out of those flights as I can.
I don't currently fly much other than instructing so I try and get as much out of those flights as I can.
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I understand the difference between IMC and IFR but I don't think practising IMC flying is a waste of time...
IFR time, which is what you have said you want, can be gained in either VMC (optional) or IMC (mandatory).
"Under the hood", as you say, is a great way to practice and maintain your IF flying skills - but is nothing to do with VFR/IFR or IMC/VMC.
but its going to be a very long road to 200hrs
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I would also welcome any helpful suggestions on how people build their IFR time. As a PPL instructor I am clocking up plenty of hours VFR but get little time (or money) to do much flying for myself. I am trying to fly every couple of weeks with a safety pilot under the hood, but its going to be a very long road to 200hrs...
HW
Assuming this is allowed, it seems to me to be a significant bending of the rules at the very least and dilutes the valuable experience that the FI would otherwise have acquired by flying procedures and approaches under genuine IFR time