FI(R) IRI course

[Happy Wanderer]

Whopity,

Then the law is an ass!

HW

[Level Attitude]

quite legitimately log a large percentage of their student's PPL training exercises as flight time under IFR by flying (amongst other things)

Since a PPL Student is training for a VFR only qualification I cannot see that they should (or could) Log any of their training flights as IFR.

The aircraft either flew IFR or VFR so the Instructor could only legitimately log the same rules as their student.

As mentioned in a previous Thread, I believe the only IFR flying that is permissible in PPL training is that short period to cross IMC (ie climbing above a cloud layer) in order to achieve the best VMC possible for the planned exercise.

[BillieBob]

But if those hours under the hood are also following IFR then it can be logged IFR whilst practicing instrument flying - correct?

Provided that you hold an instrument rating and are flying in accordance with the instrument flight rules, yes.

Since a PPL Student is training for a VFR only qualification I cannot see that they should (or could) Log any of their training flights as IFR.

Since a PPL student does not hold an instrument rating they are not permitted to fly (as PIC) under IFR but I think the implication was that the instructors (who presumably did hold IRs) were logging IFR, not the students. However, given the fact that the PPL (other than Ex 19) should be taught under VFR, it would appear that the 'instructors' are not only fraudulently claiming flight time under IFR but are also ripping off their students. Still, there are unprincipled charlatans in every profession.

Then the law is an ass!

European law certainly is, and then the UK CAA start fiddling about with it.

[Happy Wanderer]

My thoughts entirely. The fact that the practice appears to be condoned by the employer-ATOs makes it all the more bewildering, but I guess they have a vested interest in promoting PPL FIs as quickly as possible given the perceived shortage of MEIR FIs in months/years to come.

HW

[S-Works]

However, given the fact that the PPL (other than Ex 19) should be taught under VFR, it would appear that the 'instructors' are not only fraudulently claiming flight time under IFR but are also ripping off their students. Still, there are unprincipled charlatans in every profession.

I have just refused an FI(A) attendance on a IRI(A) course on these grounds.

[gnome11]

To come at this from a different angle...

As a PPL instructor who aspires to complete the IRI course in the future, and currently lacks the IFR time, how would I be best spending my time?

I do little flying other than instructing at the moment, and I am not inclined to log any of this time as IFR. I am also concious that 200hrs of IFR time in VMC is not going to make me the best IR instructor.

I am looking to make the most practical use of the few hours I log outside of my current instructing. Am I correct in saying that in the past it was possible to complete the IRI course if you had an FI and an IR?

[S-Works]

I would suggest that you actually go and log some real Instrument time. How do you expect to train a student to the required standard if you have no real experience of practicing what you intend to preach?

[Level Attitude]

Am I correct in saying that in the past it was possible to complete the IRI course if you had an FI and an IR?

Pre-EASA there was also an Experience requirement. Which was also 200 hours IFR (if I remember correctly)

However the UK CAA allowed 1 hour of IF time to be equivalent to 4 hours of IFR time. So the course could be undertaken with 50 hours IF logged, rather than 200 hours IFR logged.

This difference disappeared when EASA came in to force.

[gnome11]

that is as i understood it. And Bose, that is why i am trying to use my time flying under a hood with a friend acting as a safety pilot. If i ensure these flights conform to IFR then i can progress towards the 200hr mark whilst keeping up the instrument flying skills, if i have understood the requirements correctly.

[Cobalt]

The rule is problematic pretty much only in the UK, outside the UK it is pretty much IFR = IFR flight plan and ATC service, either required by law (e.g., Germany) or in practice (little point doing Class G uncontrolled IFR, there is no IMC rating and radio contact is mandatory, so you might as well...)


I simply stay within the spirit of the rule, as the letter of the rule is not helpful. That means


- Any flight under a Eurocontrol IFR flight plan --> IFR, regardless of met conditions. And I don't mean filing IFR for OCAS hops in VMC!


- Any flight outside controlled airspace conducted with large portions in IMC and/or weather so poor that it requires an IR --> IFR. I haven't got many of those as, being Biggin based, it tends to be better to file and fly in class A.


- Other than that, I log only actual IMC time as IFR, for example OCAS when popping through a thin layer or a cloud, and in practice I don't log that unless it is significant time. 200 hours 5 minutes at a time? not really.


- Any instrument training I receive under the hood I log as above; basically if it is an IFR sortie with departure, en-route and approach this is an IFR flight, if it is 5 minutes under the hood as part of a, say, training flight for the purpose of revalidation, only the 5 minutes if I can be bothered...


- an in particular, I do NOT log as IFR if I am teachinghave a student under the hood unless I am flying in cloud. Not sure what I would do if I had IR instructor privileges, but at that point it becomes less important...


I am sure that the above would pass muster with the authorities, and even with Bose on a day he feels especially strict... ;-)