Would you fail these blokes who landed in the manner as shown in this video
It is only a valid technique for those capable of carrying it out smoothly and with a considerable amount of last-moment expert timing - usually acquired after many heart-stopping moments along the way.
The RAF has to carry a lot of the blame for its widespread use - but finesse is not a priority for fast jets and passengers rarely have a choice of carrier.
The use of the words like "Kick off drift" should have no place in the lexicon of a professional pilot. (Try sitting in row 40+ when someone applies an agricultural amount of boot).
The single most serious disadvantage of the last-moment-decrab is that, if misjudged, it can leave the aircraft drifting downwind. Any subsequent panic push can cause a nose-wheel-first touchdown which is likely to cause serious damage.
The RAF has to carry a lot of the blame for its widespread use - but finesse is not a priority for fast jets and passengers rarely have a choice of carrier.
The use of the words like "Kick off drift" should have no place in the lexicon of a professional pilot. (Try sitting in row 40+ when someone applies an agricultural amount of boot).
The single most serious disadvantage of the last-moment-decrab is that, if misjudged, it can leave the aircraft drifting downwind. Any subsequent panic push can cause a nose-wheel-first touchdown which is likely to cause serious damage.
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Seen a lot of crosswind landings on YouTube. Virtually everyone "kicks the drift off" after MLG touchdown, prior to nose wheel touchdown.
It was nice to see the RYR boys in the linked video get it right; go around after a gust, nice decrab to land on second approach.
It was nice to see the RYR boys in the linked video get it right; go around after a gust, nice decrab to land on second approach.
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nick14
if you strike the pod on a DC9/MD80, you have more problems than you can think of.
now, nick. anyone who flys jets knows enough not to make a hard and fast rule like you tried to foist on us.
good luck nick
kicking off drift? RAF?
scotbil, you can call it what you like. the proof of the pudding is in the eating, the proof of the landing is being able to re use the plane right away!
if you strike the pod on a DC9/MD80, you have more problems than you can think of.
now, nick. anyone who flys jets knows enough not to make a hard and fast rule like you tried to foist on us.
good luck nick
kicking off drift? RAF?
scotbil, you can call it what you like. the proof of the pudding is in the eating, the proof of the landing is being able to re use the plane right away!
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Given the conditions,they all did well. The really wild approaches were thrown away.No aircraft were broken.Nobody ways injured.What's not to like? The camera wildly distorted the deviations from the centreline making for a great entertainment.Loved it!
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I am sure you have all seen the B777 test flight landing in crosswinds...I bet you it was more than the 1.47G /0.66 sideG cruncher mentioned by totempole. Did the aircraft go to the scrapheap after that ?
Passenger comfort problem with a 1.47G thump? Do you want to spoil passengers all the time with greasers after greasers even if it may mean hydroplaning or running out of runway at least SOME of the times?
Passenger comfort problem with a 1.47G thump? Do you want to spoil passengers all the time with greasers after greasers even if it may mean hydroplaning or running out of runway at least SOME of the times?
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ortotrotel...not wanting to be presumptive, but not making to the big league is no reason to hold resentment against guys are now pedalling big shiny jets! I have trained some guys who hold exactly the same views as you have when they were on the commuters, but when they came onto training on the biggies their performance in crosswind landings were just as " dismal " at best. Been there, done that and a bruised ego to boot!
Passenger comfort problem with a 1.47G thump? Do you want to spoil passengers all the time with greasers after greasers even if it may mean hydroplaning or running out of runway at least SOME of the times?
The professional pilot should be able to carry out a controlled touchdown in the maximum permitted Xwind with due regard to runway conditions without frightening the passengers.
The unfortunate pilot on the 1.47G thump was right to be ashen-faced. But you can only criticise an experienced pilot if you can tell him why it went wrong and, more importantly, what he can do to make it better.
Artie Fufkin - did it occur to you that the reason so many landings end up on social media is that the technique used was the last-moment de-crab!
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Decrab
For the Bus, the recommend technic is to crab. At least that's what the FCTM NO-170 P 4/18 FCTM
LATERAL AND DIRECTIONAL CONTROL FINAL APPROACH In crosswind conditions, a crabbed-approach wings-level should be flown with the aircraft (cockpit) positioned on the extended runway centerline until the flare. FLARE The objectives of the lateral and directional control of the aircraft during the flare are: • To land on the centerline, and • to minimize the lateral loads on the main landing gear. The recommended de-crab technique is to use all of the following: • The rudder to align the aircraft with the runway heading during the flare. • The roll control, if needed, to maintain the aircraft on the runway centerline. Any tendency to drift downwind should be counteracted by an appropriate lateral (roll) input on the sidestick. In the case of strong crosswind, in the de-crab phase, the PF should be prepared to add small bank angle into the wind in order to maintain the aircraft on the runway centerline. The aircraft may be landed with a partial de-crab (residual crab angle up to about 5 °) to prevent excessive bank. This technique prevents wingtip (or engine nacelle) strike caused by an excessive bank.
By the way, those guys on the video have done a hell of a job. I would have passed them all
LATERAL AND DIRECTIONAL CONTROL FINAL APPROACH In crosswind conditions, a crabbed-approach wings-level should be flown with the aircraft (cockpit) positioned on the extended runway centerline until the flare. FLARE The objectives of the lateral and directional control of the aircraft during the flare are: • To land on the centerline, and • to minimize the lateral loads on the main landing gear. The recommended de-crab technique is to use all of the following: • The rudder to align the aircraft with the runway heading during the flare. • The roll control, if needed, to maintain the aircraft on the runway centerline. Any tendency to drift downwind should be counteracted by an appropriate lateral (roll) input on the sidestick. In the case of strong crosswind, in the de-crab phase, the PF should be prepared to add small bank angle into the wind in order to maintain the aircraft on the runway centerline. The aircraft may be landed with a partial de-crab (residual crab angle up to about 5 °) to prevent excessive bank. This technique prevents wingtip (or engine nacelle) strike caused by an excessive bank.
By the way, those guys on the video have done a hell of a job. I would have passed them all
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Just for the record, look at (a) the obviously extremely bad conditions prevailing on the day and, (b) the wicked distortion from the camera that is in play. BHxs runway isnt really like the north sea in a storm force 9 (yet it appears so) and aeroplanes dont really 'hover' as the camera would have you believe. There is some terrific foreshortening effect distorting how things appear here and is making things look a lot different from how they probably were. A wicked day with some valiant attempts, a few good go around decisions and undoubtedley a white knuckle or two.......speaking as somebody who has been there many times in those conditions. Any landing in those gusty conditions is going to be, at best, agricultural.
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A lot of tosh here written by Flight Simulator "Captains" or fair weather GA pilots at best. Last 2 posts are spot on. These landings would almost certainly be Captains only do you think they got into that seat without a thorough understanding of correct technique and being able to display it in various training scenarios in the sim and on the line?
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Forgive me as I'm not a qualified pilot (just nebbing in here), but as a routine passenger from BHX I'm mightily impressed with the skill shown by all of the pilots in the video. I'd happily fly with any of 'em!
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Did a line check on a kick ass high and mighty bellicose ex-check airman from NRT-KIX-NRT. As we were sitting at the holding point RW 16L, there was a fairly strong X-W of 20-35 kts, and a few aircrafts landed awkwardly. This chap on the LHS was smirking and making disparanging remarks about those landings to his copilot and yours truly. I kept my peace and watched his not too tidy lift-off later.
A fairly routine turn round back at KIX back to NRT. First officer's leg back to NRT...unfortunately the winds remaiined across both strips at NRT at 30-40kts; he opted to take over from the no.1 Lined up for the long 16R, the gusts did give him some nice PIOs. As he decrabbed near flare, a gust took him awkwardly and we ended up with a cruncher slamming down on the downwind gear first. It was a such quick drop like a rock that my suggestion that he go around was not even completed that we had already crunched onto the tarmac and he had the reversers out ...now we were committed to a full stop landing. It was the most silent taxi trip to the ramp, you could hear every hiss and wisp of the airflow through the cockpit air louvres! Just after shutdown I suggested a PA to the pax....well he did mumbled something about the winds, the winds, the gusty winds!!!
You should have seen that skygod turned into a clay foot dodo, the embarrassed yet intransigent attempts to explain away that " disaster ". Well I have seen many disasters like that on line operations as well as the sim. I guess I had a couple of such disasters myself. Well, a short debrief with a poor pass grade for the skipper, and an unfortunate incomplete check for the F/O. Nothing much to say...they all knew what the **** it was. My gripe was he did not go around, but the maintenance came back that the touchdown was within limits according to the QAR. Fail him? Nah, it was a lousy landing but not unsafe nor dangerous. Potentially risky? Possibily but all things have their risk potentials.
I went to the hotel and SLEPT WELL. But I doubt that skygod did!
A fairly routine turn round back at KIX back to NRT. First officer's leg back to NRT...unfortunately the winds remaiined across both strips at NRT at 30-40kts; he opted to take over from the no.1 Lined up for the long 16R, the gusts did give him some nice PIOs. As he decrabbed near flare, a gust took him awkwardly and we ended up with a cruncher slamming down on the downwind gear first. It was a such quick drop like a rock that my suggestion that he go around was not even completed that we had already crunched onto the tarmac and he had the reversers out ...now we were committed to a full stop landing. It was the most silent taxi trip to the ramp, you could hear every hiss and wisp of the airflow through the cockpit air louvres! Just after shutdown I suggested a PA to the pax....well he did mumbled something about the winds, the winds, the gusty winds!!!
You should have seen that skygod turned into a clay foot dodo, the embarrassed yet intransigent attempts to explain away that " disaster ". Well I have seen many disasters like that on line operations as well as the sim. I guess I had a couple of such disasters myself. Well, a short debrief with a poor pass grade for the skipper, and an unfortunate incomplete check for the F/O. Nothing much to say...they all knew what the **** it was. My gripe was he did not go around, but the maintenance came back that the touchdown was within limits according to the QAR. Fail him? Nah, it was a lousy landing but not unsafe nor dangerous. Potentially risky? Possibily but all things have their risk potentials.
I went to the hotel and SLEPT WELL. But I doubt that skygod did!
