FTE Jerez Instructor Recruitment
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Integrated ATO's a viewpoint
IMHO The problems with these integrated schools are manifold and many. However, these are not unique to the Flight Training Industry at the entry level
1. In the first place their overheads are high as regulators require numerous mandatory post holders and these highly paid persons do little else to contribute to the productivity of the business because of the reluctance of large organisations to multi-skill personnel as many jobs could be done in conjunction with others. Examples are Senior Personnel being reluctant to sully their hands at the coal face. I recall at another well known ATO some years ago that while the primary Instructors were working hard, one individual in “standards” managed only to fly 40 hours in 12 months! It was common knowledge that his skills at computer games were improved at the expense of a good salary and the rest of the work force. There are these kinds of people who seem adept at avoiding real work are common to all organisations and this consequently leads to resentment among the core labour force.
2. Accountants with little experience or knowledge of the core business of the enterprise make poor CEO’s as they lack the vision to move the company forward and innovate (think about people like Steve Jobs who was not an accountant). I would also say that in the main pilots do not make good CEO’s either (perhaps with the exception of people like Walsh of BA). Ideally a mix of good leadership skills, clear understanding of the core business with vision whilst maintaining a keen eye on the bottom line is essential in any industry. It is little wonder that in Germany that CEO’s are Engineers and Professionals, not accountants!
3. Unfortunately these large ATO’s seem to think they can enhance their image by the amount and value of executive company cars and associated perks. Large and well paid Marketing Departments and a good sprinkling of exotically named executives like: “Director of Strategic BS”, “Director of Media Spin” seem de rigueur in today’s industry.
4. The cost of operating some of these ATO’s is such that the temptation is for companies to engage in Ponzi type practices as was seen by likes of the late unlamented Scabair. Like those who get suckered in by Ponzi schemes are they are same poor suckers and their parents who will sacrifice hard earned cash for a dream that may not be matched by reality in the market place of Aviation jobs. It is little wonder that only a small proportion of “wannabees” ever succeed to making a lifetime, well-paid, success in an aviation career. The whole ethos of these integrated ATO’s is based on a significant through-put of people to fund the operation whilst providing poor quality training and education. Only those who are well-connected or exceptionally dedicated and driven will gain subsequent employment and rewards that bear a relation to the cost outlay. It is little wonder that training Captains are lamenting the poor quality of knowledge and piloting skills by persons being trained by these much vaunted ATO’s. Even in my own experience I have come across such people, have not made the cut for an Airline job come to become FI’s where the lack of knowledge, situational awareness and fundamental understanding is such that I have seen better in humble PPL’s.
In summary all these ATO’s will have improve productivity and provide a better education instead of the apparent common denominator to just churn out flight crew fodder for maximum profit at the lowest cost. If they do not they will not survive in the modern world. Or perhaps I am wrong, but any organisation that is striving to do this properly has a better chance of surviving than those who seem to exist due to a previous brand name and marketing hype and continuous takeover’s by large corporate conglomerates. Where this leaves FTE I cannot comment, but the adage “adapt or die” has serious implication for all of them.
1. In the first place their overheads are high as regulators require numerous mandatory post holders and these highly paid persons do little else to contribute to the productivity of the business because of the reluctance of large organisations to multi-skill personnel as many jobs could be done in conjunction with others. Examples are Senior Personnel being reluctant to sully their hands at the coal face. I recall at another well known ATO some years ago that while the primary Instructors were working hard, one individual in “standards” managed only to fly 40 hours in 12 months! It was common knowledge that his skills at computer games were improved at the expense of a good salary and the rest of the work force. There are these kinds of people who seem adept at avoiding real work are common to all organisations and this consequently leads to resentment among the core labour force.
2. Accountants with little experience or knowledge of the core business of the enterprise make poor CEO’s as they lack the vision to move the company forward and innovate (think about people like Steve Jobs who was not an accountant). I would also say that in the main pilots do not make good CEO’s either (perhaps with the exception of people like Walsh of BA). Ideally a mix of good leadership skills, clear understanding of the core business with vision whilst maintaining a keen eye on the bottom line is essential in any industry. It is little wonder that in Germany that CEO’s are Engineers and Professionals, not accountants!
3. Unfortunately these large ATO’s seem to think they can enhance their image by the amount and value of executive company cars and associated perks. Large and well paid Marketing Departments and a good sprinkling of exotically named executives like: “Director of Strategic BS”, “Director of Media Spin” seem de rigueur in today’s industry.
4. The cost of operating some of these ATO’s is such that the temptation is for companies to engage in Ponzi type practices as was seen by likes of the late unlamented Scabair. Like those who get suckered in by Ponzi schemes are they are same poor suckers and their parents who will sacrifice hard earned cash for a dream that may not be matched by reality in the market place of Aviation jobs. It is little wonder that only a small proportion of “wannabees” ever succeed to making a lifetime, well-paid, success in an aviation career. The whole ethos of these integrated ATO’s is based on a significant through-put of people to fund the operation whilst providing poor quality training and education. Only those who are well-connected or exceptionally dedicated and driven will gain subsequent employment and rewards that bear a relation to the cost outlay. It is little wonder that training Captains are lamenting the poor quality of knowledge and piloting skills by persons being trained by these much vaunted ATO’s. Even in my own experience I have come across such people, have not made the cut for an Airline job come to become FI’s where the lack of knowledge, situational awareness and fundamental understanding is such that I have seen better in humble PPL’s.
In summary all these ATO’s will have improve productivity and provide a better education instead of the apparent common denominator to just churn out flight crew fodder for maximum profit at the lowest cost. If they do not they will not survive in the modern world. Or perhaps I am wrong, but any organisation that is striving to do this properly has a better chance of surviving than those who seem to exist due to a previous brand name and marketing hype and continuous takeover’s by large corporate conglomerates. Where this leaves FTE I cannot comment, but the adage “adapt or die” has serious implication for all of them.
Join Date: May 2001
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The business model also seems to be set up in alot of places to take into account a military pension also being paid.
It seems to me there just are not the same number of these chaps coming into the industry.
Also as well I think the MPL was a attempt to break away from the dependence on light aircraft. But the requirement for it to be taken in conjunction with an airline has screwed things up somewhat as the schools need 2-3 times more fresh meat through the door than there are jobs available. And as there isn't enough market for it they are stuck with the expensive twins.
It seems to me there just are not the same number of these chaps coming into the industry.
Also as well I think the MPL was a attempt to break away from the dependence on light aircraft. But the requirement for it to be taken in conjunction with an airline has screwed things up somewhat as the schools need 2-3 times more fresh meat through the door than there are jobs available. And as there isn't enough market for it they are stuck with the expensive twins.
Join Date: Apr 2014
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I agree with most of the comments porridge made with the exception of number 4. Despite the efforts (or lack of) on the part of management, the quality of training has not slipped at FTE and the overall standard of graduates is as good as it ever was. Of course there will be exceptions but fortunately, despite the turnover in staff and their understandable resentment of the way they are being treated, in general it has not affected training standards.
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It was a general comment.
And to be honest they are not the same as 10 years go and this is the same for Oxford as well. The rot set in for them when they started the sep training in the states and dropped further when they started using in house IR examiners.
Its the industry problem of training for test with the assumption that they are going to an EFIS automated cockpit. Also the using of persudo airline pish when flying SEP and light twin. This then nuggets them up when they have to be able to fly something that requires some hand foot skills with PIC skills to boot.
A DME arc procedure is not some mythical entity which never occurs. They should be able to fly one without a FMC with circular nav.
And to be honest they are not the same as 10 years go and this is the same for Oxford as well. The rot set in for them when they started the sep training in the states and dropped further when they started using in house IR examiners.
Its the industry problem of training for test with the assumption that they are going to an EFIS automated cockpit. Also the using of persudo airline pish when flying SEP and light twin. This then nuggets them up when they have to be able to fly something that requires some hand foot skills with PIC skills to boot.
A DME arc procedure is not some mythical entity which never occurs. They should be able to fly one without a FMC with circular nav.
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In response to Mach 1.1 comment on my Point 4, I was not referring to FTE. I trained 2 FTE grads as FI’s a couple of years back an there were a cut above in terms of their knowledge compared with 2 from an ATO who does training in a sunny, dry place in the US. At least they knew their way around UK airspace or cottoned on to it quicker that the aforementioned other two.
However, very recently I took on board a grad from the other place for an FI rating and his fundamental basic PPL knowledge was appalling. His general handling was adequate but his situation awareness and basic operating in UK VFR was completely lacking. When he remarked that all the flying he had done in the UK was IR; I asked him some questions about choosing alternates and LVP’s and he hadn’t a clue. Sic: “the Alternates on the IR Flight Plans are standard and filed by Ops”!
I suggested, in concurrence with our HoT, that he would be better served by getting to grips with basic PPL knowledge and some currency on VFR flying in the UK before returning to the course. When he later went to another place to do his FIC course the FIC Instructor there came to the same conclusions as I did.
Hence my generic comments about the general trend of Integrated ATO towards lowered standards not specifically FTE.
However, very recently I took on board a grad from the other place for an FI rating and his fundamental basic PPL knowledge was appalling. His general handling was adequate but his situation awareness and basic operating in UK VFR was completely lacking. When he remarked that all the flying he had done in the UK was IR; I asked him some questions about choosing alternates and LVP’s and he hadn’t a clue. Sic: “the Alternates on the IR Flight Plans are standard and filed by Ops”!
I suggested, in concurrence with our HoT, that he would be better served by getting to grips with basic PPL knowledge and some currency on VFR flying in the UK before returning to the course. When he later went to another place to do his FIC course the FIC Instructor there came to the same conclusions as I did.
Hence my generic comments about the general trend of Integrated ATO towards lowered standards not specifically FTE.
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Join Date: Jun 2012
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I see FTE are recruiting for Flight Instructors and Ground Instructors again. It must cost them more in advertising and HR set up costs than some of the salaries per year.
I guess after what has been said before, some are on the move or have already left.
Rest assured, after what has been mentioned previously, I shall not be re-applying.
The sand pit, whilst not being everyone's taste does pay better and I am being looked after and feel I'm wanted.
Good luck to all future potential instructors in Jerez.
I guess after what has been said before, some are on the move or have already left.
Rest assured, after what has been mentioned previously, I shall not be re-applying.
The sand pit, whilst not being everyone's taste does pay better and I am being looked after and feel I'm wanted.
Good luck to all future potential instructors in Jerez.
Join Date: Mar 2014
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Had a couple of days in Jerez a few weeks ago for the Feria (annual week long booze up). Caught up with a few old friends. Mood was very sombre, as expected, a lot of guys refusing to sign the new contracts and intending to leave but worried they won't get a redundancy pay off.
GI's leaving faster than they can be replaced.
Quality of training must be suffering.
Shame - used to be a great place.
GI's leaving faster than they can be replaced.
Quality of training must be suffering.
Shame - used to be a great place.
Very sad to read this thread. I was a flying instructor there during the set up and first year of operation in 2001. I had 2 student who needed 2 training events per day and I had two Warriors. There were more aircraft than students most days.
Four full time engineers and a really well run Ops department, spare briefing rooms aplenty and an atmosphere not dissimilar to a UAS. Strong leadership, high morale and plenty of banter. It was a great place to be an instructor or a student.
WWW
Four full time engineers and a really well run Ops department, spare briefing rooms aplenty and an atmosphere not dissimilar to a UAS. Strong leadership, high morale and plenty of banter. It was a great place to be an instructor or a student.
WWW
Join Date: Aug 1999
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IMHO quite a lot of changes for the better. But then again I was happy enough last year.... Which means I must have had an agenda. Or something like that!
IMHO if considering going to FTE the issues are more about moving to Spain versus your personal circumstances (tax, schooling, spouse employment) than FTE itself.
Pb
IMHO if considering going to FTE the issues are more about moving to Spain versus your personal circumstances (tax, schooling, spouse employment) than FTE itself.
Pb
Join Date: Apr 2000
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Scrolling through various articles, this 53-year old pilot wishing, no, going to return to aviation stumbled across the possibility of becoming a ground instructor in Jerez. Wife fluent Spanish - I can order beer, fries and hookers - kids left home, mortgage almost paid off. There's me thinking about moving to Spain for a few years.
Then stumbled across this old thread. Anyone any updates or have you all moved on?
All the best
BB
Then stumbled across this old thread. Anyone any updates or have you all moved on?
All the best
BB
Join Date: Dec 2015
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If the integrated and mpl students skills are so low, why do airline recruit them over modular students ?
I know that recruiters generally dont care about technical skills, but it should only be to a certain extent..
I know that recruiters generally dont care about technical skills, but it should only be to a certain extent..
Join Date: Sep 2005
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I hear nearly everyday from line training captains I work with that they generally find modular guys preferable to integrated! Reasons they give are greater ability to think for themselves (they have often had jobs before and are more mature) hand in hand with maturity the ability to hold a conversation, and they say they often have a higher situational awareness and better airmanship due to not being spoon fed. I believe the integrated product is preferred by hr, as it's easy. Hr depts are very lazy world wide now, and always prefer to use agency's in whatever industry, and the integrated product with the shiney marketing leaflets fool everyone.
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I hear nearly everyday from line training captains I work with that they generally find modular guys preferable to integrated! Reasons they give are greater ability to think for themselves (they have often had jobs before and are more mature) hand in hand with maturity the ability to hold a conversation, and they say they often have a higher situational awareness and better airmanship due to not being spoon fed. I believe the integrated product is preferred by hr, as it's easy. Hr depts are very lazy world wide now, and always prefer to use agency's in whatever industry, and the integrated product with the shiney marketing leaflets fool everyone.
The other aspect is that the modular training is longer (even if you could do almost as fast as integrated) so simply the person has been flying longer !
Even though I've seen it in at least two different fields, I'm still amazed at the importance that HR people give to recruiting people based on anything BUT their technical/real ability for the job.
However, I've come to the conclusion that, as of today, being recruited will always be more challenging than being up to the task after being recruited...
So in the end, since we only want to be recruited, we should choose integrated training...
Do you reckon one modular student could save the date by training at a CTC/OAA/FTE ?
Paying the extra price for the extra reputation that HR seems to need.
