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FIC - A Decision!

Old 5th Aug 2014, 08:40
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FIC - A Decision!

Hi,

I am new to PPrune so apologies if this has been discussed before (I am sure it has). Also if I am in the wrong forum please redirect me.

Would appreciate some advice and feedback. Been flying Gliders and usual light aircraft 15 years, 400 hours, IMC, Night etc, love flying and always had an interest in instructing. Career in Training and Management Development etc. Circumstances mean more available time now and I am considering doing an FIC course with a view to instructing freelance/part time.

Assuming I can pass the course successfully I will be 53 at that point. Critical questions for me are 1) is my age going to be a barrier and 2) are there potential opportunities for people with my age/ experience profile?

I would really appreciate your views and also hearing about the experience of others who have become instructors in similar circumstances

Many thanks
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Old 6th Aug 2014, 07:44
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To answer the questions

a) No
2) Yes

Now I'll expand.

Age is no barrier, merely an obstacle on some peoples routes to the airlines. Maturity of attitude and life experience are two things that age usually gives which is missing in many younger FI's.

Now, be careful with your choice here. As a newly minted FI you will need to work under the supervision of an un-restricted instructor and obviously that may restrict the opportunities to 'freelance'. As a CRI you are not subject to those limitations - but you are subject to others. So think carefully about what kind of teaching you actually want to do before jumping onto one course or another.
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Old 6th Aug 2014, 08:17
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As a CRI you are not subject to those limitations
If you qualify as an FI there is nothing to stop you applying for a CRI as well.

I see no mention of CPL level knowledge in the original post. Whilst you don't need it to undertake the FI Course, without it, you will only be able to teach for the LAPL which could be very limiting.
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Old 6th Aug 2014, 13:02
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I did my CPL and FI rating at age 52 after retiring from my "proper job". I had around 450 hours at the time. Age did not seem to be an issue, and the grey hair is reassuring to nervous students who assume you are a very experienced old lag.

I think some age also makes you slightly more attractive to some schools as they know you are not going to disappear as soon as you get a sniff of an airline job.

Go for it!
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Old 6th Aug 2014, 13:08
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Ps, the opportunities for freelancing are few and far between. They are non-existent if you want to teach ab initio, so it is a good idea to build a relationship with an RF or ATO which could lead to work after you qualify. If you decide not to do the CPL theory, you will be limited to LAPL only and almost useless to any school. If all you want to do is coach qualified pilots then just do the CRI.
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Old 6th Aug 2014, 13:15
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If you qualify as an FI there is nothing to stop you applying for a CRI as well.
I wanted to do this, but I was told by the CAA that I would have to do the full CRI course and test!

In my opinion, the FI certificate should contain embedded CRI privileges anyway.
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Old 6th Aug 2014, 15:48
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Thanks everybody for your comments - really helpful

It is my intention to do the CPL theory as I recognise the limitations of LAPL only.

I had assumed, wrongly it seems, that CRI privileges would be embedded in FI rating as Dobbin1 suggests they should be. So that gives me some further food for thought.

Anyway I appreciate and am encouraged by your comments. There are few situations where grey hair, of which I have enough, might actually be an advantage!

Thanks again
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Old 6th Aug 2014, 19:06
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I wouldn't be so hasty in saying that an FI without CPL knowledge is of no use to a flying school.

I know of one such instructor and he is logging about 80 hours a month at the moment.
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Old 6th Aug 2014, 19:18
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I wanted to do this, but I was told by the CAA that I would have to do the full CRI course and test!
Apply, and if they don't issue it then go for a Regulation 6 Appeal. You have done the CRI Course 10 times over whilst completing the FI Course. They can and have issued them on application.

I know of one such instructor and he is logging about 80 hours a month at the moment.
But none of those hours can be credited towards a PPL untill after LAPL training has been completed. How do you sell that to a student who may want to change streams?
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Old 7th Aug 2014, 17:54
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FIC - A Decision!

Can a "regulation 6" or any other appeal be used to show that ICAO CPL theoretical knowledge is just as good as EASA TK? Rather than the long/expensive way of signing up to an ATO for a ground school course, then paying to sit 9 (a minimum of, but more likely to do 14) written exams... Why not have a "foreign pilot" CPL written, comprising one exam with a selection of questions, for people who have already have an ICAO CPL and want to convert?
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Old 7th Aug 2014, 20:06
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Rotfl.......
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Old 7th Aug 2014, 20:30
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Can a "regulation 6" or any other appeal be used to show that ICAO CPL theoretical knowledge is just as good as EASA TK? Rather than the long/expensive way of signing up to an ATO for a ground school course
The requirement is "have met the requirement for CPL Theoretical Knowledge" - I am sure (but could be wrong) that a few months back the CAA confirmed that a holder of a non-EASA CPL or someone who had passed a non-EASA CPL Theoretical Knowledge course would be deemed to have met "the requirement"

Rotfl.......
If only I knew what R O T F L stood for I could join in the joke.
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Old 7th Aug 2014, 20:42
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Rotfl.......
If only I knew what R O T F L stood for I could join in the joke.
Rolled (ing) on the floor laughing. Depending on where you are or who you speak to. Must admit, I LMFAO'd at it too.

However, why charge one fee for one exam when you can charge 9 or 14?

A very sensible solution, though.
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Old 7th Aug 2014, 20:51
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A new FI (with CPL Knowledge) will have Privilege b) which gives the same privileges as a CRI. However, because this privilege is part of an FI rating then the restriction (requiring supervision), of Part-FCL.910, also applies.

There shouldn't be a problem applying for a stand alone CRI (if wished) on the basis of a successful FI course and test - thereby allowing immediate independent Class Instruction to Licensed pilots.

A new FI without CPL Knowledge will also be Restricted as per FCL.910, but they will also be limited, due FCL.915, to only teaching for the LAPL (which does not contain Class Ratings) - Therefore an, additional, stand alone CRI Rating would seem necessary, to me, to make this a viable Instructor Rating.

I wouldn't be so hasty in saying that an FI without CPL knowledge is of no use to a flying school.

I know of one such instructor and he is logging about 80 hours a month at the moment.
Mickey Kaye,
Interested to know what instructing this person does?

Also, as I've never seen one, how does his "LAPL Only Restriction" appear on his Licence?

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Old 8th Aug 2014, 07:16
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FIC - A Decision!

Level Attitude. Do you have any further information about this possible acceptance of ICAO theoretical knowledge instead of EASA knowledge? I would only be interested in it as far as ticking the box for a PPL FI holder without EASA TK, but with ICAO TK, to teach EASA PPLs... Not as a work around for getting a CPL.
This "non EASA CPL TK" FI of who Mickey Kaye speaks has a half dozen NPPL students (as they can teach that) and does rental/currency checkouts etc. There is NOTHING written on their licence mentioning the lack of CPL TK, and having compared this licence with a "normal" one, is no different. The bar on teaching EASA PPLs is found in CAP804.
This person also happens to be an FAA instructor (who has and can teach the FAA CPL and Instrument Rating) so it's not like they're a total noob with no knowledge beyond PPL.
Sorry for 7500-ing the thread.
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Old 8th Aug 2014, 08:26
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CRI etc.

I think several people have knocked over the age objection - I was about age 58 when I did my CPL and FI. I now combine a wee bit of flight instruction with my new career as a University Lecturer.

My advice would be to do the CRI course first.

Firstly it is the shortest and least expensive of all the licences/ratings that you need. (You do not require the CPL theoretical knowledge exam passes)

Secondly it will give you a very good insight if this is actually something that appeals to you or not.

Thirdly, done this way you can claim some credit towards your FI rating from the CAA.

And at the end of it if you decide you have better things to do with your life you still have a (very useful) rating in your flight bag.

Good Luck!
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Old 8th Aug 2014, 18:56
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There shouldn't be a problem applying for a stand alone CRI (if wished) on the basis of a successful FI course and test - thereby allowing immediate independent Class Instruction to Licensed pilots.
I have assisted several FI applicants to do exactly this upon application for their FI(R).

There is NOTHING written on their licence mentioning the lack of CPL TK, and having compared this licence with a "normal" one, is no different.
It should have been annotated "(a) LAPL only", and without (b) privileges.

Do you have any further information about this possible acceptance of ICAO theoretical knowledge instead of EASA knowledge?
The CAA won't accept your ICAO theoretical knowledge (yet), but they will currently accept your previous experience to issue you a FI certificate without restriction. CAP 804, Section 4, Part q, Subpart 2, page 4.

ifitaint...

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Old 8th Aug 2014, 20:09
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FIC - A Decision!

Yet..? Meaning what exactly, as I've heard that there may potentially be an oral exam as part of the skills test for CPL in the near future where ICAO CPL holders "converting" to EASA can demonstrate knowledge instead of 14 exam passes?
How about in other EASA member states? Or is it just the UK CAA's interpretation and rule that it must be EASA knowledge?! So maybe a bit of EASA shopping around might simplify the workload and allow a more pragmatic approach?
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Old 8th Aug 2014, 23:36
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It should have been annotated "(a) LAPL only", and without (b) privileges.
That is what I would have expected.
it's not like they're a total noob with no knowledge beyond PPL
An aircraft doesn't fly any differently depending on the qualifications of an Instructor so I don't think competency is an issue - but they (or their students) could come unstuck in a legalistic/bureaucratic sense if they do Instruct outside their privileges.

Personal Opinion:
Currency Checks (even on a PPL+SEP holder) where nothing gets taught that is outside the LAPL syllabus would be OK as an 'appropriate' Instructor Rating is held.

No Instruction of a (PPL+) SEP holder can be counted, by the SEP holder, towards the hours required for "Revalidation by Experience" of their SEP Rating as Privilege b), which expressly allows this Instruction, is not held.
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Old 10th Aug 2014, 09:14
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FIC - A Decision!

If the CPL requirement for an instructor comes from ICAO, then why isn't ICAO knowledge accepted?

My understanding is that ALL FIs have the exact same privileges, with the exception that one without CPL TK cannot teach an EASA PPL, and can only teach LAPL/NPPL only.

There is nothing in CAP804 to state otherwise, and the course content/testing for all FI candidates doesn't discriminate between whether they hold CPL TK or not. Everyone does the course, passes the FI skills test etc, then goes on to instruct. There isn't one FI course for CPL TK passes people, and one for everyone else, likewise with the skills-test.
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