Would you fail these blokes who landed in the manner as shown in this video
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Would you fail these blokes who landed in the manner as shown in this video
Watch these landings at BHX :
I?ve Never Seen Anything Like This.. Scary Take Off And Landings, WOW. | PetFlow Blog - The most interesting news for pet parents around the world.
Years ago a good friend was failed in a sim crosswind landing check because the checker claimed that he did not fully decrab, leaving some residual drift thus giving rise to a rough landing. The sim then was an old sim, a first generation B777 sim which did not record all drift parameters except that if the drift was beyond tolerance, it would register the excursion as a crash.
In this friend's case, the sim did not register any crash. It would also register an over g hard landing as a crash. There was no record or indication of a crash. When challenged to show any print out that it registered any crash, the checker couldn't produce any. It was the checker's anal and adamant assertion that it was his call that it was a fail due to his perception of a hard landing because of residual drift and crab angle!
Now to add insult to injury, that particular airline's training division is now recommending that crab should not be totally removed! It now tells pilots to keep at least 5-8 degrees of crab!!! What utter CRAP! I have retired and am no longer current with Boeing FCTM, but I think this pose some very interesting arguments wrt crosswind landings.
I?ve Never Seen Anything Like This.. Scary Take Off And Landings, WOW. | PetFlow Blog - The most interesting news for pet parents around the world.
Years ago a good friend was failed in a sim crosswind landing check because the checker claimed that he did not fully decrab, leaving some residual drift thus giving rise to a rough landing. The sim then was an old sim, a first generation B777 sim which did not record all drift parameters except that if the drift was beyond tolerance, it would register the excursion as a crash.
In this friend's case, the sim did not register any crash. It would also register an over g hard landing as a crash. There was no record or indication of a crash. When challenged to show any print out that it registered any crash, the checker couldn't produce any. It was the checker's anal and adamant assertion that it was his call that it was a fail due to his perception of a hard landing because of residual drift and crab angle!
Now to add insult to injury, that particular airline's training division is now recommending that crab should not be totally removed! It now tells pilots to keep at least 5-8 degrees of crab!!! What utter CRAP! I have retired and am no longer current with Boeing FCTM, but I think this pose some very interesting arguments wrt crosswind landings.
Last edited by Chuck Canuck; 16th May 2014 at 20:35. Reason: Typo and clarification
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Landing in the crab is a recommended technique for a wet/contaminated runway.
If you are downwind of the centreline then leaving a little crab on is no bad thing. It makes the landing a little more noticeable however I would always refer back to the basic reason for checks, are you safe to operate the aircraft? Was the aircraft operated within its limitations? Simulators are notorious for poor representation of handling characteristics at landing, stall, outside the envelope etc. new technology is coming although it's not cheap.
Failing someone for a rough landing sounds like rubbish to me, a bit like guys teaching to power out of stalls.....
If you are downwind of the centreline then leaving a little crab on is no bad thing. It makes the landing a little more noticeable however I would always refer back to the basic reason for checks, are you safe to operate the aircraft? Was the aircraft operated within its limitations? Simulators are notorious for poor representation of handling characteristics at landing, stall, outside the envelope etc. new technology is coming although it's not cheap.
Failing someone for a rough landing sounds like rubbish to me, a bit like guys teaching to power out of stalls.....
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Yes, I would fail them. And command that they be sent back to basic flying school. The video is available on youtube under other titles. The level of skill demonstrated by many of those scenes as ****n tragic.
It's a sad statement on the skill of pilots flying large jets that they can't handle crosswinds that are within the limits of the plane.
It's a sad statement on the skill of pilots flying large jets that they can't handle crosswinds that are within the limits of the plane.
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It's not the pilot's fault. Its the system brought about by " The magenta Line " culture which is responsible.
Many Pilots lack basic fling skills, Instructors themselves very often don't have these skills to begin with having been trained in schools focussing on instruments and procedures.
To be able to land with a crosswind requires the ability to not only decrab, but to be able to cross the controls in a coordinated slip wing down with opposite rudder to counter drift and keep runway centerline. Youtube is loaded with videos with hard skewed landings due to lack of reaction other than flaring from crews.
The old school is gone, and the industry is not interested in fostering stick and rudder , fortunately there are still some "Aviator" pilots when not involved in their system management activities who carry on with their passion flying small aircraft..
Many Pilots lack basic fling skills, Instructors themselves very often don't have these skills to begin with having been trained in schools focussing on instruments and procedures.
To be able to land with a crosswind requires the ability to not only decrab, but to be able to cross the controls in a coordinated slip wing down with opposite rudder to counter drift and keep runway centerline. Youtube is loaded with videos with hard skewed landings due to lack of reaction other than flaring from crews.
The old school is gone, and the industry is not interested in fostering stick and rudder , fortunately there are still some "Aviator" pilots when not involved in their system management activities who carry on with their passion flying small aircraft..
Last edited by markkal; 17th May 2014 at 13:32.
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I'm sorry but anyone flying jets will know wing down is not sensible and gives less crosswind capability than crab methods. It Is highly likely to cause a pod strike.
Also landing with some crab is not by any means dangerous or damaging. Like I said above it is a recommended procedure for wet/contaminated runways.
Also landing with some crab is not by any means dangerous or damaging. Like I said above it is a recommended procedure for wet/contaminated runways.
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The failure isn't the landing; it's the being there in the first place. I don't know what the wind was, but the gust factor looks horrendous. If it's that bad, go somewhere else. "A superior pilot is one who....etc.
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Easy to say on the ground with allthe time in the world. I have been there with crap weather at your destination and alternates, everyone is diverting, fuel is reducing every minute. Add to that a missed approach/windshear escape and a runway that is in limits becomes very inviting.
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like harry O I think the video shows some impressive flying in atrocious conditions.
nobody scraped a pod, nobody broke anything.
it does show why aircraft operators can never relax on the maintenance though.
I wouldn't fail any of them.
...thank heavens I wasn't there on the day.
nobody scraped a pod, nobody broke anything.
it does show why aircraft operators can never relax on the maintenance though.
I wouldn't fail any of them.
...thank heavens I wasn't there on the day.
I'm sorry but anyone flying jets will know wing down is not sensible and gives less crosswind capability than crab methods. It Is highly likely to cause a pod strike.
The Boeing 757/767 autopilot gives a very polished demonstration of the technique. It is worth striving to imitate it.
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On the T-7 for over 10 years. Did a line check on a bloke some years ago who landed in a 25-30kts crosswind without removing the crab...it felt like a massive cruncher. He was ashen faced and thought that was the end of the world. I cooly told him nothing to it but he was still mighty worried.
To ease his mind told him to write it up in the maintenance log and get the techies to check. True enough the techies came back with a report of 1.47vertical G and a sideload of 0.66... no drama.
The T-7 has a long wheel base with 3 pairs of wheels on the MLG...the geometry of a crosswind landing without decrab on touchdown gives rise to moments/torques that make the landing seem very bad than it actually is. Guys who have not physically flown a T-7 will go all pale as ghosts when that happens, especially those simmers who only qualify as experts in the box.
To ease his mind told him to write it up in the maintenance log and get the techies to check. True enough the techies came back with a report of 1.47vertical G and a sideload of 0.66... no drama.
The T-7 has a long wheel base with 3 pairs of wheels on the MLG...the geometry of a crosswind landing without decrab on touchdown gives rise to moments/torques that make the landing seem very bad than it actually is. Guys who have not physically flown a T-7 will go all pale as ghosts when that happens, especially those simmers who only qualify as experts in the box.
Last edited by totempole; 19th May 2014 at 09:46. Reason: Typo
On the T-7 for over 10 years. Did a line check on a bloke some years ago who landed in a 25-30kts crosswind without removing the crab...it felt like a massive cruncher. He was ashen faced and thought that was the end of the world. I cooly told him nothing to it but he was still mighty worried.
